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16:10:29 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
16:10:29 <ivan> Chair: Luc
16:10:29 <ivan> Date: 2018-11-06
16:10:29 <ivan> Regrets+ makoto, jkamata, brian
16:10:29 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Nov/0014.html
16:10:30 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-11-06: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Nov/0014.html
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17:03:44 <Julian_Calderazi> +Present
17:03:48 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
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17:04:26 <Karen> Luc: We are 21 now on irc
17:04:28 <Karen> ...and 13 on the phone
17:04:31 <Karen> ...let's start
17:04:41 <Karen> ...We had TPAC the week before last
17:04:41 <Rachel> present+
17:04:48 <Karen> ...We had an interesting report from Wendy Reid
17:04:51 <Ralph> -Present
17:04:53 <laudrain> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/11/publishing-at-tpac-2018/
17:04:53 <Karen> ...meant to put link in the agenda
17:04:59 <Karen> ...here it is in irc
17:05:11 <Karen> ...you will find interesting points about what happened during the f2f of the PubWG
17:05:17 <Karen> ...and links to minutes of day one and day two
17:05:32 <Karen> ...interesting to come back to if you want to know what happened, especially for the Publishing Working Group
17:05:47 <Karen> ...don't know if we have comments on general discussions or issues, but I would like to step on the main subject for today
17:05:59 <Karen> ...which is the discussion that started in the TPAC f2f session of PubWG
17:06:00 <ivan> -> Joint BG/WG meeting's minutes: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-23-pwg.html#section1
17:06:08 <Karen> ...the question of the priorities and changes with PubBG
17:06:25 <Karen> ...we discussed this after TPAC
17:06:37 <Karen> ...and have written a report for people at Hachette
17:06:45 <Karen> ...concerns for EPUB3.2 being finished by CG
17:06:52 <Karen> ...CG has approved the new spec of EPUB3.2
17:07:04 <Karen> ...but now we have issues about its promotion and deployment
17:07:10 <Karen> ...EPUB3.2 is in front of EPUB4
17:07:14 <Karen> ...in front of WG
17:07:18 <Karen> ...for 2020
17:07:27 <Karen> ...during this time we have EPUBCheck that is revised
17:07:33 <Karen> ...and will be ready for EPUB3.2 by 2019
17:07:40 <Karen> ...this was raised during the f2f session
17:07:45 <Karen> ...and it was a bit of a concern
17:07:50 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
17:07:56 <Karen> ...The big concern about EPUB3.2 is not being completely interoperable
17:08:01 <Karen> ...we know it has issues and bugs
17:08:09 <Karen> ...we know reading systems have bugs about EPUB3
17:08:20 <Karen> ...We had discussions about improving interop of EPUB3 among reading systems
17:08:35 <Karen> ...would be very important for CG to continue its work gathering all the bugs we know around the world
17:08:42 <Karen> ...so we have better pressure against reading systems
17:08:52 <Karen> ...but also the next steps for EPUB3.2 would be testing the features
17:09:04 <Karen> ...all the features of EPUB3.2, features that are "must" and "should"
17:09:14 <Karen> ...this was also raised during the f2f
17:09:19 <Karen> ...we had discussions about priorities
17:09:26 <Karen> ...An issue about audio books
17:09:29 <Karen> ...not yet possible in EPUB3
17:09:42 <Karen> ...but it's a business issue that it is not easy to distribute audio books
17:09:54 <Karen> ...we would expect the work on audio books from Web Publication WG would be useful
17:10:12 <Karen> ...had discussions on this subject where we saw a business use case for packaged audio books
17:10:21 <Karen> ...not in EPUB3 but in using work on Web Publishing
17:10:23 <Karen> ...Fourth item
17:10:27 <Karen> ...in Japan and Korea
17:10:41 <Karen> ...they prefer ISO and not W3C standards, so there is a need for EPUB3 as an ISO standard
17:10:50 <Karen> ...EPUB3.2 as it is today; there will soon be a CG not
17:10:53 <Karen> s/not/note
17:11:06 <Karen> ...it is not recognized as an ISO standard
17:11:10 <Karen> ..So we have this plan
17:11:21 <Karen> ...Idea is to make EPUB3.2 to move to a W3C Recommendation path
17:11:29 <Karen> ...EPUB3.2 should be promoted inside the Working Group
17:11:33 <Karen> ...promoted as a Recommendation
17:11:38 <Karen> ...and it has several meanings
17:11:48 <Karen> ...The PubWG would take the work of EPUB3.2 as a recommendation
17:11:56 <Karen> ...and beside the continuing work on Web Publication
17:12:13 <Karen> ...Web Publication work would continue in the WG and add the application of audio book as soon as possible
17:12:26 <Karen> ...we are speaking of a modular development or modular standard of web publication for audio books
17:12:35 <Karen> ...Because of difficulty thinking about EPUB3
17:12:43 <Karen> ...we would then post-pone or speak less about EPUB4
17:12:59 <Karen> ...that would be a consequence of adoption of Web Publication and Audio publication
17:13:08 <Karen> ...To start this work there is an obvious need to change the charter
17:13:19 <Karen> ...the current Web Publications WG charter does not reflect this
17:13:34 <Karen> ...it would have to reflect this and reflect difference between web publication and audio pub
17:13:47 <Karen> ...and we had an expression 'in the fridge' , later for EPUB4
17:13:50 <Karen> ...We know this rec track
17:14:10 <Karen> ...being possible through a new charter, would need testing of different features among reading systems
17:14:13 <Karen> ...testing comes urgently
17:14:28 <Karen> ...to have results of each feature to be tested against at least two working implementations
17:14:33 <Karen> ...this is a W3C requirement
17:14:43 <Karen> ...We imagine that during the time we work on rewriting a new charter
17:14:49 <Karen> ...to rewrite this change
17:14:57 <Karen> ...the CG would fulfill need of testing
17:15:05 <Karen> ...CG could work on what needs to be tested
17:15:13 <Karen> ...identify the 'should' and 'must'
17:15:24 <Karen> ...For EPUB community, would be good for testing to be thoroughly done
17:15:30 <Karen> ..maybe in a new EPUB test.org
17:15:37 <Karen> ...besides the bugs
17:15:53 <Karen> ...CG could start quickly on this and hopefully it would be available if we decide a rec track
17:16:13 <Karen> ...it is absolutely necessary for this testing to be done to go onto rec track
17:16:21 <Karen> ...So that is the proposed plan
17:16:27 <Karen> ...and PubBG needs to consider this plan
17:16:35 <Karen> ...I would like to present positive way to think about this
17:16:46 <Karen> ...There would be a lot of improvement on ineterop, testing and bug fixing
17:16:57 <Karen> ...it would have more pressure as a W3C rec track on reading systems
17:17:04 <wolfgang> s/ineterop/interop/
17:17:07 <Karen> ...and it would answer need for internationalization for ISO standards
17:17:13 <Karen> ...path for ISO to adopt W3C recs
17:17:19 <Karen> ...and not to rewrite a new EPUB standard
17:17:25 <Karen> ...it would be interesting to have this availble
17:17:31 <Karen> ...that's where my report stops
17:17:36 <Karen> ...but there are also issues
17:17:40 <Karen> ...and a negative way to present things
17:17:47 <Karen> ...Before presenting the negative side of things
17:18:03 <Karen> ...First of all, I would like to say that the PubBG does not have to decide today or tonight about rec track or not
17:18:23 <Karen> ...During TPAC we had Ivan say we need to know quickly what the PubBG thinks because it's a lot of work
17:18:29 <Karen> ...and we need to have the position of the PubBG
17:18:38 <Karen> ...Liisa and I know we cannot decide on just one call
17:18:46 <Karen> ...there will be more calls and a formal vote
17:18:54 <Karen> ...We have until end of November to decide
17:19:06 <Karen> ...Purpose of these calls is to build toward decision
17:19:20 <Karen> ...Liisa and I have started shared doc with pros and cons of moving EPUB3.2 to rec track
17:19:27 <jeff> +1 to spending the right amount of time to come up with a Business Group recommendation.
17:19:36 <Karen> ...The other side of the @...issues on this process
17:19:41 <Karen> ...is about things we expressed during TPAC
17:19:47 <Karen> ...and discussions in May
17:19:54 <Karen> ...We don't have infinite resources
17:19:59 <Karen> ...working on two, we need more resources
17:20:07 <Karen> ...or less work will get done at the same time
17:20:14 <Karen> ...working on charter will take energy from WG
17:20:33 <Karen> ...so less energy and less time to work on Web Publications and the audio portion that we have identified as urgent for the market
17:20:39 <Karen> ...There is an issue on resources
17:20:40 <MURATA> I'm wondering if we can establish another WG dedicated for 3.2
17:20:45 <Karen> ...and an issue on the maintenance of EPUB3
17:20:55 <Karen> ...with maintenance of EPUB3, writing this EPUB3.2 specification
17:20:56 <Ralph> [perhaps the Business Group could take the lead on drafting a WG charter?]
17:21:08 <Karen> ...it was in the CG, where publishing industry can contribute at no cost
17:21:17 <Karen> ...When we move to a WG, it will be necessary for publishers
17:21:31 <Karen> ...through PubBG or full member fees
17:21:36 <Karen> ...that is an issue for publishers
17:21:41 <Karen> ...We know that end of TPI
17:22:07 <Karen> ...we are doing their best effort to convince TPI members to become regular/full members of W3C, or at least participants in the PubBG
17:22:16 <Karen> ...but will not be able to convince everyone
17:22:19 <Karen> ...Same side of resources
17:22:26 <Karen> ...if we have less people, we will have less energy
17:22:32 <Karen> ...That is a second issue
17:22:41 <Karen> ...I saw a mail from Laurent Lemeur today
17:22:50 <Karen> ...may be difficulties about EPUB3.2 being a web standards
17:23:02 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
17:23:02 <Karen> ...as the TAG would say [W3C Technical Architecture Group]
17:23:10 <Karen> ...we cannot foresee an easy success
17:23:19 <garth> present+ Garth
17:23:24 <Karen> ...We cannot foresee an easy success for the charter to become a WG with these changes
17:23:34 <Karen> ...Also, I think about ISO for Japan and Asian people
17:23:36 <Ralph> [the Business Group can help by describing its vision of how EPUB helps advance the Web]
17:23:38 <dauwhe> q+ to comment on TAG review of EPUB
17:23:43 <Karen> ...there should be more Japanese people on the Working Group
17:23:52 <tzviya> q+ to comment on resources and involving TAG
17:23:53 <ivan> q+ to comment on "explainer"
17:24:05 <Karen> ...If there is a goal to bring EPUB3.2 to the rec track to prepare an ISO standard, this part of group should include more Japanese people
17:24:07 <Rachel> q+ to ask if we can see and contribute to the pro con list?
17:24:14 <Karen> ...I think there should be a chair or co-chair from Japan
17:24:18 <Karen> ...those are some issues to consider
17:24:25 <MURATA> +q
17:24:25 <Karen> ...We have to discuss among us during this call
17:24:29 <Karen> ...and through the mailing list
17:24:35 <Karen> ...using this document of pros and cons
17:24:42 <Karen> ...and use the next days and weeks to build our decision
17:24:58 <Karen> ...the PubBG has to build decision about EPUB3.2 going to rec track
17:25:13 <Karen> ...do we think as an industry we need to go to rec track
17:25:17 <Karen> ...we have to build our decision
17:25:22 <Karen> ...and we have to all contribute
17:25:31 <liisamk> draft pros, cons, questions doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing
17:25:31 <Avneesh> q+
17:25:32 <Karen> ...only 21 on irc now, but over 80 people in PubBG
17:25:44 <Karen> ...we will have a specific call for Asian people next week
17:25:53 <Karen> ...another BG call for all Asian people time slot
17:26:00 <Karen> ...and re-explain these issues
17:26:19 <Karen> ...there will be real participation of all the Business Group people; we have to build an informed decision
17:26:24 <Karen> ...That is the goal we have
17:26:26 <laudrain> Q?
17:26:40 <laudrain> Ack Dave
17:26:42 <Karen> ack Dauwhe
17:26:43 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to comment on TAG review of EPUB
17:26:46 <garth> ack dauwhe
17:26:49 <Rachel> q-
17:26:51 <Karen> Dave: Thank you, Luc for that very good summary of all the issues
17:27:03 <Karen> ...I don't think we can make the decision for rec track for EPUB in isolation
17:27:16 <tzviya> see Dave's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Nov/0022.html
17:27:17 <laudrain> q+
17:27:21 <Karen> ...We need a clear picture of how we want EPUB to evolve in the near future and how that relates to web publications
17:27:28 <Karen> ...some see these as two separate things
17:27:42 <Karen> ...I would want a clear picture of how we see these things evolving
17:27:53 <Karen> ...Also comment on people who know more about W3C process
17:28:06 <Karen> ...Could TAG really block something where architectural decisions have already been made?
17:28:07 <jeff> q+ to answer whether the TAG could block publication
17:28:10 <dauwhe> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Nov/0022.html
17:28:15 <Karen> ...I have written some up in greater detail at this link
17:28:26 <Karen> Luc: I would like to answer quickly on idea of isolation
17:28:40 <Karen> ...because my concern is that we are putting a lot of energy on EPUB3 being adopted
17:28:49 <Karen> ...and putting money on EPUBCheck
17:28:52 <MURATA> Three cheers!
17:28:55 <Karen> ...and many people from DAISY Consortium
17:29:02 <Karen> ...we have said this winter is EPUB3 winter
17:29:10 <Karen> ...when publishing industry as a whole comes to EPUB3
17:29:15 <Karen> ...and EPUB3.2 is our best card
17:29:22 <Karen> ...for the publishing industry there is a danger
17:29:25 <Karen> ...my personal view
17:29:34 <Karen> ...there is a danger if we post-pone EPUB3.2
17:29:40 <Karen> ...forgot to say the rec track of EPUB3.2
17:29:47 <Karen> ...would be on the CG note
17:29:51 <Karen> ...it is not a new spec
17:30:01 <Karen> ...should be what the CG has written to bring it as a rec specification
17:30:19 <Karen> ...should not be rewritten because we will lose the publishing industry and lose the battle of EPUB3 if we bring something new
17:30:23 <Karen> ...and we lose time
17:30:24 <liisamk> q?
17:30:25 <garth> +1 Luc
17:30:30 <Karen> scribenick: George
17:30:40 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:30:40 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to comment on resources and involving TAG
17:31:35 <garth> +1 Tzviya
17:32:01 <George> TS: We have epubcheck and implementers working on testing. We would get the best of both worlds with the testing moving forward...
17:32:18 <George> We want EPUB 3.2 to be successul no matter what we do.
17:32:30 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:32:30 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to comment on "explainer"
17:32:34 <George> We have a resource issue.
17:32:42 <wolfgang> s/successul/successful/
17:32:45 <laudrain> q-
17:33:34 <George> IH: The charter itself is simple to write. What we have to publish ..We need a document like what Dave has started. This document will be the important.
17:34:01 <George> The direction we are taking and what is written is sound and that there is a real business case for what we are doing.
17:34:37 <George> It is not the working group that will develop the charter the load is on a smaller group of people.
17:35:09 <laudrain> q?
17:35:09 <George> The business group that will have a larger role. The real core is like the one that Dave has started.
17:35:15 <laudrain> ack MURATA
17:35:45 <George> Makoto: I don't believe the Japanese need an ISO standard for 3.2.
17:36:13 <George> Hiroshi Kawamura is asking for the accessibility ISO standard.
17:36:45 <George> I don't believe the Japanese publishers will participate in W3C.
17:37:13 <George> There is a strong interest form accessibility, but not from publishers.
17:37:30 <wolfgang> s/form/from/
17:37:37 <George> We need underlying EPUB standards to have accessibility standards.
17:37:53 <laudrain> q?
17:37:59 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
17:38:06 <George> Makoto is not optomistic that Japanese will participate.
17:38:21 <wolfgang> s/optomistic/optimistic/
17:39:10 <George> Avneesh: If we want to put EPUB 3.2 to ISO, it may not be necessary through rec track.
17:39:38 <George> We want EPUB in ISO so the standard is before the countries.
17:40:06 <laudrain> q?
17:40:07 <George> The accessibility spec is not dependent of 3.2. The accessibility can apply to any version of EPUB.
17:40:46 <MURATA> Any version of EPUB*3*?
17:40:48 <George> Ralph: Makoto and Avneesh remind us that this community must come to concensis. I look forward to the intense discussion.
17:40:51 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ Technical Architecture Group [TAG] home page
17:41:02 <George> Regarding the TAG and here is a pointer.
17:41:39 <George> Three bullet items: the third bullet is to coordinate crosscheck archectual design.
17:42:02 <George>  and would like an explainer document.The TAG is asking questions
17:42:04 <dauwhe> https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers
17:42:10 <wolfgang> s/archectual/architectural/
17:42:36 <George> The expresession of concensis could be described in this technical explainer document.
17:42:49 <George> This can fram the questions we ask of the TAG.
17:42:49 <dauwhe> s/concensis/consensus/
17:43:01 <George> The TAG will focus on technical questions.
17:43:08 <MURATA> +q
17:43:20 <George> How does this proposed technology work with the existing web technology.
17:43:37 <ivan> s/fram /frame /
17:43:44 <George> In the course of answering questions, they can point out concerns and suggest paths forward.
17:44:01 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:44:01 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on the TAG's authority
17:44:02 <George> Butt, if the TAG has a clear concern,
17:44:16 <ivan> s/Butt/But/
17:44:17 <wolfgang> s/Butt/But/
17:44:29 <George> That is likley to influence the rest of the web community and would influence the director.
17:44:39 <MURATA> -q
17:44:47 <jeff> q-
17:44:48 <wolfgang> s/likley/likely/
17:44:50 <jeff> q+
17:44:51 <ivan> s/likley/likely/
17:44:56 <George> The TAG's archectual perspective does have significant influence across the web.
17:45:17 <George> We have a responsibility to explain EPUB and how it would work moving forward.
17:45:21 <laudrain> q?
17:45:27 <laudrain> ack Jeff
17:46:13 <laudrain> q+ for 2 practical points
17:46:13 <George> Jeff: Regarding what Makoto said, the assessment is that it is unlickley that the Japanese would not participate, I hope he would be wrong.
17:46:14 <Ralph> ralph: The BG could help by describing its vision of How EPUB helps advance the Web and this would be a good thing to include in the "explainer"
17:46:47 <MURATA> Not for 3.2 REC.  But for Publishing@W3C in general.
17:46:48 <George> Jeff mentioned several companies who have joined and that he is meeting with several publishers and asking them to participate.
17:47:01 <Ralph> s/and would influence the director/and would influence the W3C Members as they advise the Director on a proposed Working Group charter
17:47:14 <George> Overall I am trying to keep score, Luc's explanation reflected what I saw.
17:47:45 <George> But, as I look at the email thread, I was able to document seven different demensions of concern.
17:47:59 <George> We need to be thoughtful on how to bring this forward.
17:48:03 <wolfgang> s/demensions/dimensions/
17:48:17 <George> For example features that lack sufficient implementations.
17:48:32 <George> Dave said we need to map this to the overall direction.
17:48:56 <George> Lauren is concerned aobut the relation to the many groups.
17:49:06 <tzviya> q+
17:49:08 <rkwright> s/unlickley/unlikely
17:49:14 <wolfgang> s/aobut/about/
17:49:24 <George> The seventh is how exactly EPUB 3.2, audio books and web publications all fit together.
17:49:40 <rkwright> s/unlickley/unlikely/
17:49:46 <George> With this many demensions, perhaps a small group can boil down the positives.
17:50:04 <wolfgang> s/demensions/dimensions/
17:50:14 <George> They could come back with a proposal that touches on all the eemensions of the issues.
17:50:30 <wolfgang> s/eemensions/dimensions/
17:50:40 <George> Perhaps this small group could bring a mind meld of concensis to the group.
17:50:56 <George> Luc, Please list the issues.
17:50:57 <wolfgang> s/consensis/consensus/
17:51:07 <liisamk> Jeff's  dimensions of concerns: 7 dimensions of concern *  features that may lack sufficient implementation - makoto * map into the overall roadmap - Dave * who has responsibility for what - Laurent * relationship with the TAG * resources * business case * how will 3.2 and audiobooks and 4.0 going to fit together for time
17:51:27 <laudrain> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing
17:51:32 <George> Luc Liisa has prepared a shared document for pros and cons. Here is the link.
17:51:59 <jeff> rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/06-pbg-minutes.html jeff
17:52:01 <George> We should put the concerns on both sides in this document.
17:52:01 <liisamk> q+
17:52:10 <liisamk> ack laudrain
17:52:10 <Zakim> laudrain, you wanted to discuss 2 practical points
17:52:22 <George> We need to schedule a call for next Tuesday November 13.
17:52:50 <George> The normal time slot
17:53:34 <Avneesh> What is the Asian friendly time?
17:54:31 <liisamk> we have an extra call on the 13th for the asian time slot :)
17:54:38 <George> We need an invitation to go out for November 13 that uses the same time ad the December 18 call. There will be two calls one on November 13 and one on December 18.
17:55:03 <George> The agenda for the 13 will be the same
17:55:55 <George> In UTC it isIt might be 24 UTC.
17:56:02 <laudrain> q?
17:56:03 <Avneesh> 00 UTC is good for east asia but may not be for central Asia
17:56:48 <George> TS: Regarding What Jeff raised, we have a large decision to make. It is not reflecting on EPUB 3.2
17:56:55 <laudrain> q?
17:57:00 <tzviya> q-
17:57:02 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:57:23 <laudrain> q?
17:57:24 <George> Liisa: Pros cons and open questions are on the public document, all on one page.
17:57:29 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:57:33 <garth> Invite for next Tuesday [Asia time] sent (twice)
17:57:42 <George> Any more thoughts?
17:58:07 <jeff> q+
17:58:28 <laudrain> ack jeff
17:58:29 <George> We need time to build this decision. We need to have everybody on board. We are a small group and we need to spread the word.
17:58:57 <George> Jeff: It is not clear if we want to have a small group to develop a unified approach.
17:59:18 <liisamk> liisa will help with unification
17:59:21 <George> Who is willing to step and develop a specific proposal?
17:59:27 <tzviya> i will help
17:59:33 <laudrain> ok to help
17:59:42 <garth> Me three.
17:59:49 <garth> Thank you Luc!
17:59:50 <George> Liisa: I think a small group is coming together.
18:00:15 <George> Ivan, who will lead, we don't want to decide now, ubt it is a major question.
18:00:26 <garth> Liisa — woo hoo!
18:00:32 <George> Liss has volunteered to lead the small group.
18:00:40 <George> Goodbye!
18:00:42 <Julian_Calderazi> thank you all. bye!
18:00:52 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/06-pbg-minutes.html ivan
18:00:52 <ivan> zakim, bye
18:00:52 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:00:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:00:52 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, laudrain, Ralph_Swick, ivan_, Karen, george, tzviya, jeff, liisamk, bobbytung, makoto, Present, Julian_Calderazi,
18:00:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
18:00:55 <Zakim> ... rkwright, wolfgang, Avneesh, Rachel, Dan_Sanicola, Garth