07:04:20 RRSAgent has joined #dap 07:04:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-irc 07:04:45 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:04:54 Meeting: Devices and Sensors WG TPAC F2F - Day 1/2 07:05:01 Chair: Anssi_Kostiainen 07:05:06 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda 07:05:12 rakuco has joined #dap 07:05:20 xfq has joined #dap 07:05:32 RRSAgent, make minutes public 07:05:32 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', xfq. Try /msg RRSAgent help 07:05:35 paul has joined #dap 07:05:42 RRSAgent, make log public 07:05:47 RRSAgent, make minuts 07:05:47 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', xfq. Try /msg RRSAgent help 07:05:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:05:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html xfq 07:06:54 dagulbak75 has joined #dap 07:07:17 cwilso has joined #dap 07:07:38 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen, Fuqiao_Xue, Udana_Bandara, Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa, Lars_Knudsen, Ningxin_Hu, Bryan_Bernhart, Mounir_Lamouri, Ian_Clelland 07:08:08 larsgk has joined #dap 07:09:43 scribenick: xfq 07:10:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 07:10:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 07:10:15 chair: Anssi_Kostiainen 07:10:23 dape has joined #dap 07:11:49 anssik: Welcome everyone! 07:12:21 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda 07:12:29 Bryan has joined #dap 07:13:17 hira has joined #dap 07:13:18 Present+ ThomasTheDane 07:13:45 Topic: Welcome and introductions 07:14:31 anssik: Hopefully you have tiem to discover the city before the meeting begins 07:14:31 ... now it's the time to forcus the time for important stuff 07:14:44 s/tiem/time/ 07:14:52 s/forcus/focus/ 07:15:05 present+ ChrisWilson 07:15:08 ... I'm Anssi Kostiainen from Intel 07:15:15 ... the co-chair of the WG 07:15:24 ... the other co-chair, Reilly, will join tomorrow 07:16:38 ... I'll help with the logistics, letting you better focus on the technical stuff 07:16:58 Bryan has joined #dap 07:17:00 xfq: I'm Fuqiao from W3C, team contact fo the group 07:17:30 Ian: I'm Ian Clelland from Google 07:17:53 cwilso: Chris Wilson from Google 07:18:11 Mounir: Mounir Lamouri from Google 07:18:52 Lars: I'm Lars, Invited Expert of the group 07:19:04 Bryan: Bryan Bernhart from Intel 07:19:30 Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa: I'm Raphael Kubo da Costa from Intel 07:20:26 Tatsuhiko_Hirabayashi: I'm Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi 07:20:50 Udana_Bandara: I'm Udana Bandara from @1 07:21:15 s/I'm Lars/Lars Knudsen/ 07:21:26 s/Lars Knudsen/I'm Lars Knudsen/ 07:21:37 Paul: I'm Paul, from Korea 07:22:18 Junghun: I'm interested Junghun, interested in autonomous driving cars 07:23:15 Daniel_Peintner: @2 07:23:40 ThomasTheDane: I'm Thomas Dane from Google 07:24:10 Topic: Charter and roadmap 07:24:12 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/06/devices-sensors-wg-charter.html Charter 07:25:21 anssik: Nowadays all the scope of the WG is related to the browsers 07:25:40 ... let's go to the Deliverables directly 07:25:54 ... we have Battery Status API, Wake Lock API, etc. 07:26:53 ... for specs in Candidate Recommendation, we're waiting another implementation, since W3C process requires two independent implementations for a spec to get to REC 07:27:05 s/waiting another/waiting for another/ 07:27:40 ... if you scroll down a bit more, we just added Geolocation Sensor to the deliverables of our working group 07:28:17 ... later today we'll discuss the Geolocation Sensor spec 07:29:15 ... if you scroll down, we need to specify a roadmap of the group (Timeline) 07:29:49 ... it's not fixed tho, it is our "wishlist" 07:30:39 ... we follow a test as you commit approach 07:30:48 https://github.com/w3c/testing-how-to/#test-as-you-commit 07:32:07 ... Network Information API was in DAS (or DAP), but was moved to WICG afterwards 07:32:32 ... it's implemented in Chrome currently, and we're waiting for another impl 07:34:49 Lars: @@ 07:35:15 -> https://www.w3.org/das/roadmap Roadmap 07:36:09 anssik: this is the roadmap of the group 07:36:09 ... it's better to refer than the charter since it's dynamic 07:36:09 ... w3.org/das is our homepage 07:36:33 Mounir_Lamouri: most of the specs are in CR 07:36:44 ... how many of them are implemented by Chrome 07:36:58 anssik: most (if not all) of them 07:37:51 ... please talk to your friends in other orgs, like Mozilla/Microsoft/Apple 07:38:03 s/ other orgs/ other orgs to implement the specs/ 07:38:16 Topic: Agenda bashing 07:38:24 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda Agenda 07:38:40 anssik: Do you have any modification to the agenda? 07:40:15 Lars: one of the approaches I'm interested about discovery is in Web NFC 07:40:23 ... we can discuss that jointly with WoT people 07:42:32 anssik: Generic Sensor Level 1 is finished (in one browser), we will discuss Level 2 issues 07:43:07 ... in the last part of Tuesday, we have DeviceOrientation Event 07:43:32 ... it's an old spec, but we still have a few issues, to make it match implementations better 07:43:47 ... then we can call this spec done 07:44:30 Topic: Battery Status API 07:45:17 anssik: There hasn't been much happening in this spec for some time 07:45:19 -> https://w3c.github.io/battery/ Battery Status API 07:45:30 ... Mozilla had concerns regarding fingerprinting 07:46:08 ... security researchers found our we can use the API as supercookies 07:46:20 s/found our /found out / 07:46:48 ... we had discussion with Mozilla, then Feature Policy came out 07:47:20 https://github.com/w3c/battery/pull/13 07:47:52 https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fbattery%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fbattery%2Fissue-10-secure-top-level%2Findex.html 07:48:09 ... I'm drop the link to the diff 07:48:47 ... adding the Feature Policy integration section 07:49:29 ... in ยง 5. The Navigator interface, with this proposal, only the top-level origin can access the battery status 07:49:49 ... if you want other origins to access it, you need to use Feature Policy 07:49:59 Ian: I reviewed the PR 07:50:57 anssik: Mounir/Ian, I think you have some use counters about this? 07:52:04 anssik: it would be great if someone could check it 07:52:37 anssik: if users embed YouTube as an iframe, there might be problems 07:52:39 iclelland has joined #dap 07:53:22 RzR has joined #dap 07:53:59 iclellan1 has joined #dap 07:54:22 Mounir: maybe a large portion of the deprecated usage is fingerprinting 07:56:06 Lars: what YouTube need is if processing power is available 07:56:07 Mounir: that's not the case, it's more like A/B testing 07:57:29 anssik: anyway we need to be good citizens and mitigate the concerns 07:58:10 iclelland has joined #dap 07:58:59 iclellan1 has joined #dap 07:59:55 Mounir: @@ 07:59:56 ... changing codec might be a valid use case for the API 08:03:41 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people 08:03:46 RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people 08:03:57 s/PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people// 08:04:00 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 08:04:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 08:05:26 -> https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Av2 Battery Status API v2 issues 08:05:53 Udana has joined #dap 08:06:21 https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/9 08:06:39 anssik: This issue about power saving mode 08:07:02 ... does this sound like a useful thing to do? any concern? 08:07:58 Lars: I think it makes most sense to integrate it with the service worker 08:08:26 -> https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/4 Expose getBattery to ServiceWorker #4 08:08:42 anssik: we have this long-time issue about background battery 08:09:19 ... are you aware of this kind of request from web developers? Any valid use cases? 08:09:26 s/any concern?/Any concern? 08:10:30 ... do we expose this to other device-ish APIs currently? 08:11:47 ... in the workers case, we don't have this issue, since if the tab closes, the worker goes away 08:13:12 ... let's break for now and come back in 10:45 08:14:19 [Break] 08:16:10 iclelland has joined #dap 08:41:34 zolkis has joined #dap 08:43:52 xfq has joined #dap 08:58:59 Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen 08:59:26 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 08:59:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 09:02:56 QingAn has joined #dap 09:04:07 scribenick: anssik 09:04:15 dagulbak75 has joined #dap 09:04:36 Present+ Glenn_Atkinson, Harjot_Singh 09:05:02 larsgk has joined #dap 09:05:30 TOPIC: Wake Lock API 09:05:36 kenneth has joined #dap 09:07:28 -> https://github.com/w3c/wake-lock/issues/128 What if WakeLockRequest is garbage collected? 09:08:31 iclelland has joined #dap 09:09:21 mounir: there's a spec-compliant implementation in Chrome 09:11:12 https://w3c.github.io/sensors/#sensor-garbage-collection 09:14:36 proposed solution: https://github.com/w3c/wake-lock/issues/128#issuecomment-412148397 09:16:08 https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/ 09:17:14 rakuco: problem similar to Generic Sensor, but in Wake Lock the effect is visible 09:18:18 kenneth: please open an issue against TAG design-principles for the generic CG issue 09:18:36 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles 09:20:14 https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#managing-wake-locks 09:22:15 In section 6, there is a note that wake lock is applicable if sufficient battery is available - but no mention of bailing out if depleting battery during wake lock 09:22:18 https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-the-wake-lock-is-applicable 09:23:04 hira has joined #dap 09:25:55 anssik: it appears "The wake lock is applicable" https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-the-wake-lock-is-applicable is not referred to from the requesting the wake lock algorithm https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-requesting-the-wake-lock 09:27:08 ... that seems to be a spec bug, should open an issue for that 09:29:00 bryan: system level setting for low battery not usually exposed by platform APIs 09:32:37 kenneth: if the wake lock gets released due to device going into power saving mode, need to get notified 09:36:47 TAG design-principle issue filed on behalf of kenneth: https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues/102 09:37:56 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable 09:38:27 ... (the reason for not being applicable could be low battery, or any other implementation-specific reason) 09:38:44 RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles 09:38:50 RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable 09:40:09 anssik: is the polyfill using 1x1 autoplay video still working? 09:41:12 mounir: yes it is 09:42:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 09:42:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 09:50:53 iclelland has joined #dap 09:55:19 jillian_munson has joined #dap 10:03:22 [Lunch] 11:21:51 Zakim has left #dap 11:36:42 xfq has joined #dap 12:08:21 iclelland has joined #dap 12:10:29 anssik has joined #dap 12:10:36 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 12:10:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 12:11:00 TOPIC: Geolocation Sensor 12:11:21 [tom presenting slides on Geolocation Sensor] 12:11:56 rakuco has joined #dap 12:13:22 hira has joined #dap 12:14:05 -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/geolocation-sensor/use-cases/use-cases.html Geolocation Sensor API Use Cases 12:15:14 [tom walking us through the use cases document] 12:20:51 xfq has joined #dap 12:22:29 McCool: question about floorLevel proposal, how do I find out which floor I am on? 12:24:40 kenneth: prefer giving more access to the web developer than the old Geolocation API 12:26:26 QingAn has joined #dap 12:26:27 xfq has joined #dap 12:29:38 bryan: in Edge implementation, we look for the epsilon value to figure out what constitutes a significant change 12:29:49 ... this is to save battery life 12:31:42 tom: question on how to signal that the device cannot fulfill the accuracy and/or latency requirements 12:32:26 ... think the developer should be informed if the requirements cannot be satisfied 12:53:46 ThomasTheDane: we in Chrome think being installed is one possible signal to consider whether a permission should be persistent, e.g. reopen PWA if granted permission previously, no permission grant 12:54:26 https://w3c.github.io/permissions/#implicit-signals 12:55:44 tomayac has joined #dap 13:03:41 guido: in sports tracker apps you do not need an UI at all necessarily 13:07:10 tom: one option is to expire permissions after some predefined time 13:10:24 iclelland has joined #dap 13:11:06 Alex: iOS does provide a banner to revoke permission if an app is using e.g. geolocation in the background 13:14:16 ... this banner appears after the app is still using the geolocation after it has been backgrounded 13:25:50 alex: one option would be to show the user a (web) notification if within a geofence, and only expose the coordinates to the web app if the user gives consent via the notification prompt 13:37:04 guido: I think moving this spec forward it is important to have good use cases that cannot be done with the old API 13:39:58 anssik: the group agrees, and that's why the group started with soliciting new use cases 13:40:24 ... and then do a decision whether to advance with the solution i.e. the API 13:41:48 alex: maybe it makes sense to make distinction between allowing a session vs. background geolocation access 13:42:29 Bryan has joined #dap 13:42:45 xfq has joined #dap 13:46:53 s/alex/alex_turner/ 13:48:49 iclelland has joined #dap 13:50:17 Present+ Alex_Turner 14:01:49 iclelland has joined #dap 14:13:23 -> https://github.com/immersive-web/geo-alignment Geo-alignment 14:16:59 RESOLUTION: editors continue to refine the use cases document, derive key requirements 14:17:11 TOPIC: Web NFC 14:18:13 anssik: the Web NFC API is potential future work for the DAS WG, not in scope currently 14:18:42 kenneth: spec implemented in Chrome, web developers asking for it, used in production even 14:19:20 ... API has been refined over the last year or so, few changes can be made easily to modernize the API 14:19:39 ... some IDL issues to fix, otherwise basically done what comes to r/w tags 14:20:29 ... p2p not implemented due to platform limitations on Android, should we remove it from the spec? 14:21:39 -> https://w3c.github.io/web-nfc/ Web NFC API 14:22:14 tom: what are the p2p use cases? 14:22:42 kenneth: not that many use cases for p2p, any data exchange using NFC from device to device 14:26:22 tomayac has joined #dap 14:26:26 larsgk has joined #dap 14:26:50 RESOLUTION: remove unimplemented p2p prose from the specification, make it a v2 feature 14:27:50 -> https://github.com/w3c/web-nfc/issues Web NFC open issues 14:28:23 -> https://github.com/w3c/web-nfc/issues/160 Create error message when using proprietary tags #160 14:31:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:31:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 14:31:51 hira has joined #dap 14:33:20 [reviewing the list of open issues on the screen] 14:33:32 anssik: any other issues that'd benefit from group review 14:33:37 [hearing none] 14:35:43 Alex_Russell: is there a path to an Origin Trial? 14:35:50 Present+ Alex_Russell 14:37:14 Alex_Russell: talk to ThomasTheDane regarding the Origin Trial 14:48:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:48:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 14:48:48 [end Day 1] 14:49:22 anssik: thank you everyone, Day 2 starts 9:00 14:49:25 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 14:49:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik 15:11:38 iclelland has joined #dap