IRC log of silver on 2018-11-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:33:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:33:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:33:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:33:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #silver
14:33:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference
14:33:25 [trackbot]
Date: 13 November 2018
14:33:28 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
14:34:03 [Lauriat]
14:34:08 [KimD]
KimD has joined #silver
14:34:19 [KimD]
14:34:22 [mikeCrabb]
14:34:27 [Lauriat]
Present+ Jennison
14:34:48 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Plain language
14:34:49 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Conformance model
14:34:54 [Makoto]
14:35:19 [jeanne]
14:35:19 [Cyborg]
Cyborg has joined #Silver
14:35:19 [Cyborg]
14:35:26 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
14:36:18 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #silver
14:36:44 [Cyborg]
would like to see the new samples, thanks
14:36:56 [LuisG]
LuisG has joined #silver
14:37:38 [LuisG]
Jeanne: We've received several Plain Language samples. I think we have some new people working on it. We're delighted to have you.
14:38:00 [kirkwood]
14:38:05 [LuisG]
14:38:52 [Cyborg]
having trouble finding it...
14:39:08 [jeanne]
14:40:11 [Cyborg]
one sec, reading it...
14:40:25 [Cyborg]
Luis, can't hear you...
14:40:29 [Cyborg]
too quiet
14:40:32 [Cyborg]
can you please speak up?
14:40:40 [LuisG]
that's Charles ;)
14:41:01 [LuisG]
Charles: We should avoid calling our specific disabilities.
14:41:13 [Cyborg]
human language in summary is not clear
14:41:21 [LuisG]
Lauriat: We should focus on the functional rather than the disability.
14:41:25 [Cyborg]
and i agree about not naming specific LDs
14:42:04 [Cyborg]
i feel like there is lack of clarity
14:42:27 [Cyborg]
14:42:44 [jeanne]
Jeanne: We will update the Style Guide to say not to name the disability.
14:43:36 [jeanne]
Cyborg: I read this like a member of the public, I don't understand the human language. What does that mean? Machine vs human, or English vs. French.
14:43:43 [jeanne]
... I think the summary needs work
14:44:13 [jeanne]
... Starting with a negative is confusing. We need to be clear in the summary. Give more context.
14:44:47 [jeanne]
... I would move the text-to-speech higher in the list
14:44:58 [jeanne]
... I agree with taking out dyxlexa
14:45:25 [jeanne]
... the definition of human language should be explained in the Summary
14:45:44 [jeanne]
Charles: I agree on the abiguity of the Summary.
14:46:15 [jeanne]
... in the list of bullet points of Why, we don't need to prioritize. Why should we move it above.
14:47:09 [jeanne]
Cyborg: The first thing should be the dominate or most strong argument. I'm trying to think in a Style Guide mode.
14:47:55 [jeanne]
Charles: I agree with the clarification needed on human language.
14:48:25 [jeanne]
... if the first bullet, because "understanding text" is more important than the technical implementation
14:48:49 [jeanne]
Cyborg: We need an audience that is not technical.
14:49:15 [jeanne]
... I don't think they would understand human language.
14:49:55 [LuisG]
jeanne: We're going to do that, but not yet. Once we've updated the styleguide and done some more refinements, we'll let people comment.
14:50:20 [LuisG]
Cyborg: There should be something in the style guide that says that the audience doesn't require understanding of WCAG or technical knowledge
14:50:52 [LuisG]
or wait...was she saying it did require understanding of WCAG?
14:52:28 [jeanne]
Detlev: It is nice to be able to phrase things so they don't require technical knowledge. There is a tradeoff. So you would have to have a lot of references to a glossary, or you would have to explain things in the text.
14:52:40 [jeanne]
... you end up increasing the size of text.
14:52:41 [Charles]
the suggestion was that the style guide should inform the author that the reader may have no technical knowledge
14:52:52 [jeanne]
... the tradeoff is length of text vs. simplicity of text.
14:53:42 [jeanne]
Shawn: This will require the use of some technology specific language. The information architecture prototype takes it to a less technical level.
14:54:46 [jeanne]
... higher level guidance will have less technical language.
14:54:59 [jeanne]
PJ: I have a question about "Language on Page". Are we stuck with what has been used before? Even that is unclear.
14:55:36 [Cyborg]
what i was saying is that we should write plain language as if explaining to your grandmother, if your grandmother is not technical or has no knowledge of WCAG
14:55:44 [jeanne]
Shawn: When we translate for plain language in the prototype, we are using the existing success criteria.
14:56:07 [jeanne]
... the information architecture prototype has the major change from web.
14:57:04 [jeanne]
Cyborg: I found it helpful to use the Understanding doc. I can try my hand at some of the more technical SC. It is hard for people to make it more simple.
14:57:55 [jeanne]
Shawn: Please do. Then we can review the results. I understand the technical standards, but I'm very bad at plain language. If you can help with the plain language, that's the part I struggle with.
14:58:28 [jeanne]
PJ: Will we have a glossary?
14:58:51 [jeanne]
Shawn: We will, but we will try to keep it short.
14:59:03 [jeanne]
PJ: Technical concepts in plain language makes things very hard.
15:00:00 [jeanne]
... when you try to simplify technical concepts into plain language, you often have to go back to very simple concepts and explain the over and over. It's the base of language of the page. In order to define it, it becomes a lot of extra words.
15:00:14 [jeanne]
... the distinctions become hard to overcome on the fly.
15:00:44 [jeanne]
... if there is a glossary, you can reuse the language of the concept.
15:01:05 [jeanne]
Cyborg: One is a Get Started page that shouldn't need a lot of glossary
15:01:25 [jeanne]
... can we give a hover highlight with the definitions (is that accessible?)
15:01:55 [jeanne]
PJ: Hover doesn't work on my phone
15:02:09 [jeanne]
Shawn: We are getting into the weeds of technical implementation
15:02:39 [jeanne]
... there is other work going on in Personalization that we can also use. We can ask EO
15:03:00 [jeanne]
Charles: Assume there will be a glossary.
15:03:13 [jeanne]
... we will figure out the architecture.
15:05:01 [jeanne]
Jeanne: We will have multiple glossaries: A dictionary for people who are writing the guidance. One for people trying to understand the guidance.
15:06:16 [jeanne]
Shawn: Having two glossaries is confusing. Having a dictionary in the Style Guide for writing will be helpful.
15:06:35 [jeanne]
Cyborg: The page links to documents that are not Plain Language.
15:07:29 [jeanne]
Shawn: When John drafted this, he was drafting the overall guidance, he linked to the Techniques, knowing that he would have to translate them as well, but we aren't trying to do that yet.
15:07:55 [jeanne]
Charles: Another approach is to link to the more ancillary information
15:08:23 [jeanne]
Cyborg: The other is to just show a simple example. These links couild be in the Methods under the Develop tab.
15:10:04 [jeanne]
Charles: We are still not there with plain language. The distinction is between language of the page, and the language of the part. If that isn't clear, then we are still off the mark.
15:11:09 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #silver
15:12:06 [jeanne]
Jeanne: One of the people working on Information Architecture is working on combining Language of Page and Language of Parts.
15:13:00 [jeanne]
Cyborg: We need to group the existing SC for the testing.
15:13:09 [jeanne]
Jeanne: Good idea, who would like to work on it?
15:13:22 [jeanne]
Charles: We still need to validate by existing success criteria
15:13:50 [jeanne]
PJ: We wouild have to subdivide the Methods
15:14:01 [jeanne]
Jeanne: We could do that with the tagging engine
15:15:11 [jeanne]
Shawn: That's a good thing for the Methods to show multiple ways of doing things in a specific technology
15:15:13 [Cyborg]
examples in plain language prototype should themselves be in plain language, not links to non-plain language sources
15:15:36 [Cyborg]
the first why should clarify the summary (summary is what, where, when).
15:15:46 [jeanne]
Charles: If we combine success criteria, are we making it more complex and less simple.
15:16:08 [Cyborg]
reduce need for glossary by keeping language of "get started" page as simple as possible
15:16:26 [Cyborg]
hover over for glossary terms is better, if we can do that across technology
15:16:42 [jeanne]
Charles: We should do the exercise of combining the success criteria, vs keeping it separate.
15:18:50 [Lauriat]
15:19:16 [Cyborg]
is that the right one or the wrong one?
15:19:33 [jeanne]
Jeanne: We have asked the Accessiiblity Guidelines Working Group to help us find the edge cases of success criteria that need to be combined, and others, like 1.3.1 that need to be split up.
15:19:39 [Cyborg]
i can only see a summary
15:21:02 [Lauriat]
Original: 2.4.3 Focus Order (Level A) If a Web page can be navigated sequentially and the navigation sequences affect meaning or operation, focusable components receive focus in an order that preserves meaning and operability.
15:21:34 [Lauriat]
Focus order: Ensure that the order of focus positions is in line with users' task sequence.
15:21:53 [Lauriat]
Keyboard user engage in a task by tabbing through focusable elements like links, buttons, or form fields. The current tab position gets the focus. The order of focus positions should follow the sequence and logic of the task. When interactive components open on top of content, they must receive focus. Closing such components must move the focus back to the point that brought them up.
15:22:05 [jeanne]
15:23:43 [jeanne]
Shawn: This example is still tied to a web page, so there is still work in making it more technology neutral.
15:24:17 [kirkwood]
I agree that ‘the last bit’ is tricky / difficult
15:24:25 [jeanne]
Detlev: I think the last part is too specific and tricky. There was a recent discussion where the trigger should move, for example in a table, you might want to move to the next cell.
15:24:35 [jeanne]
... it is one of the most pervasive problems
15:25:08 [jeanne]
... many frameworks don't manage the focus management well. It probably should become a methods
15:25:22 [jeanne]
... it can also apply to a PDF or a web application.
15:25:22 [kirkwood]
Maybe it should be stuck in as ‘for example’
15:25:29 [jeanne]
... it's just a draft.
15:26:03 [jeanne]
PJ: Focus position is an example of a glossary.
15:26:15 [jeanne]
Charles: It would need to be defined in context or be available.
15:26:15 [kirkwood]
very good put ‘focus’ in quotes?
15:26:54 [jeanne]
Charles: The short summary could say "reading"
15:27:43 [jeanne]
Detlev: Reading is a task. I wanted something wider than reading. With interactive things it isn't. I had a hard time pinning it down to task. It becomes more complex. You may have two different things that are mapped into task.
15:28:43 [jeanne]
Cyborg: Maybe one thing that could help. The Summary is the piece that I did last. I wrote the Why, then the Who, then the How, and the Examples. The Summary was more of the Abstract. There are pieces of what you have written that could go into the other sections.
15:29:17 [jeanne]
Charles: Keyboard user is who it effects and why. Keyboard focus could be under Methods.
15:30:32 [Cyborg]
can we do summary last - as an option - as if it were an abstracdt?
15:30:34 [Cyborg]
15:30:35 [jeanne]
Cyborg: Could we add to the Style Guide that people write the Summary last, because you have already written
15:30:57 [jeanne]
... all the things you want to say and can pick out the highlights?
15:31:09 [jeanne]
Charles: You should write it as a suggestion.
15:31:29 [jeanne]
Jeanne: I will add to the notes to the Style Guide team.
15:42:25 [stevelee_]
stevelee_ has joined #silver
15:49:18 [stevelee_]
stevelee_ has joined #silver
15:54:12 [stevelee__]
stevelee__ has joined #silver
15:57:45 [kirkwood]
kirkwood has joined #silver
16:31:15 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
17:06:23 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
17:28:44 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #silver
18:40:00 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
19:45:46 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #silver
21:24:57 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
21:53:02 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #silver
22:02:02 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver
22:11:00 [johnkirkwood]
johnkirkwood has joined #silver
22:19:45 [mikeCrab_]
mikeCrab_ has joined #silver
22:26:30 [johnkirkwood]
johnkirkwood has joined #silver
22:30:33 [johnkirkwood]
johnkirkwood has joined #silver
22:32:34 [mikeCrabb]
mikeCrabb has joined #silver