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16:25:20 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:25:20 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:25:20 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:25:20 <ivan> Date: 2018-11-05
16:25:20 <ivan> Regrets+ timCole, makoto
16:25:20 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Nov/0000.html
16:25:20 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting 2018-11-05: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Nov/0000.html
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16:57:11 <dauwhe> present_
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16:57:27 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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16:57:56 <ivan> present+
16:57:59 <jasminemulliken> present+
16:58:01 <laudrain> present+
16:58:32 <ivan> present+ wendyreid
16:58:44 <ivan> present+ george
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17:00:06 <George> present+ George
17:00:26 <jbuehler> present+ jbuehler
17:00:57 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
17:01:00 <bigbluehat> present+
17:01:14 <ivan> present+ Rachel
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17:01:18 <franco> present+
17:01:29 <Vlad> present+
17:01:33 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
17:02:19 <Teenya> cannot scribe due to arthritis cannot type fast enough. But happy to help clean up anything if needed.
17:02:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: we'll get started in another minute
17:02:27 <josh> josh has joined #pwg
17:02:33 <ivan> present+ Teenya
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17:02:46 <mgarrish> present+
17:02:50 <Avneesh> present+
17:02:52 <Teenya> also for some  reason i am getting a "not secure" warning i my browser on the irc
17:02:53 <caitlingebhard> present+
17:02:53 <dauwhe> ... let's get started
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17:03:06 <dauwhe> ... did we approve minutes before F2F?
17:03:09 <dauwhe> ivan: no
17:03:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: let me get the link...
17:03:23 <rkwright> present+
17:03:37 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-15-pwg.html
17:03:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe: let's approve them
17:03:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: minutes approved
17:03:57 <ivan> resolved: minutes form 15 oct approved
17:04:00 <marisa> present+
17:04:03 <ivan> s/form/from/
17:04:05 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-22-pwg.html
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17:04:08 <duga> present+
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17:04:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: here are minutes from TPAC day one
17:04:15 <garth> present+ Garth
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17:05:00 <Hadrien> present+
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17:05:04 <ivan> resolved: minutes of 1st f2f day meeting approved
17:05:06 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-23-pwg.html
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17:05:14 <clapierre> present+
17:05:17 <JuanCorona> present+
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17:05:59 <romain> present+
17:06:05 <BenWaltersMS> present+
17:06:08 <tzviya> first day minutes has an equal sign in date, second day says "minutes" twice
17:06:12 <ivan> resolved: minutes of the 2nd f2f day meeting approved
17:06:16 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #pwg
17:06:18 <dauwhe> tzviya: those minutes are approved as well
17:06:25 <laurentlemeur> present+
17:06:28 <dauwhe> Topic: TPAC memories
17:06:28 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg
17:06:31 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/11/publishing-at-tpac-2018/
17:06:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: wendyreid wrote a nice blog post
17:06:38 <BenSchroeter> present+
17:06:40 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/11/publishing-at-tpac-2018/
17:06:47 <dauwhe> ... please read through it
17:07:17 <CHayes> CHayes has joined #pwg
17:07:22 <dauwhe> ... feel free to comment on anything that stood out to them
17:07:36 <dauwhe> q?
17:07:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a new member
17:07:59 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pwg
17:08:00 <dauwhe> CHayes: I'm the metadata manager at Norton
17:08:05 <ivan> present+ CHayes
17:08:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: we were going over our meeting in Lyon a few weeks ago
17:08:59 <dauwhe> George: thanks for writing the blog post!
17:09:02 <laudrain> +1
17:09:05 <ivan> +1000
17:09:13 <dauwhe> Topic: rechartering
17:09:17 <Hadrien> there's a long and confusing discussion on the mailing list about EPUB 3.2, doesn't feel like there's much consensus
17:09:33 <laudrain> q?
17:09:37 <dauwhe> tzviya: Hadrien, did you have a comment?
17:10:02 <Ralph> present+ Ralph_Swick
17:11:01 <garth> q?
17:11:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: if we choose to bring 3.2 into the wg, or if we choose not to work on some things in our charter than we need to recharter
17:11:16 <dauwhe> ... we need to discuss what to include
17:11:33 <dauwhe> ... the charter will be written by the chairs, ivan, the pub champion, with input with the SC, etc
17:11:43 <dauwhe> ... the SC did have some discussions about this on Friday
17:11:54 <dauwhe> ... it looks likely that we will bring EPUB 3.2 into the working group
17:12:04 <dauwhe> ... for now, we'll focus on the other side of this
17:12:23 <dauwhe> ... let's assume, for the moment, that the BG decides that EPUB should move into the WG. what will that mean for us?
17:12:35 <dauwhe> ... right now we're working on WPUB
17:12:43 <dauwhe> ... it's a large doc which encompasses a lot
17:13:04 <dauwhe> ... perhaps we can make a slimmer document which just addresses the manifest, and movign the affordances section elsewhere
17:13:17 <dauwhe> ... we could talk about a minimum viable web publication
17:13:22 <wolfgang> s/movign/moving/
17:13:26 <dauwhe> ... we could move affordances into the use case document
17:13:35 <dauwhe> ... we could create modules, with audio books as the first
17:13:45 <dauwhe> ... and then comics, scholarly...
17:13:54 <dauwhe> ... we need to figure out what modules would mean in this context
17:14:03 <dauwhe> ... we start with audio because we have a business case
17:14:19 <dauwhe> ... these are the real-world scenarios which use a manifest
17:14:31 <dauwhe> ... then audiobooks and manifest become rec-track documents
17:14:41 <dauwhe> ... and we have to decide about EPUB 4
17:14:48 <dauwhe> ... we can't talk about packaging yet
17:15:01 <EvanOwens> Q+
17:15:02 <dauwhe> ... we would like to hear your thoughts; we don't have a timeline for this
17:15:02 <laurentlemeur> q+
17:15:05 <tzviya> ack EvanOwens
17:15:14 <dauwhe> EvanOwens: what does this mean for the thursday calls?
17:15:15 <ivan> q+
17:15:26 <dauwhe> ... is that group dissolving or merging?
17:16:02 <dauwhe> ivan: first of all, we have to realize that the chartering takes several months
17:16:16 <dauwhe> ... in the meantime the CG should go ahead and work out the details of testing
17:16:23 <laudrain> +1
17:16:44 <dauwhe> ... which is a lot of work
17:16:50 <George> q+
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17:17:19 <dauwhe> ... if the rechartering happens, then indeed the work of the ...
17:17:20 <gpellegrino> present+
17:17:39 <dauwhe> ... the work of the CG becomes part of the working group
17:17:44 <Avneesh> q+
17:17:48 <dauwhe> ... perhaps the CG becomes dormant for a while
17:17:56 <dauwhe> ... it's up to us how we organize our meetings
17:18:01 <romain> Q?
17:18:15 <dauwhe> ... the WG will have two major tasks, so we might have two calls. We will have to discuss later.
17:18:26 <dauwhe> .. what the fate of the CG is years from now, it's too early to say
17:18:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: CGs often do maintenence in w3c
17:18:42 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
17:18:47 <ivan> ack ivan
17:18:51 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: you talked about packaging and EPUB 4
17:18:59 <garth> q+
17:19:09 <dauwhe> ... if we stay on audiobook module, there's an idea that we don't need to wait for webpackaging
17:19:20 <dauwhe> ... we know there will be many issues with DRM with this format
17:19:32 <dauwhe> ... we are discussing an alternative OCF-lite based on zip
17:19:45 <dauwhe> ... which would fulfill the needs of the publishing industry today
17:19:49 <tzviya> ack George
17:19:58 <dauwhe> George: going back to the CG activities
17:20:09 <garth> q-
17:20:14 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot of work that can be done in starting to design testing
17:20:22 <dauwhe> ... we have best practices that need to be developed
17:20:23 <laudrain> q+
17:20:42 <dauwhe> ... and having a CG for anyone to go to for support is important
17:20:47 <laudrain> +1
17:20:49 <ivan> +1 to George
17:20:57 <dauwhe> ... having that CG active and strong even while the WG is working is important
17:21:00 <dauwhe> q?
17:21:03 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
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17:21:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:21:16 <dauwhe> Avneesh: starting from EPUB 3.2, I was going through the email thread
17:21:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> Sorry to be late--previous meeting went long
17:21:30 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
17:21:39 <dauwhe> ... I would say that we decide at the end of November
17:21:40 <tzviya> s/Sorry to be late--previous meeting went long//
17:21:56 <dauwhe> ... the benefit is not so much the rec track as the testing, the process
17:22:03 <dauwhe> ... the discussion will happen in the BG
17:22:05 <laudrain> +1
17:22:36 <romain> q+
17:22:36 <dauwhe> ... on the WP side, you said right now that WP is not usable for you right now. What's the missing piece? How could it be made useful for scholarly publishing?
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17:22:49 <dauwhe> ... after that we can make a more informed decision about rechartering
17:22:52 <tzviya> ack laudrain
17:22:58 <garth> q?
17:23:06 <ivan> q+
17:23:20 <dauwhe> laudrain: to add some information, in BG we see that EPUB 4 would disturb the messaging around EPUB 3.X
17:23:29 <dauwhe> ... we should "icebox" EPUB 4 :)
17:23:41 <dauwhe> ... "put epub 4 in the freezer" is how Avneesh put it
17:23:57 <dauwhe> ... the idea is to concentrate on promoting EPUB 3.2, pushing epubcheck
17:24:07 <dauwhe> ... the CG has a lot to do that will benefit the whole community
17:24:22 <tzviya> q+
17:24:28 <tzviya> ack romain
17:24:30 <dauwhe> ... the CG can work as we discuss rechartering
17:24:39 <dauwhe> romain: there are two CGs, and then a third
17:25:09 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:25:13 <dauwhe> ... there's the publishing community group for incubation, which should be taken into account
17:25:18 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/community/publishingcg/
17:25:36 <dauwhe> ivan: romains comment... the problem I see is that when we define a charter, we need to clearly define deliverables, due to patents etc
17:26:04 <dauwhe> ... we can't say that if a CG might produce somehting in a future
17:26:16 <dauwhe> romain: some WGs say that things can be added to a charter
17:26:33 <dauwhe> ivan: we can try to do that. Web Platform is an unusual situation.
17:26:35 <wolfgang> s/somehting/something/
17:26:41 <dauwhe> ... I agree with the intention
17:26:51 <dauwhe> ... back to something Avneesh said, about the value of REC track
17:26:56 <dauwhe> ... there are two more issue
17:27:19 <dauwhe> ... this community has not yet hit the issue... the rec track provides patent protection which CG doesn't
17:27:45 <dauwhe> ... the other thing is that this whole discussion was influenced by the idea of an ISO version of EPUB
17:27:49 <Avneesh> q+
17:27:53 <dauwhe> ... if we go REC track than ISO is easier
17:28:11 <dauwhe> ... if we do it via W3c then we ensure that the ISO version is free of charge
17:28:15 <laudrain> +1 to Ivan
17:28:23 <dauwhe> ... getting an official ISO document can be very expensive
17:28:47 <dauwhe> ... another thing that is important, when it comes to chartering , the next step is that it has to be voted on by w3c members
17:29:03 <dauwhe> ... this community will need to vote for the charter in large numbers
17:29:16 <dauwhe> ... we are adding work to the group. you need to plan for that.
17:29:27 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:29:29 <Rachel> scribenick: Rachel
17:29:29 <dauwhe> ... if we don't have enough votes and enough participation this whole thing won't happen
17:29:32 <tzviya> ack tzviya
17:29:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll add to what Ivan said
17:29:42 <dauwhe> ... I do a lot of work with the AC now
17:30:00 <dauwhe> ... there are a lot of people who might object to the new charter, unless we can show how it helps the web
17:30:19 <bigbluehat> q+
17:30:22 <Rachel> tzviya: what makes this better in the big picture of the W3C
17:30:22 <ivan> scribenick: Rachel
17:30:40 <Rachel> ...it looks like we're moving backwards to someone not involved in this group
17:31:21 <EvanOwens> Q+
17:31:26 <Rachel> ... we have to do a lot of careful wording and campaigning to make sure people understand the audiobook work etc so that they understand we're not just tacking w3c branding onto old work
17:31:52 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:32:00 <Rachel> ...we don't have to say we're continuously incubating but we can say proposals come up from the incubating CG
17:32:19 <Rachel> avneesh: last time we were suppoorted by a lot of tpi memebers
17:32:34 <Rachel> ... I don't know that state of the TPI memberships going forward
17:32:41 <wolfgang> s/suppoorted/supported/
17:33:18 <garth> q?
17:33:28 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:33:33 <bigbluehat> https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-contentdocs.html#sec-overview-relations-html
17:34:28 <tzviya> ack EvanOwens
17:34:32 <Rachel> bigbluehat: it's important to note edges embedded reader and we've moved epub to supporting new web technologies (HTML5 and new versions of CSS) which will help make our case to the W3C
17:35:00 <Avneesh> Going to ISO through W3C PAS is not a strong case for EPUB 3.2 going to rec track. EPUB 3 was submitted through Korean govt. fast track and we are doing the same for EPUB 3.0.1
17:35:32 <Rachel> EvanOwens: my question was motivated by the TPI issue - but the W3C is telling us that we have to be a W3C memeber or a Business group member but if we are a business group member I'm not sure if we can participate in the working group.
17:35:34 <Avneesh> So, there are other easy processes even if we do not go thrugh W3C PAS.
17:36:05 <tzviya> q?
17:36:11 <Avneesh> We need to make EPUB 3.2 popular so that it becomes national standard in Korea or some other country that has fast track to ISO
17:36:24 <ivan> q+
17:36:28 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:37:00 <Rachel> Ivan: I wanted to clarify that one of the mst important next steps is to see what the PBG says about this
17:37:17 <wolfgang> s/mst/most/
17:37:23 <Rachel> ...we want to see if the PBG has any fundamental objections to the plan for 3.2
17:38:27 <dauwhe> q+
17:38:30 <Rachel> ...the 3 co-chairs, myself, ralph, and Karen will work together on drafting the charter in github where you should contribute. Then we will go into a pre-voting review process for updating and then the eventual formal voote.
17:38:31 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:38:33 <garth> ack dauwhe
17:38:56 <Rachel> dauwhe: before we start writing the charter I think it would be worthwhile to gain support from the larger web community
17:39:00 <tzviya> +1 dauwhe
17:39:08 <Rachel> ...especially if we are talking about the manifest as a deliverable
17:39:17 <Rachel> ...I'd like to get the TAG on board
17:39:34 <Rachel> ...we're making a fundamental decision as to how something should work on the web
17:39:38 <bigbluehat> q+
17:39:42 <Rachel> ...this is a necessary step to getting buy in
17:39:43 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:39:50 <romain> +100 dauwhe
17:39:58 <Rachel> bigbluehat: there was talk about using CGs for some of this
17:41:02 <Rachel> ... how much of this should we consider proving the things in web publications and then go to the TAG with implementations rather than going to the TAG with the idea before the implementation
17:41:13 <JuanCorona> +1 bigbluehat
17:41:14 <Rachel> ...is this a good idea? Or do we need the buy in first?
17:41:41 <dauwhe> q?
17:41:58 <dauwhe> q+
17:42:00 <Rachel> tzviya: we did gt feedback from the TAG last year. They have a template for explainers that we should use to ask for more.
17:42:10 <wolfgang> s/gt/get/
17:42:13 <Rachel> ...I do talk to the TAG somewhat regularly
17:42:23 <garth> q?
17:42:28 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:42:28 <garth> ack dauwhe
17:42:31 <Rachel> ...they want to help us - we should use they're template to start outreach
17:42:47 <Rachel> dauwhe: we should do a manifest explainer and an audio explainer next
17:42:55 <Rachel> ...instead of diving into spec text
17:43:15 <Rachel> topic: Use Cases
17:43:28 <romain> TAG's "what is an explainer?" page: https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers
17:43:34 <Rachel> franco: I added some uses cases and queries within the pull requests
17:43:56 <Rachel> ...most recently I added cross references referring to different MUST cases in the WP spec
17:44:11 <Rachel> ...5 requirements had no associated MUST statements
17:44:16 <Rachel> ...that's a broad overview
17:44:17 <ivan> q+
17:45:13 <Rachel> ...there's a requirement for uniquely identifying a WP
17:45:47 <Rachel> ...this says that the URL must be the same within the web publication but it's unclear as to whether you should be able to navigate to other HTML pages
17:46:19 <Rachel> ...this is requirement 8
17:46:20 <tzviya> use cases https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
17:46:22 <garth> q?
17:46:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> I would assume that multiple HTML pages could all be part of a given WP--that's what needs to be identified
17:46:57 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:47:25 <Rachel> tzviya: req 7 has no correlation to the WP spec?
17:48:12 <Rachel> ivan:  I am surprised there are only 5. We have to be careful in stating the MUSTs. If you read the text, it's clear that the resources we have, there can be anything.
17:48:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
17:48:55 <Rachel> ...so we need to be more flexible. There may not be a must, but it is adequately represented.
17:49:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
17:49:16 <ivan> q+
17:49:22 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:50:36 <Rachel> ivan: our biggest problem is that the affordances document is very vague. The question we have to answer is how we combine and categorize use cases and affordances
17:50:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> what I'm hearing is that every MUST should have a use case but not every use case needs a specific MUST
17:51:16 <Rachel> ... this also goes to the question of tiering. What is the minimum tier etc?
17:52:30 <Rachel> tzviya: we could create a needs map - like an audio books needs map - that allows us to identify how we're addressing needs within specific business areas
17:52:48 <Rachel> ...this also goes for trade fiction, comic books, etc
17:52:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> I like the needs maps idea
17:53:03 <laudrain> +1
17:53:06 <jbuehler> +1
17:53:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
17:53:10 <wolfgang> +1
17:53:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> * Bill_Kasdorf oops!
17:53:46 <Rachel> tzviya: Can anyone help Josh and Franco put this together?
17:53:54 <Rachel> s/* Bill_Kasdorf oops!/ /
17:54:28 <ivan> q+
17:55:15 <Rachel> josh: I don't care how we organize these. I'm ambivalent. Some of the use cases need requirements added.
17:55:34 <Rachel> ...there are some absent requirements like navigating to the TOC
17:55:45 <Rachel> ...first and foremost is the recharter
17:56:07 <Rachel> ...I was dispirited by the Lyon conversation
17:56:44 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:56:46 <garth> q?
17:56:52 <Rachel> tzviya: please don't stop! the recharter will take months
17:57:03 <Rachel> ivan: the WP work will continue
17:57:14 <Rachel> ...it just becomes more focused on certain communities
17:57:35 <Rachel> ...what I am looking for based on the use cases is to give a clear set of things that we expect UAs to do
17:57:57 <Rachel> ...I haven't seen a needs map beforre
17:58:10 <Rachel> ...I need to be convinced this is the best way to do that
17:58:13 <wolfgang> s/beforre/before/
17:58:50 <Rachel> ...these are the things we need to come back to the web community with
17:59:34 <Rachel> ...I am a little bit concerned that the needs maps will not make it clear what needs to be done
17:59:40 <josh> q+
18:00:02 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
18:00:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: it's the end of the hour, we're going over time
18:00:17 <tzviya> ack josh
18:00:33 <dauwhe> josh: tying it back to what Benjamin said focusing on implementations
18:00:55 <dauwhe> ... this list of what people need to do is easier to create if we have implementations
18:01:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: but we don't have that right now
18:01:03 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
18:01:07 <dauwhe> ... let's focus on refining the concepts
18:01:10 <dauwhe> ivan: it's a tricky issue
18:01:16 <dauwhe> ... we have a discussion for next week
18:01:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks everyone
18:01:22 <BenWaltersMS> BenWaltersMS has left #pwg
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18:01:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/05-pwg-minutes.html ivan
18:01:46 <ivan> zakim, bye
18:01:46 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:01:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:01:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, tzviya, wolfgang, dkaplan, ivan, jasminemulliken, laudrain, wendyreid, george, jbuehler, bigbluehat, Rachel, franco,
18:01:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
18:01:49 <Zakim> ... Vlad, Chris_Maden, Teenya, josh, mgarrish, Avneesh, caitlingebhard, rkwright, marisa, duga, Garth, Hadrien, clapierre, JuanCorona, romain, BenWaltersMS, laurentlemeur,
18:01:49 <Zakim> ... BenSchroeter, CHayes, Ralph_Swick, gpellegrino, Bill_Kasdorf