15:00:05 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:05 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/11/08-tt-irc 15:00:07 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:00:07 Zakim has joined #tt 15:00:09 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:09 Date: 08 November 2018 15:00:17 scribe: nigel 15:00:24 Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/11/08-tt-irc 15:00:27 Chair: Nigel 15:00:30 Present+ Nigel 15:01:28 Present+ Mike, Glenn, 15:02:14 Present+ Thierry 15:02:40 Present+ Cyril 15:03:00 cyril has joined #tt 15:03:10 Present+ Andreas, Pierre 15:04:00 Topic: This meeting 15:05:42 Nigel: For today I see that Pierre suggested we cover future timelines and f2f meeting 15:05:46 .. at the top of the meeting. 15:05:54 Mike: I have 30-45 minutes only. 15:06:08 Nigel: I did want to take a spin through the profiles registry as well. 15:06:37 Nigel: I don't think there are any other main agenda topics. 15:06:55 .. But before we go ahead, I'd like to thank everyone for all the great work to get us 15:07:08 .. to Recommendation today for TTML1 3ED, TTML2 and IMSC 1.1 15:07:13 .. Congratulations everyone! 15:08:50 .. And sticking to the timeline we agreed about a year ago was fantastic - a really 15:08:56 .. impressive achievement. 15:09:10 atai has joined #tt 15:09:56 Topic: TTML Profile Registry 15:10:34 Nigel: We have 13 issues and 4 pull requests. 15:10:49 .. And Glenn has volunteered to Edit as well as Mike. 15:11:27 Glenn: I have started an edit to prepare a pull request. 15:12:30 .. I'm not ready to discuss any of the issues today. 15:12:40 Nigel: OK, any issues or pull requests that anyone does want to discuss? 15:13:25 Glenn: I'm hoping to wrap up the current issues in the next few weeks, probably by 15:13:27 .. 29th November. 15:14:43 mike has joined #tt 15:14:44 Nigel: I see that on #52 I asked for more detail and you added it to the issue, thank you. 15:15:27 Glenn: It would be good to review and approve the open pull requests in the next 15:15:29 .. week or so. 15:15:31 Nigel: +1 15:15:39 .. Two were open by me, one by Glenn. 15:15:54 Glenn: FYI I will not be available on the Thanksgiving week on 22nd Nov. 15:16:46 Nigel: It seems we are not quite ready to discuss the issues today, but I'd like to set a 15:18:13 .. target of publishing by the end of the year, which means getting to a finished draft 15:18:21 .. for approval by the end of November. 15:19:00 .. Does that seem reasonable? 15:19:02 Glenn: I think so 15:19:10 Nigel: Let's aim for that then. 15:19:33 Mike: Is the document still discoverable? 15:20:01 -> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ttml+profile+registry duckduckgo search results 15:20:22 Nigel: I see that the profile registry hits the top three spots on duckduckgo, so yes. 15:20:50 Topic: Joint f2f with EBU Timed Text group 15:21:09 Nigel: Thank you everyone who has contributed to working towards a proposed date 15:21:12 .. and location for this. 15:21:31 .. I think we've gravitated towards... 15:21:41 Andreas: At TPAC we discussed a joint meeting with the EBU Timed Text group, 15:21:53 .. especially to discuss further progress on adoption of one of the TTML specs for the 15:21:56 plh has joined #tt 15:22:05 .. live subtitling use case, and for that joint meeting we plan Friday morning Feb 1st, 15:22:17 .. from 0830-1230, location EBU in Geneva. 15:22:23 pal has joined #tt 15:22:29 .. Because this would of course not be sufficient to justify travelling and we may have 15:23:05 .. other things to discuss, we have also 31st January available for a TTWG meeting, the 15:23:18 .. complete Thursday. Then it depends on member preferences if we also take some of 15:23:27 .. the 30th January as the meeting day for TTWG. 15:23:40 .. The minimum I think that would be available for a TTWG meeting is Thursday complete 15:23:50 .. day and Friday morning for the joint meeting with the possible extension to use part 15:23:53 .. of Wednesday. 15:24:00 Nigel: Thank you for that. 15:24:16 .. In terms of agenda items, I think we would expect to discuss future requirements, 15:24:28 .. potentially Charter revisions for later in the year, and of course in the joint meeting, 15:24:39 .. adoption of live subtitles as you already mentioned Andreas. 15:25:21 Pierre: I would be available. I think it's pretty important to put a January meeting in 15:25:31 .. because if we don't have agreement on requirements by January then we won't have 15:25:38 .. any spec updates by year's end. 15:25:50 .. It looks like an important set of requirements will be around live, and a lot of the 15:26:01 .. requirements came from Europe, so it seems like a good idea to have that discussion 15:26:09 .. in Europe to make it easier for folks there to join. 15:26:29 Glenn: I'm available on 31st and 1st. The 30th would be tough. I presume we would 15:26:35 .. have the afternoon of Friday 1st. 15:26:50 s/t./t? 15:27:01 Andreas: Part of the membership would not be available on Friday afternoon, and we 15:27:14 .. also want EBU Timed Text group meetings to attend, and they will hopefully attend 15:27:23 .. on Friday morning. 15:27:31 Glenn: How about Saturday morning? 15:27:40 Andreas: I don't think that's really an option, let's see. 15:27:44 Nigel: I don't think so. 15:27:52 Pierre: 12 hours of meeting should be sufficient, right? 15:28:02 Glenn: Depends on whether we go into the meeting with new requirements documents 15:28:16 .. that nobody has looked at yet, as opposed to something we can review before the meeting. 15:28:33 Pierre: My thinking is this can only work if requirements have been submitted in December 15:28:43 .. so the meeting in January is strictly to address any concerns. 15:28:49 Glenn: Then we have to get on that right away. 15:29:01 Pierre: Yes. Using our experience over the last 12 months, we need completed requirements 15:29:15 .. by end of January, based on initial requirements from mid-December, at the latest. 15:29:25 .. Since we're not looking at major changes, that's probably realistic. 15:29:30 Glenn: TTML2 2nd Ed? 15:29:38 Pierre: And/or a module on live, however we want to do that. 15:29:48 .. You brought up Karaoke too, maybe that's another module or a 2nd Ed. 15:29:58 q+ 15:30:00 .. The scope should be a lot narrower than TTML 2020. 15:30:08 Glenn: We do need a requirements document initially. 15:30:22 Andreas: I also would be available the complete week. 15:30:34 .. One thing we could do is have a social dinner on Wednesday, it is always a good 15:30:46 .. setting for the next two days, and then use the complete day of Thursday and Friday 15:30:59 .. morning. Remembering Burlingame or the other f2f meetings we mostly had 15:31:38 .. 1.5 day complete meeting time where everybody was there, so I think that should sufficient. 15:31:51 Nigel: I think we should target 1.5 days and if that's not enough, then look at why. 15:31:56 Glenn: I'm happy with Andreas's proposal. 15:32:21 Andreas: Important information for those who don't know. At the same time, and a reason 15:32:32 .. why we looked at these days, there will be a Production Technology Seminar at EBU 15:32:44 .. from Tuesday to Thursday, so if you need to join that seminar that could help 15:32:57 .. justify travel. Even if you don't join that, there will be a lot of people at PTS, and it 15:33:06 .. may be very helpful for catching up with someone joining PTS. 15:33:25 Nigel: That's a good point, and I should declare I may be involved in a demo at PTS, 15:33:42 .. which is still under discussion, but if it goes ahead I'm not sure what the impact is 15:33:56 .. for my availability, on the other hand, it may be an excellent discussion point feeding 15:34:02 .. into our work on live contribution. 15:35:39 Cyril: I'm uncertain for that meeting, most likely I would be able to join. 15:36:00 Thierry: I think I should be able to join and should be available on those dates. 15:36:41 Nigel: Let's say this will go ahead unless something comes along that knocks the plan out. 15:36:48 .. We have enough consensus to go ahead with this as a plan. 15:36:53 .. Thank you everyone. 15:37:12 Thierry: Apart from that January f2f the only other one we plan is the next TPAC one, 15:37:15 .. for 2019? 15:37:21 Nigel: Yes I think so, most likely. 15:37:38 .. It's unusual for us to have more than 2 f2fs per year, in TTWG. 15:38:29 Topic: Timelines for our next year(ish) 15:38:43 Nigel: Following on from that, I think we have consensus to try to lock down requirements 15:38:56 .. for future technical reports in 2019, by the end of January. 15:39:29 .. The implication there is that if additional requirements come along later then our 15:39:39 .. default position would be to defer them until a later iteration. 15:39:57 .. Does that work for everyone? Does anyone want a different deadline for requirements? 15:40:13 Pierre: I think we should say by the end of January, we should have solid accepted 15:40:25 .. requirements, subject to minor tweaks. I would say we should set a deadline of 15:40:35 .. mid-December to submit initial requirements so that it gives us a good month and 15:40:47 .. a half to discuss and understand them and identify outstanding issues. Maybe 15:40:53 .. Dec 20th or Dec 13th? 15:41:31 Nigel: I would aim for our last meeting of the year, Dec 20th. 15:41:44 Glenn: I would propose a wiki page that people can edit to create a requirements 15:41:45 .. document. 15:41:56 Pierre: What about using Github and having people submit requirements. 15:42:32 Nigel: I think that would work, but we don't have a repo for the group, and I think we're 15:42:43 .. talking about generic requirements not necessarily tied to any particular document. 15:43:00 Glenn: In the past I have suggested a group repo for policy things for the WG. 15:43:40 Nigel: Yes, and others have suggested it. 15:43:49 Glenn: Can we have a tt-requirements repo? 15:44:02 Nigel: I suggest a ttwg repo and add issues with future-requirements as a label. 15:44:08 Pierre: I would create a tt-reqs repo. 15:44:23 Glenn: That sounds good. And if you want another ttwg repo for policy stuff that would be good. 15:44:47 Nigel: That works for me, I'm easy either way. 15:44:53 Thierry: Should I create one or two? 15:45:12 Glenn: I suggest two, ttreqs and ttwg 15:45:19 Nigel: I like the dash, tt-reqs 15:45:31 Pierre: I prefer the dash 15:45:35 Thierry: Me too. 15:45:54 Nigel: There's the answer, Thierry, please create w3c/ttwg and w3c/tt-reqs 15:46:01 Thierry: Okay 15:46:46 Nigel: Back to the timeline, we should have agreement by Feb 1, by the end of the F2F, 15:46:53 .. so not strictly end of January. 15:47:48 .. Then we need to partition the requirements into documents, which will take a couple 15:47:58 .. of weeks, and then have a period of spec editing and test creation. 15:48:08 .. I would like to move to a model where we write tests with spec changes. 15:48:21 Thierry: We also need to consider Charter revision. If we have new deliverables then 15:48:32 .. it could be that we need to update our Charter. I discussed that with Philippe yesterday 15:48:40 .. and he said we should do that before May 2019. 15:48:54 Nigel: Yes, and we discussed that at TPAC and there was general agreement to make 15:49:07 .. a Charter revision targeting May 2019, which would effectively extend the Charter 15:49:26 .. duration from ending at May 2020 as now, to ending at May 2021. 15:49:43 .. I think this will be achievable. 15:49:56 Thierry: Yes. We should start working on this probably in February to get agreement 15:50:12 .. by W3M, AC review (4 weeks) etc so we probably need a draft Charter by end March 2019. 15:50:24 Nigel: Sounds achievable from this distance! 15:54:22 group: [discussion about potential f2f in TPAC 2019 and clashes with other industry events] 15:56:56 Nigel: In terms of rough timescale, please could you put a timeline together for us 15:57:14 .. Thierry? Aim for FPWDs around April, and Rec around 1 year from now. 15:58:34 Thierry: Yes I can do that. Why did you pick a year from now, given we may have a Charter 15:58:38 .. that goes beyond that? 15:58:55 Nigel: We haven't formally agreed this but I feel that a smaller scope and shorter 15:59:07 .. deadlines helps drive our behaviour and is more generally useful to industry at large, 15:59:16 .. even if that means another revision a year after that. 15:59:21 .. That's my view anyway. 15:59:44 Pierre: [also supports, apologies scribe missed it] 15:59:56 .. Thierry, the timeline really helped with our work this year, it can't be underestimated. 15:59:58 Nigel: +1 16:00:07 Thierry: Thank you for letting me know that you appreciate it. 16:00:19 Pierre: It worked so well that we actually published in advance, which I never thought I'd say! 16:00:33 Thierry: If that worked well then I'm ready to re-experience the same policy and make 16:00:37 .. that kind of document again. 16:01:11 Nigel: Testing the water, does anyone want us not to be deadline driven, and to 16:01:18 .. wait until we're ready with a defined scope? 16:01:30 Glenn: I think deadline driven is better, and if it doesn't make the cut then it gets pushed 16:01:35 .. out, and that's all. 16:04:14 Nigel: We have a tight timescale for the first part of our year, and an action for how to 16:04:19 .. proceed further. 16:04:42 Pierre: Nigel, if you could highlight the deadlines that would be helpful. 16:04:55 Nigel: When Thierry has made tt-reqs repo I will create the two milestones on that repo 16:05:13 .. and send an email about them, i.e. 20th Dec for initial requirements and 1st Feb for 16:05:17 .. finalised requirements. 16:05:21 Thierry: I will let you know. 16:05:23 Nigel: Thank you. 16:05:26 Topic: WebVTT 16:05:54 Thierry: WebVTT is in CR, been sitting there for some months now, and I'm not sure 16:06:05 .. there has been much activity going on for that spec. A few weeks ago David Singer 16:06:17 .. said that there was a lack of implementation and probably we could not fulfil the 16:06:30 .. exit criteria and therefore he suggested we move the document to a WG Note, and 16:06:47 .. I think some people agreed to that if I remember rightly, then on top of that Silvia 16:06:57 .. said she was aware of implementations in other products outside of browsers, so 16:07:19 .. the question is to evaluate what kind of implementations they are, polyfills, set top boxes 16:07:29 .. etc and evaluate the level of implementation in those products in order to fulfil 16:07:33 .. the exit criteria. 16:07:55 .. I want to add that Philippe said (I discussed with him yesterday) that WebVTT would 16:08:06 .. need to demonstrate implementability experience and get out of CR before the 16:08:21 .. re-charter. So that means if WebVTT does not have sufficient implementation 16:08:29 .. experience then it would not make it to the new Charter. 16:08:56 .. I need to ask Silvia more about Gary. 16:09:02 q+ 16:09:04 Nigel: So you're saying you want to spend some TTWG effort doing this? 16:09:19 Thierry: Yes, I will try to look at those products and see who can put effort into a test 16:09:28 .. suite and who will report on the implementations. 16:09:49 .. That sounds quite difficult. We are now in November so it is a hard goal to fulfil before 16:09:51 .. April. 16:11:40 Andreas: Why should we start something without the activity present here? As has 16:11:51 .. been pointed out several times, David is co-chairing the activity. 16:11:53 ack atai 16:12:11 Andreas: He made a proposal, but I think it would be useful if he joins the TTWG telco 16:12:24 .. to discuss the next steps. Without doing that it is a bit hard I think. I'm not sure how 16:12:33 .. this is driven by the group, what you are doing Thierry. At the moment I don't see a 16:12:49 .. clear strategy how to proceed one way or the other. It seems there are two directions 16:13:00 .. to take this in and the Chair should be present to guide this somehow. 16:16:41 q+ 16:19:01 group: [discussion off the record] 16:19:34 Glenn: I think the only way we can proceed with this is to take a sense of the group 16:19:47 .. and put a question on the agenda for a near future meeting, like make a decision on 16:20:06 .. whether to stop all work on WebVTT and publish as a Note and take no further 16:20:16 .. action or see if anyone comes out of the woodwork. 16:20:22 Nigel: Okay, thank you, noted. 16:20:25 ack atai 16:20:40 Andreas: I agree we should not start anything before it is clear that there is a 16:20:51 .. realistic strategy that can be covered by the right resource in the group. 16:21:07 Thierry: Just to add one more thing, if you look back a year ago, David had motivated 16:21:21 .. going to CR for different reasons, one that we had fulfilled WR, and the second that 16:21:33 .. we could get out of CR quickly because there are a lot of implementations. Myself, 16:21:48 .. I did a small test suite, and tested a lot of browsers, and my conclusion that I sent 16:21:59 .. to Philippe is that less than a third of the functionality was actually implemented, so 16:22:03 q+ 16:22:11 .. I was very sceptical about the level of implementation we can expect. I haven't tested 16:22:23 .. for a year, I don't know if the browsers are better. I think the expectation to exit CR 16:22:41 .. was high from David but it hasn't happened since then. 16:22:48 ack atai 16:23:01 Andreas: You know there are web platform tests for WebVTT, Apple spent some effort 16:23:12 .. doing that, and they're automated so you can see the coverage for those tests. I will 16:23:18 .. find the link. 16:23:28 Thierry: Please could you resend the link? 16:23:33 .. Also how complete is the test suite? 16:23:40 Andreas: I will send you the link, yes. 16:23:42 Thierry: Thank you. 16:23:44 s/ / 16:24:19 Topic: Meeting close 16:24:31 Nigel: Apologies I didn't ask for AOB at the head of the meeting. Is there any? 16:24:36 group: [silence] 16:24:51 Nigel: Okay that's a no. Thank you everyone, we'll meet same time next week as usual. 16:25:06 atai has left #tt 16:25:18 .. We've hit the end of our agenda! [adjourns meeting] 16:25:20 rrsagent, make minutes 16:25:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/08-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:26:21 Regrets: None 16:30:28 s/youresend/you resend 16:30:49 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:30:52 rrsagent, make minutes 16:30:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/08-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:35:14 nigel_ has joined #tt 16:46:42 dbaron has joined #tt 16:46:53 github-bot-, end topic 16:47:04 dbaron has left #tt 16:49:06 github-bot has joined #tt 18:00:12 tmichel has joined #tt 18:32:11 tm has joined #tt 18:43:37 Zakim has left #tt