06:39:49 RRSAgent has joined #tt 06:39:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-tt-irc 06:39:51 RRSAgent, make logs public 06:39:51 Zakim has joined #tt 06:39:53 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 06:39:53 Date: 22 October 2018 06:40:01 log: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-tt-irc 06:42:27 Present: Glenn, Nigel, Andreas 06:42:29 Chair: Nigel 06:42:32 scribe: nigel 06:42:39 Topic: Agenda bash 06:43:14 glenn has joined #tt 06:44:08 Nigel: Looking at our agenda: 06:44:25 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2018 TTWG TPAC Agenda page 06:44:41 Nigel: I don't think we will have a joint meeting with CSS WG 06:45:17 Andreas: Tomorrow I'd like to discuss closer alignment with CSS 06:45:28 Glenn: I'd like to consider TTML2 2nd Ed requirements 06:46:10 Nigel: We have an agenda topic for that tomorrow - I have a use case to bring also. 06:46:56 Andreas: For the agenda, I don't think we need anything for TTML <--> WebVTT mapping. 06:47:05 Nigel: Yes, we took that off the agenda already. 06:47:53 Nigel: Glenn asked to discuss Karaoke. 06:48:05 Glenn: I don't have anything prepared for that, so we can scratch that off the agenda 06:48:10 .. or cover it very quickly. 06:48:33 Andreas: There will be topics relative to the TTWG that will come up during the M&E IG, 06:48:42 .. like 360º VR and AR. 06:49:03 .. I have to be at the AC tomorrow from 3 so I will not be able to join the future requirements 06:49:05 .. session. 06:49:25 .. Can we move the future requirements to after lunch and then audio profiles later? 06:49:26 Nigel: OK 06:55:43 Andreas: I need to go to the M&E IG now, see you there later! 06:56:18 Note: github.com is undergoing technical problems, see https://status.github.com/messages 06:56:30 Nigel: I will start to prepare some slides for our joint meeting with M&E IG now. 06:59:41 Present+ David_Singer, Pierre 07:05:09 Glenn: I think we need to cover WebVTT and the status 07:05:20 Pierre: We should discuss the TTML ballots also 07:07:13 .. If it helps we could walk people through the implementations 07:08:46 ericc has joined #tt 07:20:09 Nigel: When should we cover WebVTT? 07:20:22 David: My feeling now is that we won't get enough input to get to PR and Rec so we 07:20:32 .. should leave it there and propose that we drop the work and publish as a WG Note. 07:20:48 .. If nobody comes forward to say "I'm willing to do the work" then we should go with 07:20:50 .. that proposal. 07:21:05 Nigel: Do we need an agenda topic to take that any further? 07:23:04 David: I will check if anyone else from Apple is likely to attend today or tomorrow. 07:23:49 Nigel: The main body of our meeting is tomorrow - I have prepared some material for 07:24:10 .. the discussion on live subtitle topic. 07:24:22 Pierre: If the group decides to tackle this, the first step should be for the WG to accept 07:24:30 .. the system model, as the basis for the work. 07:24:31 Nigel: +1 07:25:08 Pierre: I think there's real confusion about the production process vs the "broadcast encoder" 07:25:24 .. for want of a better term. Once it hits ISOBMFF, what happens, for example? Does 07:25:35 .. anything special have to happen after the emission encoder or is it really upstream. 07:25:51 .. Even if we could publish a Note and tell people to look for it before asking questions 07:25:55 .. that would be helpful. 07:26:26 Nigel: I feel I will be able to answer that question! 07:34:46 David: On the WebVTT proposal, I will take an action to send a note to the mailing list 07:35:43 .. explaining the proposal. If we get no response we should take silence as assent. 07:49:41 Topic: M&E IG joint meeting preparation 07:49:45 Nigel: [bashes presentation deck for joint M&E IG] 07:51:28 Pierre: For future requirements for TTML, it would be useful to think about the language 07:51:43 .. in the core about style attributes, and allowing for additional modules. 07:52:02 Glenn: If we have modules that try to apply diffs to the core, that becomes messy. 07:52:14 Pierre: Maybe we would choose not to support that, but to support plugins for example 07:52:27 .. new style attributes that participate in the style resolution algorithm. 07:54:52 Glenn: I don't know if anyone wants to discuss 3D and adding a z-value dimension to 07:54:55 .. text positioning. 07:55:57 Glenn: I'm having a conversation about future requirements concerning a DOM API 07:56:16 .. for TTML, from an organisation interested in translation and localisation. 07:56:32 .. It would be to support Javascript processing of TTML for example. 07:56:46 .. Perhaps that's the conceptual model that the organisation I'm talking to has in mind. 08:05:20 Nigel: I've uploaded that to https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face-to-face_meeting_during_TPAC_2018#14:45_-_15:30_Timed_Text_Working_Group_joint_meeting 08:09:32 Topic: TTML Profile Registry issues 08:09:41 Nigel: Given that GitHub is down, this may not work too well... 08:09:58 .. I can see we have some new issues. 08:10:46 Glenn: Nigel had a question about #52 08:11:08 .. It's a portmanteau issue where the details will be in the Pull Request 08:11:21 Nigel: Please don't do that - you're asserting there's something wrong with the text 08:11:43 .. and planning to go ahead with a pull request before getting any discussion that 08:11:58 .. concurs with your review. Be prepared to get push back from the WG on that. 08:12:02 Pierre: But what is wrong with the text? 08:12:18 Glenn: For example Respec complains about a normative reference in a non-normative section. 08:12:23 .. Another is inconsistent capitalisation. 08:12:29 Pierre: OK, editorial things. 08:12:37 Glenn: I'll throw them in the summary to help with review. 08:12:44 Pierre: Are there any non-editorial issues? 08:12:59 Glenn: If there are then I will open a separate issue for them. 08:13:12 .. There's also some language in the prologue to the media registration part that talks 08:13:26 .. about plans for sending to IANA but we have already done that so it no longer applies. 08:13:34 .. It can either be removed or truncated. 08:13:44 .. The biggest change I'm going to propose is changing §4.2 to informative. I'm not sure 08:13:55 .. how it got in there, I wasn't paying attention apparently. It's quite problematic. 08:14:04 .. It purports to describe how to resolve the profile of a document. 08:14:14 Pierre: That was before TTML2 08:14:20 .. We should just fix it. 08:15:28 Glenn: I'm willing to keep it in as an informative section. 08:15:41 Nigel: It precedes TTML2 and the referenced specifications describe their own ways of 08:15:56 .. identifying the document instance's profile. In that sense it is informative because it's 08:16:01 .. a gathering of other information. 08:16:10 Pierre: One possibility is to remove §4.2 - that would be my preference. 08:16:16 Glenn: That would be my preference too. 08:16:31 Pierre: This is trying to be helpful, I understand. 08:16:55 David: It seems like a good answer to help people derive what profile a TTML document instance is. 08:16:58 .. It should be informative. 08:17:07 Glenn: The trouble is that it is not what TTML1 or TTML2 says. 08:17:16 David: It shouldn't be wrong! 08:17:32 Pierre: Right, it is possible to summarise, and should not be too much trouble, to say 08:17:43 .. where to look at in a TTML document instance to find what kind of thing it is. 08:17:56 Glenn: I don't even mind suggesting one possibility of using XPath. Maintaining this 08:18:02 .. data is not part of the registry. 08:18:06 Pierre: And its wrong! 08:18:11 Nigel: Is it? 08:18:24 Pierre: Yes, especially in TTML2 you have precedence rules about content profile, profile 08:18:27 .. attribute... 08:18:36 Glenn: profile override, outer context... 08:18:38 Pierre: yeah 08:19:16 Glenn: For example for tt1t it doesn't refer to what TTML1 or TTML2 does. 08:20:01 Nigel: The XPath thing doesn't say you must use XPath. 08:20:17 Pierre: IMSC does not use this technique for deciding if a document is IMSC compatible for instance. 08:20:30 Glenn: I don't know of any implementation that uses this technique. 08:20:44 Pierre: I would replace it with a more descriptive prose section. 08:21:01 David: It is useful to help find what kind of TTML document instance you have in front of you. 08:21:05 .. What the document claims to be. 08:21:22 Pierre: You can validate any document against any profile to see if it valid. 08:21:30 David: You need to know what a document claims conformance to. 08:21:44 Glenn: You're conflating content profile vs processor profile. 08:21:50 Nigel: I didn't hear that from David. 08:22:34 David: It seems like a reasonable question to ask what a document claims conformance to. 08:22:47 Glenn: It's out of place in the registry because the codecs profile does not refer to content profiles. 08:22:50 Nigel: That's true. 08:24:42 .. I would maybe rewrite it and put it in an appendix rather than have it in §4.2. 08:25:00 David: The codecs parameter is useful and you need to know how to specify it based on a document 08:25:15 Nigel: Subtle distinction: it's about knowledge of the document, not the document itself. 08:25:27 .. It may be that you know a doc is EBU-TT-D and IMSC but the document doesn't make 08:25:40 .. any claim internally. You can set codecs based on that. 08:25:53 Glenn: You also may know you don't need full processor support for every feature. 08:26:38 .. By the way the document doesn't set a precedence order for profile vs codecs 08:26:43 David: Why is it called codecs? 08:26:48 Pierre: So it can be used in MP4 08:26:55 David: You can copy the codecs value across? 08:26:58 Pierre: Yes 08:27:31 github outage incident report: https://blog.github.com/2018-10-21-october21-incident-report/ 08:27:38 Nigel: This is what goes after stpp. 08:27:52 David: It's the sub-parameter for the codecs? Got it. 08:28:22 rrsagent, make minutes 08:28:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-tt-minutes.html nigel 08:28:35 Glenn: My action is I plan to make a PR for this based on the input I've heard today. 08:28:46 .. Instead of removing it entirely I'll take the approach that Pierre suggests, to try to 08:28:54 .. summarise it, and add a statement that it's a non-normative section. 08:29:03 Nigel: I would consider moving it to an appendix too. 08:29:14 Glenn: That would be my preference too. I may leave behind a pointer. 08:29:18 Nigel: I don't think that's needed. 08:31:42 Nigel: It would be useful to merge #43 before you do a pull for #53 Glenn 08:31:57 Glenn: I agree, please can we merge them soon? 08:32:28 Nigel: Any objections to merging the open pull requests? 08:32:41 Glenn: We will probably end up tweaking the result of that to deal with other issues. 08:32:50 Nigel: I'm not hearing any objections. 08:33:09 .. Please note Mike is the editor here and wants to continue with that. 08:33:20 Pierre: Just create a pull request and Mike can be in charge of merging it. 08:33:44 Nigel: Will you do the pull to add TTML2 profiles Glenn? 08:33:57 Glenn: Yes, and for #38 (Content Profiles vs Processor Profiles) too. 08:35:08 ericc has joined #tt 08:35:24 Nigel: That's all on this topic. I propose we take a break and then join the M&E IG for 08:35:27 .. the rest of the day. 08:35:32 Glenn: I'm going to join that later. 08:35:38 Nigel: Okay! 08:35:56 Topic: Break, then Media and Entertainment IG. 08:36:00 rrsagent, make minutes 08:36:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-tt-minutes.html nigel 09:08:43 nigel has joined #tt 09:09:06 nigel has joined #tt 09:21:25 Zakim has left #tt 09:39:27 nigel has joined #tt 09:59:35 ericc has joined #tt 12:01:14 ericc has joined #tt 12:06:17 nigel has joined #tt 13:03:56 ericc has joined #tt 14:09:37 ericc has joined #tt 14:29:31 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 14:29:35 rrsagent, make minutes 14:29:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:38:45 cyril has joined #tt