08:36:30 RRSAgent has joined #apa 08:36:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-irc 08:36:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:36:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html Roy 08:37:01 rrsagent, make log public 08:37:55 scribe: Gottfried 08:38:04 TOPIC: Math prep 08:38:48 clapierre has joined #apa 08:43:31 zakim, who is present? 08:43:32 I don't understand your question, Gottfried. 08:43:39 rrsagent, who is present? 08:43:39 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is present' 08:43:54 rrsagent, who is present 08:43:54 I'm logging. I don't understand 'who is present', Gottfried. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:44:02 rrsagent, who is there? 08:44:02 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is there' 08:44:32 zakim, who is here? 08:44:32 Present: janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, MichaelC, Irfan, Becka11y, IanPouncey, Roy 08:44:34 On IRC I see clapierre, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, Irfan, aboxhall, mrobinson, MichaelC, Gottfried, janina, Zakim, slightlyoff, MichielBijl, trackbot, joanie, ShaneM 08:46:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:46:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html Gottfried 08:46:23 rrsagent, publish minutes 08:46:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html Irfan 09:01:36 arnog has joined #apa 09:01:45 hello 09:01:51 pkra has joined #apa 09:02:52 present+ 09:04:35 MatthewBrennan has joined #apa 09:04:39 mck has joined #apa 09:04:54 present+ 09:04:57 present+ 09:05:02 present+ 09:05:05 present+ 09:05:21 mhakkinen has joined #apa 09:05:37 present+ 09:05:51 volker has joined #apa 09:05:51 present+ matt_king 09:06:03 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 09:06:08 tackbot, start meeting 09:06:35 trackbot, start meeting 09:06:38 RRSAgent, make logs world 09:06:41 Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference 09:06:41 Date: 22 October 2018 09:07:27 present+ 09:08:19 present+ 09:08:43 nigel has joined #apa 09:09:06 nigel has joined #apa 09:09:41 Roy has joined #apa 09:10:24 TOPIC: Better Math Accessibility 09:11:54 js: Lots of knowledge domains have their own ways of marking up content 09:12:27 e.g., math, chemistry, music, etc. need generalized principles that can be extracted to other areas. 09:12:32 For a given user of a given AT, there should be a consistent, compelling, and robust user experience independent of what host language is used to render content. 09:12:37 present+ George_Kerscher 09:12:49 https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/9 09:12:58 jd: we hope we have consensus on this statement. 09:13:28 jd: It should not matter what the underlieing markup is. 09:14:23 js: Many diff kinds of AT and disability, we want support for all so they can have intelligent and meaningful conversation with one another. 09:14:24 +1 09:14:58 Do ATs need to know the underlying semantics to provide support, or do we want to put $THINGS into place so that ATs magically do the right thing automatically? 09:16:30 jd: Orca doesn't have math player, for instance. Does a screen reader need to provide custom nav between numerator and denominator ... if yes, then screen reader needs to know which element is numerator. 09:17:15 If sr just needs to be able speak or braille a numerator and does not need to know that element is numerator, then sr does not need to know semantincs. 09:17:21 q+ 09:17:28 q? 09:17:40 ack pkra 09:17:58 q+ 09:18:10 Peter: Idea of community group is to go bottom up rathe than top down. 09:18:34 Start with concrete problems rather than abstract issues. 09:19:13 Had workshop in san jose where brought togther tool devs, publishers, sr devs, etc.... last summer. 09:19:30 ack volker 09:20:16 Volker: Answer about semantics ... 09:20:32 It isnot the job of the AT to know the semantics. How could they? 09:21:07 Creating dictionary of math roles has been tried. It has not worked. 09:21:22 MatthewB_ has joined #apa 09:21:51 Peter: Equation presentation is a small part of math domain. 09:22:03 Summary: Science is open ended and grows everyday. 09:22:29 AT does not need to know all the semantics. But needs an open way authors can add their content. 09:23:03 Solutions for math equations may be different from equation layout in other disciplines, e.g. physics. 09:23:05 q? 09:23:30 gz: Author does not requirements of readers. 09:23:46 correction: does not know requirements of readers. 09:24:05 q+ 09:24:16 q+ 09:24:22 AT may need to build a bridge for specific requirements of readers, e.g., to help with comprehension. 09:24:30 ack arnog 09:24:46 Arno: for simple thigs it might be possible for AT to provide interpretation. 09:25:25 This could be possible for fractions, but fraction presentation can mean many different things. AT cannot have all that knowledge. 09:25:57 AT may read something as a matrix ut it is actually coeeficient. 09:25:59 Different fraction notations https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5Ba11y-TF%5D-ambiguous-notation 09:26:06 ack pkra 09:26:25 s/coeeficient/binomial coefficient/ 09:26:34 Peter: AT track record for interpreting sematnics is not great. There is a trust issue here. 09:27:08 Solve underlieing problems of authors for creating good experience, solve broader range of accessibility issues. 09:27:13 q? 09:27:25 Equation layout is very print centric 09:28:02 We have hacked print to do things like using different fonts for diff semantics. 09:28:15 q+ janina 09:28:21 q+ 09:28:33 GK: Publishers want a digital product that is visually appealing. 09:28:48 ack janina 09:28:53 If it does not look good, it doesn't get sold by publishers. 09:29:27 js: No AT has the expertise to understand all these knowledge domains. 09:29:44 q+ To suggest at some point today it would be nice to enumerate those needs (in addition to the three issues we have open against aria) 09:30:03 If we have tooling for good mapping, we could address these issues. 09:30:30 Names spaces can be problematic. 09:30:35 ack pkra 09:31:07 Peter: could fine to write a solution for some specific semantics like fractions and square roots. 09:31:24 s/Peter/Dani/ 09:31:29 But, we need more general solution for the complete domain. 09:32:04 q+ 09:32:26 (I realize I'm an observer and not entitled to participate, so please dispose as chair sees fit) 09:32:38 AT should not have to know the semantics ... we express the semantics with something like labels. 09:32:48 ack joanie 09:32:48 joanie, you wanted to suggest at some point today it would be nice to enumerate those needs (in addition to the three issues we have open against aria) 09:33:00 But, we could let AT know about some limitted small set of semantics. 09:33:05 q+ joanie 09:33:10 ack slightlyoff 09:33:53 Alex: The idea of general extensability is consistent with with is recommended in other areas. 09:34:25 It has been suggested that ARIA be more extensible. Extends what HTML can do. 09:34:38 +1 09:34:47 q+ 09:34:50 ack joanie 09:35:02 ack pkra 09:35:05 q+ 09:35:21 Dani has joined #apa 09:35:21 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/425: Remove children-presentational true from math role 09:35:30 jd: Issues filed for ARIA 09:35:32 https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5Ba11y-TF%5D-TPAC-2018-preparations 09:35:45 q+ 09:35:49 Presentional children false is a no brainer for ARIA group. 09:35:53 ack pkra 09:36:52 Peter: concerned about existing content that uses role math that expects children to be hidden. 09:37:10 jd: Safari may e doing that bug gecko does not ... she thinks. 09:37:14 ack volker 09:37:18 need to check. 09:37:57 Volker: Navigating ... we have tried using aria-owns but it is awkward. 09:38:12 q+ 09:38:27 q+ To talk about braille and aria-owns 09:38:35 I pasted the link above. 09:39:10 q+ 09:39:27 nigel has joined #apa 09:39:38 Rather than fixed roles, need some ways of providing summaries or descriptions. 09:39:55 Implementation consistency coul be one of the problems. 09:40:14 Arno: Implementation could e part of the problem. 09:40:24 In some cases, the spec itself could be interfering. 09:40:47 In some implementations, label and description are combined. 09:40:58 While you may only want the description. 09:41:08 ack pkra 09:41:12 It goes back to giving the author control over presentation. 09:41:19 AT presentation. 09:41:38 Peter: We have some time with CSS group later today. 09:41:48 Provided link with issues that have wish lists. 09:42:03 https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5Ba11y-TF%5D-TPAC-2018-preparations 09:42:43 We see some very basic problems we would like to tackle. We want these to be starting points for long term solutions. 09:42:53 Math is a niche, and there are limited resources. 09:44:10 q? 09:44:20 It is difficult to know where the issues lie: in AT, in spec, in content produced... 09:44:22 ack joanie 09:44:22 joanie, you wanted to talk about braille and aria-owns 09:44:49 being able to work more closely with experts in the WG would help narrow down where the issues are 09:44:56 q+ 09:45:00 jd: ARIA wg needs to focus on specialized formats, right? 09:45:22 We see this is something we need to have in the wg. 09:45:33 +1 to ARIA addressing braille as a separate "label" 09:45:39 Question is matter of priority in ARIA. 09:46:24 +q 09:46:31 q+ 09:46:50 gk: Are we thinking this applied to svg elements? 09:47:09 jd: I think it would independent. You can use aria on mathML, svg, html, etc. 09:47:17 ack Dani 09:49:18 ack pkra 09:49:31 Daniel: When we think Peter: if I want to give description for voiceing, then that has a very different shape from nimmeth braille 09:49:32 q+ 09:50:13 q+ to ask specific question about aria-owns versus new-nav-thang 09:50:29 Daniel: if we have 10x10 matirx, what kind of UX do we want? 09:50:45 Not just speak out all 100 numbers. Or drill inside. 09:51:09 Peter: May need to customize exploration techniques. 09:51:46 ack mhakkinen 09:52:03 MH: Big challenges with educational assessments, is to be able to present in both spoken and braille. 09:52:23 ack arnog 09:52:26 Speech we have asked to address in pronunciation tf 09:52:42 MatthewBrennan has joined #apa 09:53:00 Arno: May need multiple braille expressions of same element. 09:53:12 Nimmeth, UEB, etc. 09:53:38 In order to correct nimmeth translation, need to have semantic understanding. 09:54:03 q? 09:54:14 s/nimmeth/Nemeth 09:54:18 At authoring level, it is easier to provide correct spoken presentation, authors can do a better job of translating to nimmeth. 09:54:47 q+ 09:54:59 Almost impossible for AT to have semantic understanding; authors have that. 09:55:00 ack volker 09:55:00 q- 09:55:35 Volker: We are pushing speech out now with aria live regions. 09:55:57 ack joanie 09:55:57 joanie, you wanted to ask specific question about aria-owns versus new-nav-thang 09:56:22 jd: Would aria-owns work if all UAs reordered tree in same way. 09:56:38 Would a combination of aria-owns and aria-flowsto help. 09:56:50 aria wg needs to know what is most needed. 09:57:03 Not sure problems are lousy authoring or inconsistent implementation. 09:57:52 \me asks joanie: which github issue? 09:58:55 js: There are many different types of needs in presentation. We cannot be aware of all of them. 09:59:05 :) 09:59:11 q+ 09:59:34 Eagk: We know AT cannot interpret all these semantics. Cannot be done. 10:00:20 Providing a small set of features, such as exploration and navigation methods, braille output features, next stpe to define the AT presentation requirements. 10:00:49 +1 10:00:50 Start with some AT requirements and then get at least one implementation. 10:00:51 ack Gottfried 10:01:09 gz: is there a list of use cases we can start from. 10:01:49 Peter: we can get the use cases. 10:02:35 jd: Shortly after san jose meeting, I suggested joint task force. There was push back. 10:02:59 Another option is to expand aria membership. 10:03:09 We could have some invted experts. 10:04:55 Peter: I think there is enough interest to make working with ARIA wg work. 10:05:36 Some use cases for equation systems/tables http://zorkow.github.io/speech-rule-engine/resources/www/ 10:06:29 @clapierre Yes. 10:06:54 jd:summary: we will invite math people to aria and add to aria agendas as appropriate. 10:07:53 https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5Ba11y-TF%5D-ambiguous-notation 11:03:44 LisaSeemanKestenbaum has joined #apa 11:03:53 i am on the phone 11:08:16 anyone there? 11:08:58 IanPouncey has joined #apa 11:09:52 anyone there? 11:14:59 im on the webex 11:16:06 mck has joined #apa 11:17:25 clapierre has joined #apa 11:18:30 i am in the webex "apa at tpac" is that right? 11:18:48 Lisa: we'll start webex soon. 11:19:01 thanks 11:19:07 Gottfried has joined #apa 11:28:49 JF has joined #apa 11:28:57 present+ JF 11:29:05 zakim, who is here? 11:29:05 Present: janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, MichaelC, Irfan, Becka11y, IanPouncey, Roy, clapierre, pkra, arnog, mrobinson, MatthewBrennan, matt_king, mhakkinen, George_Kerscher, JF 11:29:09 On IRC I see JF, Gottfried, clapierre, mck, IanPouncey, lisaS, RRSAgent, jamesn, aboxhall, mrobinson, janina, Zakim, slightlyoff, MichielBijl, trackbot, joanie, ShaneM 11:30:02 webex reminder 11:30:34 thank u! 11:30:59 (if it is too hard just let me know) 11:31:13 (I can always take a nap :) 11:31:33 Roy has joined #apa 11:32:38 STeve has joined #apa 11:32:54 present+ 11:33:01 present+ 11:33:03 present+ 11:33:06 present+ 11:33:14 scribe:STeve 11:34:12 topic: Personalisation prep 11:35:01 present+ 11:35:06 thanks 11:35:22 Q+ 11:35:54 Comparison Page: https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Comparison-of-ways-to-use-vocabulary-in-content 11:36:29 LS explain our work and describe 3 taxonimies we want to choose from 11:36:48 Taxonomy (ies) Personalization Semantics Content Module 1.0(https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html) Personalization Help and Support 1.0(https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/help/index.html) Personalization Tools 1.0(https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/tools/index.html) Personalization Semantics Explainer 1.0(https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-1.0/) 11:37:03 present+ 11:37:14 rrsagent: make minutes 11:37:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html STeve 11:38:35 q+ 11:38:43 s/3 taxonimies/mechanisms to attach the metadata/ 11:39:30 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018/SessionIdeas#Personalization_-_How_Should_We_Implement.3F 11:40:30 CL will do the introductions to the WPG 11:43:21 JF suggests we indicate all formats we looked at but not details as we only have 15 min 11:46:23 The 3 items are thosew with with double asterisks in the comparison URL above 11:48:01 LS new attribute with addition mention in survey with is missing from the options (should be 4) 11:48:47

3 Attributes

11:48:47 11:48:58 Given name: 11:48:58 11:49:32 MichaelC has joined #apa 11:51:08 SL wonders if covered by one of the other 3? 11:51:22 LS says it's not 11:51:40 Janina: we have very limited time to address this 11:59:12 Q? 11:59:16 ack me 11:59:26 IP suggested suggested giving WP three to chosse from will be opening a rat hole and better to listen to them 12:00:54 MC says they will look for least damaging to HTML and easy to sell to WhatWG 12:01:39 Irfan has joined #apa 12:01:44 present+ 12:06:09 ack a 12:06:17 nigel has joined #apa 12:06:20 LS points out the comparison document does not provide details of all the selected formats 12:08:00 We are moving to the webplat meeting minutes will be imported from their 12:09:48 tink has joined #APA 12:10:51 tink has left #apa 12:12:19 IanPouncey has joined #apa 12:15:30 join:webplat 13:02:23 Roy has joined #apa 13:11:12 clapierre has joined #apa 13:22:25 florian has joined #apa 13:30:47 clapierre has joined #apa 13:30:52 Avneesh has joined #apa 13:33:51 IanPouncey has joined #apa 13:35:41 topic: Accessible Publishing 13:36:06 romain_ has joined #apa 13:36:14 ScribeNick: clapierre 13:36:17 Irfan has joined #apa 13:37:13 present+ Marisa George Avneesh 13:37:23 present+ 13:37:25 present+ 13:37:55 Gottfried has joined #apa 13:38:18 marisa has joined #apa 13:38:19 present+ Romain, Daniel 13:38:21 present+ 13:38:25 present+ 13:38:29 present+ 13:38:46 topic: horizontal review 13:39:19 scribe: Charles 13:39:26 Janina: synchronizing, possibly more, maybe a standard proceedure. 13:39:43 we look for, sense of what the FPWD is looking for. 13:39:47 George has joined #apa 13:40:17 mhakkinen has joined #APA 13:40:17 as something comes to finalization we come to good place, anything coming from you folks that you won't miss the basics. we will be looking for edge cases, I think. 13:41:11 q? 13:41:14 DanielWeck has joined #apa 13:41:15 present+ George 13:41:17 ack lisaS 13:41:42 there is only 1 spec? 13:41:48 Avneesh: Yes 13:41:55 Web Publications spec: 13:42:00 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/ 13:42:12 you will inform us if you find anything? 13:42:16 Janina: Yes 13:42:56 Micheal, we review on a monthly status, but as it gets close to finalization send us a request for wide review. 13:43:13 If you have any questions about the a11y of your spec please ask questions. Via public email list 13:43:25 Avneesh: sometime mid next year it will go to CR 13:43:34 JF has joined #apa 13:43:39 Micheal, so then a few months before go to Wide review 13:43:41 Present+ 13:44:01 We can skip personalization as you are already working with Charles. 13:44:20 s/Micheal,/MichaelC:/ 13:44:25 George: epub 3.2 has been approved by the Community Group but now needs support from the Business group. 13:44:52 Avneesh: Sync media, mathml, iso summisions. 13:45:01 topic: personalization 13:45:18 scribenick: romain 13:45:20 Roy has joined #apa 13:45:24 janina: a lot of it comes from COGA 13:45:36 … what kind of stuff do you want to markup content with 13:46:04 clapierre: the Personalization TF is now part of AP (was part of ARIA) 13:46:09 rrsagent: make minutes 13:46:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html Roy 13:46:13 … came out of COGA and IndieUI groups 13:46:26 … the goal is to enable personalization of Web content to personal user needs 13:46:35 … add and adapt content to more scennarios 13:46:55 … sometimes users need personalization of text or content, symbols, number-free, additional help, etc 13:47:14 … UA or other tech can use those semantics to augment or adapt the concept based on user preferences 13:47:39 … e.g. "9/10 people prefer coffee over tea" can be adapated to "almost all…" 13:47:44 Taxonomy (ies) Personalization Semantics Content Module 1.0 (https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html) Personalization Help and Support 1.0 (https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/help/index.html) Personalization Tools 1.0 (https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/tools/index.html) Personalization Semantics Explainer 1.0 (https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-1.0/) 13:47:50 … for digital publishing, we want to support personalization as weel 13:47:55 s/weel/well/ 13:48:48 clapierre: be able to personalize symbols is a goog use case for instance 13:49:10 George: the various HTML element, like headings, can have a CSS representation with symbols so that headings appear in a certain way 13:49:20 s/goog/good 13:49:29 … also the DPUB ARIA vocab, which could also associate with some symbols 13:49:48 … like the warning element (skull and crossbones), etc 13:49:58 … seems pretty doable without major modification to the content 13:50:24 clapierre: some of the personalization is also related to typography, color combination 13:50:34 … how content should be presented to you 13:50:49 … it's a traditional form of personalization 13:50:57 George: is that content or UA? 13:51:03 JF: probably a combination of both 13:51:16 … the personalization can set the condition in the code, that the UA can use 13:51:45 … e.g. the UA would map a token value to a particular symbol (skull and crossbones) 13:51:55 … the visual expression is left to the UA 13:52:19 mark: it's a bit similar to responsive design 13:52:41 mark: you'll have people questioning the change of look and feel 13:52:51 present+ 13:53:29 IanPouncey: on a case by case basis you can do that with stylesheets 13:53:44 … it's not that it can't be done 13:53:56 Avneesh: do we need to do anything more from the PWG side? 13:54:12 clapierre: you need to tell me your use cases so that we can make sure to incorporate it 13:54:21 janina: and share the vocab, so that we can map it 13:54:37 JF: see the links I pasted earlier in the IRC 13:55:19 clapierre: we don't know yet the mechanics, what the syntax will look like 13:55:32 … it's still up to discussion and debate 13:55:53 … it'll probably look like 2 or 3 attributes 13:56:04 JF: 3 types: values from a token list, URI, and strings of text 13:56:17 clapierre: simplified language might have a paragraph, multiple sentences 13:56:25 … it might be better to have that as a single attribute 13:56:44 … more concise things can use a token list 13:56:51 George: is that a substitution? 13:56:55 clapierre: correct 13:57:03 George: where would that stuff live? 13:57:14 JF: in the document, or at a URI if it's really long 13:57:33 … for instance to simplify a long legal text 13:57:45 … the actual final solution would be left to the author 13:58:00 clapierre: that could even go into image descriptions 13:58:27 JF: to the average user it may not be obvious, exposing it may depend on browser extensions 13:58:41 … the goal is to set the condition in HTML so that machines can manipulate the data 13:58:58 IanPouncey: similarly to ARIA attributes: it's there and anyone can process it 13:59:06 janina: sometimes the requirements compete 13:59:19 … you can't always have all requirements for all users at the same time 13:59:46 IanPouncey: like "easy lang" can mean different things for different people 14:00:02 … it might not be the right name 14:00:32 janina: it would also be useful if a 3d party could do this markup, like a university doing specialized content 14:00:46 … although it raises licencing and copyright issues 14:00:58 s/licencing/licensing/ 14:01:31 janina: I expect you folks might have a twist on this we haven't thought about 14:01:44 George: keep on eye on what's done in applications like Edge 14:02:04 … what they're doing is amazing: more spacing between the lines, font combinations, color personalization, etc 14:02:13 … all this can happen on the fly with the content 14:02:38 … simplified language stuff is very interesting and can go into AI in the future 14:03:09 clapierre: it's the "immersive reading" project that MS has done and is now part of Edge 14:03:23