13:15:52 RRSAgent has joined #games 13:15:52 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/24-games-irc 13:15:54 Zakim has joined #games 13:16:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:16:12 Meeting: Gaming on the Web TPAC breakout session 13:16:15 Chair: Francois 13:16:41 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018/SessionIdeas#Gaming_on_the_Web 13:17:23 sangchul has joined #games 13:21:42 onishi has joined #GAMES 13:25:41 takio has joined #games 13:29:03 dantheman has joined #games 13:29:53 Kelvin has joined #games 13:32:15 paul has joined #games 13:34:15 mgiuca has joined #games 13:34:21 ningxinhu has joined #games 13:34:29 jungkees has joined #games 13:34:34 BarbaraH has joined #Games 13:34:37 vmpstr_ has joined #games 13:34:45 MichaelGordon has joined #games 13:34:48 sangchul has joined #games 13:34:52 vmpstr has joined #games 13:34:56 wanli has joined #games 13:35:13 Present+ Michael_Gordon 13:35:13 ChrisLittle has joined #games 13:35:22 present+ 13:35:38 present+ Sangchul_Ahn 13:35:38 ada has joined #games 13:35:46 anssik has joined #games 13:35:47 Fuji has joined #games 13:35:54 present+ Jungkee_Song 13:36:07 tidoust has joined #games 13:36:09 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 13:36:26 scribenick: anssik 13:36:27 Present+ Francois_Daoust 13:36:36 Present Dan_Moore 13:37:06 TOPIC: Gaming on the Web 13:37:09 boaz has joined #games 13:37:14 Mizushima has joined #GAMES 13:37:15 guido_grassel has joined #games 13:37:35 tidoust: welcome, I'm Francois working for W3C, M&E champion, including gaming in scope of entertainment part 13:37:48 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 13:37:54 ... structure of this session: history of gaming on the web to kick off the discussion 13:38:03 naomi has joined #games 13:38:12 dtig has joined #games 13:38:14 RobSmith has joined #games 13:38:23 halo has joined #games 13:38:24 ... we also have remote participants, and want to make this an interactive session so please speak up 13:38:30 TOPIC: Setting the Context 13:38:53 kzms2 has joined #games 13:39:15 want to setup a Gaming activity, be it a workshop or some such 13:39:22 s/want/tidoust: want/ 13:39:28 Huangweichai has joined #games 13:39:47 Will you share the web gaming software stack and ecosystem? How is changing? 13:39:57 tidoust: 2011 organized games W3C workshop, at that time games on the web were considered "low end" 13:40:22 ... some people attending the 2011 workshop are in this room it seems 13:40:25 [sees hands] 13:41:07 ... issues at the time of 2011 workshop: the lack of gamepad, fullscreen, orientation lock, no high perf timer, asset loading 13:41:27 ... as a by-product of that workshop, created a CG, the first CG ever at W3C! 13:41:49 ... CG tried to identify relevant WGs to fix the issues identified 13:42:18 ... fast forward today, and all the issues identified have either be addressed of are being worked on in current CGs and WGs 13:42:34 ... CG can be considered a success from that perspective 13:42:48 Kangz has joined #games 13:43:00 the original use case report from the games community group: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1fs1hpZvP05ViEWtaLSmNQUV_PW2jCWS5Oe2GAdBKgl0 13:43:16 ... other games on the web activities outside W3C include e.g. Mozilla's Games program, Next Games Conference 2014 13:44:59 Luke: we started Mozilla games program after the 2011 workshop since it was considered a catalyst for finding pain points on the web platform 13:45:44 ... such as JS performance, came up with Emscripten, asm.js, pushed this to the limit, and that led us to Wasm 13:46:15 ... Wasm is one of the most interesting off-shoots, another WebGL performance performances 13:46:52 ... high performance timers, Web Audio, Storage improvements also motivated by games 13:47:13 q? 13:47:21 aklein has joined #games 13:48:02 tidoust: that's one activity, there has been in addition games conferences 13:48:33 majidvp has joined #games 13:49:24 ?1: we started 2011 our game engine for the Web, issues faced include problems to secure sets(?) [scribe missed the remaining details] 13:49:55 ... 80% of users are not game designers, but use our engine (Babylon.js) in other usages 13:49:56 q? 13:50:22 tidoust: I tried to summarize all the technologies that have become part of the web platform in a form of a roadmap for the games on the web 13:50:39 -> https://w3c.github.io/web-roadmaps/games/ Games on the Web Roadmap 13:51:13 the roadmap is devided in different capabilities: performance, data storage, payment & service etc. 7 in total 13:51:15 Huangweichai has joined #games 13:51:24 s/the roadmap/tidoust: the roadmap/ 13:51:27 ... 13:51:54 tidoust: this was a starting point to discuss the remaining gaps on the web platform 13:53:22 ... what is still needed for games to reach the web platform, what to look for, currently identified gaps: advanced rendering, multiplayer comms, live streaming, esports, ML, asset protection, accessibility, debugging, better multithreading, game streaming, monetization, gesture events etc. 13:53:32 anssik: how native games deal with accessibility? 13:53:46 dom: there's research in that area 13:54:42 Where are you getting usages and needs? Are you going to participate in Game developer conferences? 13:54:59 Game Developer Conference - https://www.gdconf.com/ 13:55:33 Bernard: many native games require low latency for multiplayer, gap in WebRTC to port those games to the Web 13:57:12 q+ 13:57:45 ... native games do ICE optimizations to bring the latency down, also Virtual Reality multiplayer challenging to implement using WebRTC 13:58:26 Boaz: can you elaborate the issues with WebRTC? 13:59:03 Bernard: SDP issues, for solution will need to go talk to IETF and takes multiple years to resolve 13:59:45 tidoust: native game engine developers say WebGL is nice but it is legacy, also the same message heard in the WebGPU breakout session 14:00:12 ack boaz 14:00:26 ... another thing, extremely popular in gaming is esports or live streaming 14:00:46 ... record yourself playing a game and stream it to a social platforms 14:01:17 Bernard: that is already doable as of today, no gap, latency is a minor issue 14:02:38 MarkW: should HDR graphics be on the list, is it important for games? 14:02:41 RobSmith has joined #games 14:02:50 MichaelGordon has joined #games 14:02:50 anssik: seems modern game consoles do support it 14:03:37 MarkW: latest Windows 10 supports HDR, and there a many monitors with HDR support, HDR graphics available to game consoles but not exposed to the Web 14:04:19 MarkW: wide color gamut is not to be confused with HDR 14:05:13 q+ 14:05:17 Barbara: the group would benefit for be connected with game developers, are you involved with GDC 14:05:39 ... we're hearing trend in gaming is to be able to move from platform to platform, from PC to mobile 14:06:29 anssik: it seems the Web would address that requirement 14:07:08 Boaz: that's a very good point, any game developers in the room who make games for work? 14:07:15 [hears one] 14:08:32 Boaz: should be interviewing game companies, collecting pain points and use cases, not make duplicate work of WGs 14:09:01 -> https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1fs1hpZvP05ViEWtaLSmNQUV_PW2jCWS5Oe2GAdBKgl0 W3C Games Community Group Summit 14:09:05 ack boaz 14:09:55 tidoust: before moving on, any further feedback from Babylon.js? 14:10:35 David: would like to be able to use Wasm (in production?), multithreading challenges 14:11:57 Luke: good news for Wasm, 1st class GC being added, with some out-in could use stricter classes and type checking 14:12:25 David: tried to write Wasm compiler, but we're just a team of 7 people 14:12:43 ... not all math functions are not in Wasm 14:13:00 Luke: you can import Math functions 14:14:17 [scribe missed a bunch of discussion] 14:14:51 ?2: Can having access to input pointer inside a worker be possible? 14:16:19 sangchul has joined #games 14:16:27 David: we are doing particles on GPU, being able to animate particles on one thread would be great, use another thread for collisions etc. sync threads, join threads 14:16:57 ?2: pointer events tracking across worker threads would be great 14:17:08 tidoust: any other technical gaps? 14:17:17 s/gaps?/gaps to discuss?/ 14:18:03 tidoust: should we resume a steering activity for games on the Web? 14:18:55 q+ 14:19:04 Barbara: it depends on the priorities of W3C and the Web, if the goal is to meet near native performance, gamers are your hardest audience 14:19:57 q- 14:20:04 Boaz: I agree, this is an important frontier for the Web Platform 14:20:30 tidoust: we need game developers, and especially game engine developers 14:20:41 Boaz: who are Babylon.js users? 14:21:10 David: Chinese companies doing Facebook games, large scale multiplayer online games 14:21:28 ... mostly game developers from studies of around 10 people 14:22:06 David: one of the reasons to not go to the Web 4 years ago was the lack of content protection 14:23:23 tidoust: proposed next step: revise CG, organize a workshop 14:23:35 ... gauging level of support in the room 14:23:41 [sees heads nodding] 14:24:14 tidoust: workshop would happen at earliest beginning 2019 14:24:31 ... why did Mozilla games program stopped? 14:25:00 Luke: initial objectives were accomplished 14:25:37 Alexis: later in 2019 might be better, we'd have WebGPU, WebXR more fleshed out 14:26:21 Boaz: Would it be valuable for this room the use cases be collected and be brought back to you? 14:27:39 Huangweichai has joined #games 14:27:46 ?3: having worked as a game developer in the past, development times of games are fast, looking at historical use cases can see how the industry develops 14:28:33 tidoust: in standards there's always tension on being too early and too late 14:29:02 MarkF: any existing discussion on server-side game streaming? 14:29:17 tidoust: that's been identified, to my knowledge not explored 14:29:28 MarkF: possible topic for the workshop to consider 14:29:55 David: as a consumer of the spec would be more than happy to help 14:30:29 tidoust: Bernard, all good? 14:30:33 Bernard: yes, thanks! 14:30:41 tidoust: thank you everyone for participating! 14:30:55 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:30:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/24-games-minutes.html anssik 14:31:07 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:33:20 aklein has left #games 14:52:11 tidoust has joined #games 14:58:19 naomi has joined #games 16:01:03 tidoust has joined #games 16:17:20 naomi has joined #games 16:21:37 naomi has joined #games 16:28:36 naomi has joined #games 16:29:18 naomi has joined #games 16:34:15 Zakim has left #games 16:52:51 naomi has joined #games 17:24:44 naomi has joined #games