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15:01:35 <dauwhe> present+
15:01:36 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:01:37 <ivan> present+
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15:01:39 <laudrain> present+
15:01:40 <wendyreid> present+
15:01:43 <liisamk> present+
15:01:56 <ivan> date: 2018-11-26
15:02:55 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing BG EPUB-Rec task force telco
15:03:53 <ivan> scribenick: liisamk
15:04:15 <tzviya> shared document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing
15:04:41 <liisamk> ivan: situation is not specific to this wg, decision power for features is by the members of the wg
15:06:01 <liisamk> ... there is a practice of people from outside wg giving opinions through mailist or github
15:06:56 <liisamk> ... if you go to the director for approval and there are open technical issues, there is a problem regardless of who opened that issue
15:07:21 <liisamk> ... if there are people outside the wg who have strong opinions that they raise, this is taken into account
15:07:47 <liisamk> ... wg makes decisions, but expect that chairs are careful to take into account any opinions raised
15:08:34 <liisamk> ... same for test suite items and epub tests, grateful for tests from outside
15:09:35 <liisamk> ... non-w3c members can raise issues and it must be taken into account
15:10:00 <liisamk> dauwhe: the same is true for the CSS WG
15:10:34 <liisamk> ... there are people who are heard and opinions valued from people who know what they are talking about
15:10:48 <tzviya> q+
15:11:08 <liisamk> luc: agree with ivan and dave that issues are taken seriously
15:11:28 <liisamk> ... point that publishers will not be inside the voting process
15:12:06 <liisamk> ... want the publishers and the bg and cg to be aware of this
15:12:51 <liisamk> ... possible to make objections and issues, but this requires that they have people skilled enough and aware enough to make an objection
15:13:13 <liisamk> ... makes the epub3 REC goes away from the publishing industry
15:13:16 <liisamk> q+
15:13:45 <liisamk> ... idpf was a publishing industry community and the membership was affordable, which is not the case with w3c
15:14:01 <dauwhe> q+
15:14:06 <liisamk> ... epub3 standard will be taken away, not far away, but away
15:14:37 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:14:54 <liisamk> tzviya: recognize the concern, but can look at it as an issue for how we explain membership
15:15:25 <liisamk> ... the membership costs are high, but we have effectively the same group of people who are involved now
15:15:41 <liisamk> ... in principle it seems a problem, in practice maybe not an issue
15:16:06 <liisamk> ... it may be the way we explain it and we can help people and where they can be involved
15:16:51 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:17:21 <laudrain> q+
15:18:09 <liisamk> liisamk: hear all of you, but think we need a little faith and it is a matter of communication
15:19:12 <liisamk> dauwhe: tracked names and people who commented (like 60%) are people who are members
15:20:12 <liisamk> ... the majority of people would not be locked out by this
15:20:15 <liisamk> q+
15:20:21 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
15:20:31 <liisamk> ack laudrain
15:20:51 <liisamk> laudrain: asks if this would change after the TPI
15:21:10 <liisamk> dave: not sure how much that would change
15:21:35 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:21:59 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:21:59 <Zakim> Present: dauwhe, ivan, laudrain, wendyreid, liisamk
15:22:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see liisamk, laudrain, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, dauwhe, wendyreid
15:22:17 <ivan> present+ tzviya
15:22:30 <wendyreid> q+
15:22:32 <dauwhe> q?
15:22:41 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:22:55 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:22:57 <ivan> ack wendyreid
15:22:59 <liisamk> ack wendyreid
15:23:15 <liisamk> wendyreid: sounds more like a communication than participation issue
15:23:32 <ivan> q+
15:23:45 <liisamk> ... if what we need to do is maintain incredibly clear lines of communication, we can do things about that
15:23:59 <liisamk> ... this shouldn't be a huge hurdle
15:24:42 <laudrain> q+
15:24:49 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:24:58 <liisamk> ivan: probably possible to add explicitly to the charter that we are mindful to the public and put in some language that makes it easier
15:25:06 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:25:19 <liisamk> laudrain: this brings new load on the rechartering
15:25:39 <liisamk> ... it brings issues about communications between the groups
15:25:53 <liisamk> ... agree we can improve communication to address the concern
15:26:42 <liisamk> ... bg should have more focused calls and people understand what is at stake and give opinion
15:27:21 <tzviya> q+
15:27:23 <liisamk> ... not optimistic that all the experts we need will be there after the TPI, germany and norway are not here
15:27:51 <liisamk> ... we should clarify with w3cm what will be the future after end of january
15:28:21 <liisamk> ack tzviya
15:28:35 <liisamk> tzviya: don't think we have all the experts we need
15:28:57 <liisamk> ... this has always been a problem, there is always a small group of contributors
15:29:21 <laudrain> q+
15:29:32 <liisamk> ... more participation would be wonderful
15:29:38 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:29:52 <liisamk> laudrain: puts more responsibility on members like Hachette and others
15:30:19 <liisamk> ... associations in close contact with publishers in other areas may help with communications
15:31:12 <liisamk> ... have people in the wg and the bg and associations involved also
15:31:32 <ivan> Topic: what we think are the benefit of rec track?
15:31:58 <tzviya> q+
15:32:08 <laudrain> q+
15:32:20 <liisamk> liisamk: makes the spec/ISO work easier
15:32:23 <dauwhe> q+
15:32:24 <liisamk> ack tzviya
15:32:33 <wendyreid> +1
15:32:51 <liisamk> tzviya: best benefit is to go through the testing process and that will help us find bugs that we've never found
15:33:17 <liisamk> ... epubtest.org and efforts have been helpful and this will be better and will get a lot of eyes on the spec
15:33:30 <liisamk> ... that will help with interest from the web community
15:33:33 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:34:01 <liisamk> laudrain: not so optimistic, the tests in the CG will be good and bugs good
15:34:32 <liisamk> ... that testing is good decision toward rec track, would be useful even if no rec
15:34:57 <liisamk> ... web community to have a look, not sure that is interesting to them web community because of non-w3c standards
15:35:16 <liisamk> ... we have concerns it would be modified with rec track
15:35:26 <liisamk> ... should not impact our industry because we are using it today
15:35:51 <liisamk> ... anxious for something happening to the spec
15:36:07 <liisamk> q+
15:36:26 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:36:27 <liisamk> ... not sure that ISO and Japanese community need this
15:36:47 <liisamk> dauwhe: there is a fundamental question of do we think epub is good enough or not
15:37:05 <liisamk> ... struggled for a long time, foundational difficulties with interoperability
15:37:32 <liisamk> ... used this approach for a long time now and not making progress with problems with the epub ecosystem
15:38:06 <liisamk> ... don't think there is a fundamental issue for rec, but the process will help us make it more robust
15:38:21 <liisamk> ... don't see other choices that will get us where we need to be
15:38:32 <liisamk> ... this is one of the few tools we have available
15:38:36 <tzviya> +1 dauwhe
15:40:14 <ivan> q?
15:40:26 <dauwhe> q+
15:40:32 <liisamk> ack liisamk
15:40:34 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:40:38 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:41:38 <liisamk> liisamk: need to think about japanese govt needs and publisher needs separately
15:41:45 <laudrain> q+
15:42:35 <liisamk> dauwhe: think we need to think about what does the publishing world need
15:42:52 <ivan> q+
15:42:54 <liisamk> tzviya: think we should go rec track and not get too tied up in ISO
15:43:03 <ivan> ack laudrain
15:43:19 <liisamk> liisa: ivan- please clarify if ISO requires rewriting or is basically a rubber stamp if we are rec track
15:43:26 <dauwhe> q+
15:43:27 <liisamk> ivan: yes, it is a rubber stamp
15:44:06 <liisamk> laudrain: asks tzviya about commitment to this community
15:44:21 <liisamk> tzviya: at TPAC the wg was more focused on epub than wp
15:44:25 <liisamk> q+
15:44:40 <laudrain> q+
15:45:03 <liisamk> ...the wp may suite for audiobooks, but we need to think about what does the publishing world need
15:45:26 <liisamk> ... what do we need to focus on that the publishing community will adopt
15:45:40 <liisamk> ... what will make epub 3.2 be something adopted?
15:45:56 <liisamk> ... rec track will make it happen more easily
15:46:04 <liisamk> ack ivan
15:47:12 <liisamk> ivan: it is true for the time being that epub 3.2 staying in the cg will not really have attention from the w3c as is true of hundreds of cgs
15:47:33 <liisamk> ... wg is finding it's role and don't really understand what to do and where we want to go
15:48:15 <liisamk> ... if 3.2 comes into w3c with all the problems it becomes more the rest of the business community will use it and not forget
15:48:54 <liisamk> ... makes more tangible that there is a community that uses w3c technologies and their feedback needs to be taken more seriously
15:49:44 <liisamk> ... if there a whole community that is part of the w3c the many things that are limited they will more likely be addressed
15:50:07 <liisamk> ... it makes publishing part of the core work, and it is a bit of psychology
15:50:16 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:50:19 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
15:50:40 <liisamk> dauwhe: we need help from the larger web community to bring publishing closer to the web
15:50:50 <liisamk> ... epub has a complicated relationship with the web
15:51:09 <liisamk> ... don't think we have shown we can play well with the web
15:51:28 <liisamk> ... need to be mindful of relationships
15:51:40 <liisamk> ack laudrain
15:51:56 <liisamk> laudrain: have urgent need for audiobook
15:52:14 <liisamk> ... never identified epub 3.2 as a rec for an urgent need
15:53:24 <liisamk> ... show epub 3.2 that we are involved, but we know it is not pure web
15:53:43 <liisamk> ... epub 3.2 is epub 3.0.1
15:54:12 <ivan> q+
15:54:23 <liisamk> ... psychology interest is to have stable environment
15:54:31 <liisamk> ... can produce epub and have epubcheck
15:54:41 <tzviya> q+
15:55:37 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:56:03 <liisamk> liisamk: agree with ivan and tzviya on psychology and with luc on priorities with audiopub
15:56:10 <liisamk> ... can do both at once
15:56:22 <liisamk> ivan: psychology with web community
15:56:58 <liisamk> ... epub now has a peculiar position that it is the largest implementation of css and svg and core tech outside of browsers
15:57:25 <liisamk> ... no other deployments are as wide with cars and payments and others
15:57:47 <liisamk> ... the community helps clarify that web tech is not just for web browsers
15:58:04 <liisamk> ... have major usage outside the web browser world
15:58:37 <liisamk> ... if we are in w3c and we do the work, it will be an aha feeling
15:58:53 <liisamk> ... w3c is part of deployment, that counts
15:59:08 <laudrain> q?
15:59:12 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:59:28 <liisamk> tzviya: we're not getting far writing the doc
15:59:52 <liisamk> ... ab meeting at the end of Jan. and wants the pub community to meet
16:01:06 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3ctag/w3ctag.github.io/blob/master/explainers.md
16:01:33 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/26-pubtf-minutes.html ivan
16:01:33 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:01:33 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items