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16:10:01 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:10:01 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:10:01 <ivan> Chair: wendy
16:10:01 <ivan> Date: 2018-11-12
16:10:01 <ivan> Regrets+ makoto, franco, rachel, rkwright
16:10:01 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Nov/0013.html
16:10:02 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting 2018-11-12: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Nov/0013.html
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16:57:29 <wendyreid> present+
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16:57:51 <tzviya> s/present_//
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16:59:53 <yanni> Hi I'm Yanni (Yu-Wei) form TDPF
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17:00:09 <yanni> s/form/from
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17:02:14 <Avneesh> ISO is interesting for those who love numbers
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17:03:41 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
17:03:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tzviya
17:03:56 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
17:03:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jun_Gamo
17:04:22 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
17:04:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dauwhe
17:04:31 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
17:04:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:04:50 <MustLazMS> present+
17:04:50 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
17:04:50 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose romain
17:04:53 <yanni> present+ Yanni
17:05:06 <Jun_Gamo> i am on, but sorry can't scribe
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17:05:17 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
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17:05:52 <dauwhe> wendyreid: welcome everyone
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17:05:55 <clapierre> present+
17:06:04 <dauwhe> ... topic: last week's minutes
17:06:04 <duga> present+
17:06:08 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-11-05-pwg.html
17:06:17 <dauwhe> dauwhe: i approve
17:06:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: approve
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17:06:28 <dauwhe> wendyreid: minutes are approved
17:06:37 <dauwhe> ... new members this week!
17:06:39 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes approved
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17:06:51 <danielweck> present+
17:07:01 <leonardr> Present+ Leonard
17:07:04 <dauwhe> ???: I'm Yanni from Taiwan
17:07:12 <ivan> s/???/yanni
17:07:15 <dauwhe> s/???/yanni/
17:07:21 <dauwhe> Topic: origins and web publications
17:07:26 <garth> q?
17:07:54 <dauwhe> danielweck: hello everyone
17:08:14 <dauwhe> ... do we have an issue that points to a problem?
17:08:15 <ivan> present+ danielweck
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17:08:36 <laudrain> Present+
17:08:37 <dauwhe> tzviya: a lot of people in the group aren't familiar with the issue
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17:08:43 <dauwhe> ... an overview would be helpful
17:08:45 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/321 is the issue leading to this
17:08:46 <leonardr> Q+
17:09:10 <dauwhe> danielweck: jiminy wrote eloquently described the history of the origin problem on the web
17:09:17 <dauwhe> ... and the legacy problems we live with
17:09:23 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues?page=1&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed
17:09:27 <dauwhe> ... and how new things on web are built with origin in mind
17:09:35 <dauwhe> ... I can summarize how it impacts us
17:10:09 <dauwhe> ... there are JS apis in web browsers that will rely on a set of security rules
17:10:26 <dauwhe> ... and there is functionality that will be disabled based on those rules, regardless of whether script is used
17:10:36 <dauwhe> ... in CSS fonts are affected by origins
17:10:48 <dauwhe> ... it's about the https, address, port number
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17:10:58 <dauwhe> ... why is that relevant in web publications?
17:11:05 <dauwhe> ... we have to obey the rules of the web
17:11:10 <dauwhe> ... and it goes back to EPUB
17:11:17 <dauwhe> ...where it was underspecified
17:11:33 <dauwhe> ... so EPUB reading systems used weird tricks to bring stuff into webviews
17:11:43 <dauwhe> ... but that's underspecified
17:11:51 <dauwhe> ... so most reading systems implement a content server
17:12:00 <dauwhe> ... with an IP address and port number
17:12:24 <dauwhe> ... so that when we serve content we don't enable one publication script to acccess a different publication
17:12:37 <dauwhe> ... think of a publication with a built-in user preference
17:12:42 <wolfgang> s/acccess/access/
17:13:00 <dauwhe> ... that preference would be saveed in localstorage or something
17:13:04 <dauwhe> ... that should be sandboxed
17:13:14 <wolfgang> s/saveed/saved/
17:13:20 <dauwhe> ... and origin is a mechanism for content authors to control what is available to who
17:13:40 <dauwhe> ... on the web we have to be mindful that origin is important
17:13:57 <dauwhe> ... and we need to consider the restrictions we put on content
17:14:15 <dauwhe> ... there are issues around service workers, which depends on scope and is sensitive to origins
17:14:30 <dauwhe> leonardr: let me add a bit
17:14:50 <dauwhe> ... I gave a preso on this at the first F2F in NY
17:15:13 <dauwhe> ... when web content is instantiated in a browser or reading system or any ua
17:15:22 <dauwhe> ... that content is instantiated in a context
17:15:36 <garth> q?
17:15:36 <dauwhe> ... the origin is what defines the security  level and infrastructure for the context
17:15:43 <wendyreid> ack leonardr
17:15:44 <garth> ack leonardr
17:15:51 <dauwhe> ... if you're offline, for example, there's a null origin
17:15:59 <dauwhe> ... then it is an insecure context
17:16:13 <dauwhe> ... when contexts are insecure many JS APIs can't run. they are not allowed to.
17:16:25 <dauwhe> ... this includes some interactivity, like access to geolocation
17:16:32 <dauwhe> ... or microphones or cameras
17:16:50 <dauwhe> ... but if you have an origin, and the origin is secure (https) then you can access that stuff
17:17:29 <dauwhe> ... then you run into cross-site stuff. CORS can allow fonts from a different origin.
17:17:44 <dauwhe> ... many publishers are hosting books for various authors
17:17:56 <dauwhe> ... you don't want the script from one pub to access another publication
17:18:18 <dauwhe> ... but if they're both on kobo.com, then they are on the same domain and so there's nothing to prevent from a publication talking to another
17:18:35 <dauwhe> ... there is talk in the web security task force about suborigins, to address this problem
17:18:36 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
17:18:51 <danielweck> Related issue (discussion about HTTP CORS headers): https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/352#issuecomment-435913228
17:19:01 <garth> q?
17:19:17 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya
17:19:44 <tzviya> dauwhe: It feels like we haven't made fundamental decisions. Does the manifest have to be same origin as entry page?
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17:20:28 <tzviya> ...I've had concerns that if WP is just a collection of stuff that are glued together with a manifest, then it leaves open the possibility of someone creating a publication without my consent.
17:20:40 <tzviya> ...We should consider whether some pieces MUST be same origin.
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17:21:32 <garth> q?
17:21:32 <dkaplan3> q+
17:21:33 <tzviya> ... A lot of us have had an EPUB-ish model in mind. If I create a publication at Hachette, it will end up on a Kobo origin. The Web has looked at this a lot, and we need to consider what we're doing.
17:21:43 <garth> ack dkaplan3
17:21:51 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: add to what dave says
17:21:52 <garth> ack dkaplan
17:22:04 <dauwhe> ... not all of everyone's requirements are compatible, they can't co-exist
17:22:17 <dauwhe> ... early on, some requreiments are about anthologies, which is a valid use case
17:22:27 <dauwhe> ... and security and rights means there are limits
17:22:33 <ivan> q+
17:22:35 <tzviya> TAG Findings on distributed and syndicated content https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/distributed-content/
17:22:36 <wendyreid> scribenick: dauwhe
17:22:39 <wolfgang> s/requreiments/requirements/
17:22:45 <dauwhe> ... it's not just a technological limitation; there are competing priorities, and one of them is going to win
17:22:49 <garth> ack ivan
17:22:51 <wendyreid> ack ivan
17:22:58 <dauwhe> ivan: the question for me is
17:23:07 <tzviya> q+
17:23:08 <dauwhe> ... what of this is something that should be part of the specification
17:23:17 <bigbluehat> q+
17:23:21 <dauwhe> ... and what should be part of an accompanying document on limitations
17:23:31 <leonardr> https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-suborigins - suborigins work
17:23:39 <dauwhe> ... the Q that dave was asking, should manifest be same domain as entry page
17:23:52 <dauwhe> ... if they are on different domains than getting to manifest might be problematic
17:24:07 <dauwhe> ... but if I publish my manifest with CORS flags set it's a deployment question
17:24:34 <duga> +1 to Ivan's comments
17:24:35 <dauwhe> ... so this might be a deployment question
17:24:43 <dauwhe> ... but it's not something that WPUB defines
17:24:51 <dauwhe> ... just as HTML does not define these things
17:24:57 <danielweck> +1 Ivan
17:24:58 <dauwhe> q+
17:24:58 <garth> q?
17:25:03 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
17:25:11 <Hadrien> q+
17:25:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: one issue that we keep kicking down the road is offlining
17:25:26 <dauwhe> ... which is associated with packaging but is not the same
17:25:31 <dauwhe> ... and this is related to the boundaries
17:25:41 <dauwhe> ... which we've defined philosophically
17:25:56 <dauwhe> ... I'm not familiar enough with SWs to know how they operate,a nd that CORS is an issue
17:26:13 <dauwhe> ... we're handwaving about offlining, but we'll have to face origins in reality
17:26:22 <dauwhe> ... and cross-origin might be causing problems
17:26:29 <dauwhe> ... so we may have to prioritize our requirements
17:26:40 <romain> q?
17:26:55 <wendyreid> ack bigbluehat
17:27:05 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/104
17:27:08 <dkaplan3> Basically, Tzviya is saying specifics of my general point: we have competing and incompatible requirements, and ultimately one of them will win.
17:27:19 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: issue 104 around browsing contexts...
17:27:22 <dkaplan3> (possibly incompatible.)
17:27:44 <dauwhe> ... beyond the origin idea, and we still haven't answered the question about what environment this spec is operating in
17:28:00 <dauwhe> ... just like HTML is for browers, but other user agents might use it for PDF generation or something
17:28:09 <dauwhe> ... in which case the UAs might not follow all the rules
17:28:11 <wolfgang> s/browers/browsers/
17:28:19 <dauwhe> ... HTML defines origins and browsing contexts
17:28:46 <dauwhe> ... are web publication intended to be run primarily in browsers, and thus any user agent should expect to operate in those confines
17:28:52 <dauwhe> ... and we'd lean on web app security
17:29:08 <dauwhe> ... or are we going to redefine those things, and craft our own user agent definition
17:29:29 <dauwhe> ... that uses OWP content, but might not care about origins etc
17:29:37 <garth> q?
17:29:40 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
17:30:30 <wolfgang> dauwhe: we need to be aware that specs may enable bad things
17:30:33 <laudrain> +1 to Dave
17:30:34 <tzviya> +1 dauwhe
17:30:35 <dauwhe> dauwhe: let's be careful about the effects of our tecchnology
17:30:56 <romain> +1
17:31:03 <dauwhe> s/tecchnology/technology/
17:31:09 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
17:31:10 <wolfgang> s/tecchnology/technology/
17:31:21 <dauwhe> Hadrien: I'm uncomfortable with the way we describe those issues
17:31:31 <dauwhe> ... a lot of it comes down to how you implement the affordances
17:31:36 <dauwhe> ... we say offlining or packaging
17:31:45 <dauwhe> ... very diff issues depending how you implement
17:31:58 <dauwhe> ... the audio book example... I used a previously hosted audiobook
17:32:13 <dauwhe> ... the UA is using an audio element in html, so I don't have issues with origins
17:32:13 <duga> q+
17:32:27 <dauwhe> ... so it's hard to talk about vague things, as it depends on how we implement
17:32:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:32:55 <dkaplan3> q+
17:32:55 <dauwhe> duga: responding to some things that tzviya and dave
17:33:10 <dauwhe> ... I"m worrying about limiting what we can do based on how things work today
17:33:29 <dauwhe> ... like if we restrict what we can do based on the security model of service workers, and then that changes later
17:33:44 <dauwhe> ... I might want to have stuff in another doc on the realities of deployement today
17:33:57 <dauwhe> ... to what dave said about white supremacists
17:34:21 <dauwhe> ... that's an abuse of origins, and is more about rights management
17:34:27 <garth> q?
17:34:31 <wendyreid> ack dkaplan3
17:34:32 <dauwhe> ... and it seems dangerous to use a security model to enforce rights
17:34:40 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: there are tech limits and functional requirements
17:34:44 <wendyreid> ack dkaplan
17:34:47 <dauwhe> ...they're differeent and they get conflated
17:34:57 <dauwhe> ... we need to keep them separate
17:35:08 <wolfgang> s/differeent/different/
17:35:10 <dauwhe> ... the set of requirements: what must we allow, what must we forbid
17:35:21 <dauwhe> ... I want to move away from Dave's specific example
17:35:48 <dauwhe> ... and say that there might be a functional requirement that you can't take your stuff without perrmission
17:35:57 <dauwhe> ... and there are technical limitations
17:36:10 <wolfgang> s/perrmission/permission/
17:36:14 <dauwhe> ... so we must make sure our tech enables our functional requirements
17:36:49 <dauwhe> ... my Inner Ivan says that the technology today is all the technology we have. We have to write around today's technology
17:37:18 <dauwhe> ... my interpretations of Dave's statement, wasn't about the copyright, but we can't just be building tech and pretending what anyone does with it is not our fault
17:37:25 <dauwhe> ... we don't want to be Oppenheimer
17:37:31 <dauwhe> ... let's be respoinsible about our specs
17:37:48 <wolfgang> s/respoinsible/responsible/
17:37:52 <dauwhe> ... and let's be clear about functional requirements, and distinguish them from the technology that enables them
17:38:16 <dauwhe> Topic: Tables of Contents
17:38:30 <dauwhe> ivan: what is, if any, the next step re: origins
17:38:56 <dauwhe> garth: is the inner or outer ivan proposing that we don't put origin stuff in our spec
17:39:11 <dauwhe> ivan: fundamentally, yes
17:39:31 <dauwhe> ... there are specific questions, because origins is part of our text on retrieving the manifest
17:39:53 <tzviya> q+
17:39:53 <dauwhe> ... the other question which we must have, are there security issue that we must mention and describe
17:40:02 <zheng_xu> q+
17:40:03 <dauwhe> ... I know this is a horizontal review requirement
17:40:17 <dauwhe> ... and neither the inner nor outer ivan has any idea
17:40:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: I want to ask the people in the group who understand this to contribute. I like Deborah's idea of functional requirements
17:41:07 <dauwhe> ... we don't need a task force, but there is some work to be done
17:41:11 <dauwhe> ... just a list of stuff
17:41:18 <danielweck> Sure :)
17:41:24 <dauwhe> dauwhe: sure
17:41:31 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
17:41:33 <danielweck> I'm sure Jiminy will be delighted :)
17:41:35 <wendyreid> ack zheng_xu
17:41:40 <dauwhe> zheng_xu: I understand origin is a big issue
17:41:41 <ivan> present+ zheng_xu
17:42:00 <dauwhe> ... I wonder if we can get some requirements we can put this origin stuff into a spec
17:42:09 <timCole> q+
17:42:16 <dauwhe> ... will it be helpful to create task force?
17:42:36 <dauwhe> ... if we put each book ID into subdomain we remove the issue
17:42:46 <wendyreid> ack timCole
17:42:47 <dauwhe> timCole: related to this
17:42:49 <ivan> present+ timCole
17:42:58 <dauwhe> ... part of the WG's job is to talk to other WGs
17:43:15 <dauwhe> ... Leonard mentioned suborigins. We should probably provide them with use cases
17:43:29 <dauwhe> ... we should probably talk about how a more granular CORS would help
17:43:49 <dauwhe> ... I want cross-origin with these domains, but not those domains
17:43:51 <leonardr> +1 on de-origining
17:44:11 <bigbluehat> q+
17:44:11 <dauwhe> ... a task force to look at this, but to also inform other w3c work. I would be happy to participate.
17:44:14 <dauwhe> wendyreid: OK
17:44:33 <dauwhe> ... let's move on to TOCs. Some people should get together to talk about this
17:44:34 <bigbluehat> q-
17:44:45 <dauwhe> Simon Says Topic: TOCs
17:45:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's let JuanCorona show his stuff
17:45:09 <ivan> present+ JuanCorona
17:45:31 <dauwhe> JuanCorona: I do live demos too much :)
17:45:41 <dauwhe> (shows his screen)
17:45:54 <dauwhe> ... I have an algorithm
17:46:14 <laudrain> difficult to read Juan’s screen
17:46:16 <dauwhe> ... I got inspired by the h5zero project which implements outline
17:46:23 <dauwhe> ... before I had a treewalker
17:46:29 <dauwhe> ... walking the DOM is the first step
17:46:48 <dauwhe> ... there are some basic similiarity with the h5z algo
17:47:15 <dauwhe> ... you go through children, sibling, then callbacks for entering and exiting nodes
17:47:27 <dauwhe> ... the first thing it does is keep track of the nesting level
17:47:43 <dauwhe> ... it finds out if we are entering a list element
17:48:26 <dauwhe> I read the github issue about this, and we agreed that TOC out there in the web are typically using ul/ol and li
17:48:32 <dauwhe> there was an idea to use headings
17:48:46 <dauwhe> ... ivan talked about that
17:49:04 <dauwhe> ... this is purely about list items, but it's flexible, you can have lots of divs and spans
17:49:13 <dauwhe> ... identifiy list tags and save nesting level
17:49:51 <dauwhe> ... it identifies implicit paragraphs and nesting levels and links
17:49:58 <dauwhe> ... I have some test markup
17:50:05 <dauwhe> ... there are lots of edge cases
17:50:15 <dauwhe> ... and I don't know what data structure people expect
17:50:21 <dauwhe> ...but first I'll show the cool stuff
17:50:37 <dauwhe> ... I collected some samples from the web
17:50:44 <dauwhe> ... here's the wikipedia ebook article
17:51:03 <dauwhe> ... here's an epub3 nav
17:52:12 <dauwhe> ... here's one of our meeting minutes
17:52:21 <dauwhe> ... it's not that hard to get a structure out of this
17:52:26 <dauwhe> ... we talked about SpaceJam
17:52:46 <dauwhe> ... this is where the algo starts falling short
17:53:17 <dauwhe> ... I can print out the nodes in raw form
17:53:34 <dauwhe> ... with a list of anchors you can extract alt text, but it doesn't do that now
17:54:24 <ivan> regrets+ teenya
17:54:54 <ivan> regrets+ nick
17:55:09 <dauwhe> ... let's look at list item descendents, and a span with anchor inline with the span
17:55:39 <dauwhe> ... (more details of algo)
17:56:08 <ivan> regrets+ makoto
17:56:31 <dauwhe> ... I only spent a few hours on this, it could be made more robust, and try it with more examples
17:56:42 <dkaplan3> q+
17:56:43 <dauwhe> ... I'll gather my thoughts on where I found issues
17:56:43 <laudrain> q?
17:56:47 <laudrain> q+
17:56:49 <ivan> q+
17:56:52 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: I have a Q
17:56:56 <dauwhe> ... this is cool
17:57:04 <dauwhe> ... what is the takeaway for the WG writ large?
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17:58:02 <dauwhe> JuanCorona: the takeaway is that we got some results. this is all on my github. some of the samples.... we have a lot of flexibility, more than in EPUB and we can still get stuff that's workable and is still machine-readable
17:58:11 <dauwhe> ... that's the takeaway. You can do this.
17:58:16 <dauwhe> ... it can be refined.
17:58:35 <dauwhe> ... and we can loosen the rules in the EPUB3 spec, and still get a machine-readable TOC
17:58:52 <JuanCorona> https://github.com/jccr/toc-outliner
17:58:54 <garth> q?
17:59:02 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we are one minute from the end
17:59:03 <wendyreid> ack dkaplan
17:59:08 <wendyreid> ack laudrain
17:59:08 <dauwhe> laudrain: q about the algo
17:59:22 <dauwhe> ... in epub we use h1-h6 for titles of sections
17:59:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
18:00:02 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/291#issuecomment-437571943
18:00:38 <dauwhe> ivan: we need more on the structure of a toc, and the extraction algo must be specified. this is great because we need this.
18:00:58 <dauwhe> ... but the issue refers to other things. we should look there. I tried to find consensus.
18:01:15 <dauwhe> ... this is a very important issue.
18:01:47 <dauwhe> garth: may 6-7 F2F we have space at Google in Cambridge, MA in Kendall Square. Hotels are expensive, even though it is after the marathon.
18:02:11 <dauwhe> garth: 6-7 Monday, Tuesday.
18:02:24 <dauwhe> wendyreid: thanks everyone
18:02:36 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #pwg
18:02:43 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
18:02:59 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has left #pwg
18:04:21 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/12-pwg-minutes.html ivan
18:04:22 <ivan> zakim, bye
18:04:22 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:04:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:04:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, tzviya, gpellegrino, wolfgang, dkaplan, ivan, CHayes, dauwhe, zheng_xu, jbuehler, bigbluehat, JuanCorona, romain,
18:04:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
18:04:25 <Zakim> ... josh, Avneesh, Jun_Gamo, Teorge, George, Tim_Cole, Garth, Bill_Kasdorf, MustLazMS, Yanni, Chris_Maden, clapierre, duga, danielweck, Leonard, laudrain, timCole