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16:21:16 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:21:16 <ivan> Meeting: JSON-LD Working Group Telco
16:21:16 <ivan> Chair: bigbluehat
16:21:16 <ivan> Date: 2018-12-07
16:21:16 <ivan> Regrets+ azaroth, jeff
16:33:27 <ajs6f> ajs6f has joined #json-ld
16:52:46 <bigbluehat> present+
16:56:18 <gkellogg> present+
16:56:29 <ivan> present+
16:59:19 <timCole> timCole has joined #json-ld
16:59:29 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #json-ld
17:00:08 <ajs6f> present+
17:00:32 <pchampin> present+
17:01:08 <gkellogg> gkellogg has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-json-ld/2018Dec/0001.html
17:01:21 <timCole> present+
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17:02:57 <bigbluehat> scribenick: timCole
17:03:23 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/2018/json-ld-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-11-30-json-ld
17:03:24 <timCole> Topic: Approve Minutes
17:03:41 <timCole> bigbluehat: Any questions or corrections?
17:04:13 <timCole> ... it doesn't say what group Telco these are, also missing chair name
17:04:21 <timCole> ivan: I will take care of it
17:04:33 <timCole> bigbluehat: Chair was me last week
17:04:42 <timCole> Topic: Announcements
17:04:50 <bigbluehat> 2019 Spring Face-to-Face - February 7-8 (Thursday & Friday) in Washington, DC
17:05:24 <timCole> Adam: we have location and rooms, will get that out very soon
17:05:27 <dlehn> present+ David_Lehn
17:05:42 <timCole> ... we got a room in Smithstonian castle
17:06:06 <timCole> ... will get recommendations about hotels, but location is downton DC on National Mall
17:06:32 <ivan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11agKfDU1vTjyKBI_ytLBYFChFCqEfFePNVposnmSW_8/edit -> F2F meeting page
17:06:32 <workergnome> present+ workergnome
17:06:35 <timCole> ivan: I have prepared a file for f2f
17:06:54 <timCole> ... so Adam, you can put info in this google doc
17:07:29 <timCole> ivan: will make sure everybody have edit access
17:07:45 <ivan> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11agKfDU1vTjyKBI_ytLBYFChFCqEfFePNVposnmSW_8/edit?usp=sharing -> roght address
17:07:57 <gkellogg> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11agKfDU1vTjyKBI_ytLBYFChFCqEfFePNVposnmSW_8/edit?usp=sharing
17:08:54 <bigbluehat> Topic: Call schedule for the remainder of 2018
17:09:33 <timCole> bigbluehat: As far as I know we have 14 Dec., but do we need either of the next 2 weeks (21 & 28)?
17:09:51 <timCole> ... I will be unavailable those 2 weeks
17:10:18 <timCole> ... does anyone need a call on either of those days?
17:10:34 <timCole> gkellogg: May not be available either date. Not sure yet.
17:11:11 <timCole> bigbluehat: sounds like we should skip 21 & 28 and restart on 4 January
17:12:19 <timCole> ivan: do we keep 4 January?
17:12:54 <timCole> ... let's do 4th, drop 28 dec and not sure about 21 dec
17:13:10 <pchampin> for what it's worth, I'll probably be unavailable on the 21; and surely on the 28
17:13:11 <timCole> bigbluehat: will query the list about 21 dec and 4 jan
17:13:22 <timCole> Topic: Recent Changes / Merges
17:13:36 <timCole> bigbluehat: Greg please summarize these
17:13:59 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/56
17:14:24 <timCole> gkellogg: issue 56 - this was looking for examples to indicate unexpected behavior when type is a vocab
17:14:52 <timCole> ... i think ball was in Ivan's court whether the examples were sufficient
17:15:11 <timCole> ... we are not closing the issue until after the PR, so question is whether we are ready to close
17:15:32 <timCole> ... we added 2 examples
17:16:07 <timCole> ... next issue is 77, disambiguate uses of @type
17:17:39 <timCole> ... Webex seems to have some problems with this meeting, especially if changing focus on my computer
17:18:04 <timCole> ... we discussed adding @datatype, instead decided to add text around different uses of @type
17:18:14 <timCole> ... are people satisfied with wording?
17:18:24 <timCole> bigbluehat: summarize one more and then we'll pause
17:18:50 <timCole> gkellogg: use of @none regarding language
17:19:16 <timCole> ... in seeming conflict with requirement that language has to be string, @none didn't specify
17:19:29 <timCole> ... fixed that wording making clear that @none has to be a string
17:19:44 <timCole> bigbluehat: these are tagged proposed closing
17:19:50 <ajs6f> q+
17:19:53 <bigbluehat> ack ajs6f
17:19:57 <timCole> ... we need to decide if ready to close
17:20:36 <timCole> ajs6f: I wanted to mention the @datatype issue - I'm okay with this, but we may need a gitHub tag for whenever issues about @type comes up
17:20:58 <timCole> ... this will be a way to verify that spec wording update is enough to minimize confusion
17:21:01 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-wg/issues/24
17:21:23 <timCole> gkellogg: I did raise issue 24 about surfacing the minutes on this topic like we did in Community Group
17:21:36 <timCole> ... could we do this?
17:21:58 <timCole> ... was useful in community group
17:22:25 <timCole> ivan: minutes cleanup is done by me, and summarizing each meeting may not be a good idea
17:22:44 <timCole> gkellogg: there is a scribe tool that builds summaries and indexes automatically
17:23:13 <timCole> bigbluehat: it works on issues and action lists at top/bottom of each meeting minutes
17:23:38 <timCole> gkellogg: the good thing is it aggregates all minutes on each issue
17:24:16 <timCole> bigbluehat: I will take an action to investigate to see if we can build index of minutes by issue
17:24:30 <timCole> ... I think this is a good idea
17:24:45 <timCole> gkellogg: will work with bigbluehat on this since I worked on CG
17:25:11 <timCole> bigbluehat: can we close these 3 issues
17:25:23 <timCole> ... 56, 77 and 102
17:25:38 <timCole> ivan: can we do a resolution to close these 3 issues?
17:25:59 <bigbluehat> PROPOSE: close issues 56, 77, and 102 as having been addressed by recent merges
17:26:08 <ivan> +1
17:26:09 <gkellogg> +1
17:26:11 <timCole> +1
17:26:12 <bigbluehat> +1
17:26:14 <workergnome> +1
17:26:19 <pchampin> +1
17:26:33 <bigbluehat> RESOLVED: close issues 56, 77, and 102 as having been addressed by recent merges
17:26:40 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22propose+closing%22
17:26:58 <timCole> bigbluehat: one more propse closing to consider, issue 76
17:27:09 <timCole> ... it's marked as out of scope.
17:27:17 <timCole> gkellogg: no editorial work has been done on this
17:27:32 <timCole> bigbluehat: we'll put on agenda for next meeting (dec 14)
17:27:44 <bigbluehat> Sub-Topic: Remove the need for wrapping comment-open/comment-close text in data blocks
17:27:51 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/pull/97
17:28:27 <timCole> gkellogg: most of these are related to PRs just discussed, but not all
17:29:03 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/96
17:29:06 <timCole> bigbluehat: current draft talks now about html entities for escaping
17:29:51 <timCole> gkellogg: given that it has to be valid json-ld, how do we deal with escaped entities
17:30:12 <timCole> ... leaves us with problem of how to represent <script> tags and comments in json?
17:30:24 <gkellogg> q+
17:30:29 <timCole> bigbluehat: one option is to mark propose closing and discuss more later
17:30:31 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:31:06 <timCole> gkellogg: DanBri involved and noted in discussion (of this or another related issue 100)
17:31:50 <bigbluehat> PROPOSE: close #97 as fixed with recent merges; other issues raised in #100
17:31:56 <timCole> ... so we could close 97 and leave 100 for further discussion
17:31:57 <gkellogg> +1
17:31:58 <workergnome> +1
17:32:01 <timCole> +1
17:32:02 <bigbluehat> +1
17:32:04 <ivan> +1
17:32:20 <bigbluehat> RESOLVED: close #97 as fixed with recent merges; other issues raised in #100
17:32:28 <bigbluehat> Sub-Topic: Text and tests for using HTML base for embedded JSON-LD
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17:32:32 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-api/pull/51
17:33:23 <gkellogg> q+
17:33:26 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:33:26 <timCole> bigbluehat: this one is about how to resolve urls are resolved, e.g., how html base is used
17:33:36 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/23
17:33:42 <timCole> gkellogg: the associated issue is 23, which we have closed
17:34:04 <timCole> ... this does not deal with referencing html for context and that should stay a separate issue
17:34:24 <timCole> bigbluehat: does anyone want to write up this other issue - Adam volunteered
17:34:32 <bigbluehat> Sub-Topic: Text and tests for using HTML base for embedded JSON-LD
17:34:33 <timCole> ... any issues about recent merge
17:34:38 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-api/pull/51
17:34:51 <bigbluehat> Sub-Topic: Clarify IRI compaction
17:34:55 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-api/pull/52
17:34:59 <gkellogg> q+
17:35:02 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:35:24 <timCole> gkellogg: PR 52 resolves issue 75
17:35:39 <timCole> ... based on previous discussion, I did use autoclose on this
17:35:51 <bigbluehat> Topic: Pending PRs
17:35:55 <timCole> bigbluehat: last chance for anyone to raise questions about this PR
17:36:00 <bigbluehat> Subtopic: Clarify that language map values of `@none` are strings
17:36:05 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/pull/104
17:36:06 <timCole> ... hearing none, we will move on
17:36:29 <timCole> bigbluehat: 104 is about clarifying the language map and use of @none
17:36:45 <timCole> gkellogg: this is like the one discussed earlier
17:36:56 <timCole> ... giving Rob a chance to comment
17:37:35 <timCole> bigbluehat: would love people raising questions / comments between calls, but want to provide opportunity on calls as needed
17:37:54 <bigbluehat> Topic: Issues
17:37:55 <timCole> ... we need to better relate PRs and issues being closed
17:38:02 <bigbluehat> Subtopic: Handling HTML character references in embedded JSON-LD
17:38:07 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/100
17:38:23 <gkellogg> q+
17:38:26 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:38:29 <timCole> bigbluehat: so far most of work has been Greg and Dan
17:38:43 <gkellogg> q?
17:39:11 <bigbluehat> q+
17:39:34 <timCole> gkellogg: this is a relatively narrow issue - we should solve by not resolving html entities in the API
17:39:46 <timCole> ... the narrow use case is script tags and comments
17:40:02 <ajs6f> q+
17:40:18 <timCole> ... so we should document by clarifying in spec language but not resolving the html entities
17:40:55 <timCole> ... if an html embedded in json (which is inside a script tag) closes the script tag, then rest of json will be treated as body
17:41:10 <timCole> ... in theory you can end up embedding javascript
17:41:24 <timCole> ... I suggest we document and say don't do this
17:41:28 <bigbluehat> ack bigbluehat
17:41:39 <timCole> ... and leave browser to defend against this
17:41:55 <timCole> bigbluehat: agree this seems not our problem
17:42:18 <timCole> ... people who put end script tag in their json-ld will find that they've broken their html
17:42:49 <timCole> ... if people need to escape character entities, they'll do, but it will become an html issue not our problem
17:43:18 <timCole> ... while we don't want to avoid edge cases, this still doesn't seem to be our issue
17:43:28 <timCole> ... but would love to her back from Dan on this
17:43:35 <bigbluehat> ack ajs6f
17:43:49 <timCole> ... just add note that you could disrupt html parsing by doing this and leave it at that
17:44:31 <timCole> ajs6f: I don't want to minimize the security concern, but since this is coming from server side, it seems not as threatening
17:44:48 <timCole> ... not as bad from accepting user input
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17:45:09 <gkellogg> q+
17:45:13 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:45:39 <timCole> gkellogg: I would propose that we close this issue and remove all except a non-normative caution note
17:45:56 <timCole> ... that data block should remain valid
17:46:07 <timCole> ... I don't anticipate anything different on this from schema.org
17:46:35 <timCole> ... this removes some text from API doc and maybe some changes in syntax document where we currently talk about how to escape
17:47:40 <bigbluehat> PROPOSE: close #100 with note about authoring concern related to HTML charcters and </script> and remove existing ext on JSON-LD processors handling character encodings
17:47:44 <gkellogg> +1
17:47:45 <timCole> +1
17:47:48 <bigbluehat> +1
17:47:53 <ivan> +1
17:48:03 <bigbluehat> q?
17:48:09 <ajs6f> +1
17:48:11 <workergnome> +1
17:48:19 <pchampin> +1
17:48:27 <gkellogg> s/ ext/text/
17:48:27 <bigbluehat> RESOLVED: close #100 with note about authoring concern related to HTML charcters and </script> and remove existing text on JSON-LD processors handling character encodings
17:49:01 <bigbluehat> Subtopic: Introduce concept of "sealed" contexts
17:49:05 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/20
17:49:08 <ajs6f> q+
17:49:25 <bigbluehat> ack ajs6f
17:49:30 <timCole> bigbluehat: Digital Bazar has weighed in with more of their use cases that break
17:50:06 <timCole> ajs6f: A meta comment - Digital Bazar has been producing interesting and valueable use cases
17:50:28 <timCole> ... can we get someone from Digital Bazar to join an upcoming call
17:51:03 <timCole> dlehn: I'm here but not ready to volunteer on this issue
17:51:26 <timCole> bigbluehat: We need to get some more time and get additional folks from Digital Bazar
17:51:37 <timCole> ... other thoughts?
17:51:47 <bigbluehat> Subtopic: Allow @type for @none in Language Maps
17:51:51 <bigbluehat>    https://github.com/w3c/json-ld-syntax/issues/91
17:51:53 <timCole> ... hearing nothing now, please keep working on this issue on GitHub
17:52:02 <gkellogg> q+
17:52:29 <ivan> q+
17:52:37 <bigbluehat> ack gkellogg
17:52:38 <timCole> bigbluehat: Idea with 91 is that there is no way to fall back to HTML, which international has suggested is best way to deal with language issues
17:53:16 <timCole> gkellogg: issue is to allow non-string values, for which a value object without type might be one option, and opening that door allows almost anything
17:53:30 <timCole> ... that ruins the normality, and not sure it helps the use case
17:53:41 <ajs6f> q+
17:54:07 <timCole> ... seems you'd be more likely to use either all language tags or all html literals
17:54:14 <pchampin> q+
17:54:15 <bigbluehat> ack ivan
17:54:42 <timCole> ivan: i think you should either close or defer - this issue did come up in pub wg
17:55:02 <timCole> ... their concern is a bit convulted to talk about
17:55:31 <timCole> ... when I wrote it down, I got a private message that they didn't really like this solution (right after TPAC)
17:55:45 <timCole> ... pinged them 2 days ago.
17:56:17 <timCole> ... the result may be that in JSON and JSON-LD this issue can not be done perfectly, and we should be cognizant of perfect is the enemy of the good
17:56:43 <timCole> ... title element seems one place where this could come up, but title doesn't allow html text
17:56:43 <bigbluehat> ack ajs6f
17:56:54 <timCole> ... we should avoid being more catholic than the pope
17:57:06 <timCole> ajs6f: mostly agreeing with what's been said
17:57:34 <timCole> ... a pattern of string, string, string, complex stuff, string, string is not good
17:57:53 <ajs6f> +1
17:57:53 <gkellogg> q?
17:57:54 <workergnome> +1
17:57:54 <timCole> ... goes against trying to keep json-ld in line with expectations
17:58:02 <bigbluehat> ack pchampin
17:58:41 <timCole> pchampin: i agree that this is a strange use case, but regardless i posted a solution that works in dev playground
17:59:05 <timCole> ... having 2 distinct properties, one accept a string, one a language map
17:59:21 <timCole> bigbluehat: similar to Annotation and Social WG for some of their specs
17:59:45 <timCole> pchampin: a little more cumbersome
17:59:46 <bigbluehat> PROPOSE: close #91 as wrong solution for the right problem
17:59:47 <ajs6f> q+
17:59:51 <bigbluehat> ack ajs6f
18:00:21 <timCole> ajs6f: the kind of thing pchampin is offering seems a good option, can we open an issue to generate examples
18:00:32 <ivan> +1
18:00:36 <bigbluehat> +1
18:00:37 <gkellogg> +1
18:00:40 <pchampin> +1
18:00:40 <timCole> ... this is a pattern that could be confusing, we should offer best practices
18:00:42 <timCole> +1
18:00:43 <workergnome> +1
18:00:44 <ajs6f> +1
18:00:50 <bigbluehat> RESOLVED: close #91 as wrong solution for the right problem
18:01:19 <timCole> ivan: can I close after transferring comments to issue?
18:01:24 <timCole> bigbluehat: yes
18:01:47 <timCole> bigbluehat: adjourn
18:02:12 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/07-json-ld-minutes.html ivan