IRC log of dap on 2018-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Devices and Sensors WG TPAC F2F - Day 1/2
07:05:01 [anssik]
Chair: Anssi_Kostiainen
07:05:06 [anssik]
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RRSAgent, make minutes public
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RRSAgent, make minuts
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I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', xfq. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate xfq
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Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen, Fuqiao_Xue, Udana_Bandara, Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa, Lars_Knudsen, Ningxin_Hu, Bryan_Bernhart, Mounir_Lamouri, Ian_Clelland
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scribenick: xfq
07:10:12 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate anssik
07:10:15 [xfq]
chair: Anssi_Kostiainen
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07:11:49 [xfq]
anssik: Welcome everyone!
07:12:21 [xfq]
07:12:29 [Bryan]
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Present+ ThomasTheDane
07:13:45 [xfq]
Topic: Welcome and introductions
07:14:31 [xfq]
anssik: Hopefully you have tiem to discover the city before the meeting begins
07:14:31 [xfq]
... now it's the time to forcus the time for important stuff
07:14:44 [xfq]
07:14:52 [xfq]
07:15:05 [cwilso]
present+ ChrisWilson
07:15:08 [xfq]
... I'm Anssi Kostiainen from Intel
07:15:15 [xfq]
... the co-chair of the WG
07:15:24 [xfq]
... the other co-chair, Reilly, will join tomorrow
07:16:38 [xfq]
... I'll help with the logistics, letting you better focus on the technical stuff
07:16:58 [Bryan]
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07:17:00 [xfq]
xfq: I'm Fuqiao from W3C, team contact fo the group
07:17:30 [xfq]
Ian: I'm Ian Clelland from Google
07:17:53 [xfq]
cwilso: Chris Wilson from Google
07:18:11 [xfq]
Mounir: Mounir Lamouri from Google
07:18:52 [xfq]
Lars: I'm Lars, Invited Expert of the group
07:19:04 [xfq]
Bryan: Bryan Bernhart from Intel
07:19:30 [xfq]
Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa: I'm Raphael Kubo da Costa from Intel
07:20:26 [xfq]
Tatsuhiko_Hirabayashi: I'm Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi
07:20:50 [xfq]
Udana_Bandara: I'm Udana Bandara from @1
07:21:15 [xfq]
s/I'm Lars/Lars Knudsen/
07:21:26 [xfq]
s/Lars Knudsen/I'm Lars Knudsen/
07:21:37 [xfq]
Paul: I'm Paul, from Korea
07:22:18 [xfq]
Junghun: I'm interested Junghun, interested in autonomous driving cars
07:23:15 [xfq]
Daniel_Peintner: @2
07:23:40 [xfq]
ThomasTheDane: I'm Thomas Dane from Google
07:24:10 [xfq]
Topic: Charter and roadmap
07:24:12 [anssik]
-> Charter
07:25:21 [xfq]
anssik: Nowadays all the scope of the WG is related to the browsers
07:25:40 [xfq]
... let's go to the Deliverables directly
07:25:54 [xfq]
... we have Battery Status API, Wake Lock API, etc.
07:26:53 [xfq]
... for specs in Candidate Recommendation, we're waiting another implementation, since W3C process requires two independent implementations for a spec to get to REC
07:27:05 [xfq]
s/waiting another/waiting for another/
07:27:40 [xfq]
... if you scroll down a bit more, we just added Geolocation Sensor to the deliverables of our working group
07:28:17 [xfq]
... later today we'll discuss the Geolocation Sensor spec
07:29:15 [xfq]
... if you scroll down, we need to specify a roadmap of the group (Timeline)
07:29:49 [xfq]
... it's not fixed tho, it is our "wishlist"
07:30:39 [xfq]
... we follow a test as you commit approach
07:30:48 [xfq]
07:32:07 [xfq]
... Network Information API was in DAS (or DAP), but was moved to WICG afterwards
07:32:32 [xfq]
... it's implemented in Chrome currently, and we're waiting for another impl
07:34:49 [xfq]
Lars: @@
07:35:15 [anssik]
-> Roadmap
07:36:09 [xfq]
anssik: this is the roadmap of the group
07:36:09 [xfq]
... it's better to refer than the charter since it's dynamic
07:36:09 [xfq]
... is our homepage
07:36:33 [xfq]
Mounir_Lamouri: most of the specs are in CR
07:36:44 [xfq]
... how many of them are implemented by Chrome
07:36:58 [xfq]
anssik: most (if not all) of them
07:37:51 [xfq]
... please talk to your friends in other orgs, like Mozilla/Microsoft/Apple
07:38:03 [xfq]
s/ other orgs/ other orgs to implement the specs/
07:38:16 [xfq]
Topic: Agenda bashing
07:38:24 [anssik]
-> Agenda
07:38:40 [xfq]
anssik: Do you have any modification to the agenda?
07:40:15 [xfq]
Lars: one of the approaches I'm interested about discovery is in Web NFC
07:40:23 [xfq]
... we can discuss that jointly with WoT people
07:42:32 [xfq]
anssik: Generic Sensor Level 1 is finished (in one browser), we will discuss Level 2 issues
07:43:07 [xfq]
... in the last part of Tuesday, we have DeviceOrientation Event
07:43:32 [xfq]
... it's an old spec, but we still have a few issues, to make it match implementations better
07:43:47 [xfq]
... then we can call this spec done
07:44:30 [xfq]
Topic: Battery Status API
07:45:17 [xfq]
anssik: There hasn't been much happening in this spec for some time
07:45:19 [anssik]
-> Battery Status API
07:45:30 [xfq]
... Mozilla had concerns regarding fingerprinting
07:46:08 [xfq]
... security researchers found our we can use the API as supercookies
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s/found our /found out /
07:46:48 [xfq]
... we had discussion with Mozilla, then Feature Policy came out
07:47:20 [anssik]
07:47:52 [anssik]
07:48:09 [xfq]
... I'm drop the link to the diff
07:48:47 [xfq]
... adding the Feature Policy integration section
07:49:29 [xfq]
... in ยง 5. The Navigator interface, with this proposal, only the top-level origin can access the battery status
07:49:49 [xfq]
... if you want other origins to access it, you need to use Feature Policy
07:49:59 [xfq]
Ian: I reviewed the PR
07:50:57 [xfq]
anssik: Mounir/Ian, I think you have some use counters about this?
07:52:04 [xfq]
anssik: it would be great if someone could check it
07:52:37 [xfq]
anssik: if users embed YouTube as an iframe, there might be problems
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Mounir: maybe a large portion of the deprecated usage is fingerprinting
07:56:06 [xfq]
Lars: what YouTube need is if processing power is available
07:56:07 [xfq]
Mounir: that's not the case, it's more like A/B testing
07:57:29 [xfq]
anssik: anyway we need to be good citizens and mitigate the concerns
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07:59:55 [xfq]
Mounir: @@
07:59:56 [xfq]
... changing codec might be a valid use case for the API
08:03:41 [xfq]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people
08:03:46 [anssik]
RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people
08:03:57 [xfq]
s/PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people//
08:04:00 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:04:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
08:05:26 [anssik]
-> Battery Status API v2 issues
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08:06:39 [xfq]
anssik: This issue about power saving mode
08:07:02 [xfq]
... does this sound like a useful thing to do? any concern?
08:07:58 [xfq]
Lars: I think it makes most sense to integrate it with the service worker
08:08:26 [anssik]
-> Expose getBattery to ServiceWorker #4
08:08:42 [xfq]
anssik: we have this long-time issue about background battery
08:09:19 [xfq]
... are you aware of this kind of request from web developers? Any valid use cases?
08:09:26 [xfq]
s/any concern?/Any concern?
08:10:30 [xfq]
... do we expose this to other device-ish APIs currently?
08:11:47 [xfq]
... in the workers case, we don't have this issue, since if the tab closes, the worker goes away
08:13:12 [xfq]
... let's break for now and come back in 10:45
08:14:19 [xfq]
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08:58:59 [anssik]
Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
08:59:26 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:59:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
09:02:56 [QingAn]
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scribenick: anssik
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Present+ Glenn_Atkinson, Harjot_Singh
09:05:02 [larsgk]
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09:05:30 [anssik]
TOPIC: Wake Lock API
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-> What if WakeLockRequest is garbage collected?
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09:09:21 [anssik]
mounir: there's a spec-compliant implementation in Chrome
09:11:12 [anssik]
09:14:36 [mounir]
proposed solution:
09:16:08 [kenneth]
09:17:14 [anssik]
rakuco: problem similar to Generic Sensor, but in Wake Lock the effect is visible
09:18:18 [anssik]
kenneth: please open an issue against TAG design-principles for the generic CG issue
09:18:36 [anssik]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles
09:20:14 [anssik]
09:22:15 [larsgk]
In section 6, there is a note that wake lock is applicable if sufficient battery is available - but no mention of bailing out if depleting battery during wake lock
09:22:18 [anssik]
09:23:04 [hira]
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09:25:55 [anssik]
anssik: it appears "The wake lock is applicable" is not referred to from the requesting the wake lock algorithm
09:27:08 [anssik]
... that seems to be a spec bug, should open an issue for that
09:29:00 [anssik]
bryan: system level setting for low battery not usually exposed by platform APIs
09:32:37 [anssik]
kenneth: if the wake lock gets released due to device going into power saving mode, need to get notified
09:36:47 [rakuco]
TAG design-principle issue filed on behalf of kenneth:
09:37:56 [anssik]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable
09:38:27 [anssik]
... (the reason for not being applicable could be low battery, or any other implementation-specific reason)
09:38:44 [anssik]
RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles
09:38:50 [anssik]
RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable
09:40:09 [anssik]
anssik: is the polyfill using 1x1 autoplay video still working?
09:41:12 [anssik]
mounir: yes it is
09:42:34 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
09:42:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
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RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
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I have made the request to generate anssik
12:11:00 [anssik]
TOPIC: Geolocation Sensor
12:11:21 [anssik]
[tom presenting slides on Geolocation Sensor]
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-> Geolocation Sensor API Use Cases
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[tom walking us through the use cases document]
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12:22:29 [anssik]
McCool: question about floorLevel proposal, how do I find out which floor I am on?
12:24:40 [anssik]
kenneth: prefer giving more access to the web developer than the old Geolocation API
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12:29:38 [anssik]
bryan: in Edge implementation, we look for the epsilon value to figure out what constitutes a significant change
12:29:49 [anssik]
... this is to save battery life
12:31:42 [anssik]
tom: question on how to signal that the device cannot fulfill the accuracy and/or latency requirements
12:32:26 [anssik]
... think the developer should be informed if the requirements cannot be satisfied
12:53:46 [anssik]
ThomasTheDane: we in Chrome think being installed is one possible signal to consider whether a permission should be persistent, e.g. reopen PWA if granted permission previously, no permission grant
12:54:26 [anssik]
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13:03:41 [anssik]
guido: in sports tracker apps you do not need an UI at all necessarily
13:07:10 [anssik]
tom: one option is to expire permissions after some predefined time
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13:11:06 [anssik]
Alex: iOS does provide a banner to revoke permission if an app is using e.g. geolocation in the background
13:14:16 [anssik]
... this banner appears after the app is still using the geolocation after it has been backgrounded
13:25:50 [anssik]
alex: one option would be to show the user a (web) notification if within a geofence, and only expose the coordinates to the web app if the user gives consent via the notification prompt
13:37:04 [anssik]
guido: I think moving this spec forward it is important to have good use cases that cannot be done with the old API
13:39:58 [anssik]
anssik: the group agrees, and that's why the group started with soliciting new use cases
13:40:24 [anssik]
... and then do a decision whether to advance with the solution i.e. the API
13:41:48 [anssik]
alex: maybe it makes sense to make distinction between allowing a session vs. background geolocation access
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Present+ Alex_Turner
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14:13:23 [anssik]
-> Geo-alignment
14:16:59 [anssik]
RESOLUTION: editors continue to refine the use cases document, derive key requirements
14:17:11 [anssik]
14:18:13 [anssik]
anssik: the Web NFC API is potential future work for the DAS WG, not in scope currently
14:18:42 [anssik]
kenneth: spec implemented in Chrome, web developers asking for it, used in production even
14:19:20 [anssik]
... API has been refined over the last year or so, few changes can be made easily to modernize the API
14:19:39 [anssik]
... some IDL issues to fix, otherwise basically done what comes to r/w tags
14:20:29 [anssik]
... p2p not implemented due to platform limitations on Android, should we remove it from the spec?
14:21:39 [anssik]
-> Web NFC API
14:22:14 [anssik]
tom: what are the p2p use cases?
14:22:42 [anssik]
kenneth: not that many use cases for p2p, any data exchange using NFC from device to device
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14:26:26 [larsgk]
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14:26:50 [anssik]
RESOLUTION: remove unimplemented p2p prose from the specification, make it a v2 feature
14:27:50 [anssik]
-> Web NFC open issues
14:28:23 [anssik]
-> Create error message when using proprietary tags #160
14:31:31 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
14:31:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
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14:33:20 [anssik]
[reviewing the list of open issues on the screen]
14:33:32 [anssik]
anssik: any other issues that'd benefit from group review
14:33:37 [anssik]
[hearing none]
14:35:43 [anssik]
Alex_Russell: is there a path to an Origin Trial?
14:35:50 [anssik]
Present+ Alex_Russell
14:37:14 [anssik]
Alex_Russell: talk to ThomasTheDane regarding the Origin Trial
14:48:31 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
14:48:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
14:48:48 [anssik]
[end Day 1]
14:49:22 [anssik]
anssik: thank you everyone, Day 2 starts 9:00
14:49:25 [anssik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
14:49:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anssik
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