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14:46:18 <dauwhe> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telecon
14:46:24 <dauwhe> Date: 2018-10-09
14:46:51 <dauwhe> Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
15:07:06 <ivan> ivan has joined #pbg
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15:27:28 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:27:28 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:27:28 <ivan> Chair: liisamk
15:27:28 <ivan> Date: 2018-10-09
15:27:28 <ivan> Regrets+ Brian, Luc, Jens, junko_kamata
15:27:28 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Oct/0004.html
15:27:29 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-10-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Oct/0004.html
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16:02:20 <MURATA> Me too.
16:02:35 <tzviya> i just started the meeting
16:02:42 <tzviya> present+
16:02:51 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:02:56 <dauwhe> present+
16:03:09 <Ralph> present+ RalphS
16:03:14 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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16:03:50 <rkwright> present+
16:03:50 <ivan_> present+
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16:04:24 <jeff_> present+ jeff
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16:04:57 <liisamk> present+
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16:05:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:05:37 <ivan_> scribenick: rkwright
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16:05:59 <ivan_> Topic: CG EPUB3.2
16:06:02 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:06:04 <Avneesh> present+
16:06:23 <rkwright> dauwhe:  Community group has officially approved the spec and is requesting the business group to approve.
16:06:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:06:45 <rkwright> ... 3.2 is backwards compatible, has been reformatted to be clearer
16:07:10 <rkwright> ... updated the conformation to external specs, such as SVG, etc.
16:07:27 <rkwright> ... so users of 3.0.1 shouldn't have to change their workflows.
16:07:41 <George> George has joined #pbg
16:07:53 <rkwright> ... How do we present this to the world?   EPUBCheck needs to be updated, for example.
16:08:09 <ivan_> present+ Mateus_Teixeira
16:08:16 <George> present+ George
16:08:22 <rkwright> ... So we would prefer to reserve the announcement until all our ducks are in a row?
16:08:49 <MURATA> +q
16:08:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:09:01 <ivan_> present+ makoto
16:09:13 <rkwright> liisa: Foes the BG need to use a particular process?
16:09:34 <wolfgang> s/Foes/Does/
16:09:41 <jeff_> ack mur
16:10:11 <rkwright> murata: We did add some features for Japanese support.  Do we know that reading systems will support it?
16:10:20 <dauwhe> q+
16:10:31 <ivan_> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:10:59 <rkwright> Bill_Kasdorf:  What is being asked is approval but not necessarily action outside the group?
16:11:00 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
16:11:00 <MURATA> What I said: We published 3.0.1, but was ignored by Apple.
16:11:05 <Julian_Calderazi> present+
16:11:09 <MURATA> I do not want to repeat the same experience.
16:11:13 <Julian_Calderazi> Little late. Sorry
16:11:48 <MURATA> I might be overworried.  But we had a bad experience.
16:11:52 <rkwright> dauwhe: We did have active participation from some of the RS (e.g. Microsoft and Google)  so it is not obvious why RS WOULDN'T support it
16:11:53 <ivan_> q+
16:11:57 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
16:12:01 <ivan_> ack dauwhe
16:12:42 <MURATA> Sounds great to me.
16:12:48 <rkwright> liisamk: If we, the BG, bless the proposed spec and then reach out to the RS to get their support.
16:12:52 <George> q+
16:13:36 <rkwright> ivan: This makes sense, but why, for example, did Apple did not support 3.0.1
16:13:42 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/issues/974
16:14:09 <rkwright> murata: But apple refused to support the reserved prefixes (see issue above)
16:14:59 <jeff_> ack iv
16:15:04 <rkwright> +1 tzviya
16:15:49 <rkwright> George:  I agree with the recommendation and if we were a real WG, what would be our next step?  Validation that at least two RS support 3.2
16:15:53 <dauwhe> q+
16:16:17 <jeff_> ack ge
16:16:38 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:17:00 <rkwright> dauwhe: EPUB's status has been complicated by the merger. There is a lot of value in a rigorously qualified spec.
16:17:25 <MURATA> I'm not requesting a test suite.
16:17:28 <rkwright> ... But we are NOT a WG and in the W3C this is not the purview of the CG
16:17:32 <tzviya> q+
16:17:42 <ivan_> present+ tzviya
16:18:12 <rkwright> tzviya:  Testing is a good idea but there is some concern about one specific vendor, i.e. Apple  Have we talked to them?
16:18:40 <rkwright> dauwhe: These are not great big problems in the grand scheme of things.
16:18:55 <jeff_> ack tz
16:18:57 <rkwright> ... It would be good to get Apple's view on these things but...
16:19:18 <rkwright> tzviya:  Agreed.  This is valuable but not essential.
16:19:40 <rkwright> murata:  So when do we publish and get testimonials
16:20:06 <rkwright> dauwhe:  We publish THEN get testimonials
16:20:29 <rkwright> liisamk:  I believe we should wait until it is a bit more
16:20:31 <rkwright> q+
16:21:28 <ivan_> rkwright: I am the only reading system vendor on this call is, what is exacctly what you are asking from us. Without a test suite it is difficult to prove that we are conforming to the spec
16:21:52 <wolfgang> s/exacctly/exactly/
16:22:15 <rkwright> dauwhe: We need to exercise the differences between 3.0.1 and 3.2
16:22:16 <liisamk> ack rkwright
16:22:36 <rkwright> q+
16:22:38 <ivan_> q+
16:23:14 <ivan_> rkwright: i have a quick quesiton, I agree with dave, but is there a formal document that goes and lists the differences?
16:23:20 <liisamk> ack rkwright
16:23:22 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-changes.html
16:23:29 <wolfgang> s/quesiton/question/
16:23:33 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:23:39 <dauwhe> q+
16:23:49 <rkwright> rkwright:  Is there a formal doc for the differences between 3.0.1 and 3.2?
16:23:51 <Avneesh> charter says 5 days email vote
16:23:59 <rkwright> dauwhe:  yes, I will supply link
16:24:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:24:07 <ivan_> ack dauwhe
16:24:45 <rkwright> dauwhe:  So we need to set up a formal 5-day vote
16:24:58 <rkwright> Bill_Kasdorf:  What is the process?  SImple majority?
16:25:22 <dauwhe> q+
16:25:28 <rkwright> Ralph:  It is a call consensus
16:25:38 <dauwhe> ack bill_
16:25:47 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
16:25:50 <rkwright> liisamk:  So we should start an email process to drive this?
16:26:24 <rkwright> dauwhe:  Is it correct that the BG is waiting for the RS to weigh in ?  Or what?
16:26:36 <ivan_> q+
16:26:45 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:27:34 <rkwright> ivan: I think it is fine if we do these actions in parallel, i.e. we ask the RS to give their opinion, but at the same time the BG can continue with their processes
16:27:52 <Avneesh> q+
16:27:59 <dauwhe> ack Avn
16:28:22 <rkwright> avneesh:  Would 5 days be enough for RS?
16:28:30 <rkwright> +1 to ivan and avneesh
16:28:35 <Julian_Calderazi> +1 for 2 weeks
16:28:36 <tzviya> q+
16:28:40 <MURATA> +1
16:28:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to two weeks
16:29:07 <rkwright> Ivan:  How about 2 weeks for the RS to give feedback
16:29:09 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:29:18 <George> q+
16:29:36 <Julian_Calderazi> Just wondering. Can we expect this window of time to be enough for RS?
16:29:52 <rkwright> rkwright:  When would the bell sound on this two weeks?
16:30:18 <rkwright> liisamk:  How about we start at the end of this week, i.e Friday 12 October?
16:30:19 <MURATA> +1
16:30:23 <Julian_Calderazi> deadline on 26th right?
16:30:26 <ivan_> +1
16:30:59 <rkwright> George:  Do we also want to ask for testimonials ?
16:31:13 <rkwright> liisamk:  Yes, that would be good.
16:31:40 <rkwright> dauwhe:  Is the timeline the same for testimonials?
16:32:01 <ivan_> topic: epubcheck
16:32:02 <rkwright> liisamk: We will always accept testimonials.
16:32:59 <rkwright> Tzviya:  EPUBCheck work has begun.  DAISY is starting to look at the code base.  Luc and Tzviya will set up a regular meeting with DAISY  to track the work
16:33:28 <rkwright> ... Logistical work will begin soon (moving repos from IDPF to W3C, for example)
16:33:41 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/10/epubcheck-fundraising/
16:34:03 <rkwright> ... alpha of the EPUB 3.2 support should be ready in November, with final release circa March 2019
16:34:12 <rkwright> ... Still looking for funding!
16:34:39 <ivan_> topic: bg and wg together at TPAC
16:34:44 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit?usp=sharing
16:34:52 <ivan_> q+
16:34:54 <jeff_> q+
16:35:49 <jeff_> ack ge
16:36:06 <rkwright> George: Question of nomenclature.  We have been using "EPUB 3" but do we need to be more explicit in our discussions, etc?
16:37:13 <rkwright> ivan: As WG member, I would like to know is what we do at the WG of interest to the various participants in the BG?
16:37:27 <tzviya> +1 to ivan_
16:37:35 <rkwright> ... It would be very good if this point could be addressed at our discussions at TPAC
16:37:36 <liisamk> ack ivan
16:37:36 <ivan_> ack ivan_
16:39:01 <rkwright> jeff_: Dave mentioned that EPUB status has been complicated by the merger.  If so, it would be a worthwhile discussion at TPAC to explore what it means to be "complicated".
16:39:24 <dauwhe> q+
16:39:34 <ivan_> ack jeff_
16:39:38 <rkwright> liisamk: Agreed.  This also relates to George's point about nomenclature.
16:39:42 <tzviya> q+
16:40:12 <ivan_> ack dauwhe
16:40:33 <rkwright> dauwhe:  Agreed, good topic for TPAC but it also raises the largerr issue of how does EPUB fit into the W3C and web-publishing.
16:40:46 <jeff_> q+
16:40:51 <rkwright> ... Many meaty questions there that are worth discussing
16:40:59 <ivan_> ack tzviya
16:41:34 <rkwright> tzviya: In planning for TPAC, we have explicitly tried to cover this in the agenda
16:41:55 <rkwright> ... So hopefully we will be able to come up with a cohesive vision.
16:41:56 <liisamk> q+
16:42:03 <ivan_> ack jeff_
16:42:26 <wolfgang> s/largerr/larger/
16:42:32 <rkwright> jeff_: Agreed that these are the right questions and discussion to have.
16:43:06 <rkwright> dauwhe:  I will volunteer to try and drive this as Tzviya is pretty busy at TPAC
16:43:26 <jeff_> ack lii
16:43:38 <rkwright> liisamk:  How do we we ensure that we are building the right tools and processes?
16:43:38 <jeff_> q+
16:43:40 <Karen> +1 Liisa's comments
16:45:10 <jeff_> ack je
16:45:15 <rkwright> jeff_: We are looking for a new champion to drive this general area.  We have interviewed two people but are still looking for our champion.
16:45:36 <ivan_> topic: conference collection
16:46:12 <rkwright> liisamk: We have started work on this set of information for people on the BG
16:46:40 <liisamk> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W_WWvwV93Cwx_hFTmeDQ2bBFW_Qn1j2duVJT1e3Wxfc/edit#gid=0
16:46:44 <ivan_> topic: math and ebooks
16:46:54 <dauwhe> q+
16:47:12 <tzviya> q+
16:47:28 <rkwright> dauwhe: There has been a fair amount of work on this topic, notably by Benetech
16:47:55 <George> q+
16:48:02 <rkwright> ... It seems like the direction we are heading is that there are multiple specialized markups that need to be implemented
16:48:02 <ivan_> ack dauwhe
16:48:07 <ivan_> ack tzviya
16:48:10 <ivan_> sorry!
16:48:27 <tzviya> q+
16:48:33 <rkwright> ... One approach is to use some form of polyfills using SVG, but there isn't a lot of interest in doing so.
16:49:11 <rkwright> ...  It may be that there is NOT one single, all-encompassing solution
16:49:35 <rkwright> ... We need someone who is willing to track this.
16:50:33 <ivan_> q+
16:50:35 <Ralph> +1 to "we need to solve this for the Web"
16:50:37 <ivan_> ack George
16:50:44 <ivan_> ack tzviya
16:50:44 <liisamk> ack tzviya
16:50:47 <rkwright> tzviya: This problem is not unique to EPUB.  We need to recognize this and broaden our view
16:51:00 <MURATA> +1
16:51:34 <rkwright> George:  Support what Tzviya said.  We do have a test book for Math that allows one to pass the MathML to an assistive technology
16:51:52 <dauwhe> The test book: http://epubtest.org/epubs/epub30-test-0330-20180905.epub
16:52:03 <rkwright> ... It is not a complete solution but is a start.
16:52:54 <rkwright> ... A solution based on SVG that transforms from MathML to SVG to allow accessibility would be great, but it doesn't currently exist.
16:53:29 <Julian_Calderazi> Sorry I'm with a neumatic  hammer very close to me. could you write?
16:53:34 <Julian_Calderazi> (...)
16:54:04 <Julian_Calderazi> kinda complicated to listen to you guys
16:54:16 <liisamk> is there anything you want to add to the conversation about methyl?
16:54:19 <liisamk> math ML
16:54:41 <Julian_Calderazi> Ho. yes. we have to keep in mind we will need to take this as a serious issue as regards to 'EPUB for education'
16:54:41 <wolfgang> s/methyl/MathML/
16:54:47 <dauwhe> q?
16:54:50 <dauwhe> ack ivan
16:55:41 <rkwright> ivan: MathML is only one of dialects that we need to be aware.  And it is unreasonable to expect the browsers to do this.
16:56:43 <rkwright> ... Alternatively, we end up relying on these "ML-polyfills" so it is incumbent on this group to work with those groups and help them improve their support
16:57:35 <rkwright> ... Where the W3C could help would be to help guide these polyfiller groups understand the problem space and how to solve it.
16:57:40 <rkwright> +1 to ivan
16:58:27 <Julian_Calderazi> +1 to Ivan too
16:58:32 <Avneesh> q+
16:58:35 <rkwright> George: There is some SVG work that has been ongoing in this area.
16:58:38 <dauwhe> ack avn
16:58:42 <rkwright> Is there a link to the SVG work?
16:59:36 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Main_Page
16:59:38 <rkwright> avneesh: IN the ISO task force call that happened yesterday, does someone want to share that information with this group
17:00:45 <rkwright> ...  One of the concerns of the ISO group is that they are not clear on how it relates to W3C efforts?
17:01:46 <rkwright> ...  Also some concern about how some of these conflicts and how they get resolved.  Plus, what is the timeline for these efforts?
17:02:51 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan_
17:02:51 <ivan_> zakim, bye
17:02:51 <ivan_> rrsagent, bye
17:02:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:02:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, Karen, dauwhe, RalphS, wolfgang, rkwright, ivan_, jeff, liisamk, Bill_Kasdorf, Dan_Sanicola, Avneesh, Mateus_Teixeira,
17:02:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:02:54 <Zakim> ... George, makoto, Julian_Calderazi