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16:37:14 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:37:14 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:37:14 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:37:14 <ivan> Date: 2018-12-17
16:37:14 <ivan> Regrets+ luc, yanni
16:37:14 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Dec/0082.html
16:37:14 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-12-17: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Dec/0082.html
16:40:26 <ivan> regrets+ JuanCorona
16:41:41 <ivan> regrets+ vlad
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17:02:05 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-12-10-pwg.html
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17:02:32 <George> present+ George
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17:03:37 <wendyreid> zakim, pick a victim
17:03:37 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose CHayes
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17:04:00 <lsullam> present+
17:04:02 <garth> present+ Garth
17:04:04 <wendyreid> zakim, pick a victim
17:04:04 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dauwhe
17:04:05 <rkwright> present+
17:04:22 <CHayes> haven't attended enough meetings to scribe yet!
17:05:05 <franco> present+
17:05:06 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
17:05:11 <wendyreid> scribenick: George
17:05:17 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-12-10-pwg.html
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17:05:27 <duga> present+
17:05:29 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes approved
17:05:38 <George> Approved last week minutes
17:05:42 <Avneesh> present+
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17:06:10 <George> Should the WG publish a draft of WP spec?
17:06:32 <dauwhe> q+
17:06:59 <George> Two ideas to have a resolution in the meeting, or to send an email out for approval.
17:07:10 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
17:07:38 <George> Dave, we should destinguish between editors drafts, which can be done any time.
17:07:52 <George> However, for a WG draft we should have a resolution.
17:07:53 <wolfgang> s/destinguish/distinguish/
17:08:01 <wendyreid> s/Dave,/Dave:/
17:08:05 <George> In this case it should be a retroactive draft.
17:08:20 <CharlesL> present+
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17:08:30 <mateus> present+
17:08:36 <derekjackson> present+
17:08:48 <wendyreid> Resolution: Approve the publishing of the recent draft of December 2018
17:08:56 <garth> +1
17:08:56 <timCole> +1
17:08:59 <bigbluehat> +1
17:08:59 <ivan> +1
17:09:00 <dkaplan3> +1
17:09:00 <josh> +1
17:09:00 <wolfgang> +1
17:09:01 <JunGamo> +1
17:09:02 <mateus> +1
17:09:10 <EvanOwens> +1
17:09:11 <BenSchroeter> +1
17:09:16 <George> If any objects, let us know. It is approved.
17:09:18 <ivan> Resolved: Approve the publishing of the recent draft of December 2018
17:09:37 <marisa> present+
17:09:42 <George> In the future we will mention in the meeting before for the WG resolution.
17:10:30 <George> Tzviya is here.
17:10:58 <ivan> Topic: Entry page and the vanilla browser
17:11:13 <George> The entry page and what that means in a vinally browser.
17:11:30 <George> The entry page needs to open in any user agent.
17:11:35 <wolfgang> s/vinally/vanilla/
17:11:48 <George> More advanced features would need other supported affordances.
17:12:19 <George> We want to make sure we are all of one mind. We are talking about a user agent with no additions.
17:12:35 <wolfgang> s/The entry page/Tzviya: The entry page/
17:12:52 <dkaplan3> q+
17:12:59 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
17:13:03 <Avneesh> +1 entry page should open in browser
17:13:05 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:13:10 <dauwhe> q+
17:13:23 <dauwhe> q-
17:13:35 <George> Deborah: To make it clear, it needs to function in a standard agent that is not WP aware.
17:13:36 <dauwhe> q+
17:13:41 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:13:56 <George> Dave: Are we envisioning additional requirement here?
17:14:26 <George> We say that the address must resolve to a document that has an embedded document.
17:14:35 <dkaplan3> language proposal: 'Standards-compliant user agent that is not WP-aware (henceforth "minimal browser")'
17:14:39 <ivan> q+
17:14:47 <garth> s/We/… We/
17:14:49 <mgarrish> q+
17:14:50 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:14:57 <garth> q?
17:14:58 <dkaplan3> q+
17:15:03 <George> Are we saying the document must be able to access other documents in the publication.
17:15:29 <George> Ivan: No, the only thing we can say is that the author has the possibility can do it.
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17:15:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:15:52 <wolfgang> s/can do/to do/
17:15:59 <George> However, we cannot say that the other pages may not be meaning ful to the browser.
17:16:23 <wolfgang> s/meaning ful/meaningful/
17:16:26 <laurent_> q+
17:16:30 <tzviya> ack mgarrish
17:16:32 <George> It is the author's responsibility to avoid things that will make for a poor reading experience.
17:17:28 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:17:33 <George> Matt: Ivan covered, I would not turn this into a content specification. If we say that people must o this or that. It is better not to go into the content requirements.
17:17:45 <bigbluehat> q+
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17:18:05 <wolfgang> s/ o / do /
17:18:07 <George> Deborah: This not a content spec, but it is important to provide to authors and browsers that there can be best practices.
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17:18:42 <ivan> q+
17:18:48 <George> We have agreed that in a unaward browser, you can get to the content. We want the least polyfills.
17:19:04 <tzviya> ack laurent_
17:19:29 <dkaplan3> s/unaward/non-WP-aware/
17:19:49 <George> Laurent: a browser that will not be able to process the manifest, then the TOC will be the only wany to access the publications.
17:20:01 <dkaplan3> s/the least polyfills/to be able to reach the navigation with as few polyfills as is technologically possible/
17:20:23 <George> If there is no link to theTOC, then there is no way to access the documents in the publications.
17:20:51 <wolfgang> s/theTOC/the TOC/
17:20:53 <Avneesh> q+
17:21:09 <George> Laurent: at least something that resembles the reading order must be in the the entry page.
17:21:42 <George> There must be a way to get to the TOC.
17:21:42 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:22:12 <mgarrish> q+
17:22:12 <George> Benjamin: +1 to the trend. There is already fallback information.
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17:22:39 <George> If a entry page allows to browse a publication.
17:23:08 <George> We should take advantage to make sure the pulication is available.
17:23:11 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:23:50 <George> Ivan: We must be careful. Deborah said polyfill, which is an issue.
17:24:25 <George> What happens when we put in a web publication  which has only the decorative.
17:24:48 <George> What happens when I put in a polyfill which does the min viable behavior.
17:25:00 <George> We should not confuse these two items.
17:25:48 <dkaplan3> q+
17:25:59 <George> If we go down the line of adding content requirements, and we shouldthis is a problem.
17:26:00 <bigbluehat> q+
17:26:25 <dkaplan3> s/an issue/the magic word/
17:27:12 <garth> +1 Ivan
17:27:33 <garth> q?
17:27:47 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:27:49 <garth> q+
17:28:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're talking about only the PEP, not the entire publication
17:28:37 <George> q+
17:28:49 <dauwhe> Avneesh: you can make the entry page useful for getting into the publication. It's a fallback mechanism.
17:29:00 <dauwhe> ... we are not encouraging browsers to render the manifest
17:29:07 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
17:29:08 <tzviya> ack mgarrish
17:29:14 <dauwhe> ... I would be OK with TOC being mandatory
17:29:24 <dauwhe> mgarrish: we've defined the entry page, it's html with a manifest
17:29:29 <dauwhe> ... I think we leave it at that
17:29:35 <dauwhe> ... everything will change over time
17:29:39 <dauwhe> ... the polyfills were change
17:29:46 <dauwhe> ... developers will figure out how this works
17:29:56 <dauwhe> ... people will take this into account.
17:30:04 <dauwhe> ... we should have best practices and tutorials
17:30:11 <dauwhe> ... have some fallbacks
17:30:19 <dauwhe> ... but don't start mandating content
17:30:22 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:30:23 <ivan> +10000 to Matt
17:30:33 <garth> + π
17:30:40 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: tzviya, could you say the sentence we're talking about?
17:30:48 <mateus> +1 mgarrish & Avneesh
17:31:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: it is possible to oopen the entry page in a non-wp-aware browser
17:31:09 <garth> q?
17:31:18 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: there are later conversations about polyfills
17:31:19 <wolfgang> s/oopen/open/
17:31:27 <dauwhe> ... and we can talk about minimal whatever
17:31:32 <dkaplan3> 'It is possible to open the entry page in any standards-compliant user agent that is not WP-aware (henceforth "minimal browser")'
17:32:02 <dauwhe> ... the opening question is that there were questions about what a vanilla browser is
17:32:22 <dauwhe> ... the simple Q of it is possible to open the entry page in the browser we agree on
17:32:39 <ivan> +1 to dkaplan3
17:32:44 <dauwhe> ... we are hanging all our discussions about polyfills and navigation and mandatory content on this simple question
17:32:45 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:32:49 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/html/infrastructure.html#conforming-document
17:32:59 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: can we have better terminology than vanilla browser
17:33:08 <dauwhe> ... we can use something from html conformance classes
17:33:14 <dauwhe> ... the polyfill discussion is distorting
17:33:17 <dauwhe> ... you can do anything
17:33:22 <dauwhe> ... with polyfills
17:33:33 <dauwhe> ... but one of the conforming classes is something that can't do scripting
17:33:40 <dauwhe> ... and we should have user expectations on this document
17:33:49 <dauwhe> ... and we're talking about dictating the content
17:34:04 <garth> q?
17:34:06 <tzviya> ack garth
17:34:07 <dauwhe> ... if this is the publication address, it should send back enough to make sense of it without a polyfill
17:34:08 <mateus> +1 bigbluehat
17:34:15 <dauwhe> garth: plus one to matt ivan dkaplan3
17:34:28 <timCole> q+
17:34:30 <dauwhe> q?
17:34:42 <dauwhe> ... the content creator decides what happens when that html doc opens
17:34:54 <dauwhe> ... but we shouldn't dictate anything
17:34:56 <tzviya> ack George
17:35:16 <dauwhe> George: when I open this page I can bookmark it in my conforming browser, and get back to it
17:35:36 <dauwhe> ... I don't have to have any affordances, I can go back to that entry page and continue to explore the publication
17:35:52 <tzviya> ack timCole
17:35:53 <dauwhe> ... Garth says we're not going to dictate being able to get to all the publication pages from the entry page
17:36:06 <dauwhe> timCole: I agree with dkaplan3's formulation and bigbluehat's comment
17:36:42 <dauwhe> ... I'm a bit concerned by a dead end publication
17:36:46 <garth> q?
17:36:52 <bigbluehat> q+
17:37:04 <dauwhe> ... we need some way to make clear the content of a publication from the entry page
17:37:09 <dauwhe> ... even if it's one by one
17:37:23 <dauwhe> ... if I'm a user and come to things that come to web publications that are dead ends, that's bad
17:37:43 <dauwhe> ... there should be some way in the spec to be able to continue into the publication
17:37:46 <dauwhe> q+
17:38:00 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:38:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's why some of us want an html toc in the entry page
17:38:10 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Minimal-WPUB#wiki-body
17:38:18 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I want to share a link from our wiki
17:38:29 <dauwhe> ... it's a minimal wpub, if you open in a browser it's a blank page
17:38:38 <garth> q+
17:38:40 <ivan> q+
17:38:40 <dauwhe> ... so what tzviya said would solve for that
17:38:49 <tzviya> zakim, close the queue
17:38:49 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is closed
17:38:52 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:40:02 <tzviya> ack garth
17:40:25 <dauwhe> dauwhe: I was concerned about authors who would put WPUBs on the web knowing that all browsers don't support them
17:40:41 <dauwhe> garth: nothing smart will happen with WPUBs without polyfills
17:40:58 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:41:19 <dauwhe> ivan: according to the HTML spec, I can create an html page with a header and an empty body
17:41:25 <dauwhe> q?
17:41:39 <dauwhe> ... why do we want to be more restrictive?
17:41:48 <dauwhe> ... it's possible to make something that's useless. don't do that.
17:41:54 <garth> +1 Ivan
17:42:10 <timCole> q+
17:42:10 <dauwhe> ... mandating content is not how html works
17:42:34 <dauwhe> timCole: to ivan's content, if all we're doing is writing another html spec, he's write
17:42:38 <dkaplan3> +1 timCole
17:42:44 <dkaplan3> s/write/right/
17:42:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> "render the TOC" vs. "access the TOC"--the latter can be done via the header
17:42:46 <dauwhe> ... we're writing for a new entity that's distinct from html
17:42:54 <dauwhe> ... what makes a web publication different from hTML?
17:43:07 <dauwhe> ... one of the characteristics is that something happens when you go to the entry page
17:43:11 <dauwhe> ivan: that's a question of where
17:43:19 <dauwhe> ... if I have a browser with no info about WPUB
17:43:25 <dauwhe> ... I don't think that's a problem
17:43:46 <dauwhe> ... I can make a document that even in a vanilla browser can do somehting sensible, but I will need scriptong
17:43:52 <dauwhe> timCole: I understand your point
17:44:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: I feel this conversation has opened up a lot of other conversations
17:44:15 <dauwhe> ... my goal was making the entry page useful to users
17:44:17 <wolfgang> s/somehting/something/
17:44:21 <dauwhe> ... and then make it useful for machines
17:44:28 <dauwhe> ... and I'm not sure we've agreed on this point
17:44:41 <dauwhe> q+ to say we've agreed on the narrow point
17:45:12 <EvanOwens> +q
17:45:35 <garth> Hallelujah, Dave!
17:45:43 <ivan> Topic: WPUB explainer
17:45:46 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/blob/master/explainers/wpub-explainer.md
17:46:06 <dauwhe> dauwhe: the original resolution is a tautology--since the entry page is html, it can be opened in a browser
17:46:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: the TAG recommends explainers. Dave wrote the explainer with some help from Ivan and tzviya
17:46:26 <tzviya> zakim, open the queue
17:46:26 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open
17:46:32 <dauwhe> q+
17:46:35 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:46:48 <dauwhe> ivan: interruption. Can someone else scribe?
17:46:49 <bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
17:46:51 <dkaplan3> q+
17:47:08 <garth> q?
17:47:21 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: I filed an issue which expresses that the most important thing we could do right now
17:47:25 <bigbluehat> ...is get feedback from the TAG
17:47:40 <bigbluehat> ...I started the explainer because that's a necessary step to get that feedback from the TAG
17:47:49 <bigbluehat> ...we are discussing changes about how the Web works
17:47:58 <bigbluehat> ...and we should get the TAGs feedback on those changes
17:48:07 <bigbluehat> ...to make sure we're not altering those fundamentals incorrectly
17:48:15 <bigbluehat> ...we've been spending a lot of time in our own little publication world
17:48:20 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:48:27 <bigbluehat> ...but since we're writing for the Web, we really need and could use their help
17:48:43 <bigbluehat> dkaplan3: when I read that doc, my reaction was "yeah, thank you dauwhe!"
17:48:54 <bigbluehat> ...it does, however, assume the readers have some basic assumed principles
17:49:06 <bigbluehat> ...things from the EPUB community may make people go "huh?"
17:49:10 <bigbluehat> ...one big one is reading order
17:49:19 <bigbluehat> ...we understand that there's some default reading order
17:49:27 <bigbluehat> ... that doesn't mean you can't read the publication other ways, etc.
17:49:31 <bigbluehat> ...but others may not
17:49:53 <bigbluehat> ...so a document that talks this much about reading order, should probably put in a glossary or something explaining those assumptions/understandings
17:49:58 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: thank you so much dkaplan3!
17:50:04 <ivan> q+
17:50:04 <bigbluehat> tzviya: any other feedback?
17:50:08 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:50:12 <EvanOwens> q+
17:50:15 <bigbluehat> ivan: I have a practical issue
17:50:18 <CharlesL> q+
17:50:26 <bigbluehat> ...I'm perfectly agreeing that showing it to the TAG early next year
17:50:38 <bigbluehat> ...there was a TAG review...well, an individual from the TAG reviewing the document
17:50:45 <bigbluehat> ...it was a long time ago and on a very early draft
17:51:00 <dauwhe> q+
17:51:02 <tzviya> q+
17:51:04 <bigbluehat> ...so I would think that comments going back to that issue is not necessarily moot, but almost
17:51:12 <bigbluehat> ...because many things are gone...or almost gone
17:51:25 <tzviya> ack EvanOwens
17:51:26 <bigbluehat> ...I'd prefer to streamline a way that it is completely fresh
17:51:32 <bigbluehat> ...and not referring back to the original review
17:51:45 <bigbluehat> EvanOwens: what is the long term strategic goal of this project?
17:51:49 <ivan> q+
17:51:54 <bigbluehat> ...are all Web browsers going to read these documents?
17:52:02 <bigbluehat> ...is the entry page just an interim solution?
17:52:05 <bigbluehat> ...what's the goal?
17:52:14 <bigbluehat> tzviya: if I could jump the queue, I'd say that all browsers are the goal
17:52:26 <bigbluehat> ...but that's not likely to happen exactly
17:52:39 <bigbluehat> ...chrome or chromium or whoever aren't likely to implement the whole thing
17:52:41 <ivan> q-
17:52:47 <bigbluehat> ...they're more likely to add parts of it
17:52:52 <bigbluehat> ...once we see adoption of a polyfill
17:53:10 <tzviya> ack CharlesL
17:53:14 <bigbluehat> ...in an ideal world, yes, but in the meantime we'll need polyfills, etc in order to encourage the browsers to implement
17:53:16 <ivan> q+
17:53:29 <bigbluehat> CharlesL: just wanted to point out that when we were doing the a11y task force
17:53:35 <bigbluehat> ...in the digital publishing IG at the time
17:53:39 <bigbluehat> ...we did a gap analysis
17:53:46 <bigbluehat> ...and I'd really like us to see us do that again
17:53:58 <bigbluehat> ...across a Web page, multiple web pages, a publication, etc.
17:54:07 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:54:09 <bigbluehat> ...not just relying on the back button for example
17:54:15 <bigbluehat> ...I'd like to see us spell that out more clearly
17:54:30 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: I'd like to respond to ivan's thoughts on the TAG feedback
17:54:35 <tzviya> q-
17:54:44 <bigbluehat> ...it seems their original feedback still applies directly
17:55:03 <bigbluehat> ...back then Andrew Betts mentioned the Readium Web Publication Manifest
17:55:15 <bigbluehat> ...and raised concerns about a similar approach
17:55:21 <bigbluehat> ...which we're still using with our JSON manifest
17:55:40 <bigbluehat> ...we need to explain what are expectations are for the Open Web Platform for implementing these things
17:55:50 <bigbluehat> ...and acknowledging this feedback seems important
17:55:53 <tzviya> +1 dauwhe
17:55:57 <bigbluehat> ...because in some since this isn't a fresh start
17:55:58 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:56:09 <bigbluehat> ivan: first of all, I accept dauwhe's comments
17:56:21 <bigbluehat> ...but the reason I was in the queue was going a bit beyond what tzviya said
17:56:29 <bigbluehat> ...first, agreeing to everything she said
17:56:36 <bigbluehat> ...maybe it's worth putting into the explainer
17:56:52 <bigbluehat> ...that we understand that browsers will not solve everything under the sun
17:57:08 <bigbluehat> ...that we're considering a structure where we're building on top of things built on top of the browsers
17:57:18 <bigbluehat> ...that seems to be the way browser engines want to go
17:57:32 <bigbluehat> ...and that what we're building can exist on top of those things
17:57:45 <bigbluehat> ...so that we do understand that some of these features may make it into the core
17:58:12 <bigbluehat> ...but that we don't expect that anytime soon
17:58:17 <tzviya> q?
17:58:28 <bigbluehat> ...and perhaps we can point that out in the explainer
17:58:31 <Avneesh> q+
17:58:33 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: that sounds good to me ivan
17:58:38 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:58:38 <bigbluehat> ivan: so what's the plan?
17:58:41 <bigbluehat> Avneesh: just one thing
17:58:53 <bigbluehat> ...maybe to revise the document a little...it talks so much about EPUB
17:59:01 <dauwhe> q+
17:59:04 <bigbluehat> ...they have a negative reaction to that
17:59:10 <bigbluehat> ...and it looks like we're building a new version of EPUB
17:59:17 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:59:20 <bigbluehat> ...maybe we should not be saying that, and neutralize it a bit
17:59:33 <bigbluehat> ...we have a cognitive bias in this group
17:59:44 <bigbluehat> ...all the implementers are EPUB RS implementers in this group
17:59:55 <bigbluehat> ...and these folks aren't, so we should attempt to avoid bias against reading systems
17:59:59 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: I sort of see your point
18:00:10 <bigbluehat> ...but EPUB has had a strong influence on the activity of this group
18:00:22 <bigbluehat> ...because some of these choices were made because these are the kind of things that worked in EPUB
18:00:36 <bigbluehat> ...so trying to explain these things without referring to EPUB would be very challenging
18:00:49 <bigbluehat> ...we're also chartered to spec EPUB4
18:00:59 <bigbluehat> ...and the TAG has existing perspective on EPUB in general
18:01:13 <garth> q?
18:01:14 <bigbluehat> tzviya: I agree with dauwhe that acknowledging that bias seems important
18:01:24 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: I can try and do that in a more neutral way
18:01:31 <bigbluehat> tzviya: sorry to cut you off, but we're out of time
18:01:38 <bigbluehat> ...there are no more 2018 meetings
18:01:46 <bigbluehat> ...next meeting is January 7th
18:01:50 <bigbluehat> ...enjoy your time off!
18:02:01 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #pwg
18:02:34 <bigbluehat> EvanOwens: thank you for the summary
18:02:39 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pwg
18:02:46 <bigbluehat> [lots of people]:  happy holidays!
18:02:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/17-pwg-minutes.html ivan
18:02:56 <JunGamo> JunGamo has left #pwg
18:03:44 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:03:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items