00:03:49 RRSAgent has joined #pbg 00:03:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/11/14-pbg-irc 00:04:01 Rrsagent, make logs public 00:04:12 Daihei has joined #pbg 00:04:26 has gotomeeting started? I show "waiting for the organizer to arrive" 00:04:53 same here 00:04:53 Me too. 00:04:53 present+ 00:04:59 present+ 00:05:01 same here 00:05:48 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg 00:05:49 same here 00:06:04 Daihei joined 00:06:09 is the GoToMeeting going? 00:06:14 present+ 00:06:24 no, the GoToMeeting hasn't started- 00:06:53 I won't be hearing anything until GTM is started. It no longer gives me a phone number to call in to 00:07:24 USA: +1 (312) 757-3129 00:07:38 thanks 00:07:42 ok, I will try US number 00:08:12 Phone numbers from different countries: 00:08:12 USA: +1 (312) 757-3129 00:08:12 UK: +44 330 221 0088 00:08:12 Canada: +1 (647) 497-9353 00:08:13 Germany: +49 692 5736 7317 00:08:13 Austria: +43 7 2088 3962 00:08:14 Belgium: +32 28 93 7018 00:08:14 Danemark: +45 32 72 03 82 00:08:14 Spain: +34 932 75 2004 00:08:14 Finland: +358 923 17 0568 00:08:15 France: +33 170 950 594 00:08:15 Ireland: +353 15 360 728 00:08:16 Italy: +39 0 230 57 81 42 00:08:16 Norway: +47 21 93 37 51 00:08:16 Netherlands: +31 207 941 377 00:08:16 Sweden: +46 853 527 836 00:08:17 Switzerland: +41 225 4599 78 00:08:40 need access code 00:08:49 994278485 00:09:05 for reference: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/gotomeetings 00:09:10 thanks I'm in now 00:11:45 +No number for Japan? 00:12:14 murata we are trying again to start the gotomeeting 00:12:26 it works now 00:13:26 scribenick: jeff 00:13:47 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 00:14:02 Liisa: Shall we dive right in or go through Luc's note 00:14:14 [dog barking in background] 00:14:23 Murata: Not everyone has seen Luc's note. 00:14:27 I lost the connection- dialing back 00:14:40 ... a quick overview of Luc's note would be useful. 00:15:26 ... Is there a link to Luc's email? 00:15:47 Liisa: Luc's message is in the agenda 00:16:19 RJ: To clarify, it is at the bottom of the agenda 00:16:50 Liisa: At TPAC we discussed that EPUB 3.2 at the same time as EPUB 4.0 in 2020 would be confusing to the marketplace 00:16:59 ... it would slow 3.2 adoption 00:17:17 jyoshii has joined #pbg 00:17:21 ... discussed how to get wide adoption of 3.2 00:17:29 join+ 00:17:32 ... pointed out issues of interop 00:17:43 ... hard to make an epub file that is guaranteed to work 00:17:48 ... lots of bugs 00:17:56 ... raised need for testing for all features 00:18:16 present+ yoshii 00:18:35 ... how to convince the market to move forward with 3.2 00:18:43 ... discussions at TPAC between WG and BG 00:18:55 ... also new requirements for Audiobooks 00:19:04 ... EPUB 3 could not do that job 00:19:14 ... Importance of ISO to Asian participants 00:19:20 ... (to be discussed tonight) 00:19:29 ... with the recognition that 3.2 is only a CG today 00:19:45 ... That led to a discussion of a EPUB 3.2 W3C Recommendation. 00:19:47 I do not think that Japanese publishers need an ISO/IEC standard for EPUB 3.2 strongly. 00:19:50 ... fix bugs 00:19:54 ... encourage interop 00:19:58 ... work with reading systems 00:20:04 ... BG would help with advice 00:20:05 But a CG report is certainly a second class citizen. 00:20:16 ... a REC would help encourage people to fix bugs 00:20:25 ... get to faster adoption of ISO standard as well 00:20:31 ... help the Asian marketplace 00:20:37 But Korea strongly like ISO/IEC standards for EPUB. 00:20:43 ... with that TPAC summary, what do you think? 00:20:49 ... is ISO important 00:21:00 Murata: Japanese publishers don't care 00:21:11 ... but people care for accessibility (e.g. Daisy) 00:21:17 ... helps with government adoption 00:21:21 ... Korea cares 00:21:40 ... EPUB 3.0 for ISO was Korea's request 00:21:59 Liisa: So publishers don't care in Japan, but accessibility cares and Korea cares 00:22:08 q+ 00:22:18 q? 00:22:34 BillK: So Korean publishers will do EPUB 3.2 because we have a TS. 00:22:44 Murata: We only have a TS for EPUB 3.0 00:22:55 BK: So Koreans are stuck with 3.0? 00:23:07 MM: Don't know what they want for 3.2. 00:23:22 ack bobbytung 00:23:25 BTung: ISO important for government in Taiwan 00:23:44 ... important for reading system for 3.2 00:23:49 ... and globally 00:24:22 Liisa: Sounds like significant portions of Asia where a 3.2 ISO would be a help. True? 00:24:38 BT: Yes. 00:24:53 ... but publishers care about when reading systems will have new version which is a global issue 00:25:18 Liisa: Comments? Worries about this direction? 00:25:23 Yes, 00:25:24 q+ 00:25:54 BK: Depending on the process, is there a danger that the spec of the CG would be changed? 00:26:04 MM: Quite unlikely. 00:26:16 ... most are opposed to divergence. 00:26:26 ... so if there are changes there will be no consensus 00:26:28 q+ 00:26:39 ... I will oppose technical divergence 00:26:41 ack bi 00:26:52 ... e.g. Canada requested changes to 3.0 00:26:59 ... we resisted all of them. 00:27:08 ack Jeff 00:27:11 scribenick: Karen 00:27:14 good, thanks 00:27:24 Jeff: I wanted to share with folks on this call, when we did merger with IDFP 00:27:35 ...we established a direction for Web Publications and EPUB4 00:27:48 ...at TPAC 2018 some were concerned if staff was bought in 00:27:56 ...for the EPUB3.2 to go onto the rec track 00:28:04 ...from my perspective, when we agreed to merger, 00:28:12 ...we agreed not to a fixed point strategy 00:28:28 ...but we agreed to shepherd the community in whatever direction they feel best and we are fully supportive of that 00:28:34 scribenick: Jeff 00:28:54 Liisa: Again: concerns? pros and cons? 00:28:56 s/IDFP/IDPF 00:28:56 q+ 00:29:06 scribenick: Karen 00:29:08 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing 00:29:10 ack Jeff 00:29:18 Jeff: also want to add another point of interest 00:29:28 ...Next week I'm in Beijing and in two weeks I am in Tokyo 00:29:33 ...Keio host is arranging my schedule 00:29:44 ...I understand it is quite busy with AB and government meetings 00:30:06 ...but if anyone would like to discuss [publishing] this with me while in Tokyo, please get in touch with Naomi Yoshizawa 00:30:14 ...and I'm happy to meet with people while I am there 00:30:33 Liisa: thank you, Bobby, for dropping in the link to the Google doc with the pros and cons 00:30:38 scribenick: Jeff 00:30:49 Liisa: We discussed having a REC track task force 00:30:58 ... collect ideas across groups 00:31:01 ... specific proposals 00:31:05 ... how to get this done 00:31:11 ... might this slow down the work of the WG? 00:31:19 ... would we need to recharter? 00:31:42 q+ 00:31:44 q+ 00:31:51 ack rick 00:31:52 +q 00:32:06 RJ: The decision to look at 3.2 must mean we slow down something 00:32:08 q- later 00:32:19 ... it implicitly slows down EPUB 4 00:32:39 ... when we get Audio/Manga up to speed, it puts a governor on those 00:32:46 does it slow down WP though? 00:32:55 MM: I would like to see EPUB 3 as a REC as is 00:33:00 ack Murata 00:33:01 ... without dropping features 00:33:07 q+ 00:33:09 ... validate what is in the market 00:33:11 q- later 00:33:36 ... Japanese publishers already have reasonable interop 00:33:42 ... due to @@@ profile 00:33:57 ... but I understand the issue of interop in general 00:34:01 s/@@@/EBPAJ 00:34:13 ... with enough interest we can do it 00:34:16 q+ 00:34:26 ack rick 00:34:39 ack jeff 00:34:51 RJ: I understand the hesitancy to remove a feature 00:34:57 ... but unknown 00:35:08 ... are you OK with moving forward even if we don't know for sure 00:35:16 ... so can we proceed with the next step? 00:35:22 q+ 00:35:25 MM: Next step will take much effort 00:35:42 ... Japanese publishers will not do testing again 00:35:53 ... Do others from Japan agree? 00:36:08 q? 00:36:28 ack liisamk 00:36:40 LMK: My question, Makoto, do you not already feel you have two implementations of every feature in the profile 00:36:53 MM: For example, in @@@, no implementation is perfect 00:37:04 ... but publishers know to avoid certain features 00:37:11 ... we have interop; but not at the feature level 00:37:18 q- 00:37:23 ... publishers avoid certain Unicode characters for some feature 00:37:38 LMK: So it depends on how we define a feature 00:37:51 ... Is full Unicode support a feature, or subdividable 00:38:30 MM: If we will not drop any feature in the EBPAJ profile, I will feel more comfortable. 00:38:37 LMK: Any other input? 00:39:01 ... we don't have such a profile for NA 00:39:09 ... maybe that will come out of the testing 00:39:11 q+ 00:39:18 MM: Regional profile sometimes makes sense 00:39:24 ... e.g. for vertical writing 00:39:28 ... not needed in NA 00:40:03 BK: Somewhat circular 00:40:11 ... people don't want features removed 00:40:19 ... but it needs 2 implementations 00:40:30 ... if feature is widely used is it an implementation 00:40:40 scribenick: Karen 00:40:46 Jeff: the devil is in the details 00:41:12 ...Liisa already hinted at that when she said, 'is full Unicode compliance undefinable; interpreted that as being fully implemented 00:41:25 ...subset feature, what has been implemented, means it is interoperable 00:41:31 BK: that makes sense 00:41:36 s/undefinable/subdividable/ 00:41:50 LMK: When we are talking about the spec and features, we need to define what we mean. 00:42:14 +q 00:42:23 scribenick: jeff 00:42:27 ... so we can do it in a way that we don't lose features 00:42:45 ... couldn't think of such a feature at TPAC. 00:42:50 Jeff: Also wanted to add 00:42:57 ...we discussed if feature only done by single implementation 00:43:09 ...there is option to leave it in the standard as a formative rather than normative requirement 00:43:10 ack bill 00:43:25 s/a formative/informative/ 00:43:35 ack Murata 00:44:04 MM: Something may be implemented by one EPUB reading system 00:44:10 ... but still in the market 00:44:15 ... we should not make it informative 00:44:17 q+ 00:44:21 ... could be examples in ibooks 00:44:30 LMK: Here is a PRH example for scripting 00:44:45 ... we have javascript that works well at apple and nowhere else 00:44:55 ... works ok in other places, but not as well 00:45:06 ... use it for popups in our kids books 00:45:17 ... works well and pops up for 3 reading systems 00:45:24 ... fails gracefully in 4 others 00:45:30 ... we feed it to Amazon 00:45:35 ... they ingest it 00:45:41 ... I consider that to be interoperable 00:45:49 MM: Are there no pubs dedicated to ibooks? 00:46:07 LMK: I have 2 titles with such extensive, convoluted, imprecise javascript 00:46:13 ... that it only works for ibooks 00:46:19 ... JS is a feature 00:46:40 ... making it part of a W3C standard, then an ISO standard will help pressure other reading systems to provide support 00:46:53 ... today, people are nervous to implement 00:47:10 EBPAJ EPUB 3 Creation Guide here (with English version download link) http://ebpaj.jp/counsel/guide 00:47:20 LMK: Is there a strong feeling that we should NOT move along the path of REC for 3.2. 00:47:23 q+ 00:47:24 ... that this will not work 00:47:29 Concerned but do not oppose. 00:47:30 ... or are we generally supportive 00:47:36 ack li 00:47:51 RJ: We are not looking for blanket approval to go the whole way. 00:48:09 ... we want to take the next few steps to determine our course. 00:48:13 +q 00:48:19 LMK: Great point. 00:48:22 ack 00:48:24 ack r 00:48:25 ack m 00:48:38 MM: In Epub 3.1 some features were removed 00:48:50 ... others were almost removed until Japan showed evidence they were used 00:48:59 ... demonstrate interop 00:49:11 ... are we asking Japanese users to commit to similar work for 3.2? 00:49:20 q+ 00:49:20 LMK: Not sure. 00:49:40 ... In 3.1 we learned a lot about backward compatibility 00:49:45 ... noone adopted it 00:50:02 ... we are trying to be more deliberate 00:50:19 ack RickJ 00:50:21 ... will need participation from Japanese publishers and reading systems that we covered the needs 00:50:41 RJ: A fundamental requirement of 3.2 was that a 3.0 doc would be a valid 3.2 doc. 00:50:46 ... a reset to 3.0.1. 00:50:57 ... hence a small delta and very focused. 00:51:13 LMK: Comments? Questions? Concerns? 00:51:48 MM: Does someone have a list of features to be dropped already? 00:52:00 LMK: That work has not been started. 00:52:04 ... it would be done in the CG. 00:52:10 ... figure out what to test. 00:52:11 https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-changes.html 00:52:25 q+ 00:52:30 rrsagent, make minutes 00:52:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/14-pbg-minutes.html jeff 00:52:46 BK: We are not talking about dropping 3.2 features. Are we? 00:53:06 LMK: We are not talking about dropping features. We are looking at the right tests to make sure it all works. 00:53:31 RJ: We are not talking about dropping, but people are concerned that the REC process might cause it. 00:53:38 LMK: Need to get through next phase. 00:53:43 ... no intention to drop. 00:54:24 LMK: Other questions? 00:54:35 BK: Direction from the BG? 00:54:37 q+ 00:54:44 LMK: Looking to the task force. 00:54:46 scribenick: Karen 00:54:46 ack bill 00:54:49 ack Jeff 00:54:57 Jeff: Curious who is on the task force again? 00:55:09 LMK: Myself, Ivan, Garth, Tzviya, Wendy and Dave 00:55:12 BillK: and Luc 00:55:16 LMK: Luc 00:55:26 Jeff: might it be helpful to have someone from Japan on the task force? 00:55:31 MM: I am thinking of monitoring that 00:55:40 ...will things eventually be endorsed by PubBG 00:55:42 scribenick: jeff 00:55:55 ... I should make comments in the task force. 00:56:02 LMK: Thanks, Makoto. 00:56:09 Topic: Epub Check 00:56:19 LMK: Development for EPUB check is underway 00:56:23 ... we are fundraising 00:56:38 ... please see if your marketplace/businesses can help crowdsource the funding. 00:56:43 https://www.w3.org/publishing/epubcheck_fundraising 00:56:50 ... simple 00:56:54 ... sign-up 00:56:59 ... decide what to contribute 00:57:07 ... credit card or we can bill you if you prefer 00:57:15 q+ 00:57:23 ack kare 00:57:42 KM: Where are contributors acknowledged? 00:58:04 LMK: Contributors logos will be on download page 00:58:10 ... meanwhile on fundraising page 00:58:34 ... on track for development to be done in February 00:58:46 ... so we are working on enabling reading systems 00:58:58 ... talking to Apple 00:59:11 q+ 00:59:18 ack bi 00:59:36 BK: Logos on download page does not get more donations 00:59:46 ... should update contributor page 00:59:47 +1 BillK 00:59:54 LMK: Names are there, but no logos yet. 01:00:32 ... again, Jeff will be in Asia; happy to meet 01:00:39 ... thanks for calling in, all. 01:00:47 [adjourned] 01:00:52 rrsagent, make minutes 01:00:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/14-pbg-minutes.html jeff 01:01:07 ShinyaTakami has left #pbg 01:01:19 bobbytung has left #pbg 01:01:53 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 01:05:12 yanni has left #pbg 02:01:21 ShinyaTakami has joined #pbg 03:18:30 Zakim has left #pbg