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16:42:00 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:42:00 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
16:42:00 <ivan> Chair: luc
16:42:00 <ivan> Date: 2018-12-04
16:42:00 <ivan> Regrets+ jeff, rickj, chayes
16:42:00 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Dec/0001.html
16:42:01 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-12-04: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Dec/0001.html
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17:00:14 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
17:00:58 <ivan> present+
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17:02:12 <Rachel> present+
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17:02:56 <wolfgang> present+ George
17:02:57 <ivan> present+ george
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17:04:42 <laudrain> scribenick Rick
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17:05:05 <garth> present+ Garth
17:05:25 <ivan> scribenick: rkwright
17:05:34 <Karen> present+ Karen
17:05:38 <ivan> topic: epubcheck revision
17:05:42 <rkwright> laudrain: Good news from epubcheck group
17:06:05 <rkwright> ... DAISY was chosen and their goal was to fix the existing problems.
17:06:26 <rkwright> ... The result is EPUBCheck 4.1 which is now available.
17:06:56 <rkwright> ... Many bugs are fixed, but it does NOT contain any support for EPUB 3.2
17:06:57 <ivan> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/11/epubcheck-intermediate-4-1-release/ -> blog on epubcheck
17:07:11 <rkwright> thank you Ivan
17:07:41 <rkwright> But we still need to raise more money for supporting the 2 years of development.
17:08:00 <rkwright> ... But we are only halfway there.
17:08:56 <rkwright> ... Note that we still need to carefully check that EPUBCheck is performing correctly
17:09:15 <laudrain> q?
17:09:39 <rkwright> dauwhe: Some issues are still being tracked, e.g. CSS etc.  but its validation is in good shape.
17:10:08 <rkwright> laudrain: we are expecting a beta release of EPUBCheck by the end of February 2019
17:10:30 <rkwright> ... This will be a very important message for the publishing sector.
17:11:03 <laudrain> q?
17:11:06 <rkwright> ... Note also that we need to continue the message about the "sunset" of EPUB 2
17:11:42 <ivan> topic: discussion on whether epub 3.2 should be rec in a WG
17:12:05 <rkwright> laudrain: Work is continuing in the WG about finalizing 3.2
17:12:33 <liisamk> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing
17:12:38 <rkwright> ... There are folks on the WG who are both in favor of 3.2 and those opposed.
17:13:01 <rkwright> ...  A document of pros and cons is being prepared.  It may be too early to take a firm decision
17:13:18 <dauwhe> q+
17:13:30 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
17:14:25 <rkwright> dauwhe:  SOme of you may have noted that Makota-san is concerned that approving 3.2 may result in features being dropped that are actively used in Japan
17:14:47 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
17:14:50 <Julian_Calderazi> present+
17:15:04 <rkwright> ... I have been very busy creating tests for EPUB - from OEB 1.2 up to the present day
17:15:13 <rkwright> ... I could use some help with this
17:15:42 <rkwright> laudrain: Is this something the CG could help with?
17:15:59 <liisamk> +1 to Dave's approach
17:16:00 <rkwright> dauwhe:  Yes, we will be discussing this in the Thursday meeting
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
17:16:04 <Zakim> Present: laudrain, wendyreid, dauwhe, Yanni, wolfgang, ivan, tzviya, Rachel, rkwright, liisamk, George, Ralph, JulieBlair, Avneesh, Garth, Karen, Julian_Calderazi
17:16:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Julian_Calderazi, garth, Ralph, JulieBlair, liisamk, Avneesh, wendyreid, Yanni, laudrain, Karen, wolfgang, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, rkwright, dauwhe, Rachel,
17:16:07 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, dmitry
17:16:24 <tzviya> q+
17:16:43 <dauwhe> q+
17:17:15 <rkwright> laudrain:  The concern of (some of) the Japanese is that they have added features to their variant of EPUB and that these features may be dropped in 3.2
17:17:25 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:18:06 <rkwright> tzviya: I do not understand the concern about the "loss" of features. This seems overblown
17:18:45 <rkwright> ... it will be easier to present and test if the spec is a formal spec
17:20:01 <rkwright> laudrain: Note that publishers can't wait for standards - they use what is being supported.
17:20:03 <laudrain> ack Dave
17:20:08 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
17:20:44 <rkwright> dauwhe: The way to address this gap in understanding is through clearly specifying  and testing the spec
17:20:49 <laudrain> q?
17:21:14 <rkwright> ... The concern of the Japanese is that the WG will drop features that are currently used by the J publishers
17:21:22 <Avneesh> q+
17:21:27 <rkwright> ... Including the title of the package...
17:21:27 <tzviya> ...that are not supported now
17:21:35 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
17:22:19 <dauwhe> q+
17:22:23 <rkwright> avneesh: Note that testing is good, but requiring all these features and testing will delay the ratification of the spec.
17:22:29 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
17:22:30 <liisamk> q+
17:22:43 <garth> q?
17:22:48 <garth> q+
17:23:21 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:23:32 <rkwright> dauwhe: It was not my expectation that we would delay the spec.  We are gated at by the completion of the spec and the readiness of RS to consume it
17:24:28 <laudrain> ack garth
17:24:33 <rkwright> liisamk: Rec-track seems less important than getting the buy-in  from the fringe people who are hesitant about adoption EPUB 3.x
17:25:08 <rkwright> garth: Not obvious how a RS that supports 3.0.1 WOULDN'T support 3.2
17:25:46 <laudrain> q?
17:25:56 <rkwright> ... So we shouldn't wait for EPUBCheck to support 3.2   Instead, we should support and bless 3.2 ASAP
17:26:04 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #pbg
17:26:15 <laurent_> present+
17:28:03 <rkwright> laudrain:  Seems that the key is for the CG to be testing the spec and the WG will continue to work on extending the spec (e.g. WP and audio)
17:28:35 <rkwright> ... But we need to be consistent in our messaging about the status and direction of EPUB 3.2
17:28:42 <laudrain> q?
17:29:22 <ivan> Topic: priorities
17:29:42 <laurent_lm> q+
17:29:52 <wendyreid> q+
17:29:53 <rkwright> laudrain:  Is there any news about audio support for eBooks?  From the TF?
17:30:19 <laudrain> ack laurent_lm
17:31:00 <rkwright> laurent: There are some action items from the WG about audio-books, but it does not seem to be a priority for the WG
17:31:02 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
17:31:36 <rkwright> wendyreid:  Note that next week's WG meeting will discuss audio-books
17:31:57 <rkwright> ... And the WG is also taking on the packaging and how it relates to audio-books
17:32:32 <laudrain> q?
17:32:53 <rkwright> ... The WG believes it understand the parameters of the audio-book problem, but the TF lacks input from the audio book publishers.
17:33:09 <Avneesh> q+
17:33:30 <laurent_lm> q+
17:33:40 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
17:34:10 <rkwright> avneesh: I don't think the spec is a major issue though there are some issues related to packaging
17:34:38 <laudrain> q+ George
17:34:42 <rkwright> ... Our top priority should be getting feedback from the publishers
17:34:45 <laudrain> ack George
17:34:59 <tzviya> q+
17:35:01 <liisamk> q+
17:35:21 <rkwright> George: The audio publisher industry is not that technical.  So getting direct input and support may be difficult
17:36:00 <rkwright> ... So perhaps we need to engage those groups in a different fashion that is not WG-traditional
17:36:07 <laudrain> ack laurent_lm
17:36:52 <laudrain> q+
17:36:57 <rkwright> laurent: I will be talking tomorrow to a group about audio-book support in Europe
17:37:16 <wendyreid> q+
17:37:19 <rkwright> ... I intend to report back to this group about their concerns etc.
17:37:40 <dauwhe> q+
17:37:40 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:38:31 <rkwright> George:  Note that we are not asking them to change their base production approach, but more about the metadata
17:38:45 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:38:45 <wendyreid> q-
17:38:54 <rkwright> tzviya: Is there a list of publishers etc. that we are contacting/working with?
17:39:47 <rkwright> liisamk: Agree that the audio-publishers are not particularly technical.  They would be happy to provide "requirements" but are not about implementation
17:39:55 <laudrain> ack laudrain
17:40:04 <rkwright> ... SO are approach would need to be different
17:40:42 <laudrain> q?
17:41:26 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
17:41:27 <rkwright> laudrain: Note that there are a lot of audio-book usage in northern Europe.  We should make sure to reach out to them
17:42:14 <garth> q?
17:42:22 <rkwright> dauwhe: Less concerned with discussing the technical aspects with publishers as ensuring that we need are meeting their actual needs.
17:42:54 <wolfgang> s/we need are/we are/
17:42:57 <laurent_lm> q+
17:43:06 <rkwright> garth: Don't disagree with dauwhe but we need to also need to rope in both the vendors (Google PLay, etc.) but also the producers
17:43:22 <laudrain> q+
17:43:28 <ivan> ack laurent_lm
17:43:32 <ivan> ack laurent_lm
17:43:35 <laudrain> ack laudrain
17:43:40 <ivan> ack laudrain
17:43:45 <rkwright> laurent:  We also need to convince the producers that metadata etc. is valuable in both their workflow and to their end-users.
17:44:24 <rkwright> laudrain: Agreed.  Note that we are supporting ONIX, which is very valuable in this regard.
17:44:52 <laudrain> q?
17:45:03 <ivan> topic: visual narratives
17:45:39 <rkwright> laurent:  Yesterday we spoke at ?? about EPUB as well as audiobooks and there was some significant interest
17:45:58 <tzviya> q+
17:46:05 <ivan> https://www.w3.org/community/bdcomacg/ -> BD/Comics/Manga CG
17:46:36 <rkwright> ... I believe we need encourage the CG to develop the use-cases and requirements
17:46:39 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:46:57 <rkwright> ... Then it will be reasonable to involve the WG more deeply
17:47:33 <rkwright> tzviya: It is important to note that are getting more interest from Japanese publishers so we need to ensure that we loop them in
17:47:47 <laudrain> q?
17:48:12 <rkwright> laurent:  Agreed.  Yesterday I did speak to some of the publishers from Japan about this, particularly manga
17:48:13 <laudrain> q+
17:48:15 <Karen> q+
17:48:37 <rkwright> ... But we also need to loop in American publishers re comics
17:49:22 <laudrain> ack laudrain
17:49:44 <rkwright> laudrain: We recently had a workshop in Japan about visual narratives and this is likely to produce some useful outcomes
17:49:58 <laudrain> ack Karen
17:50:24 <wolfgang> s/???/Les Assises du Livre Numérique/
17:50:42 <liisamk> q+
17:50:59 <rkwright> Karen: I have looked in to some comics production in the US, but if you have additional leads that would be useful
17:51:02 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:51:04 <garth> q?
17:51:06 <garth> q+
17:51:29 <laudrain> ack garth
17:51:44 <rkwright> liisamk:  Comicsology is owned by Amazon but it is something of a black box from the publishers perspective
17:52:09 <ivan> Topic: TPI members
17:52:36 <tzviya> s/Comicsology/Comixology
17:53:17 <laudrain> q?
17:53:28 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Ri-6KT5Kfg5HPYzKTKvlWUswi4dgz3UGd7jrpivxXE/edit?usp=sharing
17:54:54 <laudrain> q?
17:54:56 <rkwright> tzviya: There will be a meeting of the advisory board of the W3C soon.  One of the evening meetings will be focused on topics relevant to this group, esp. w/r to TPI Membership.
17:55:33 <Karen> q+
17:55:38 <rkwright> George: Note that one of the options for TPI members is to join the business group member
17:55:43 <laudrain> ack Karen
17:56:28 <laudrain> q+
17:56:37 <ivan> ack laudrain
17:56:38 <rkwright> Karen: Note that we are rolling out a new campaign to encourage those TPI members
17:57:02 <Karen> s/we are rolling out/we have completed a new campaign
17:57:33 <rkwright> laudrain: We need to recognize that our meeting-support for Asian members is not good (due to the time-differences among other issues)
17:57:47 <laudrain> q?
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17:58:33 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:58:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/04-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:58:33 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:58:33 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:58:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:58:34 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been laudrain, wendyreid, dauwhe, Yanni, wolfgang, ivan, tzviya, Rachel, rkwright, liisamk, George, Ralph, JulieBlair, Avneesh, Garth,
17:58:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:58:36 <Zakim> ... Karen, Julian_Calderazi, laurent_