IRC log of dap on 2018-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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Meeting: Devices and Sensors WG TPAC F2F - Day 1/2

07:05:01 [anssik]

Chair: Anssi_Kostiainen

07:05:06 [anssik]

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda

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07:05:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html xfq

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Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen, Fuqiao_Xue, Udana_Bandara, Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa, Lars_Knudsen, Ningxin_Hu, Bryan_Bernhart, Mounir_Lamouri, Ian_Clelland

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scribenick: xfq

07:10:12 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

07:10:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

07:10:15 [xfq]

chair: Anssi_Kostiainen

07:10:23 [dape]

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07:11:49 [xfq]

anssik: Welcome everyone!

07:12:21 [xfq]

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda

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07:13:18 [anssik]

Present+ ThomasTheDane

07:13:45 [xfq]

Topic: Welcome and introductions

07:14:31 [xfq]

anssik: Hopefully you have tiem to discover the city before the meeting begins

07:14:31 [xfq]

... now it's the time to forcus the time for important stuff

07:14:44 [xfq]

s/tiem/time/

07:14:52 [xfq]

s/forcus/focus/

07:15:05 [cwilso]

present+ ChrisWilson

07:15:08 [xfq]

... I'm Anssi Kostiainen from Intel

07:15:15 [xfq]

... the co-chair of the WG

07:15:24 [xfq]

... the other co-chair, Reilly, will join tomorrow

07:16:38 [xfq]

... I'll help with the logistics, letting you better focus on the technical stuff

07:16:58 [Bryan]

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07:17:00 [xfq]

xfq: I'm Fuqiao from W3C, team contact fo the group

07:17:30 [xfq]

Ian: I'm Ian Clelland from Google

07:17:53 [xfq]

cwilso: Chris Wilson from Google

07:18:11 [xfq]

Mounir: Mounir Lamouri from Google

07:18:52 [xfq]

Lars: I'm Lars, Invited Expert of the group

07:19:04 [xfq]

Bryan: Bryan Bernhart from Intel

07:19:30 [xfq]

Raphael_Kubo_da_Costa: I'm Raphael Kubo da Costa from Intel

07:20:26 [xfq]

Tatsuhiko_Hirabayashi: I'm Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi

07:20:50 [xfq]

Udana_Bandara: I'm Udana Bandara from @1

07:21:15 [xfq]

s/I'm Lars/Lars Knudsen/

07:21:26 [xfq]

s/Lars Knudsen/I'm Lars Knudsen/

07:21:37 [xfq]

Paul: I'm Paul, from Korea

07:22:18 [xfq]

Junghun: I'm interested Junghun, interested in autonomous driving cars

07:23:15 [xfq]

Daniel_Peintner: @2

07:23:40 [xfq]

ThomasTheDane: I'm Thomas Dane from Google

07:24:10 [xfq]

Topic: Charter and roadmap

07:24:12 [anssik]

-> https://www.w3.org/2018/06/devices-sensors-wg-charter.html Charter

07:25:21 [xfq]

anssik: Nowadays all the scope of the WG is related to the browsers

07:25:40 [xfq]

... let's go to the Deliverables directly

07:25:54 [xfq]

... we have Battery Status API, Wake Lock API, etc.

07:26:53 [xfq]

... for specs in Candidate Recommendation, we're waiting another implementation, since W3C process requires two independent implementations for a spec to get to REC

07:27:05 [xfq]

s/waiting another/waiting for another/

07:27:40 [xfq]

... if you scroll down a bit more, we just added Geolocation Sensor to the deliverables of our working group

07:28:17 [xfq]

... later today we'll discuss the Geolocation Sensor spec

07:29:15 [xfq]

... if you scroll down, we need to specify a roadmap of the group (Timeline)

07:29:49 [xfq]

... it's not fixed tho, it is our "wishlist"

07:30:39 [xfq]

... we follow a test as you commit approach

07:30:48 [xfq]

https://github.com/w3c/testing-how-to/#test-as-you-commit

07:32:07 [xfq]

... Network Information API was in DAS (or DAP), but was moved to WICG afterwards

07:32:32 [xfq]

... it's implemented in Chrome currently, and we're waiting for another impl

07:34:49 [xfq]

Lars: @@

07:35:15 [anssik]

-> https://www.w3.org/das/roadmap Roadmap

07:36:09 [xfq]

anssik: this is the roadmap of the group

07:36:09 [xfq]

... it's better to refer than the charter since it's dynamic

07:36:09 [xfq]

... w3.org/das is our homepage

07:36:33 [xfq]

Mounir_Lamouri: most of the specs are in CR

07:36:44 [xfq]

... how many of them are implemented by Chrome

07:36:58 [xfq]

anssik: most (if not all) of them

07:37:51 [xfq]

... please talk to your friends in other orgs, like Mozilla/Microsoft/Apple

07:38:03 [xfq]

s/ other orgs/ other orgs to implement the specs/

07:38:16 [xfq]

Topic: Agenda bashing

07:38:24 [anssik]

-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/DAS/Meetings/October_2018_F2F#Agenda Agenda

07:38:40 [xfq]

anssik: Do you have any modification to the agenda?

07:40:15 [xfq]

Lars: one of the approaches I'm interested about discovery is in Web NFC

07:40:23 [xfq]

... we can discuss that jointly with WoT people

07:42:32 [xfq]

anssik: Generic Sensor Level 1 is finished (in one browser), we will discuss Level 2 issues

07:43:07 [xfq]

... in the last part of Tuesday, we have DeviceOrientation Event

07:43:32 [xfq]

... it's an old spec, but we still have a few issues, to make it match implementations better

07:43:47 [xfq]

... then we can call this spec done

07:44:30 [xfq]

Topic: Battery Status API

07:45:17 [xfq]

anssik: There hasn't been much happening in this spec for some time

07:45:19 [anssik]

-> https://w3c.github.io/battery/ Battery Status API

07:45:30 [xfq]

... Mozilla had concerns regarding fingerprinting

07:46:08 [xfq]

... security researchers found our we can use the API as supercookies

07:46:20 [xfq]

s/found our /found out /

07:46:48 [xfq]

... we had discussion with Mozilla, then Feature Policy came out

07:47:20 [anssik]

https://github.com/w3c/battery/pull/13

07:47:52 [anssik]

https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fbattery%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fbattery%2Fissue-10-secure-top-level%2Findex.html

07:48:09 [xfq]

... I'm drop the link to the diff

07:48:47 [xfq]

... adding the Feature Policy integration section

07:49:29 [xfq]

... in § 5. The Navigator interface, with this proposal, only the top-level origin can access the battery status

07:49:49 [xfq]

... if you want other origins to access it, you need to use Feature Policy

07:49:59 [xfq]

Ian: I reviewed the PR

07:50:57 [xfq]

anssik: Mounir/Ian, I think you have some use counters about this?

07:52:04 [xfq]

anssik: it would be great if someone could check it

07:52:37 [xfq]

anssik: if users embed YouTube as an iframe, there might be problems

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Mounir: maybe a large portion of the deprecated usage is fingerprinting

07:56:06 [xfq]

Lars: what YouTube need is if processing power is available

07:56:07 [xfq]

Mounir: that's not the case, it's more like A/B testing

07:57:29 [xfq]

anssik: anyway we need to be good citizens and mitigate the concerns

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07:59:55 [xfq]

Mounir: @@

07:59:56 [xfq]

... changing codec might be a valid use case for the API

08:03:41 [xfq]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people

08:03:46 [anssik]

RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people

08:03:57 [xfq]

s/PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ian to add telemetry for Battery Status API in Chrome, then talk to YT people//

08:04:00 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

08:04:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

08:05:26 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Av2 Battery Status API v2 issues

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08:06:21 [xfq]

https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/9

08:06:39 [xfq]

anssik: This issue about power saving mode

08:07:02 [xfq]

... does this sound like a useful thing to do? any concern?

08:07:58 [xfq]

Lars: I think it makes most sense to integrate it with the service worker

08:08:26 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/4 Expose getBattery to ServiceWorker #4

08:08:42 [xfq]

anssik: we have this long-time issue about background battery

08:09:19 [xfq]

... are you aware of this kind of request from web developers? Any valid use cases?

08:09:26 [xfq]

s/any concern?/Any concern?

08:10:30 [xfq]

... do we expose this to other device-ish APIs currently?

08:11:47 [xfq]

... in the workers case, we don't have this issue, since if the tab closes, the worker goes away

08:13:12 [xfq]

... let's break for now and come back in 10:45

08:14:19 [xfq]

[Break]

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08:58:59 [anssik]

Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen

08:59:26 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

08:59:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

09:02:56 [QingAn]

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scribenick: anssik

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09:04:36 [anssik]

Present+ Glenn_Atkinson, Harjot_Singh

09:05:02 [larsgk]

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09:05:30 [anssik]

TOPIC: Wake Lock API

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09:07:28 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wake-lock/issues/128 What if WakeLockRequest is garbage collected?

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09:09:21 [anssik]

mounir: there's a spec-compliant implementation in Chrome

09:11:12 [anssik]

https://w3c.github.io/sensors/#sensor-garbage-collection

09:14:36 [mounir]

proposed solution: https://github.com/w3c/wake-lock/issues/128#issuecomment-412148397

09:16:08 [kenneth]

https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/

09:17:14 [anssik]

rakuco: problem similar to Generic Sensor, but in Wake Lock the effect is visible

09:18:18 [anssik]

kenneth: please open an issue against TAG design-principles for the generic CG issue

09:18:36 [anssik]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles

09:20:14 [anssik]

https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#managing-wake-locks

09:22:15 [larsgk]

In section 6, there is a note that wake lock is applicable if sufficient battery is available - but no mention of bailing out if depleting battery during wake lock

09:22:18 [anssik]

https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-the-wake-lock-is-applicable

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09:25:55 [anssik]

anssik: it appears "The wake lock is applicable" https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-the-wake-lock-is-applicable is not referred to from the requesting the wake lock algorithm https://w3c.github.io/wake-lock/#dfn-requesting-the-wake-lock

09:27:08 [anssik]

... that seems to be a spec bug, should open an issue for that

09:29:00 [anssik]

bryan: system level setting for low battery not usually exposed by platform APIs

09:32:37 [anssik]

kenneth: if the wake lock gets released due to device going into power saving mode, need to get notified

09:36:47 [rakuco]

TAG design-principle issue filed on behalf of kenneth: https://github.com/w3ctag/design-principles/issues/102

09:37:56 [anssik]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable

09:38:27 [anssik]

... (the reason for not being applicable could be low battery, or any other implementation-specific reason)

09:38:44 [anssik]

RESOLUTION: ask TAG for advise regarding the generic CG behavior, open an issue in TAG design-principles

09:38:50 [anssik]

RESOLUTION: invoke onactivechange and set the active attribute to false when the wake lock is not applicable

09:40:09 [anssik]

anssik: is the polyfill using 1x1 autoplay video still working?

09:41:12 [anssik]

mounir: yes it is

09:42:34 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

09:42:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

09:50:53 [iclelland]

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10:03:22 [xfq]

[Lunch]

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12:10:36 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

12:10:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

12:11:00 [anssik]

TOPIC: Geolocation Sensor

12:11:21 [anssik]

[tom presenting slides on Geolocation Sensor]

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12:14:05 [anssik]

-> https://rawgit.com/w3c/geolocation-sensor/use-cases/use-cases.html Geolocation Sensor API Use Cases

12:15:14 [anssik]

[tom walking us through the use cases document]

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12:22:29 [anssik]

McCool: question about floorLevel proposal, how do I find out which floor I am on?

12:24:40 [anssik]

kenneth: prefer giving more access to the web developer than the old Geolocation API

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12:29:38 [anssik]

bryan: in Edge implementation, we look for the epsilon value to figure out what constitutes a significant change

12:29:49 [anssik]

... this is to save battery life

12:31:42 [anssik]

tom: question on how to signal that the device cannot fulfill the accuracy and/or latency requirements

12:32:26 [anssik]

... think the developer should be informed if the requirements cannot be satisfied

12:53:46 [anssik]

ThomasTheDane: we in Chrome think being installed is one possible signal to consider whether a permission should be persistent, e.g. reopen PWA if granted permission previously, no permission grant

12:54:26 [anssik]

https://w3c.github.io/permissions/#implicit-signals

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13:03:41 [anssik]

guido: in sports tracker apps you do not need an UI at all necessarily

13:07:10 [anssik]

tom: one option is to expire permissions after some predefined time

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13:11:06 [anssik]

Alex: iOS does provide a banner to revoke permission if an app is using e.g. geolocation in the background

13:14:16 [anssik]

... this banner appears after the app is still using the geolocation after it has been backgrounded

13:25:50 [anssik]

alex: one option would be to show the user a (web) notification if within a geofence, and only expose the coordinates to the web app if the user gives consent via the notification prompt

13:37:04 [anssik]

guido: I think moving this spec forward it is important to have good use cases that cannot be done with the old API

13:39:58 [anssik]

anssik: the group agrees, and that's why the group started with soliciting new use cases

13:40:24 [anssik]

... and then do a decision whether to advance with the solution i.e. the API

13:41:48 [anssik]

alex: maybe it makes sense to make distinction between allowing a session vs. background geolocation access

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13:46:53 [anssik]

s/alex/alex_turner/

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13:50:17 [anssik]

Present+ Alex_Turner

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14:13:23 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/immersive-web/geo-alignment Geo-alignment

14:16:59 [anssik]

RESOLUTION: editors continue to refine the use cases document, derive key requirements

14:17:11 [anssik]

TOPIC: Web NFC

14:18:13 [anssik]

anssik: the Web NFC API is potential future work for the DAS WG, not in scope currently

14:18:42 [anssik]

kenneth: spec implemented in Chrome, web developers asking for it, used in production even

14:19:20 [anssik]

... API has been refined over the last year or so, few changes can be made easily to modernize the API

14:19:39 [anssik]

... some IDL issues to fix, otherwise basically done what comes to r/w tags

14:20:29 [anssik]

... p2p not implemented due to platform limitations on Android, should we remove it from the spec?

14:21:39 [anssik]

-> https://w3c.github.io/web-nfc/ Web NFC API

14:22:14 [anssik]

tom: what are the p2p use cases?

14:22:42 [anssik]

kenneth: not that many use cases for p2p, any data exchange using NFC from device to device

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14:26:50 [anssik]

RESOLUTION: remove unimplemented p2p prose from the specification, make it a v2 feature

14:27:50 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/w3c/web-nfc/issues Web NFC open issues

14:28:23 [anssik]

-> https://github.com/w3c/web-nfc/issues/160 Create error message when using proprietary tags #160

14:31:31 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:31:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

14:31:51 [hira]

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14:33:20 [anssik]

[reviewing the list of open issues on the screen]

14:33:32 [anssik]

anssik: any other issues that'd benefit from group review

14:33:37 [anssik]

[hearing none]

14:35:43 [anssik]

Alex_Russell: is there a path to an Origin Trial?

14:35:50 [anssik]

Present+ Alex_Russell

14:37:14 [anssik]

Alex_Russell: talk to ThomasTheDane regarding the Origin Trial

14:48:31 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:48:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

14:48:48 [anssik]

[end Day 1]

14:49:22 [anssik]

anssik: thank you everyone, Day 2 starts 9:00

14:49:25 [anssik]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:49:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-dap-minutes.html anssik

15:11:38 [iclelland]

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