15:43:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:43:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/11/30-pbgsc-irc
15:43:25 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:43:25 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee Telco
15:43:25 <ivan> Chair: laudrain
15:43:25 <ivan> Date: 2018-11-30
15:43:25 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2018Nov/0050.html
15:43:25 <ivan> Regrets+ daihei, yoshii
15:58:40 <tzviya> present+
15:58:50 <ivan> present+
15:58:54 <dauwhe> present+
15:59:11 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:59:24 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:59:34 <ivan> present+
15:59:46 <liisamk> present+
16:00:14 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pbgsc
16:00:22 <Ralph> present+
16:00:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:00:55 <ivan> present+ billK
16:01:08 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
16:01:08 <Zakim> Present: tzviya, ivan, dauwhe, liisamk, Ralph, billK
16:01:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Ralph, liisamk, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, Rachel, tzviya, dauwhe, wendyreid
16:01:16 <ivan> present+ luc
16:01:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:01:34 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:58 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbgsc
16:02:02 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pbgsc
16:02:11 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbgsc
16:02:19 <Rachel> present+
16:02:45 <ivan> present+ george
16:03:35 <laudrain> present+
16:03:52 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
16:03:55 <jeff> present+ jeff
16:04:37 <dauwhe> present+ George
16:05:01 <dauwhe> laudrain: let's start
16:05:12 <dauwhe> ... who knows about EPUBCheck?
16:05:16 <ivan> topic: EPUBCheck status
16:05:35 <dauwhe> ... they have reached milestone 1; EPUBCheck 4.1 was released this week.
16:05:37 <ivan> q+
16:05:49 <dauwhe> ... many thanks to all who helped
16:05:52 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/releases/tag/v4.1.0
16:05:56 <dauwhe> ... we have enough money to pay for phase 1
16:06:19 <dauwhe> ... I can ask for payment to be made
16:06:24 <dauwhe> $1
16:06:33 <Rachel> no objections!
16:06:34 <dauwhe> liisamk: it's OK to pay
16:06:45 <ivan> present+ rachel
16:06:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: we will ask DAISY to pay DAISY :)
16:07:20 <Rachel> q+
16:07:21 <dauwhe> ... fundraising status: we have almost $70k now. We're still waiting for some payments. Haven't received this week's report yet
16:07:39 <dauwhe> ... let's keep evangelizing
16:07:43 <dauwhe> q?
16:07:44 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:07:52 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
16:07:59 <dauwhe> ivan: I was wondering if there should be a blog post about phase 1
16:08:01 <garth> present+ Garth
16:08:06 <dauwhe> laudrain: I did a post on w3c blog
16:08:50 <laudrain> q?
16:09:07 <dauwhe> George: can we prepare something that can be emailed to various groups--BISG, for example
16:09:15 <dauwhe> ... it wasn't  posted to the PBG list either
16:09:17 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/11/epubcheck-intermediate-4-1-release/
16:09:19 <dauwhe> laudrain: I'll email PBG
16:09:27 <laudrain> ack Rachel
16:09:49 <dauwhe> Rachel: can you forward the fundraising updates from DAISY so we can see who's be donating? It will help us track who we should be talking to.
16:09:53 <dauwhe> laudrain: will do
16:09:55 <laudrain> q?
16:10:45 <ivan> Topic: membership discussion
16:10:46 <jeff> q+
16:10:47 <dauwhe> laudrain: re: membership. Any more about the end of TPI? And the Q of the publishing chamption?
16:10:55 <laudrain> ack Jeff
16:11:09 <dauwhe> jeff: Karen has been working on membership the most
16:11:21 <dauwhe> ... she's converted a few more TPI members to BG members
16:11:30 <dauwhe> ... and some smaller members to full members
16:11:51 <dauwhe> ... in Japan, we have two large Japanese firms who've converted to full members
16:12:50 <dauwhe> ... in terms of the publishing champion, there were conversations at TPAC about this, but it has not been resolved
16:13:03 <laudrain> q?
16:13:04 <dauwhe> ... people in Japan asked who it was, and I said "me" for now :)
16:13:08 <dauwhe> laudrain: any questions?
16:13:39 <dauwhe> laudrain: I had a Q about bringing TPI members to BG members
16:14:03 <dauwhe> ... if they can't afford full membership, they can be business members
16:14:32 <dauwhe> jeff: when we did the merger, we tried to estimate where we would end up--how many TPI as BG members, and how many as regular members
16:14:57 <dauwhe> ... our expectation at the time was that TPI would mostly become business members
16:15:09 <dauwhe> ... we're probably ahead of expectations
16:15:30 <dauwhe> ... on full members, but behind expectations on business group memberships
16:15:47 <dauwhe> ... we even lost some who did not convert to TPI
16:15:59 <liisamk> q+
16:16:10 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:16:19 <dauwhe> liisamk: the entry to BG is not easy or obvious
16:16:31 <dauwhe> ... the email only links to full members
16:16:43 <dauwhe> ... the publishing home page is not easy to understand
16:17:03 <dauwhe> ... we should make the steps to becoming a business member more obvious
16:17:17 <dauwhe> jeff: that's great feedback. Can you summarize that in an email to Karen and I?
16:17:20 <laudrain> q?
16:17:33 <ivan> topic: NYC event
16:17:35 <dauwhe> Topic: AB Meeting and publishing meetup
16:17:44 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Ri-6KT5Kfg5HPYzKTKvlWUswi4dgz3UGd7jrpivxXE/edit?usp=sharing
16:18:05 <laudrain> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Ri-6KT5Kfg5HPYzKTKvlWUswi4dgz3UGd7jrpivxXE/edit?usp=sharing
16:18:06 <laudrain> 
16:18:18 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're proposing to have a meetup with the AB during the AB meeting in NYC area in January
16:18:28 <dauwhe> ... doesn't have to be formal; I've started on an agenda
16:18:35 <dauwhe> ... could just be a conversation with talking points
16:18:44 <dauwhe> ... we wouldn't expect people to travel to this
16:18:53 <dauwhe> jeff: that covers it
16:19:14 <dauwhe> ... a few years ago the TAG started having a dev meetup during their F2F meetings
16:19:23 <dauwhe> ... the AB thought that was a good idea
16:19:44 <tzviya> q+ to point out that we need to select a location
16:19:54 <dauwhe> ... we try to find groups in the cities we visit that may be interested in general governance issues
16:20:14 <dauwhe> ... since we were in NYC, and it's the hub of publishing in the US, it made sense
16:20:26 <laudrain> q?
16:20:32 <laudrain> ack tzviya
16:20:32 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to point out that we need to select a location
16:20:37 <dauwhe> tzviya: we need a location.
16:20:53 <dauwhe> liisamk: we might be able to get a fancy room
16:20:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: should we say PRH?
16:21:01 <dauwhe> liisamk: sure
16:21:22 <dauwhe> garth: is this just AB and publishers, or do we want folks from this group? Who's invited
16:21:45 <dauwhe> liisamk: it would be helpful if you and wendy and others could be there
16:21:48 <laudrain> q?
16:22:04 <laudrain> q+
16:22:15 <tzviya> q+
16:22:17 <dauwhe> laudrain: will you send invitations? Do you want us to bring you names?
16:22:32 <dauwhe> ... for HBG, our former AC ryan should be invited
16:22:41 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:22:45 <ivan> ack laudrain
16:22:45 <ivan> ack tzviya
16:22:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: should we announce this to the BG and the WG? SHould it be invitation-only?
16:22:54 <laudrain> ack tzviya
16:22:57 <dauwhe> liisamk: how many seats?
16:23:16 <dauwhe> s/liisamk/tzviya/
16:23:17 <jeff> q+ on AB's perspective on size
16:23:23 <dauwhe> liisamk: I can do most anything
16:23:37 <garth> q?
16:23:40 <ivan> ack jeff
16:23:40 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on AB's perspective on size
16:23:46 <laudrain> ack jeff
16:23:52 <dauwhe> jeff: from an AB point of view were are flexible
16:24:06 <dauwhe> ... in London we had 15 devs, in Berlin we had 200.
16:24:29 <dauwhe> laudrain: Alan Bird will be in Paris next week?
16:24:34 <dauwhe> ivan: I think so
16:25:04 <dauwhe> laudrain: the questions in the agenda doc are good, important questions
16:25:30 <jeff> q+ to comments about TPIs more generally
16:25:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: we'll need to do a bit more planning.
16:25:57 <laudrain> ack Jeff
16:25:57 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comments about TPIs more generally
16:26:13 <dauwhe> jeff: linking the last two topics, AB meetup and converting TPI members
16:26:38 <dauwhe> ... one thing that I'm hearing about why TPIs are not staying in BG
16:26:55 <dauwhe> ... while the spec work has transitioned well, like EPUB and WPUB
16:27:10 <dauwhe> ... it's not clear the community stuff and the business-focused stuff has transitioned well
16:27:24 <dauwhe> ... for example the IDPF conference at BEA
16:27:45 <dauwhe> ... how do we make sure people see the business value of the PBG as a community
16:27:54 <dauwhe> ... maybe that could be a theme of the AB meetup
16:28:00 <laudrain> q+
16:28:02 <liisamk> q+
16:28:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Jeff. I've heard the same comments.
16:28:11 <ivan> ack laudrain
16:28:14 <dauwhe> laudrain: it's true that we haven't organized an event like that
16:28:19 <dauwhe> ... in 2018
16:28:25 <dauwhe> ... should we make something for 2019?
16:28:47 <dauwhe> ... there's a digital publishing summit in Paris organized by EDRLab but that's not w3c
16:28:55 <garth> q+
16:29:00 <dauwhe> ... should we do something in the fall? as we did at TPAC SFO?
16:29:08 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:29:08 <dauwhe> liisamk: jeff, to your point
16:29:36 <dauwhe> ... there was always a level of membership in IDPF, spend a few thousand dollars and get a bit of cachet
16:30:05 <dauwhe> ... they didn't go to meetings, there was little involvement, it's harder to spend the money
16:30:16 <dauwhe> ... I think it's a bit of an argument for 3.2 REC
16:30:32 <jeff> q+
16:30:35 <dauwhe> ... we talked about a conference a few months ago, and people were largely against it
16:30:50 <dauwhe> ... are people missing the conference, or the cachet?
16:30:53 <laudrain> ack garth
16:31:10 <dauwhe> garth: the cachet question is an interesting one. I thought this would be better with W3C
16:31:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:31:36 <dauwhe> ... re: conference; it's fine to do EDRLab or TPAC, but that's not where the publising community hangs out
16:31:40 <laudrain> q+
16:31:43 <dauwhe> ... maybe we should consider something at BEA
16:31:45 <ivan> ack jeff
16:31:48 <laudrain> ack jeff
16:32:04 <dauwhe> jeff: I don't have an answer about conferences
16:32:11 <dauwhe> q+
16:32:14 <wendyreid> q+
16:32:21 <dauwhe> ... I was reflecting back what I've been hearing
16:32:28 <dauwhe> ... it's a good question for the BG
16:32:36 <garth> Maybe something at BEA would help W3C with publisher member (collection) outreach too.
16:32:59 <liisamk> q+
16:33:06 <dauwhe> jeff: I'm just sharing some of what I'm hearing
16:33:10 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:33:29 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: IDPF membership had cachet in trade publishing and people who serve trade publishing
16:33:40 <dauwhe> ... but w3c membership matters more for people outside those groups
16:33:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: the EDRLab summit is may or june, which would conflict with BEA
16:34:17 <dauwhe> ... I agree with Garth that book fair is much more reasonable place for this than a technology event like TPAC
16:34:25 <dauwhe> ... maybe Frankfurt in the fall?
16:34:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:34:33 <dauwhe> ... it's the biggest fair in Europe
16:34:43 <Rachel> q+
16:34:56 <ivan> ack laudrain
16:34:58 <dauwhe> ... it's already too late for May/June anyway
16:35:04 <dauwhe> ... we should decide in the near future
16:35:04 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:35:06 <ivan> q+
16:35:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> lots of US people go to Frankfurt
16:35:11 <laudrain> ack Dave
16:35:26 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:35:51 <tzviya> +1 to dauwhe
16:36:04 <ivan> ack wendyreid
16:36:06 <dauwhe> dauwhe: IDPF/BEA was terrible
16:36:08 <laudrain> +1 to Dave
16:36:15 <Ralph> Dave: we shouldn't just re-create what the old IDPF conference was
16:36:16 <Rachel> +1 dauwhe
16:36:17 <dauwhe> wendyreid: conferences put a demand on travel
16:36:18 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
16:36:28 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot more we can do in the grassroots
16:36:41 <dauwhe> ... we can do meetups, tweets, articles
16:36:49 <dauwhe> ... we could have a meetup in Toronto
16:36:57 <laudrain> q+
16:36:58 <dauwhe> +1
16:37:02 <laudrain> +1
16:37:03 <Rachel> +1 wendyreid
16:37:10 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:37:12 <ivan> +1 to wendy
16:37:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: Some people liked BEA
16:37:54 <dauwhe> ... perhaps we should have a presence at existing conferences
16:38:09 <dauwhe> ... and then focus on meetups
16:38:19 <dauwhe> ... we could send one person to EDRLab
16:38:29 <dauwhe> ... we could have one person at BEA in some other track
16:38:34 <wendyreid> +1
16:38:39 <laudrain> +1 to liisamk
16:38:44 <dauwhe> ... one person at Frankfurt. Telling people that w3c is where the work is happening
16:38:47 <ivan> q+ george
16:38:54 <ivan> ack george
16:38:59 <dauwhe> George: we at DAISY are having great success promoting EPUB
16:39:15 <dauwhe> ... and W3C adds credibility to the standard
16:39:29 <dauwhe> ... at AHG in Denver two weeks ago, huge awareness of EPUB was building
16:39:31 <laudrain> q?
16:39:40 <dauwhe> ... we have CSUN coming up, where we have several presentations
16:39:51 <dauwhe> ... in the disability community we're doing really well
16:40:11 <dauwhe> ... I don't see those people getting into the PBG, but we're engaging them in other ways
16:40:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:40:25 <dauwhe> ... EPUB has much more engagement in higher ed than it did six months ago
16:41:05 <laudrain> ack Rachel
16:41:13 <dauwhe> Rachel: +1 to wendyreid
16:41:31 <dauwhe> ... at this point a grassroots effort will bring more value than a conference
16:41:41 <dauwhe> ... we need more handholding than what a conference allows
16:41:51 <dauwhe> ... and focus on our verticals and our local geography
16:42:08 <dauwhe> ... and adding to that by proselytizing at conferences
16:42:29 <dauwhe> ... I disagree about w3c being something that higher ed folks are aware of
16:42:38 <dauwhe> ... they mostly not familiar with w3c
16:42:47 <dauwhe> ... or only know wcag
16:42:59 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't occur to them that we want to be involved
16:43:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to the grassroots approach
16:43:30 <dauwhe> ... one thing I'll say about Frankfurt--it's great for trade, but it's not big for education publishers
16:43:38 <laudrain> q?
16:43:53 <dauwhe> ivan: we seem to be converging on Wendy's idea
16:43:53 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:44:23 <dauwhe> ... let's remind ourselves that it's a massive effort to create an event for a large numbers of people
16:44:33 <dauwhe> ... IDPF piggybacked on BEA for a reason
16:44:48 <dauwhe> ... these are major undertakings, and we might not have the resources to do it
16:44:59 <dauwhe> ... wendy's approach is more manageable, more possible
16:45:10 <dauwhe> laudrain: I like the idea of regional events
16:45:39 <dauwhe> ... could we have a unique preparation, a unique task force, which could go to regional book fairs
16:45:47 <dauwhe> ... Frankfurt does have education stuff
16:46:16 <dauwhe> ... we could have a task force to prepare the content of a conference, and then apply it to different regions. Frankfurt in Europe.
16:46:30 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:46:31 <dauwhe> ... there's a question of money
16:46:37 <laudrain> q?
16:46:45 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:47:13 <jeff> q+
16:47:20 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: My point was that W3C is more relevant to edu publishers than IDPF
16:47:52 <dauwhe> ... I like the idea of, rather than spending time on a single conference, getting on the program where various sectors are is important
16:48:29 <dauwhe> ... we're already past deadlines for some conferences next year
16:48:32 <laudrain> q?
16:49:11 <laudrain> ack jeff
16:49:26 <dauwhe> jeff: Luc, you asked if we should have a task force on regional conferences
16:49:38 <dauwhe> ... and that made me step back and think about what we're doing
16:50:19 <dauwhe> ... going back to the 100s of former IDPF members, and asking them what you were getting from IDPF, and why hasn't that transitioned into interest in W3C?
16:50:47 <dauwhe> ... maybe it could be that the transition from EPUB 2 to EPUB 3 is done. But I don't know why these people dropped off.
16:50:49 <Rachel> q+
16:50:56 <laudrain> ack Rachel
16:51:04 <dauwhe> Rachel: I would speculate...
16:51:23 <laudrain> q+
16:51:27 <dauwhe> ... there is an understanding that w3c is for developers, and the techinical minded, and they don't understand much about the business group
16:51:58 <dauwhe> laudrain: if for europe we are trying to do something in Frankfurt, what help could I get from W3C?
16:52:32 <dauwhe> ... how could it be organized? This is not for this meeting for it, but we should figure it out.
16:52:55 <dauwhe> jeff: Ivan is in Europe, and Alan is spending half his time there, and there's european staff
16:53:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: we can talk about that in the future
16:53:06 <laudrain> q?
16:53:09 <dauwhe> ... any more questions?
16:53:10 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:53:11 <dauwhe> ack lau
16:53:25 <dauwhe> ... we had more topics about the different groups
16:53:35 <dauwhe> ... the task force about REC track is still discussing
16:53:41 <ivan> topic: epub task force
16:53:42 <dauwhe> ... it's not ready to bring back
16:53:48 <dauwhe> ... we have other issues about priorities
16:54:09 <dauwhe> ... the 3.2 spec is being improved by feedback from EPUBCheck
16:54:43 <dauwhe> ... we can have a final report of 3.2 when EPUBCheck is done
16:54:53 <dauwhe> ... I was wondering about bug reporting
16:55:07 <dauwhe> ... and there are new CGs, with BD/Manga
16:55:15 <dauwhe> ... we talked about some issues around calls
16:55:45 <dauwhe> ... especially with timing for Japan etc
16:56:20 <tzviya> q+
16:56:34 <laudrain> ack tzviya
16:56:57 <liisamk> q+
16:56:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: we had the WG chairs call; I'll be reaching out to new members from Japan about a welcome call at an asia-friendly time and then a regular asia-friendly call
16:57:12 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:57:29 <dauwhe> liisamk: so we'd have some calls at US/Euro friendly times, and others at other times
16:57:38 <jeff> q+ on meeting with Makoto
16:57:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: we need to get a feel for what people want
16:58:01 <dauwhe> liisamk: should we do this across groups?
16:58:08 <dauwhe> laudrain: it's a difficult question
16:58:14 <laudrain> ack jeff
16:58:14 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on meeting with Makoto
16:58:18 <dauwhe> jeff: I don't solutions for time zones
16:58:50 <dauwhe> ... I met with ??? in Japan, he was describing in detail how Japanese publishers were avoiding CSS writing modes and using bitmaps
16:59:09 <dauwhe> ... I shared with him how we might finesse the issue with REC track
16:59:14 <dauwhe> q+
16:59:25 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
17:00:22 <tzviya> s/???/Makoto
17:00:27 <laudrain> dauwhe: in the REC TF, makoto has pushed obejction on features removed form EPUB spec
17:00:58 <laudrain> q?
17:01:02 <dauwhe> jeff: we're working on addressing the concerns. F2F discussions were helpful.
17:01:23 <dauwhe> ... it's just one piece of a larger puzzle.
17:01:39 <dauwhe> laudrain: we are out of time. Thanks to all. We're working on an agenda for the next BG call.
17:01:55 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/30-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan