06:29:38 RRSAgent has joined #pwg 06:29:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-irc 06:29:44 Zakim has joined #pwg 06:31:58 josh has joined #pwg 06:35:56 leonardr has joined #pwg 06:53:14 leonardr has joined #pwg 06:53:27 present+ Leonard 06:53:31 rrsagent, set log public 06:53:32 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 06:53:56 Meeting: Publishing F2F, 2nd day — Minutes 06:54:09 skk has joined #pwg 06:54:09 chair: Garth, Tzviya, Wendy 06:54:15 present+ 06:54:25 agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit 06:54:29 present+ Garth 06:54:44 ivan has changed the topic to: agenda 2018-10-23: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit 06:54:47 present+ 06:55:35 Avneesh has joined #pwg 06:55:38 present+ 06:56:32 scribenick, set kaz Kazuyuki Ashimura 06:56:39 guest+ kaz 06:56:45 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-pwg-minutes.html previous 22-Ot 06:56:52 s/-Ot/-Oct 06:57:11 present+ 06:57:23 Karen has joined #pwg 06:57:31 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 06:57:34 wolfgang has joined #pwg 06:58:08 clapierre has joined #pwg 06:58:29 present+ 06:58:30 gpellegrino has joined #pwg 06:58:38 Ariel has joined #pwg 06:58:45 present+ 06:58:58 present+ 06:59:19 present+ 07:00:11 present+ wolfgang 07:00:16 Ariel has joined #pwg 07:00:18 George has joined #pwg 07:00:26 Rachel has joined #pwg 07:00:39 present+ George 07:01:00 guests+ Judy_Brewer 07:01:09 present+ 07:01:34 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 07:01:49 present+ karen 07:01:54 romain has joined #pwg 07:01:55 scribenick: karen 07:02:03 present+ 07:02:07 https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-22-pwg.html 07:02:08 Could someone start the GoToMeeting, please? 07:02:15 yanni has joined #pwg 07:02:17 present+ 07:02:18 duga has joined #pwg 07:02:22 laudrain has joined #pwg 07:02:24 present+ 07:02:30 present+ 07:02:43 ReinaldoFerraz has joined #pwg 07:02:44 liisamk has joined #pwg 07:03:02 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 07:03:08 JunGamo has joined #pwg 07:03:14 Karen_ has joined #pwg 07:03:15 present+ 07:03:21 marisa has joined #pwg 07:03:26 Ariel_ has joined #pwg 07:03:27 present+ 07:03:31 present+ 07:04:00 present+ 07:04:01 Topic: Joint BG/WG meeting 07:04:18 Subtopic: what does the WG want from the BG on priorities 07:04:34 guests+ Jeff_Jaffee 07:04:50 scribenick: dauwhe 07:05:07 liisamk: let's talk about what direction the WG wants from the BG 07:05:11 Judy has joined #pwg 07:05:27 garth: from yesterday, we spent the whole day focusing on where the group has been heading with WP 07:05:28 kaz has joined #pwg 07:05:45 present+ Hadrien 07:05:49 ... a methodology to define a publications and its bounds so it can live on the web 07:05:51 present+ 07:05:57 ... that seems interesting to the education and journals space 07:06:04 ... less interesting to trade publishers 07:06:19 ... we've just "finished" EPUB 3.2 07:06:39 ... which is significant for the classic EPUB market, especially as epubcheck gets updated 07:07:04 ... I think it's helpful to have the latest version of EPUB actually being used 07:07:16 ... I'm concerned about EPUB 4 stepping on the tail of EPUB 3.2 07:07:25 ... I don't want to derail EPUB 3.2 07:07:31 ... perhaps by focusing on audio books 07:07:35 jeff has joined #pwg 07:07:40 present+ jeff 07:07:44 ... what do you think of priorities? 3.2 vs 4 07:08:06 ... this WG operates independently by W3C process 07:08:08 scribenick, set jeff Jeff Jaffee 07:08:17 guests: jeff 07:08:22 ... but the WG can take input from the business group and the publishing community 07:08:25 guests+ jeff 07:08:25 s/Jaffee/Jaffe/ 07:08:33 q+ 07:08:43 q? 07:08:51 Avneesh_ has joined #pwg 07:08:56 Hadrien has joined #pwg 07:08:56 ack gpellegrino 07:08:56 scribenick, set jeff Jeff Jaffe 07:08:57 gpellegrino: for priorities... 07:09:03 present+ 07:09:10 present+ 07:09:10 ... we need some clarifications about web publications, portable WP, and EPUB 4 07:09:12 guests+ Judy 07:09:16 ... what are the differences? 07:09:27 guests+ Kaz 07:09:32 ... we have to explain in a clear way what will be the differences 07:09:42 ... in italy we had a big problem moving from EPUB 2 to EPUB 3 07:09:49 ... so it might be harder to move to EPUB 4 or WP 07:09:51 q+ 07:09:59 ... we want an infographic that's simple and easy to understand 07:10:01 ack romain 07:10:08 laudrain has joined #pwg 07:10:14 romain: garth said the question of conflict between 3.2 and 4 07:10:24 ... the conflict already happened between EPUB 3.2 and WP 07:10:24 q+ 07:10:28 present+ 07:10:35 ... I don't see the business case for web publications 07:10:35 q+ 07:10:42 q+ 07:10:44 ... we want to be webby, but the browsers aren't involved 07:10:46 Karen has joined #pwg 07:10:57 ... I don't think the publishing industry won't migrate easily and quickly 07:11:15 ... we say that if WPUB is adopted, it will attract interest from browsers 07:11:20 ack bigbluehat 07:11:28 ... but I don't see forces that will lead to broad adoption 07:11:45 bigbluehat: I work for a publisher. WE have a business case for WPUB, but not for the existing spec 07:11:53 ... we don't use EPUB for journals 07:12:06 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 07:12:08 ... I have not understood how WPUB ended up being part of the EPUB lineage 07:12:17 q? 07:12:20 ... I want to see WP shaped by *web publishers* 07:12:23 q+ to talk about understanding the needs of publishing and existing browsers 07:12:30 ... but we don't want to have the constraints of EPUB 07:12:41 ... I want to split these things--EPUB and WPUB on separate paths 07:12:48 ack garth 07:13:03 garth: I view WP as not so much fighting with EPUB 3.2, as they are different animals 07:13:04 present+ Karen 07:13:07 ... one on web, one packaged 07:13:23 ... those can progress at the same time without conflict 07:13:56 ... WP getting traction, and moving core content to be OWP technologies, and figuring out how to package that... seems to work 07:14:19 q+ 07:14:20 ... I view "putting books in EPUB 4" would be solving a problem that doesn't exist yet 07:14:31 ack Rachel 07:14:37 Rachel: if I understand what you're saying, I disagree 07:14:56 ... going into WPUB, we're trying to solve a problem we haven't defined yet. That's our biggest challenge as a WG 07:15:06 q+ 07:15:08 ... we declared a solution to a problem we didn't define 07:15:17 JunGamo has joined #pwg 07:15:18 q? 07:15:32 ... so now we're stuck where we resolve problems two ways--at the high level, by not looking at the details 07:15:43 ... or we get stuck bikeshedding, and don't see the forest for the trees 07:15:45 q- 07:15:56 ... it doesn't feel like we're getting closer to an implementable specification 07:16:01 ... it's been frustrating for me 07:16:02 q? 07:16:03 DanieWeck has joined #pwg 07:16:06 present+ 07:16:24 ... we have so many tools available to us in terms of progress and product development, but we're not using them 07:16:36 ... and there's a lot of infighting over individual solutions 07:16:44 garth: I don't think we disagree 07:16:58 ... I don't view WP as in the same space in EPUB 07:17:04 q? 07:17:15 ... it's a different problem set 07:17:17 guests+ Naomi_Yoshizawa 07:17:20 ack tzviya 07:17:20 tzviya, you wanted to talk about understanding the needs of publishing and existing browsers 07:17:29 tzviya: focusing on question of priorities for BG to WG 07:17:34 ... I very much agree with Rachel 07:17:47 q+ 07:17:49 ... we have lost our way, and getting feedback from the BG is good 07:17:50 q? 07:17:57 ... we started off with a vision of WPUB 07:18:08 ... but we haven't gotten to a great place with that 07:18:18 ... if the BG wants us to focus on EPUB, maybe could do that 07:18:38 ... right now Wiley produces articles as HTML 07:18:43 ... so things of interest to us are 07:18:54 ... AMP, packaging, identifiers, addressability 07:19:04 ... annotators, selectors, web components 07:19:16 ... we haven't solved these problems, and our spec doesn't address them 07:19:26 ... maybe we want to focus on EPUB in the WG 07:19:30 ack Avneesh 07:19:33 q? 07:19:36 Avneesh: touching on many things that have been discussed 07:20:00 ... we should market the best product for each segment 07:20:09 ... we are trying to keep the products near each other 07:20:19 naomi_ has joined #pwg 07:20:19 ... the benefit the consumer is to use the browser 07:20:30 ... so trying to keep things close to EPUB does not help 07:20:42 +1 to Avneesh 07:20:45 ... we should have WPUB go along the web direction, working in the browser 07:20:54 ... and for the publishing industry, follow the EPUB path 07:21:06 ... there's no benefit to keep these two things similar 07:21:06 +1 to Avneesh 07:21:14 q? 07:21:14 ack laudrain 07:21:15 +1 07:21:37 laudrain: I would like to emphasize that the work on EPUB is important for us 07:21:50 Karen has joined #pwg 07:21:57 ... especially as EPUB 3.2 now has a better relationshiop with HTML and CSS, using the latest versions 07:22:22 ... we have momentum now to help us to start the traditional publishing industry to produce good modern content 07:22:40 ... our problem today is that HTML and CSS doesn't work everywhere 07:22:50 q? 07:22:55 ... we want to improve the reading experience for a11y, layout, etc 07:23:00 ... EPUB 3.2 is the best EPUB ever 07:23:07 ... I understand WP is important for journals 07:23:20 q+ 07:23:29 ... I'm concerned, like Garth, that we might disturb the momentum of EPUB 3.2 with EPUB 4 07:23:39 glazou has joined #pwg 07:23:43 ack Ralph 07:23:43 ... except for audio books, which we could prototype EPUB 4 for the market 07:23:50 Ralph: I've talked to some of you 07:24:02 ... I'm hearing a new message that w3c didn't appreciate two years ago 07:24:18 ... our original proposal was to make epub a native part of the web, viewing them in web browsers 07:24:21 ... we had a few ideas 07:24:26 ... some starting points 07:24:35 ... but we didn't survey every touchpoint 07:24:41 ... we proposed to start the WG 07:25:00 ... what we didn't fully appreciate was the degree to which the industry was moving from EPUB 2 to EPUB 3 07:25:32 ... EPUB 3.2 is a significant improvement, as it updates the relationship to HTML and CSS 07:25:51 ... that does remove some of the message about what the new working group objectives were 07:26:12 ... it reemphasizes the need to say EPUB 3.2 is a big step ahead, and a step on the road to more integration 07:26:48 q? 07:26:48 ... I see that the BG can help make people know that this a step to the future 07:26:57 ... this is an intermediate step 07:27:16 ... I've heard different emphasises... the spec is good enough and we should market it more, for example 07:27:44 ... and a suggestion that there's more work to do around interop 07:27:55 ... what are the next steps you want to happen with 3.2 07:28:03 ... and are there resources to do any of this work? 07:28:16 ... we need to be careful about the messaging around both these things 07:28:29 ... we'd like a clear message on what you want the next steps for 3.2 to be 07:28:50 ... as well as working on the future 07:29:11 ... we need guidance from the BG on how we balance these things 07:29:12 ack Hadrien 07:29:29 marisa has joined #pwg 07:29:29 Hadrien: there's no solution for audio books right now 07:29:36 ... we get bad stuff from publishers 07:29:45 ... both EPUB 4 and WP are really relevant for audio books 07:29:56 ... EPUB 4 is relevant as an ingestion format 07:30:04 ... WP is relevant as a delivery format, sent to users 07:30:10 q+ 07:30:10 ... the same thing is true for comics 07:30:17 ... those publications can be huge 07:30:26 ... we don't want to send 100s of MB to a user 07:30:40 ... the ability to stream resources is incredibly interesting 07:30:51 q+ 07:31:02 ... there are massive markets around audio and comics 07:31:04 ack duga 07:31:22 duga: I agree with Rachel's summary of the WG issues 07:31:45 ... specs work best when two or more groups come together to make something interoperable 07:31:57 ... when people just blue-sky things it doesn't work 07:32:07 ... it's not about the quality of the spec 07:32:23 ... you can write a crappy spec like EPUB 2, but it actually solves a problem 07:32:28 q+ 07:32:37 ... audio books is a place where we have a problem, and there's not a good solution 07:32:51 ... it's interesting we split EPUB4 and WP 07:33:02 ... there is a difference with streamed vs packaged audio 07:33:03 q+ 07:33:13 q? 07:33:16 ack George 07:33:23 George: I like WP, the concept 07:33:35 ... the fundamental is that web browsers are the most accessible interface 07:33:45 ... and for journals that are one document, I can see it working 07:34:11 ... we have a disaster on the web right now with publications being out there 07:34:26 ... for example WHO (world health) has lots of information that's completely inaccessible 07:34:38 ... getting those moved to WP would be a great service to society in general 07:34:41 ack tzviya 07:34:52 tzviya: if we shift our focus to EPUB 07:34:59 ... the work on audio books could be standalone 07:35:02 q+ 07:35:09 q? 07:35:23 q+ 07:35:31 ack laudrain 07:35:51 laudrain: re: audio, WP and EPUB 4 are important as hadrien said 07:36:07 ... I would suggest we don't call this EPUB 4, 07:36:14 ... we should have audiobooks 07:36:31 ... this message would focus on something we need now: AudioPub 07:36:46 ... with EPUB 3 we have the best with HTML and CSS 07:36:55 ... I don't know if we have to shift the wg for this 07:37:04 q? 07:37:06 q+ 07:37:09 ... I think we should keep momentum on EPUB 3.2, to reassure the industry 07:37:20 q+ 07:37:32 ack bigbluehat 07:37:34 ... but use audio books question to promote WP, but call it AudioPub 07:37:47 bigbluehat: I think we modelled the group upside down 07:37:59 ... we created specs from whole cloth, which should have been done in CG 07:38:05 ... and EPUB should be done in a WG 07:38:16 ... and move audio and web pubs to CG to explore and experiment 07:38:20 q? 07:38:35 ... and then make specs out of the overlap, and then come back to the WG 07:38:51 ... that we put the specs in a place where exploration is encouraged, and experimentation is fine 07:38:56 ... then come back to the WG 07:39:02 Publishing CG http://www.w3.org/community/publishingcg/ 07:39:14 ... the actual spec is 3.2, the experiment is WPUB, the dream is EPUB 4 07:39:16 ack garth 07:39:26 garth: I agree with all y'all 07:39:47 ... I'm sensitive to the 3.2 is important, we don't want to do EPUB 4 for ebooks right now 07:40:05 ... we could use AudioPub as a way to learn about the future of WPUB 07:40:09 ... and we could work on comics 07:40:17 +1 well said BY 07:40:25 ack Avneesh 07:40:26 ... that could be done now but not dilute 3.2 and not confuse the market 07:40:32 Avneesh: re: segmentation 07:40:57 ... this group should sustain WP in more webby way 07:41:07 ... to have WP working in browser--this is one segment 07:41:13 ... the confusion is EPUB 3 vs EPUB 4 07:41:18 ... maybe continue with EPUB 3 07:41:27 ... and using a profile for AudioPUB with new tech 07:41:36 ... trad publishers continue to use EPUB 3.2 07:41:49 ... and audio books which is direct outcome of new work 07:41:55 ... 1. WP for web 07:42:05 ... 2. EPUB 3.2 for trad publishing 07:42:15 ... 3. AudioPub as a profile of WP 07:42:22 q+ 07:42:23 q+ 07:42:25 ... .those are the three segments 07:42:29 ack ivan 07:42:34 +1 for Avneesh 07:42:44 ivan: my problem is, regardless of what we do where... 07:42:52 ... whether we follow Benjamin's model 07:42:58 ... or continue this group 07:43:09 ... our problem is limited resources to do the technical work 07:43:26 ... we could reach out and say we'll do 3.2 and WP at the same time 07:43:37 ... but we don't have the people to do the technical work 07:43:52 ... 3.2 will require a lot of work 07:44:15 ... the spec work is done, but we need to do test cases, figure out interop 07:44:16 q+ 07:44:23 ... we lack the womanpower we need 07:44:30 q? 07:45:00 ... if we can't get new members, new engineers that can do the work, then all of this is just a dream 07:45:03 ack marisa 07:45:05 q+ 07:45:06 +1 to ivan's concerns 07:45:12 marisa: I hear lots about trad publishers vs web publishers 07:45:18 ... why are these separate islands 07:45:32 tzviya: traditional in this group means trade 07:45:38 yanni has joined #pwg 07:45:48 marisa: trade publishers don't want to be on the web 07:45:51 replace [wo]manpower with personpower 07:45:56 q? 07:46:02 q+ 07:46:24 q? 07:46:43 q? 07:46:49 marisa: I find that WP, PWP, EPUB4, etc to be really confusing 07:46:59 laurentlemeur: we could remove one, PWP 07:47:09 ack clapierre 07:47:25 clapierre: when we released 3.1, the problem was we didn't have epubcheck 07:47:36 ... I know DAISY is working on 3.2 epubcheck 07:47:55 https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/10/epubcheck-fundraising/ 07:47:57 q? 07:48:02 tzviya: WE NEED DONATIONS. GIVE US ALL YOUR MONEY NOW. 07:48:12 guillaume has joined #pwg 07:48:23 ack bigbluehat 07:48:25 q? 07:48:29 garth: epubcheck is getting the focus it deserves 07:48:40 bigbluehat: re ivan's concern about peoplepower 07:48:51 q? 07:49:04 ... by using a CG you open the doors to engineers to participate in a more familiar environment 07:49:13 ... there's not a membership obligation 07:49:27 ... early-stage startups aren't in a posision to be members, do calls 07:49:28 +1 bigbluehat 07:49:37 ... but they can write scripts to prove or disprove a point 07:49:52 ... and perhaps if their work pans out, get in a position to join w3c 07:50:03 ... CG works for small operators 07:50:04 s/posision/position/ 07:50:09 q? 07:50:23 ... when there's some momemtum, larger companies may become interested 07:50:42 ... to marisa's point 07:51:14 ack duga 07:51:15 ... pay attention to verifiable claims, identity stuff, all that kind of thing 07:51:15 ack duga 07:51:27 duga: re: ivan's comment on developers 07:51:29 gpellegrino1 has joined #pwg 07:51:35 q+ 07:51:39 ... developers are not interested in implementing WP 07:51:49 ... I'm not interested because I sell ebooks 07:52:05 ... the technical details are uninteresting to me 07:52:27 ... but in the EPUB 3, I was involved and these things mattered to me 07:52:43 ... I attend the audiobooks calls, because it matters to me and what I'm doing 07:52:45 q+ 07:53:01 ... perhaps the lack of interest in implemenation is keeping people away 07:53:07 ivan: which should mean more members 07:53:15 q? 07:53:18 ... it's easy for you because you're a member 07:53:22 q+ 07:53:35 ack Avneesh 07:53:41 s/implemenation/implementation/ 07:53:44 gpellegrino has joined #pwg 07:53:45 ... the problem is twofold--both membership, and getting engineers from members 07:54:06 Scribenick: Karen 07:54:10 q? 07:54:13 zakim, close the queue 07:54:13 ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is closed 07:54:24 Avneesh: Maybe we are trying to solve all the problems together 07:54:31 q? 07:54:32 ...good to separate; one bucket is WP 07:54:36 ...have CG kind of thing 07:54:48 ...one practical thing, this WG is more than half way through 07:55:02 ...rolling everything back is a huge overhead; maybe we move innovation along 07:55:08 ...other bucket is EPUB3.2 07:55:13 ...to Ivan's point on manpower 07:55:30 ...maybe we don't rush to put EPUB3.2 onto the rec track; see what industry does 07:55:37 ...maybe look at how market reacts 07:55:48 ...Third segment is audio books; we can work soon and start pushing 07:56:04 George: would 3.2 on rec track change publishers' perspective 07:56:11 q+ 07:56:24 Garth: I think coming out of CG, in my view is seen as an establshed work 07:56:27 clapierre has joined #pwg 07:56:36 q? 07:56:36 Wendy: When I go to my engineers, this is latest update 07:56:40 ack wendyreid 07:56:40 s/establshed/established 07:56:45 ...there is no work happening until we get publishers interested 07:56:53 s/establshed/established/ 07:56:58 ...cannot get people interested until I get publishers ready to support 07:56:59 q? 07:57:12 Liisa: if we support EPUB3.2, I'll ask you what you need to support it 07:57:19 q+ to make a technical point about 3.2 07:57:25 Wendy: We are happy to take that 07:57:30 ack bigbluehat 07:57:56 Ben: we buy scholarly 07:58:03 ...loads of vendors at ebookcraft, Toronto, March 07:58:09 s/Ben/Benjamin 07:58:10 q? 07:58:10 s/Ben:/bigbluehat: 07:58:11 ...most won't be in WGs but would like to have some say 07:58:31 q? 07:58:35 ...and do development to be future of what is being done; would like to see their involvement in a CG 07:58:38 ack Leonard 07:58:42 ack leonardr 07:58:44 Leonard: I would like to comment on Ivan's comment 07:58:48 ...my perspective on this 07:58:59 ...this group and the work that this group has been doing is excellent 07:59:08 ...a lot of great potential with WP and audio and the like 07:59:24 ...this group is 90% publishers, or people from publishing industry coming from IDPF 07:59:35 ...that is great; we have leverage that experience to build the work we have done 07:59:51 ...the reason you are not seeing other folks come in, that's because it's that type of focus 08:00:10 ...You have heard me say, my focus is that Web Publications encompass more 08:00:16 ...work we have done helps to accomplish that 08:00:22 ...while we have some of the other things in this group 08:00:35 ...it does give folks that opinion outside of here and other standards bodies meetings 08:00:41 ...they just don't here a place for them here 08:00:50 ...Making WP a separate piece of work from the ebook work is good 08:01:01 ...will help drive toward Ivan's desire to see new blood come in 08:01:11 ...provide a place to build separate from the ebook community 08:01:21 Liisa: summarize what I think you all said 08:01:28 ...Everyone agrees 3.2 is good, it's out there 08:01:40 ...question is whether EPUB3.2 as good as it is, or do we need a rec track 08:01:49 ...and does that mean anything to the BG or a bigger group of people 08:01:54 zakim, open the queue 08:01:54 ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open 08:01:55 ...figure out if that should be prioritized 08:02:02 ...Flip things for CG to incubate thing 08:02:12 ...then move to BG for input, then move to WG to work on 08:02:18 ...supported pretty good 08:02:25 q+ 08:02:26 ...Then there is a question of Audio and whether that is a priority 08:02:32 ...and if WP is a priority 08:02:39 ...should they run simultaneously 08:02:48 ...requirements... 08:02:53 ...does that sound right? 08:02:55 q+ 08:02:59 Wendy: We don't have feedback from the industry 08:03:04 ...just Brady and my experience 08:03:09 q+ 08:03:21 ...Would love to know what audio industry wants; what problem we are trying to solve 08:03:40 Liisa: and what will it take to implement and get broad support across reading systems and from publishers worldwide 08:03:48 ...One thing somebody brought up, not sure where it fits 08:04:01 ...idea that comics and audio could both work in same time frame, or same chunk of the puzzle 08:04:07 Luc: that is a good transition 08:04:11 Judy has joined #pwg 08:04:17 q? 08:04:32 Luc: I think about Tokyo workshop 08:04:41 Garth: shall we close the queue? 08:04:48 ack Ivan 08:04:54 zakim, close the queue 08:04:54 ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed 08:05:06 Ivan: I think it's important to realize the BG 08:05:13 ...putting 3.2 on rec track 08:05:20 ...personally I think it would improve the spec 08:05:26 ...by creating the test suites and test environment 08:05:34 ...which leads to adjusting text to make it more precise 08:05:37 ...at end of process 08:05:44 ...we come out at W3C will be of a higher quality 08:05:57 ..and will lead to better interop and compliance with reading systems 08:06:05 ...a bit technical, that should be part of the decisions 08:06:13 ...not just putting standards stamp on 3.2 08:06:18 ...downside there is still work to do 08:06:27 ...I think this is work that would be highly beneficial 08:06:40 Liisa: What do we mean by compliant reading systems and how would you test for that 08:06:48 ...when majority of reading systems don't @ 08:07:00 Ivan: good question; don't have answer there 08:07:16 ...but goal is not to have to test reading systems on 15 reading sytstems 08:07:20 q+ 08:07:33 ...try to avoid the "best viewed on" issue 08:07:38 s/sytstems/systems/ 08:07:44 George: companies have been ingesting from 3.2 08:07:49 q+ 08:07:52 Ivan: I cannot answer details, this is part of job 08:07:58 Luc: 3.2 is not a web pubication 08:08:01 ...I am concerned 08:08:16 ...3.2 is ok 08:08:19 s/pubication/publication/ 08:08:23 ...for publishing and not rewrite 08:08:30 Ivan: not rewrite 08:08:37 ...3.2; maybe some minor details 08:08:37 q? 08:08:42 ...I am not saying at all to change it 08:08:53 ...speaking here with guidance of [Dave C] 08:09:04 ...no testing environment; rec track would force us to do that 08:09:08 q? 08:09:16 q+ 08:09:20 Laurent: rec track maybe would include that 08:09:30 Ivan: It's not implemented; why not there 08:09:38 Liisa; We can dream of a future that includes JScript 08:09:45 Ivan; what implementation means 08:09:53 ...if MathML is in MathJax... 08:09:58 ack jeff 08:10:00 q? 08:10:03 ...whole thing is useless if not implemented 08:10:05 ack Jeff 08:10:16 Jeff: If rec is that the WG picks up 3.2 or Audio Pub 08:10:19 ...we are not chartered today 08:10:24 q? 08:10:24 ...we would need to recharter 08:10:31 ack Tzviya 08:10:39 ackl tzviya 08:10:43 Tzviya: Was going to say what Jeff said 08:10:49 ...turn to Dave to speak about 3.2 08:10:51 ack Dave 08:10:58 Dave: I feel like we are confusing means and ends 08:11:02 ...3.2 is not our goal 08:11:12 ...our fundamental problem with EPUB today is interoperability 08:11:30 ...EPUB3.2 is not significantly different from 3.0.1 08:11:35 ...tech changes are quite small 08:11:42 ...except for core of HTML and CSS 08:11:48 ...in some context we got that for free before 08:11:58 ...a lot of reading systems are based on browser engines 08:12:12 ...not like reading systems will unblock certain features from happening; they never filtered on it anwya 08:12:20 ...not changing what's possible in EPUB 08:12:26 ...if 3.2 goes on rec track 08:12:31 ...what is point of making a first spec 08:12:36 ...go over a hundred times 08:12:43 s/anwya/anyway/ 08:12:44 ...but learn from experience of doing tests 08:12:47 ...why go down that path 08:12:54 ...make this more interoperable 08:13:02 ...what does reading system X or Y do or not do 08:13:10 ...or unimplementable because it was not tested 08:13:21 ...use this as a tool rather than an end in itself 08:13:27 subtopic: Tokyo workshop and its effects 08:13:38 q? 08:13:50 Garth: let's treat that as segueway to Tokyo workshop 08:13:55 Luc: reflowable issues 08:14:02 ...also books with complex layouts 08:14:18 ...too sorts: graphic arts; manga, bande dessignee 08:14:22 Report of the workshop: https://www.w3.org/publishing/events/tokyo18-workshop/report.html 08:14:22 ...and those with complex layout 08:14:32 ...today EPUB is solving with fixed layout EPUB 08:14:40 ...layout is preserved using open web technologies 08:14:54 ...for manga, it's an image of the page, fixed by a capture by the page in print PDF 08:15:06 ..for other books it uses absolute positioning with page as viewpoint 08:15:11 ...put text and image on the page 08:15:17 ...it breaks solutions 08:15:30 ...put on market mangas and fixed layout text for text books or cookbooks 08:15:31 s/bande dessignee/bande dessinées/ 08:15:36 ...there is a market for it 08:15:44 ...market is very strange 08:15:59 ...for fixed market there is 50% market in Japan for manga 08:16:09 ...if we change things here, we have to pay attention 08:16:22 ...also success in Korea using web technologies 08:16:36 ...these two approaches were exposed in Tokyo workshop 08:16:41 ...two ways to solve this 08:16:53 ...Idea is to have a better issue in digital books for this fixed layout 08:17:09 ...for manga and bande dessinees; understand what is expected by the author 08:17:16 ...describe page with a specific taxonomy 08:17:20 ...some work was exposed 08:17:29 ..some thought it was good and wanted to join this work 08:17:37 ...also a W3C CG was created 08:17:44 ...for international work on this 08:17:54 ...how things are expressed by the author in this taxonomy 08:18:00 ...bring two together in future 08:18:04 ...CG is one outcome 08:18:07 ...second kind of group 08:18:23 ...make more accessible text books, express as author wanted as a page 08:18:28 ...also be better on small screens 08:18:36 ...we had good presentations on capacities of CSS 08:18:47 ...there could be a layout system for HTML 08:18:58 ...it was interesting for trade publishers 08:19:01 ...use InDesign 08:19:15 ...lay out important, meaningful layouts 08:19:19 ...layout means something 08:19:21 q? 08:19:22 ...some people working on this 08:19:35 ...to try to figure out different part of the layout and make it available in a reflowable manner 08:19:39 ..at end of day 08:19:51 ...we had reflection about two ways to make this complex layout more reflowable 08:19:59 ...one as Dave explained is to compose on HTML and CSS 08:20:08 ...with CSS we may have books created with complex layout directly 08:20:19 ...means a lot of work to be done in web browsers where layout is built 08:20:28 ...not as sophisticated as what we can do now 08:20:33 ...Other way is to express perfect job 08:20:45 ...in complex layout in HTML and CSS; some kind of conversion 08:20:50 ...need to understand 08:21:01 ...could be expressed as dutifully as an InDesign page 08:21:07 ...and on smaller pages, more free 08:21:14 ...the two directions we identified 08:21:26 ...We need more input from publishers in CSS WG 08:21:41 ...and what has been specified needs to be implemented in browsers 08:21:47 ...First, on long long-term 08:21:55 ...it would help us to go a step further than fixed layout 08:22:03 ...help us to do some important business in manga 08:22:18 ...Go to another step in the future when we have this for complex layout in HTML and CSS 08:22:34 ...we hope the whole publishing industry will contribute to this evolution of CSS 08:22:45 ...Others who attended Tokyo workshop, anything to add? 08:22:49 zakim, open the queue 08:22:49 ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open 08:22:54 Ivan: one more thing that did come up 08:23:03 ...which is not necessary a job for this group 08:23:09 ...evolution of CSS is 08:23:22 ..for many things, how we use CSS for various layouts, much based on frankly hacks 08:23:27 ...old days we used tables 08:23:30 ...then told not to do that 08:23:42 ...situation where we throw out everything from CSS an start over again 08:23:56 ...the boxes and combination of the two create a new rich, clean environment 08:24:01 q? 08:24:05 ...but more difficult for those who have to carry the past 08:24:10 ...would need a lot of educaiton and outreach 08:24:17 s/the boxes/flexbox and grid/ 08:24:24 ...try to get this kind of outreach for users might be important 08:24:35 ...I realized I may have to relearn things 08:24:46 s/educaiton/education/ 08:24:53 Laurent: There is a lack of tools coming from a fixed page from InDesign 08:24:57 q+ 08:24:58 ...to interactive 08:25:15 ...also importance to lack of EPUB3 for lack of handling manga 08:25:20 ...but complained as images 08:25:30 ...they don't have @ they would like 08:25:42 ...segueway to what we would want manga group to do 08:25:58 ...not move to 3.3. but use W3C techniques and implement another way 08:26:07 ack Leonard 08:26:08 ack leonardr 08:26:20 Leonard: I agree, Laurent, there is a lack of tools because it's really, really hard 08:26:39 ...not a shock to say we have invested hundreds or thousands of dev manhours to solve that problem 08:26:45 ...nobody likes what we have come up 08:26:47 q+ 08:26:53 ...with; when it comes to responsive design 08:26:59 ...you cannot guess things 08:27:11 ...you either put in manual controls; put in break points and the like 08:27:21 ...that is too complex for public, although matches CSS model 08:27:26 q+ 08:27:29 ...or we go to heuristics and machine learning 08:27:39 ...great for average user but developer complains 08:27:43 ...it is a really hard problem 08:27:58 ...if you want response design, you have to start with responsive design in mind 08:28:01 ...that is very difficult 08:28:18 ...what does authoring in a responsive environment look like? That is a difficult problem to solve 08:28:21 ...we agree 08:28:29 ...and why CSS WG chair works for Adobe 08:28:33 q? 08:28:41 Laurent: 90 percent of designers are not developers 08:28:53 Leonard: right but those designers turn their work over to developers 08:29:03 ...people want to add these same things into their web sites 08:29:05 q? 08:29:13 ...how do you produce content that delivers all those results 08:29:16 ...as we look at it 08:29:20 ...just putting it into context 08:29:24 ack Ivan 08:29:24 ack ivan 08:29:43 Ivan: one more thing came up in the workshop that has a general messaage 08:29:44 [to Leonard's point, one of the many things I want publishers to teach the Web is how to bring the centuries of knowledge in book design to web tooling] 08:29:51 ...there has always been a strong reluctance 08:30:02 ...to consider using JavaScript for anything in the Publishing world 08:30:07 s/messaage/message/ 08:30:09 ...there are accessibility and security issues 08:30:23 ...I think that is a general reaction to look at a again and reconsider 08:30:33 ...we have to accept that layout effects are done in JS 08:30:44 ...some examples in the workshop, Rachel @ 08:30:52 ...we know about Houdini project in CSS work 08:31:07 ...that gives you environment to plug in CSS 08:31:18 ...have to incorporate in our thoughts 08:31:25 ...publishing world may need to do active scripting 08:31:36 ...active push away from scripting is not tenable for long 08:31:38 https://www.w3.org/publishing/events/tokyo18-workshop/report.html 08:31:39 Luc: Add on irc 08:31:47 ...one to the report that the chairs have written 08:31:52 https://www.edrlab.org/2018/09/26/w3c-tokyo-workshop-part-1/ 08:31:56 ...and the second is an EDRLab report on this subject 08:32:03 ...Laurent has three-part report 08:32:13 ...links to all the presentations are in the full report 08:32:20 ...way to have messages from this 08:32:30 Garth: time for a break 08:32:37 ...sounds like you have some homework, Liisa 08:32:45 ---- BREAK ---- 08:32:45











08:32:45 ...you will go back to BG and come back to us 08:32:47 JunGamo_ has joined #pwg 08:32:49 Liisa: thank you everyone 08:32:57 Tzviya: We will reconvene at 11:02 08:33:12 rrsagent, make minutes 08:33:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-minutes.html Karen 08:33:22
08:33:30 s/BREAK/
08:39:26 jeff_ has joined #pwg 08:43:20 glazou has joined #pwg 08:46:01 Judy has joined #pwg 08:47:57 naomi has joined #pwg 08:49:27 naomi_ has joined #pwg 08:51:14 skk has joined #pwg 08:52:48 naomi has joined #pwg 08:55:03 romain has joined #pwg 08:56:15 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 08:57:29 romain_ has joined #pwg 08:59:26 garth has joined #pwg 09:01:12 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 09:01:52 marisa has joined #pwg 09:04:07 Karen has joined #pwg 09:04:15 liisamk has joined #pwg 09:05:48 Avneesh has joined #pwg 09:08:00 scribenick: romain 09:11:42 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 09:11:43 ivan has joined #pwg 09:11:43 Topic: Synced media 09:11:43 marisa: let's talk about sync media and publications CG 09:11:46 Karen_ has joined #pwg 09:11:53 … what our findings are, what are the next step 09:12:10 … what's the technology selection process 09:12:13 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 09:12:23 … we want a way to sync pre-recorded audio clips with text in a web publication 09:12:38 … we don't want to interfere with the Web Pub itslef, but have an overlay with audio clips 09:12:50 … at last TPAC we showed what that could look like 09:13:00 s/itslef/itself/ 09:13:28 … so you have the text of your book displayed, some chunks highlighted, and at the same time you hear the audio for that chunk 09:13:28 JunGamo has joined #pwg 09:13:37 … the playback follows the hightlight 09:13:42 Hadrien has joined #pwg 09:13:50 … in order to do this we looked at the preexisting tech 09:13:50 https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub 09:13:55 Community Group: https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-pub/ 09:13:58 https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/blob/master/technology-selection.md 09:14:22 … it started at TPAC last year, and we looked at what was out there 09:14:38 … the 1st thing we considered is SMIL, which is used successfully in EPUB 3 09:14:55 … it can contain a pointer to the text document and a pointer to the audio clip 09:15:10 … unfortunately it's not very active as a standard, and has no browser support 09:15:25 liisamk: it works for picture books 09:15:34 marisa: yes, but it's not the most developer friendly format 09:15:50 … next is TTML2, but there's no way to point to a text HTML document 09:16:01 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 09:16:05 TTML = Timed Text Markup Language https://w3c.github.io/ttml2/index.html 09:16:06 … you could hack it, but it's not conveninent 09:16:20 … Web VTT does have borwser support 09:16:34 … but then you can't have nested, like you got in Media Overlays 09:16:41 s/borwser/browser/ 09:16:55 … so you can't have different granularity (read by paragraphs, then read by words) 09:17:01 s/conveninent/convenient 09:17:15 … Web Animations, is a cool spec but has no declarative syntax 09:17:41 … WebAnnotations has the right degree of pionters (text and audio) but has no processing model (can't play it from start to end) 09:17:58 … recently we were pointed at multidevice supprot and ??? 09:18:03 q+ 09:18:05 … but no processing model either 09:18:15 … next thing we want to look at is to roll our own 09:18:16 ack laudrain 09:18:25 q? 09:18:28 q? 09:18:29 ack leonardr 09:18:54 leonardr: did the group evaluate the possibility of going to TTML or WebVTT WG and asking for the necessary changes? 09:19:01 marisa: yes, I spoke to them 09:19:19 … having the text format in TTML just doesn't work for us 09:19:38 … ad they suggested to transform the content on the fly to HTML, but it's not realistic 09:19:57 DanieWeck: TTML is more advanced, it has its own layout and rendering model 09:20:06 ivan: what was the goal of TTML? 09:20:15 DanieWeck: settop boxes, captions 09:20:41 https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/blob/master/manifest-exts.md 09:21:00 DanieWeck: we're gonna look at the various additions we can make about the manifest 09:21:09 … and examples of JSON serialization for the model we're proposing 09:21:17 … not deviating much from EPUB 3 MO 09:21:31 … but conceptual extensions 09:21:50 [looking at the doc linked in IRC] 09:22:09 DanieWeck: we now that schema.org defines an audio book type, as an extension of book 09:22:29 … how we deal with Web Pub manifest when we want to enable a union of features from the book type and audiobook type 09:22:40 … do we want to epxlicitly refer to both type? 09:22:44 ivan: no 09:23:03 DanieWeck: we want to rely on the audiobook type as it gives us additional properties 09:23:14 … one of them is the 'readBy' property 09:23:39 … I'm skipping intentionally the discussion about the video book type 09:23:40 liisamk_ has joined #pwg 09:23:57 … we've discussed the syntax for the values of the duration 09:24:11 … s/duration/duration property/ 09:24:23 … we propose various syntaxes 09:24:41 q? 09:24:44 … we can align with the Media Fragment syntax 09:25:04 ivan: I'm wondering if the discussion we had with danbri is related to this 09:25:09 guest+ Janina 09:25:42 … I don't think schema.org would want to exclude the ISO syntax, but we could aslo extend to a simplified syntax 09:25:59 DanieWeck: if we want RS to support the spec, they'd have to implement support for these different syntaxes 09:26:11 … the onus is on the RS developers, we have to be mindful of that 09:26:25 … I'm not sure what it means in terms of process 09:26:43 tzviya: we can comment and follow up 09:27:03 DanieWeck: the duration property applies to the whole publication 09:27:15 … but can also be applied to individual links in the reading order 09:27:47 … in the case of a regular publication, audio files can appear in the resources and the duration property can apply there too 09:28:05 … these links are currently of type publicationLink 09:28:23 … but we could use the schema.org link role to make it more extensible 09:28:50 … about the properties specific to sync media 09:29:24 … in EPUB 3, when the text fragment is actively narrated, we set a color highlight with a CSS class 09:29:38 … there's a default CSS class and RS which support MO will inject that class in the doc 09:30:00 … since then, the CSS Selectors Level 4 introduced a new pseudo class called ':current' 09:30:03 📛 09:30:16 … and two other called ':passed' and ':future' 09:30:44 q? 09:30:49 … the stated use case is TTS read aloud, but it doesn't exclude our use case 09:30:57 s/📛/ 09:31:21 … we don't know what's the state of this pseudo-class in the CSS WG / specification process 09:32:16 ivan: how do they define what "current" means? 09:32:32 DanieWeck: to me it's still very much unclear, let's keep an eye on what's going on there 09:32:42 https://drafts.csswg.org/selectors-4/#active-pseudo 09:32:57 ivan: eventually they will have to define some sort of processing model and we'll have to see if it works for us 09:33:00 DanieWeck: correct 09:33:16 ivan: shouldn't we talk to them right now when it's still very open? 09:33:25 DanieWeck: yes, we just discovered this very recently 09:33:35 tzviya: is it the same thing as aria-active? 09:33:41 DanieWeck: it intersects 09:34:30 … what we're trying to achieve is to have enough in the mainstream manifest so we can use it for sync media 09:34:41 … we need a number of hooks in the Web Pub manifest format 09:35:07 … one of the issues we'll have is whether we want to group them under a namespace? 09:35:34 … important: we need to associate an HTML doc in the reading order (or resource list) with a synced media overlay 09:35:58 … we want to reference the overlay with a link 09:36:15 … we're proposing an additional property called "sync-media" which is a nested publication link 09:36:29 … it's implemented in Readium 2 (with a slightly different syntax) 09:36:34 Judy has joined #pwg 09:36:35 … so we now it's implementable 09:37:24 … that link would point to something equivalent to EPUB 3 MO, but simplified and using a JSON syntax 09:37:45 … we propose a media type for that JSON format "application/vnd.wp-sync-media+json" 09:37:51 q+ 09:37:56 … registration to IANA to be discussed 09:38:20 … it offers RS a way to discover the synced media overlays in the manifest, rather than checking for the extension of file content 09:38:27 s/of file/or file/ 09:38:51 … we discussed whether the duration should be attached to the main text document or to the JSON overlay 09:39:06 … we propose to attach it to the overlay 09:39:57 … Issue 6: one proposal is to have synced media resources in addition to resources and reading order 09:40:10 … having them grouped for ease of processing 09:40:58 George: so if I understand you have a regular Web Publication, and an audio publication, then a synced media that connects them both? 09:41:12 marisa: I think that references one of our overarching principle 09:41:25 … MO should be able to be packaged separately 09:41:39 DanieWeck: and you don't mean a ZIP file, but a way to define the resources together 09:41:53 marisa: yes, and we want to be compatible withe Audio Book TF 09:41:55 ack duga 09:42:12 duga: does this proposal still requires IDs on all elements that we want to highlight? 09:42:21 marisa: great question, we have to figure this out 09:43:22 DanieWeck: the grouping of resources is not specific to synced media, it can be a good use case for mainstream publications as well 09:43:45 q+ 09:43:52 … it can organize a very long list of resources 09:43:56 ack ivan 09:44:41 ivan: I understand the intention, but as we defined yesterday the boundaries of the Pub, we'd have to add up all these resources to the definition 09:44:57 … I'm a little bit worried about this kind of effect 09:45:16 DanieWeck: the meat of this proposal is a new fomat, the JSON media overlay 09:45:28 https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/blob/master/manifest-exts.md#1-sync-mediachapter1json 09:45:36 … it's based on the concept of the EPUB 3 MO, i.e. a tree that more or less maps to the HTML tree 09:45:53 … and define mappings between document fragments and audio chunks 09:46:24 … fragments are defined with fragment identifiers 09:46:49 … there is no industry standard to reference character ranges except CFI 09:47:00 … in this proposal we mention fragment IDs and CFIs 09:47:13 … it's designed to align with the OWP 09:47:36 … not using clipBegin/clipEnd in an XML syntax, but using the media fragment syntax 09:47:56 … the clock syntax is seconds.milliseconds 09:48:29 … the way we represent pairs of text/audio is to use JSON properties "text" and "audio" 09:48:44 q+ 09:48:53 ack ivan 09:48:57 … see the full example at the end of https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/blob/master/manifest-exts.md 09:49:03 q? 09:49:55 ivan: having played with SMIL, what surprises me is that we have to somehow reinvent the wheel, or at least redesign it 09:49:58 q+ 09:50:06 … it's a Web thing, it's not particular to Web Publications 09:50:17 DanieWeck: it's a CG, it's not tied to Web Pub 09:50:22 +1 to targeting the Web for these things 09:50:23 q+ 09:50:29 ivan: yes, but you formulate it with the Web Publications use case 09:50:36 q+ 09:50:44 … we have to be careful, we don't want people to think we're forking the Web 09:50:53 … we have to put it at the Web level 09:51:27 marisa: I think long range, having something like that on the Web is great 09:51:42 … but our personpower is very limited and our use case is very concrete 09:52:00 ivan: I'm almost sure that if we go with that as part of the recommendation then we'll create a tempest 09:52:06 ack Hadrien 09:52:07 … we can't avoid that to come at some point 09:52:24 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/experiments/audiobook/ 09:52:44 Hadrien: I pasted a link of a basic experiment of an audio book 09:52:45 guillaume has joined #pwg 09:52:58 … as a Web Pub, and your position is saved using local storage 09:53:14 … a demo of what we worked on, where WebPub is directly applicable 09:53:29 … creating something that works for this on the Web is easy 09:53:41 … if you're intersted, reach out 09:53:51 … it shows that audio books is a low hanging fruit 09:53:58 George: using pure audio and not sync media? 09:54:02 Hadrien: right 09:54:15 q? 09:54:18 ack bigbluehat 09:54:40 https://github.com/menismu/popcorn-js 09:54:40 bigbluehat: I wanted to +1 what ivan was saying that synced media is a general Web problem 09:54:48 https://github.com/mozilla/popcorn-js 09:54:54 … so we have to phrase it carefully 09:55:23 … the link I pasted was one such synced media format, using essentially timed-text like expressions in HTML 09:55:48 … a fork is somewhat active 09:55:58 Another implementation example (there are several): http://wam.inrialpes.fr/timesheets/ 09:55:58 :) 09:56:00 … I would suggest engaging with these people 09:56:12 … there are possibly still people at Mozilla who care about this project 09:56:25 … this was the Web-focused vision of it a few years ago 09:56:37 Also: https://www.w3.org/TR/timesheets/ 09:56:47 q+ 09:56:55 ack Avneesh 09:57:02 marisa: yes, it would be interesting to find out why they're not pursuing this 09:57:18 Avneesh: yes, it's not a Web Pub-specific thing, sure. 09:57:33 … but the main use case is for the publishing world 09:57:54 q+ 09:57:55 … we want to have audio overlays without having to change a Web Publication 09:58:08 I know TimeSheets, kaze did it 09:58:11 loooong ago 09:58:16 obsolete IIRC 09:58:17 q+ 09:58:29 … we don't need to put it as a Web Pub thing, but we need it and don't want to get lost by broadening the scope 09:58:37 Also: http://webtiming.github.io/timingobject/ 09:58:42 … we should focus on handling this use case first 09:59:04 … to address the issue of having it as part of the Web Pub specification, we can work in the CG 09:59:05 ack dauwhe 09:59:13 ack DanieWeck 09:59:26 DanieWeck: going back to Benjamin's mention of popcorn.js 09:59:48 … I'm familiar with this, also a couple other initiatives like timesheets 10:00:07 … more recently timingobject, which creates building blocks 10:00:19 … I completely align with Avneesh's comment there 10:00:36 ack Hadrien 10:00:37 … the main use case is sync media text/audio books now 10:01:12 Hadrien: you kinda a need to alter the text for this to work, because we're missing a good text fragment identifier 10:01:19 … for audio you can use media fragments 10:01:31 … for text currently you need IDs, which is less than ideal 10:01:45 … this goes way way beyond than synced media: bookmarks, annotations 10:01:55 not to mention, web annot selectors 10:02:15 … I'm wondering if that's not an example of sth that our group can work on and make a difference 10:02:19 ack ivan 10:02:50 ivan: Web Annotations has two different parts, one is the annotation itself (data structure), and one is the addressing part 10:03:09 … the addressing part goes beyond what the Web Annotation need, we had these discussions there too 10:03:23 … the other thing is that I don't think I disagree with Avneesh 10:03:32 … it's all a question of presentation 10:03:57 … if I just talk about "Web page" instead of "Web Publication" then there's no binding to this WG specifically 10:04:05 … it may be more politically acceptable 10:04:16 … the technology can be the same, defined in the CG 10:04:24 q+ 10:04:51 … my preference would then be to publish that as an independant specification 10:05:04 q? 10:05:20 ack dauwhe 10:05:21 DanieWeck: I agree with you Ivan 10:05:24 ack DanieWeck 10:05:53 … half of the proposal is glued to Web Pub, but the other half is generic and can be split 10:06:02 tzviya: what's the next step? how do we promote this? 10:06:20 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 10:06:27 janina: we were really concerned early-on about these dragons mentioned by Ivan 10:06:36 guests+ Janina_Sajka 10:06:50 … we heard Marisa yesterday, and it needs to be very clear that the existing technologies don't meet the requirements 10:07:01 … we would need an explainer 10:07:17 marisa: yes, these documents are recent and we want to make it an explainer 10:07:32 … what we would need is admnistrative guidance on where this work should happen 10:07:43 ivan: for the time being, doing what you do is fine, in the CF 10:07:47 s/CF/CG/ 10:07:59 … when you have a draft specification, we can see where to publish that 10:08:12 George: it wouldn't be included in Web Publications? 10:08:17 ivan: it could be… 10:08:35 … the core of it for me is this "mini-SMIL" has to be specified separately 10:08:53 … and then how this integrates in the Web Pub manifest is a different thing 10:09:22 tzviya: I will follow up with Marisa and Daniel in the PWG 10:09:41 … it will be on the agenda in a few weeks 10:09:52 [lunch break] 10:10:35 yanni has joined #pwg 10:11:37 10:16:38 naomi has joined #pwg 10:58:07 yanni has joined #pwg 11:05:09 leonardr has joined #pwg 11:08:35 gpellegrino has joined #pwg 11:09:31 laudrain has joined #pwg 11:12:24 romain has joined #pwg 11:12:54 Ariel has joined #pwg 11:13:02 garth has joined #pwg 11:13:05 yanni has joined #pwg 11:15:28 romain_ has joined #pwg 11:16:38 ivan has joined #pwg 11:18:08 dauwhe has joined #pwg 11:19:00 leonardr has joined #pwg 11:20:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:20:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan 11:20:56 clapierre has joined #pwg 11:23:01 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 11:23:03 Zakim, pick a Bill 11:23:03 I don't understand 'pick a Bill', dauwhe 11:23:04 liisamk has joined #pwg 11:23:20 scribenick George 11:23:26 guillaume has joined #pwg 11:23:35 Avneesh has joined #pwg 11:23:36 Topic: EPUB4 11:23:36 scribenick: George 11:23:38 DanielWeck has joined #pwg 11:24:06 Hadrien has joined #pwg 11:24:16 We have EPUB 4 followed by Audio books.. 11:24:17 marisa has joined #pwg 11:24:56 s/We have/Garth: We have/ 11:25:08 JunGamo has joined #pwg 11:25:09 Garth has some notes for this topic. EPUB 4 as a concept has more relevance to many of the members of the WG. 11:25:20 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 11:25:47 We talked about this this morning in the business session. 11:25:54 q+ 11:26:41 Karen has joined #pwg 11:26:42 Because of the status of EPUB 3.2 ,, we are unclear about what EPUB4 should do. 11:27:21 Before the discussion at business, EPUB4 was going to be a packaging of the WebPub. 11:28:21 The boundry is special in web publications. If you are making an EPUB4 from a web pub, it must be bounded. The packaged version would have the right stuff. 11:29:19 The resources in EPUB 3.2 is a feature, but other people see it as redundant. 11:29:51 If we are thinking of EPUB 4 as having bounds, the question of resource list is interesting. 11:30:06 q+ 11:30:22 naomi has joined #pwg 11:30:34 Perhaps EPUB4 is not bring a lot; however if we look at what is lacking, the aubio book space is it. 11:31:02 What is being received for distribution is all over the planet and it is ugly. 11:31:30 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 11:31:47 Most of what we did from whole cloth was not adopted. 11:32:28 If we look at audio books, we have an opportunity to spec it without retooling, they could ingest that content. 11:32:45 Question is will the publishers adot what we spec out. 11:34:12 q? 11:34:21 ack dauwhe 11:34:21 q+ 11:34:22 Garth's suggestion is to explore we keep a package of what we have like EPUB 3.2 for audio books. 11:35:02 q? 11:35:02 Dave:...What sort of things shoauld be called EPUB versus something else. 11:35:25 s/shoauld/should 11:35:26 q+ 11:35:46 s/Dave:…W/dauwhe: W/ 11:35:51 Technically EPUB is the content, metadata, packaging. If we replace the OCF with something else is it still EPUB, probably. 11:36:04 s/adot/adopt 11:36:17 There is a more fundamental issue. There is the web model and this EPUB model. 11:36:51 In EPUB, you take this content and bundle it and hand it to somebody for distribution. 11:36:51 +1000 to dauwhe 11:37:18 https://resilientwebdesign.com 11:37:31 +1 to dauwhe 11:37:31 Our description of WP falls between the cracks. We have WP and do what they do on the web. 11:38:06 q? 11:38:16 I wonder what we are doing with this distinction. Are we just bundling up to send to somebody? 11:38:28 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 11:38:40 q? 11:38:51 Garth:...if we change the manafest to JSON and bundle it up, it is still EPUB. 11:39:02 q+ 11:39:11 s/manafest/manifest 11:39:38 We can correctly use the term EPUB for stuff that is packaged upp and sent out. Where WP is a web hosted thing. 11:40:25 Dave:...web packaging may change that model. It is a potentila bridge between the WP and EPUB. 11:40:33 q? 11:40:52 s/potentila/potential 11:41:09 ack Hadrien 11:41:16 q+ to address the fact that there is more than one business model 11:41:21 We as publishers wanto use more of those web 11:41:41 q+ 11:41:45 s/wanto/want to/ 11:42:19 Hadrien Hadrien : 11:42:20 ...We see people using EPUB and it is not really meant for them. 11:42:45 ...With EPUB there is a lot of baggage.Things that do not make a whole lot of sence. 11:42:51 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 11:43:02 ack liisamk 11:43:02 q+ 11:43:09 ...We could start from scratch and design for what we need. 11:43:10 s/sence/sense 11:43:27 s/baggage.Things/baggage. Things 11:43:31 q- 11:43:40 q- 11:44:15 q? 11:44:19 Liisa: 11:44:21 ack Avneesh 11:44:21 ...I struggle to understand how we can resolve problems. The audio book is very timley. We can solve problems for this fast growing area that has no standards. 11:44:26 Avneesh: 11:44:38 Judy has joined #pwg 11:45:03 ...If I look from outside, it will be difficult to explain EPUB 3.2 and EPUB 4. 11:45:15 +1 to Avneesh 11:45:26 ...Perhaps put EPUB 4 in a freeser and wanit for a better time. 11:45:39 +1 to Avneesh 11:45:41 s/freeser/freezer 11:45:56 ...Some markets will find WP to be very important to their segment. 11:46:13 s/wanit/wait 11:46:22 ...We can make an informed decision in a few years. 11:46:47 ? 11:46:49 q? 11:47:21 ...Audio books we can move forward on. We should have an audio book community group. 11:47:23 George: 11:47:26 ack tzviya 11:47:26 tzviya, you wanted to address the fact that there is more than one business model 11:47:26 q- 11:47:34 ...Great idea for the audio book CG. 11:47:40 Tzviya: 11:48:00 q+ 11:48:06 q+ 11:48:10 ...We need to move forward with an audio book spec. 11:48:18 q+ 11:48:39 ...Iceboxing of EPUB 4. 11:49:00 q? 11:49:12 Avneesh_ has joined #pwg 11:49:36 ...WPwe don't exactly know what the path forward is. 11:49:40 Garth: 11:50:08 q+ 11:50:22 ...WP could continue in this WG or in a CG. It should continue in some way. 11:50:35 Tzviya: 11:50:37 q? 11:50:48 ...WP as it is today I will not implement. 11:51:02 q+ 11:51:08 Luc: 11:51:26 q+ 11:51:35 s/Luc:/laudrain:/ 11:51:42 q- 11:52:04 ...EPUB 3.2 on a rec track will be proposed to the PBG. What will happen to EPUB 3.2 would come from the BG. 11:52:29 q? 11:52:33 ack laudrain 11:52:38 llisamk has joined #pwg 11:52:51 Hadrien : 11:52:55 ack Hadrien 11:53:13 ....Tech specs can take a long time. Implementations can take longer. 11:53:36 ...I don't know that iceboxing is the right approach. 11:54:18 ...From a tech spec perspective, this not does not make sence. 11:54:25 Garth: 11:54:43 ...EPUB 4 moving forward creates market confusion. 11:54:54 q? 11:54:56 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 11:55:01 ack ivan 11:55:08 Ivan: 11:56:27 q+ 11:56:51 Let's continue with WPub and eventually EPUB 4 would make sence. WPub may be appealing in the future. 11:57:35 ...Audio books could be published directly, which would be a good thing. 11:57:52 s/sence/sense 11:57:56 naomi has joined #pwg 11:58:02 ...WP gives us a framework to work on a number of things. 11:58:34 Garth: 11:59:07 q+ 11:59:14 ...WP continuining, epub 3.2 rec track possibly, and audio books as a special case of WP. 11:59:23 naomi_ has joined #pwg 11:59:30 a? 11:59:33 q 11:59:35 q? 11:59:45 scribenick: DanielWeck 11:59:48 scribenick DanielWEck 11:59:54 scribenick DanielWeck 12:00:01 George: audio spec: rec track? 12:00:13 q- 12:00:21 q+ 12:00:24 Garth: possibly an ouput of this group 12:00:25 ack leonardr 12:01:20 leonardr: core responsibility bring pub-specifica aspects to the web 12:01:33 help the web evolve, things special to publications, we want into core web platform 12:01:36 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:01:40 q? 12:02:05 ack Avneesh 12:02:42 avneesh: working group, innovations in WP, such as audio books, gather feedback, leads to specification work 12:03:19 rec track for EPUB 3.2: no need to fix all details now, need open view on what will be tested / implemented, etc. 12:03:32 ack romain 12:03:42 Romain: can someone clarify re-chartering? 12:03:44 Judy has joined #pwg 12:04:09 q? 12:04:11 Ivan: process-wise, replace current charter with new+removed work items etc. 12:04:54 q? 12:05:12 first this community needs consensus, then other members to support it (W3C -wide) 12:05:17 q? 12:05:21 q+ 12:05:43 Dave: re-chartering opportunity to get objections to recharter again 12:06:25 Combining IDPF into W3C: EPUB 3.2 not "exactly" a web thing 12:06:41 make heritage of EPUB "web things" 12:06:55 q+ 12:07:12 Tzvia: ISO relevant too? 12:07:20 ack karen 12:08:02 Karent: conversations / outreach to broader community 12:08:07 s/Karent/Karen 12:08:20 ack duga 12:08:47 Brady: differences between adopters / stakeholders for EPUB vs. WP (audiobook market, etc.) 12:08:56 audiobook closer to EPUB than WP 12:08:57 q+ 12:09:00 q? 12:09:01 q+ 12:09:02 q? 12:09:31 Ivan: EPUB3.2 requires technical changes to support audio books? 12:09:33 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:10:01 Ivan: EPUB 3.2 needs interoperability testing, etc. 12:10:15 Brady: focus should be on packaged audio book 12:10:44 starting from unpackageed (WP) to packageed (EPUB) causes production problems 12:10:52 q+ 12:10:55 (challenges) 12:11:09 business need: packaged audio book, no need to address online / web audio book 12:11:24 (Brady's view) 12:11:28 q+ 12:12:20 ack George 12:12:27 Garth: leverage work in WP audio books (no packaged / zipped), let's not open can of worms of modifying EPUB to support this 12:13:10 George: trademark audiopub book would be good (communication / marketing) to outreach to industry people who have this specific need 12:13:11 s/no packaged/not Web Packaging packaged yet/ 12:13:27 https://www.audiopub.com 12:13:53 George: incentivize other market segments to join the broader group 12:14:22 George: EPUB3 Media Overlays already supports audio, but too complicated 12:14:32 q? 12:14:33 q? 12:14:39 ack dauwhe 12:15:01 Dave: open question about evolutionary potential of EPUB 3.x 12:15:11 audio file MP3 could be spine item 12:15:13 (e.g.) 12:15:17 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:15:53 Dave: EPUB 3.2 currently draft community group report, so can be changed 12:16:06 if compeling reason that can be done without current framework, then let's do it 12:16:11 ack Hadrien 12:16:29 Hadrien: there is definitely a need for audiobook in WP 12:16:50 stream audio books (not just public domain) 12:16:52 q? 12:17:09 q+ 12:17:21 commercial audio book market, no need for DRM, just need manifest to handle that part of the user experience 12:17:28 Brady: I do not disagree 12:17:45 ack Avneesh 12:17:52 There are two uses: WP and packaged, two different things / market needs 12:18:04 Avneesh: charter scope broad, do we need to broaden? 12:18:29 WP Charter would need removing EPUB4 removal, that's all (need to re-charter?) 12:18:59 Ivan: we could create separate working grou p for 3.2 12:19:22 convince W3C management that charter interpretation is correct 12:19:30 +1 to Ivan. Separate WG for EPUB 3.x 12:19:40 +1 12:19:49 q- 12:19:54 Ivan: not a clean way of doing it 12:20:02 ...keep one Working Group 12:20:02 q? 12:20:21 horiuchi has joined #pwg 12:20:27 Avneesh: EPUB3.2 and WP different objectives, target audiences 12:20:40 q+ 12:20:46 ...if we decide rec track for EPU3.2 for existing publishers 12:20:56 ack liisamk 12:20:58 ...WP different charter possible 12:21:01 q? 12:21:06 ack liisamk 12:21:21 ack liisamk 12:21:22 Lisa: audio podcasts, not just "audio books" 12:21:46 ...another community to reach out ot 12:21:46 ack liisamk 12:21:49 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:21:51 q? 12:21:52 ack llisamk 12:21:53 ack laudrain 12:22:07 +1 Luc 12:22:18 Luc: I don't see how for EPUB 3.2 this would make sense 12:22:21 (rec track) 12:22:32 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 12:23:06 Garth: it would be a recharter so that the group can work formally on WP and EPUB3.x 12:23:14 q+ 12:23:16 q+ 12:23:28 Ivan: for example Web Architecture works on several rec tracks in parallel / work items 12:23:42 ...maybe separate WP and EPUB concalls / task forces 12:23:43 q? 12:23:51 ...it is up to us to see how we proceed 12:24:09 q+ 12:24:17 ack Avneesh 12:24:18 a? 12:24:19 Avneesh: agree. WP = more involvement of web community, dissociated from the EPUB work 12:24:21 q? 12:24:32 q+ 12:24:38 ...EPUB 3.2 to meet the needs of publishing world 12:25:00 Garth: this group is umbrella vs. some other organisation is a detail 12:25:10 ack laurentlemeur 12:25:28 Laurent: EPUB 3.2 to rec track is not interesting for publishing business, and it is a can of worms 12:25:38 liisamk_ has joined #pwg 12:25:52 q? 12:25:54 q- 12:26:01 ...audio books need package format, so why would zip be less interesting than Web Packaging format 12:26:05 q? 12:26:06 (short term) 12:26:25 q? 12:26:27 Garth: Web Packaging is a long way off, right now we can use zip 12:26:29 ack tzviya 12:26:54 Tzviya: if we split WP EPUB groups we will isolate brains 12:27:06 ...lots of us work in ebooks, 12:27:10 q+ 12:27:21 ...we need to talk to other groups (web people) 12:27:31 ...e.g. benefits of Service Workers, etc. 12:27:37 ...lots of technical overlap 12:27:49 q? 12:27:52 q+ 12:28:08 ...they will do work with us, but we need to present a EPUB evolution message 12:28:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:28:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan 12:28:22 ...stop thinking as business model driving factor for technology 12:28:22 q? 12:28:27 +1 12:28:32 ack laudrain 12:28:45 Luc: concern - how to sell this to the publishing industry 12:29:30 ...EPUB 3.2 to rec track at the condition that this does not modify significantly the technical underpinnings (heavy investment cost) 12:29:32 ack dauwhe 12:29:51 Dave: fix reading system bugs in ecosystem 12:31:17 ...talking to the rest of the web: TAG, etc. people interested want to help, but we need advice on high arch level, need to figure out how to communicate our needs 12:31:20 q? 12:31:25 q+ 12:31:26 ...solutions likely to come from them 12:31:47 ...create an environment where they will want to help us 12:32:00 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:32:03 q? 12:32:30 ...system design / integration, EPUB so far from the web, need their help to get closer 12:32:49 ...communicate what we want without implying we have a solution (can come across off-putting) 12:32:50 Ralph has joined #pwg 12:33:00 George: can we engage without rechartering? 12:33:09 q? 12:33:13 Dave: interesting to have converstation about that 12:33:18 ack ivan 12:33:30 s/without/them about/ 12:34:18 Ivan: now convinced better keep group as single task force 12:34:55 q? 12:35:06 ...publishing community still seen by rest of web community as strange, so better preserve existing weight of working group to influence 12:35:21 ...let's avoid breaking down / splitting the group 12:35:37 q+ 12:35:45 ...if there was EPU3.2 -specific group there would be increased isolation 12:36:16 q? 12:36:38 Laurent: my point was Business Group to study EPUB 3.2 on rec track 12:36:45 ...not to advocate splitting 12:36:50 Ivan: some want ISO 12:37:13 ...transition from Community Group to ISO is horrible. Better through W3C rec track 12:37:19 ...more effective 12:37:20 q? 12:37:20 q+ 12:37:28 ack liisamk 12:38:42 Liisa: minimal viable product, for as long as we've had EPUB, this is baseline level of support (fonts, pagination, etc.) functional scope figured-out by reading system implementators 12:39:16 Ivan: take EPUB features, demonstrate in reading systems 12:39:25 ...show it is not doable on the web 12:39:31 ack Avneesh 12:39:44 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:39:48 Avneesh: single group more difficult to manage, but better for integration 12:39:58 ...EPUB3.2 rec track too early to make decisions 12:40:06 q? 12:40:07 ...kind of research project (ISO, etc.) 12:40:10 q+ 12:40:21 ...too premature to make decisions now about rec track 12:40:48 Tzviya: IG had many task forces / "working groups" 12:40:55 ...CSS has many documents at the same time 12:41:27 q? 12:41:29 ...idea of sticking to separating working group seems very expensive 12:41:41 ...(management costs, time, overhead) 12:41:46 ack laudrain 12:42:23 q? 12:42:39 Luc: decision by end of november feasible? 12:43:25 Ivan: need to timetable next year's meetings 12:43:35 q? 12:43:42 ...Laurent EDRLab Digital Publishing Symposium 12:43:58 ...workshop on archival of web content 12:44:41 ...tentatively begin of May 6-7 Mon-Tues most probably Cambridge MA 12:44:49 dauwhe has joined #pwg 12:44:51 ...think about it :) 12:45:06 naomi has joined #pwg 12:45:10 ...week of June 3rd 12:45:12 s/workshop of archival of web content/ PWG F2F 12:45:26 ...in Paris for workshop + symposium 12:45:50 Cambridge MA maybe Google, Hachette, MIT 12:45:59 Paris maybe BNF national library 12:46:29 Cambridge MA is for FTF (not workshop + symposium) 12:46:43 Boston marathon is week after 12:46:56 people leaving the room for AC meeting 12:47:00 BREAK. 12:47:04 Karen has joined #pwg 12:47:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:47:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan 12:47:23 s/Symposium/Summit 12:47:32 horiuchi has joined #pwg 12:48:10 Karen has joined #pwg 12:48:28 horiuchi has joined #pwg 12:48:35 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 12:49:22 horiuchi has joined #pwg 12:49:47 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 12:50:22 naomi_ has joined #pwg 12:51:34 horiuchi_ has joined #pwg 12:55:51 horiuch__ has joined #pwg 12:56:16 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 12:57:39 clapierre has joined #pwg 13:00:53 Judy has joined #pwg 13:01:36 laudrain has joined #pwg 13:02:13 naomi has joined #pwg 13:02:36 Judy_alt has joined #pwg 13:03:24 horiuchi has joined #pwg 13:04:23 clapierre has left #pwg 13:04:54 Ariel has joined #pwg 13:05:06 Karen has joined #pwg 13:13:47 garth has joined #pwg 13:16:18 horiuchi has joined #pwg 13:16:19 dauwhe has joined #pwg 13:17:15 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 13:20:28 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 13:22:27 George_ has joined #pwg 13:23:33 Hadrien has joined #pwg 13:26:33 ivan has joined #pwg 13:27:39 romain has joined #pwg 13:28:12 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 13:29:16 guillaume has joined #pwg 13:30:05 Topic: Audiobooks 13:30:16 DanielWeck has joined #pwg 13:30:25 scribenick: duga 13:30:26 scribenick: Garth 13:31:01 Wendy: Last session — woo hoo! 13:31:27 … update on AUdioBooks (AB) task force. 13:31:53 — Current state: AB TF formed in May 13:32:02 s/—/…/ 13:32:21 … Focus has been on WP (not EPUB 4, to be named later) 13:32:37 — Working sample of audio-only AB 13:32:47 … on Web and Android 13:32:51 … A couple of issues 13:32:55 marisa has joined #pwg 13:33:22 … Hurdle to reslolutions: lack of use cases; have worked recently on these 13:33:53 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JZfSLE_cO1g3jgpHMx8Q99rQBwGyhOFwNWvfXAwW5Fg/ 13:34:06 … Audio WP has a player than move forward/back, can play, provide metadata, change playback speed, retain position 13:34:15 … online, offline, stremable. 13:34:34 s/stremable/streamable/ 13:34:38 … AB WP open-able useable in non-WP-aware browser. 13:34:44 scribenick: JuanCorona 13:35:13 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#audiobook 13:35:17 q? 13:35:23 present+ 13:36:03 ivan: on non WP browsers, the term is fuzzy 13:36:15 ...JS usage these days makes this hard to address 13:36:37 .. WPs with JS bridges problems on browsers.. but what category is this? 13:37:14 Hadrien: yes, but you can listen to tracks and skip around 13:37:41 ... but we need more than that, we need JS to do more 13:38:31 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 13:38:45 Wendy: we have some posted issues, for use cases, here they are: 13:38:50 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/307 13:39:03 *Hadrien's demo too* 13:39:07 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/experiments/audiobook/ 13:39:26 Wendy: schema.org issues with duration, you need the total pub for the whole pub 13:39:38 q+ 13:39:49 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/308 13:39:51 ... individual elements too, to let the user know the progression at the chapter 13:40:14 Second issue: bitrate, format 13:40:30 ... thanks to the discussions yesterday, hopefully we can come to a resolution 13:41:01 ... so let's close some issues and continue 13:41:20 (chatter among the group) technical details 13:41:57 q+ 13:42:30 Media Fragment URI uses NPT Normal Play Time https://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/#naming-time 13:43:04 Hadrien has joined #pwg 13:43:06 Ivan: let's stick to what we have now, because we ran out of time for the draft 13:43:19 horiuchi has left #pwg 13:43:21 latest Normal Play Time (NPT) RFC https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7826#section-4.4.2 13:43:25 ISO 8601 not suitable, hoping duration from Schema.org will be ammended https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Durations (affects totalTime too from Schema) 13:43:33 ... introducing our own element now is not viable 13:43:44 wendy: let's close this issue 13:44:04 george: not sure if we need the duration for each chapter 13:44:25 ... there's the use case but people just want to know the book duration 13:44:46 ... everything else could be calculated along, from the files 13:45:17 wendy: but there's a track, we do get them as individual files, sometimes. but we get them as tracks instead most of the time 13:45:35 ... it's to get the best UX 13:45:56 ... I want to know I'm 5 mins into a 25 min chapter for ex. 13:46:27 george: so you get them as tracks.. you process them.. but what do you need? 13:46:48 q? 13:46:52 ack George 13:47:03 wendy: it's more complicated than that though 13:47:11 it's not 1:1 13:47:20 ack duga 13:47:46 brady: my question is like georges, wendy is this reflecting what's current now? 13:48:28 ... duration in the metadata is one form for us, but it's not accurate. It's concerning to have it like this 13:48:44 wendy: let's talk about it, how does a pub look like when it's packaged 13:48:54 bigbluehat RFC 2326 is referenced normatively by Media Fragment URI, do you suggest we explicitly reference RFC 7826 instead? 13:49:05 ... duration is on the chopping block I know, but we need it for the UX 13:49:44 brady: ToC, chapters mapped to the range of the chapters/tracks... you need to know how to calculate it. 13:50:11 DanielWeck: RFC 2326 states it's obsoleted by RFC 7826, so I'd link to the newer one 13:50:13 george: audio file sequence, you have a pointer to the beginning or the offset. 13:51:05 brady: if you have the info before hand you can calc it. but in the web you don't know this info until you download it all 13:51:22 romain: its a metadata issue, not a playback issue 13:51:40 garth: george you are right you can calc it, but it's hard when you are streaming it 13:51:59 q? 13:52:58 wendy: we need to know where in the chapter you are, with knowing the duration and offsets mixed with aggregation of the chapters or not 13:53:36 lloyd: do we need to have an API and the player to coordinate this 13:53:57 brady: would the publishers give us this detailed ToC information? 13:54:16 q? 13:54:27 wendy: the spec won't eliminate this missing data, or bad data, but we can validate it and provide feedback 13:55:40 daniel: there are different ways to organize the files, theres a case theres a chapter with a title, 13:55:54 or more sophisticated with a ToC, and files contain more than one chapter 13:56:12 present+ Lloyd Rasmussen 13:56:14 q+ 13:56:24 ... have the information on the manifest, along with the link 13:56:31 any objections to this? 13:56:59 wendy: close issue with duration, use npt, until we get a new direction 13:57:28 daniel: media fragments has a different reference 13:57:36 benjamin: there is a new one 13:57:45 leonard: is it compatible with media fragments? 13:58:32 benjamin: depends on what you are using, if npt> link,, to reference the new rfc coordinate with that group. 13:59:04 wendy: media fragments for now then 13:59:11 Resolution: Close issue #307 (duration) after discussion with schema, we will use NPT (Media Fragments) until they confirm or inform us otherwise 13:59:11 ... research needs to be done 13:59:20 q? 13:59:29 ack bigbluehat 13:59:35 Avneesh has joined #pwg 13:59:36 benjamin: general question, not on the TF sorry. 13:59:46 ... it's not essential for pkg, its for navigation 13:59:50 why is it in the manifest? 13:59:54 it looks like annotation 14:00:03 .. could it be on its own 14:00:27 ... someone could share this info like an annotation 14:00:44 I feel like this content is not essential to the manifest, it could be tripped on 14:01:27 Ivan: These are props on the media itself, but let's not split on the semantics. What's kosher here.. 14:01:46 wendy: this is in the proper context though, this is out leading solution for now 14:02:11 benjamin: there's too much going on on many spaces 14:02:22 ... a track in HTML5 is something else 14:02:32 ... HTML wants a playlist system, it's missing 14:02:57 ... this is a good use case, to converge with. 14:03:04 q? 14:03:14 daniel: this is the reading order 14:03:27 ... page-list, audio streams 14:03:44 wendy: any objections to close this? 14:04:01 daniel: who edited the draft? 14:04:14 ivan: this is for me, tbd in a PR 14:04:29 ivan: not for me 14:04:43 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/308 14:04:44 scribenick DanielWeck 14:05:06 romain has left #pwg 14:05:08 Wendy: issue 308 bitrate, alt formats 14:05:13 romain has joined #pwg 14:05:16 Subtopic: Alternate formats or bitrate for an audiobook 308 14:05:32 Wendy: no normative statement about which format MUST be used 14:06:05 ...but we need a way to indicate what format is referenced (for streaming etc.) for reading systems / player implementations 14:06:14 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 14:06:22 ...make decisions about what to download / cache 14:06:34 ...use case for different qualities 14:06:46 q+ 14:06:56 ...content creator to communicate bitrate, at the very least 14:06:56 ack duga 14:07:05 Brady: should this group handle this issue 14:07:35 ...what about formats that have multiple bitrates etc 14:07:57 Ivan: agree, should not discuss here. 14:08:39 Laurent: alternative renditions of same content, DASH better because bundles multiple alternatives 14:08:54 ....user agent to choose alt based on metadata expressed in manifest 14:08:57 q+ 14:09:03 Garth: what is the real-world use case 14:09:12 ...in trade world 14:09:21 q+ 14:09:24 Wendy: Audible does it, but not at distribution stage 14:09:54 Marisa: what's special about audio books is that HTML mechanisms cannot be used in manifest 14:10:02 Hadrien: only works for formats on audio and video (HTML) 14:10:35 ...we have to address this issue if we want a solution that works everywhere 14:10:35 q? 14:10:39 ack marisa 14:10:46 ack duga 14:10:49 JunGamo has joined #pwg 14:10:53 q+ 14:10:58 Brady: if we allow this, we then need a fallback mechanism 14:11:11 ...this is complicated 14:11:57 ...create multiple version of the book instead of bundling / declaring the alternatives inside a single publication 14:12:13 George: what about ingestion? 14:12:24 q+ 14:12:32 q- 14:12:37 Wendy: ingestion, we would be checking the files 14:12:42 ack bigbluehat 14:13:26 Benjamin': HTML audio video do not include bitrate, selection based on format 14:14:46 ...EPUB vs. WP audience, but I realized audiobook work predates all of this, venturing into solving problems that are solved at different level on web 14:15:19 q? 14:15:29 q+ 14:16:04 Hadrien: content negociation not likely to happen for audio files 14:16:08 q+ 14:16:11 ack Hadrien 14:16:13 ...content management backend not smart enough 14:16:38 ...some other group will have to deal with this, if this group / we don't do it 14:17:07 https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.html#dom-htmlsourceelement-media 14:17:07 ack bigbluehat 14:17:08 q+ 14:17:12 q+ 14:17:26 Benjamin: not asking about content negociation, just the HTML media source spec 14:19:19 ack DanielWeck 14:20:07 Romain: responsive image community group 14:20:19 ack romain 14:20:37 ...user agent to negociate, HTML picture element source media 14:20:57 ...new HTML element + extended source element to allow for content negociation 14:22:10 q+ 14:22:15 ...we could reuse constructs semantics , but would need to define processing model 14:22:37 Benjamin: this is the crux of the issue (processing model HTML vs. Web Pub manifest 14:22:44 ack bigbluehat 14:23:41 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.html#the-picture-element Picture element 14:23:55 Wendy: 308 need more thinking 14:24:22 scribenick Laurent 14:24:27 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/322 14:24:42 Wendy: issue 322 mixed media 14:24:54 Subtopic: Mixed media in audiobook linear reading order #322 14:25:29 ...audiobook readers don't support supplemental content (sc) 14:25:47 WP can help supporting sc 14:25:50 naomi has joined #pwg 14:26:07 ...the topic is important for the WG as a whole 14:26:38 q+ 14:26:51 ...publisher will probably mix content in WP even if this is not stated good practice. 14:26:54 q+ 14:27:48 q? 14:27:53 ack Hadrien 14:27:53 ...an ad could be insterd in the middle of an audiobook 14:28:20 Hadrien: my concern is that we won't be able to easily identifiy such supplemental content 14:28:42 ...the UA will discover it when it tries to fetch it. 14:28:52 q? 14:29:04 ack duga 14:29:05 q+ 14:29:13 q+ 14:29:19 q+ 14:29:48 Brady: maybe not too bad. Some annoying cases will arise. And there is no processing model defined. 14:30:00 q+ 14:30:37 q+ 14:30:38 ...A use case may be show a picture of a character + play the corresponding audio 14:30:52 ack JuanCorona 14:31:03 ...but without processing model, we don't know what to do. 14:31:27 Juan: why don't specify a duration with an image? 14:31:59 ack George 14:32:05 George: we could put the image in the ToC. 14:32:18 ack ivan 14:32:23 q+ to say that this issue is mostly with "readingOrder", not "resources" or ToC 14:32:25 ...but it's going in the sync media model 14:32:50 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 14:32:57 Ivan: I don't understand. Each item in the reading order has a media-type. 14:33:32 ...the media-type may be wrong but specification wise, this is a fact. 14:34:23 Hadrien: therefore for an audiobook it"s a requirement to add a media-type. I'm ok. 14:34:40 q? 14:35:00 ack marisa 14:35:54 Marisa:this sounds like a case for sync-media. Pure audiobook and sync-media should have proper overlap so that audiobooks can get such bells and whistles. 14:35:58 q+ 14:36:01 ack garth 14:36:47 Garth:the generic case is a business book with tables, and a pdf. 14:37:18 George:we could do it with a ToC. 14:38:03 Wendy: it conrresponds to a use case in which the ToC has images. 14:39:21 q+ 14:39:52 ack Hadrien 14:39:52 Hadrien, you wanted to say that this issue is mostly with "readingOrder", not "resources" or ToC 14:40:28 q? 14:40:32 Ivan: in fact in the current spec there is no default. A resource should be an html (by default), if no media type is given. In an audiobook each item would therefore get a media-type. 14:40:43 Bobbytung has joined #pwg 14:41:00 s/get/require 14:42:09 q? 14:43:36 Hadrien: the problem is only when there is mixed content. It would be reasonable that if a WP is typed "audiobook", it should contain only audio files. 14:44:25 proposed: if a string appears in readingOrder/resources/links, the canonical manifest should include a Publication link for that URL signaled as text/html 14:44:27 Wendy:or if all resources are audio files the UA sees it as an audiobook and treat it differently than a generic ebook. 14:44:30 q? 14:44:38 Audio book may be a profile, which allows to say that it is recommended to have audio content in default reading order 14:45:34 proposed: if a string, or a PublicaitonLink without encoding format, appears in readingOrder/resources/links, the canonical manifest should include a Publication link for that URL signaled as text/html 14:45:54 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 14:46:18 resolved: if a string, or a PublicaitonLink without encoding format, appears in readingOrder/resources/links, the canonical manifest should include a Publication link for that URL signaled as text/html 14:46:22 q? 14:47:29 +1 Garth for default == undefined (not HTML) 14:47:30 Brady: you say that by default, even for an "audiobook", the content is html. This would make a stupid format. 14:47:39 s/garth/brady/ 14:48:00 q+ 14:48:05 q? 14:49:26 Ivan: how to be sure the content is an audio file only from its media type? 14:50:03 Daniel: we're deviating from the web, where the media-type triggers behaviour in the UA 14:50:10 q+ to talk about "reading modes" 14:50:13 resolved: previous resolution rejected:-) 14:51:08 George: does epubcheck goes through an confirms the media type of content? 14:51:11 q- 14:51:27 q+ 14:51:30 Ivan: if there is no explicit media type there is no checking. 14:52:01 q? 14:52:05 ack DanielWeck 14:52:18 Daniel: the same remarks we made about mixing content applies to comics also. 14:52:35 ack bigbluehat 14:52:38 q+ 14:53:37 Bigbluehat:this discussion is not great for web browsers 14:53:43 ack DanielWeck 14:53:46 naomi has joined #pwg 14:54:19 zakim, close the queue 14:54:19 ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed 14:55:23 q? 14:55:56 to DanielWeck's point: {"@context": "http://schema.org/", "@id": "http://w3.org/", "@type": "AudioBook"} is correct (but rather insane) JSON-LD 14:56:43 Daniel: where to I get the information of book vs audiobook? the audiobook type in the manifest just states the schema.org schema will validate some metadata. 14:57:18 ack Hadrien 14:57:18 Hadrien, you wanted to talk about "reading modes" 14:57:40 Laurent: the meaning of "audiobook" should be stronger than that and indicate also that it contains audio 14:58:00 Daniel: for sync-media we use "audiobook" with html content. 14:58:07 ... I'll open an issue. 14:58:30 q- 14:58:41 Hardien: hint should not be trusted. You should prepare for fallback when sometihng goes wrong. 14:58:51 q? 14:59:30 q+ 15:00:44 Ivan: general question: we discussed about a minimum viable WP. Today we described a minimal viable audiobook. does it mean that we have a different minimal ebook vs audiobook reader? 15:00:57 Wendy: the minimum features are the same. 15:01:19 Ivan: the MVbook there is no notion that I know where I am. 15:01:42 Hadrien: that was more about non WP-aware UA. 15:02:13 Garth: we hgave 2 or 3 must fo WP UA, seems they apply on audiobooks. 15:02:51 Wendy: next steps = draft sections that we do have, we have a working example. 15:02:53 s/hgave/have/ 15:02:54 subtopic: next steps 15:03:13 ...I want to talk to the industry, talk to the audiobook publishers. 15:03:20 filed new issue: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/351 15:03:43 Hadrien: publishers will rather create the packaged version of audiobooks. 15:04:14 Wendy: which package system, which metadata, these are the questions. 15:04:31 ... they might have requirements that we didn't see until now. 15:04:49 ...after 5 months, we've gone far and it's cool. 15:05:27 Ivan: who will do the fist editing? related to duration etc. 15:05:33 marisa has joined #pwg 15:06:31 Hadrien: if the package format is for audiobooks, we may choose a specific extension and medi-type. 15:06:57 Garth: I think we should not use the token "epub4" at least for the moment. 15:07:31 Leonard: why not .pwp? 15:08:47 Ivan: then we would have different flavor for comics etc. Is it good? 15:09:43 George: if we go to audiobook people without talking about packaging, they won't have a clue. 15:11:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:11:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan 15:11:56 zakim, bye 15:11:56 rrsagent, bye 15:11:56 I see no action items 15:11:56 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Leonard, josh, Garth, ivan, Ralph, Avneesh, wendyreid, clapierre, gpellegrino, Bobbytung, wolfgang, George, dauwhe, karen, 15:11:56 Zakim has left #pwg 15:11:59 ... toshiakikoike, romain, duga, laudrain, JunGamo, JuanCorona, tzviya, marisa, Hadrien, Rachel, jeff, bigbluehat, DanieWeck, DanielWeck, Lloyd, Rasmussen