15:30:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwg
15:30:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/01-pwg-irc
15:30:11 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:30:11 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:30:11 <ivan> Chair: Garth
15:30:11 <ivan> Date: 2018-10-01
15:30:11 <ivan> Regrets+ tzviya, hadrien, laurent, deborah, billk
15:30:11 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Sep/0030.html
15:30:12 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting 2018-10-01: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Sep/0030.html
15:43:26 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pwg
15:51:07 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pwg
15:55:22 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pwg
15:57:02 <ivan> present+
15:57:13 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
15:57:36 <jbuehler> jbuehler has joined #pwg
15:58:15 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:59:06 <laudrain> present+
15:59:31 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwg
16:00:03 <josh> josh has joined #pwg
16:00:07 <JunGamo> JunGamo has joined #pwg
16:00:50 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
16:01:15 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:15 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pwg
16:01:17 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has joined #pwg
16:01:22 <ivan> present+ rachel
16:01:22 <romain> romain has joined #pwg
16:01:25 <josh> present+
16:01:25 <JunGamo> present+
16:01:31 <ivan> present+ bigbluehat
16:01:35 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pwg
16:01:38 <gpellegrino> present+
16:01:46 <rkwright> present+
16:02:03 <ivan> present +jbuehler
16:02:11 <franco> franco has joined #pwg
16:02:15 <ivan> present+ josh
16:02:15 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:02:37 <ivan> present+ garth
16:02:40 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pwg
16:02:43 <franco> present+
16:02:49 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
16:02:54 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #pwg
16:02:55 <garth> present+ Garth
16:03:03 <ivan> present+ david_stroup
16:03:34 <ivan> present+ george
16:03:40 <Teenya> Teenya has joined #pwg
16:03:44 <MustlazMS> MustlazMS has joined #pwg
16:03:58 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #pwg
16:04:01 <ivan> present+ teenya
16:04:05 <Teenya> present+
16:04:06 <MustlazMS> present+
16:04:08 <clapierre> present+
16:04:14 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:04:19 <romain> present+
16:04:24 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #pwg
16:04:24 <dauwhe> garth: Wendy Reid is stepping up as a third co-chair
16:04:31 <Vlad> present+
16:04:47 <George> George has joined #pwg
16:04:59 <Avneesh> present+
16:05:02 <George> present+ George
16:05:13 <bendugas> bendugas has joined #pwg
16:05:25 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
16:05:34 <duga> present+
16:05:42 <lsullam> lsullam has joined #pwg
16:05:56 <dauwhe> garth: shall we approve the minutes?
16:05:59 <ivan> resolved: last minutes approved
16:06:00 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved.
16:06:05 <lsullam> present+
16:06:10 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #pwg
16:06:15 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:06:17 <dauwhe> wendyreid: thanks for the warm welcome
16:06:26 <dauwhe> ... i'm excited to get more involved
16:06:33 <dauwhe> ... I work at Kobo, for five years now
16:06:49 <dauwhe> ... I work on both the content and tech side, now I work on the QA team
16:06:56 <dauwhe> ... I'm also working on audio books
16:07:07 <ivan> Topic: Audiobooks
16:07:08 <dauwhe> ... the audio books task force has met twice now
16:07:18 <dauwhe> ... the first conversation was to define audiobooks
16:07:25 <dauwhe> ... which was contentious
16:07:36 <dauwhe> ... see Hadrien's example in issue #247
16:07:56 <dauwhe> ... an audio book is audio-only primarily, has a toc, duration, author and reader, etc.
16:08:07 <dauwhe> ... it's not SMIL, not media overlays, not video
16:08:20 <dauwhe> ... but there's lots of commonality there
16:08:32 <ivan> present+ rkwright
16:08:35 <dauwhe> ... that's where we are right now. We have a few issues we'd like to discuss with the group
16:08:52 <dauwhe> ... as these issues also affect other types of web publications
16:09:09 <George> q++
16:09:17 <Rachel> present+
16:09:28 <dauwhe> George: this specification seems to be very much needed now
16:10:04 <dauwhe> ... I'm wondering if the implemenations of this as it is being worked on is... is going to be leading... will this be implemented before the rest of the spec is approved?
16:10:09 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's a good point
16:10:16 <garth> q?
16:10:24 <garth> ack “+”
16:10:26 <DerekJackson> DerekJackson has joined #PWG
16:10:28 <wolfgang> s/implemenations/implementations/
16:10:30 <garth> ack +
16:10:33 <dauwhe> ... tzviya reached out to BISG to talk with someone from the audio bookseller association
16:10:41 <dauwhe> ... but we need buy-in first. We need to make friends.
16:10:50 <dauwhe> ... We need industry buy-in before we make a spec.
16:11:14 <dauwhe> George: I've visited with them in the past about audio book specifications. They do need help. It's not a technical group.
16:11:23 <JeanK> JeanK has joined #pwg
16:11:25 <dauwhe> ... they'll need a lot of help and tools.
16:11:37 <JeanK> present
16:11:49 <dauwhe> garth: audiobooks are particlulary interesting... for other things there are lots of existing standards
16:11:52 <ivan> present+ JeanK
16:11:55 <Avneesh> q+
16:11:57 <ivan> q+
16:11:57 <dauwhe> ... but there is no normal way in the audiobook world
16:12:16 <dauwhe> ... so it could really help, and help validate the whole spec
16:12:27 <wolfgang> s/particlulary/particularly/
16:12:35 <dauwhe> George: the DAISY standard has not been adopted, as it was too complex
16:12:52 <dauwhe> wendyreid: could you share your contacts with us, so we can talk to them?
16:13:07 <dauwhe> George: my contacts are old, and I think management has changed.
16:13:17 <dauwhe> ... going through BISG for the USA sounds like a good start.
16:13:19 <garth> q?
16:13:39 <dauwhe> Avneesh: we don't have many readium people, but readium has plans for implementing audio books. I don't know the timeline.
16:14:02 <dauwhe> ... about the definition of audio books, this is the definition of minimum viable audiobooks
16:14:17 <rkwright> q+
16:14:19 <dauwhe> ... there is a lot of scope for building a more sophisticated audiobook
16:14:26 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
16:14:30 <dauwhe> ivan: for my understanding from the current draft
16:14:35 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:14:49 <dauwhe> ... when you speak of audio books, what you mainly make use of from our standard
16:15:06 <dauwhe> ... is that you can use any resource for the web, so the book is a bunch of audio files
16:15:12 <dauwhe> ... but we have an entry page in html
16:15:17 <dauwhe> ... does that create problems?
16:15:32 <dauwhe> ... there are also additional attributes to add to the manifest, which is OK
16:15:42 <dauwhe> ... is there some more complicated technical issues that have to be solved?
16:15:56 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes, if you look at Hadrien's sample file which works in a web browser
16:16:03 <dauwhe> .... there's a manual navigation process
16:16:12 <dauwhe> ... I don't see a problem with an html entry page
16:16:29 <dauwhe> ... the challenge for user agents will be to interpret the reading/playing order to make it seamless
16:16:35 <dauwhe> ... our sample right now is not seamless
16:16:58 <garth> q?
16:17:07 <garth> ack rkwright
16:17:27 <dauwhe> rkwright: Yes, Readium is developing audio support, but you should talk to Hadrien
16:17:56 <dauwhe> wendyreid: let's discuss the audiobook issues
16:18:19 <dauwhe> ... 307 and 308, about duration and bitrate
16:18:19 <ivan> Subtopic: duration and bit rate
16:18:20 <ReinaldoFerraz> ReinaldoFerraz has joined #pwg
16:18:45 <dauwhe> ... one of the challenges is the relationship between track length and chapter length
16:18:54 <dauwhe> ... so how do we express duration in an audiobook?
16:19:04 <dauwhe> ... schema has audio duration, using an iso format
16:19:25 <dauwhe> ... this could also affect video content
16:19:39 <dauwhe> ... our alternative would be to extend publicationLink
16:20:00 <dauwhe> ... we also discussed bitrate and format, which would be expressed similarly
16:20:13 <dauwhe> ... this also drifts closer to best practices
16:20:28 <ivan> q+
16:20:35 <dauwhe> ... do we want to recommend bitrates and formats, or do we want to leave it to the market?
16:20:44 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't fully understand the options
16:20:57 <dauwhe> ... there is the matter of the duration property, and what it's value can be
16:21:03 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:21:05 <dauwhe> ... I'm not fond of the ISO format
16:21:11 <dauwhe> ... but I still use them
16:21:32 <dauwhe> ... I would be hesitant to invent our own format to replace the ISO one
16:21:41 <dauwhe> ... we shouldn't do that
16:21:51 <dauwhe> ... we should just deal with the ISO format
16:22:01 <dauwhe> ... this is also the format recommended by schema.org
16:22:07 <dauwhe> ... so we should follow what they do
16:22:25 <dauwhe> ... we can raise the issue with schema.org at TPAC, and danbri will be at one of our sessions
16:22:35 <bigbluehat> q+
16:22:51 <dauwhe> ... that is also true if we take the duration as a property for publicationLinks
16:23:09 <dauwhe> ... even if we have defined the object, we still need to be aligned with schema.org
16:23:30 <dauwhe> ... so no matter where we use duration, we should keep to what's defined in ISO
16:23:41 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#the-time-element
16:23:59 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: html5's time tag and datetime attribute all use ISO 8601, so it's the prevailing winner
16:24:06 <dauwhe> ... even if you find it ugly
16:24:08 <dauwhe> ivan: we do
16:24:21 <dauwhe> wendyreid: no one is arguing, but we needed to bring it up to the larger group
16:24:22 <laudrain> ack bigbluehat
16:24:35 <dauwhe> ... schema has a value for audiobooks, but it might be harder to extend to video
16:24:41 <dauwhe> ivan: that's a different question
16:25:12 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the other issue is bitrate and format
16:25:21 <dauwhe> ... there's a secondary issue, #323, logged by Avneesh
16:25:44 <dauwhe> ... there are innumerable ways to encode audio...mp3, flac, opus, etc
16:25:49 <dauwhe> ... and many different bitrates
16:25:57 <dauwhe> ... in EPUB 3 we had the idea of core media types
16:26:01 <ivan> q+
16:26:15 <Avneesh> q+
16:26:17 <dauwhe> ... with WP, do we want to express recommended media types, more best-practices?
16:26:31 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:26:36 <dauwhe> ivan: what does HTML say about the audio element, in terms of bitrate and format?
16:26:52 <dauwhe> ... we should should push the corpse into someone else's courtyard
16:27:26 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
16:27:32 <dauwhe> Avneesh: audio element in HTML accepts a broad set of formats
16:27:41 <dauwhe> ... but popular browsers may use a smaller set
16:27:59 <dauwhe> ... we should not restrict WP in the way we restricted EPUB
16:28:11 <dauwhe> ... we should not have core media types
16:28:19 <George> q+
16:28:25 <dauwhe> ... but we do need to recommend formats for audio publishers which will actually work
16:28:46 <dauwhe> ... the only question is how to present this information? It could be in a non-normative document
16:29:05 <dauwhe> ... note I'm not mentioning EPUB4 here
16:29:36 <laudrain> ack George
16:29:40 <dauwhe> George: there are issues where human audio is in a smaller bandwidth than music
16:29:49 <dauwhe> ... so some formats are better for human audio
16:29:57 <bigbluehat> q+ to share more HTML stuff
16:30:05 <dauwhe> ... and variable bitrates can make it more difficult to seek to a particular place
16:30:28 <dauwhe> ... and the available of time scale modification, to speed up or slow down without changing pitch
16:30:52 <dauwhe> wendyreid: by identifiying use cases maybe we can find some recommendations
16:31:01 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.html#mime-types
16:31:18 <josh> q+
16:31:21 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: this is HTML's section on mime types, which is more generous than what you'd find in EPUB
16:31:25 <garth> ack bigbluehat
16:31:25 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to share more HTML stuff
16:31:44 <dauwhe> ... this also allows for innovation and progress, because it is not restrictive
16:31:53 <ivan> q+
16:32:15 <dauwhe> ... let's keep the web in web publications :)
16:32:34 <garth> ack josh
16:33:13 <dauwhe> josh: looking at georges use cases for seeking and time scale modification... do we have these use cases? Should we add them to the general use cases doc?
16:33:33 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we should have audio-specific use cases
16:34:02 <dauwhe> ivan: one more source to look at...
16:34:10 <dauwhe> ... there are two related groups at W3C
16:34:17 <dauwhe> ... there's the audio working group
16:34:37 <dauwhe> ... but what might be more interesting is the media and entertainment interest group
16:34:38 <ivan> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/
16:34:51 <dauwhe> ... it grew out of webtv but went beyond that
16:35:12 <dauwhe> ... at the Tokyo workshop the team contact was there, and I tried to convince him to join our F2F meeting
16:35:17 <dauwhe> ... so we could talk to him there
16:36:19 <dauwhe> ... I think we already discussed that we would not have a restriction on web publications--whatever works on the web works for us
16:36:33 <dauwhe> wendyreid: some of these issues could be cleared up by use cases. We'll discuss in the task force.
16:36:37 <laudrain> q?
16:36:39 <dauwhe> ... the last issue is #322
16:36:43 <ivan> ack ivan
16:36:43 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:36:52 <dauwhe> ... it came out of #320 on mixed media and the reading order
16:36:53 <ivan> subtopic: reading order
16:37:03 <dauwhe> ... some audio books may have supplemental visual content
16:37:14 <dauwhe> ... often added as PDF or EPUB, but no UAs support this
16:37:27 <ivan> q+
16:37:30 <dauwhe> ... could a WP support this functionality? SHould we have mixed media in reading order?
16:37:46 <dauwhe> ivan: from the WP point of view, more difficult to restrict it than to have it
16:38:03 <dauwhe> ... we don't have a restriction on the reading order--it can be any resource. PDF or drawing or whatever.
16:38:10 <Avneesh> q+
16:38:16 <dauwhe> ack iv
16:38:18 <ivan> ack ivan
16:38:26 <dauwhe> garth: your statement is correct
16:38:39 <dauwhe> ... what happened with #320? Why is it ready to close?
16:38:48 <dauwhe> wendyreid: because 322 addresses the question better
16:39:00 <dauwhe> garth: getting a PDF with a bunch of MP3 files is common
16:39:10 <dauwhe> ... so we're in a good position with what we have
16:39:22 <dauwhe> ... the reading order would be a bunch of mp3s.
16:39:26 <laudrain> q?
16:39:34 <duga> q+
16:39:41 <dauwhe> ... then the other stuff would be in the "resources" as it's supplemental
16:40:06 <dauwhe> .... out of band auxiliary resources go in resources
16:40:15 <dauwhe> ... not sure about having other stuff *in* the reading order
16:40:21 <ivan> ack Avneesh
16:40:27 <dauwhe> Avneesh: for 322, what garth said is right
16:40:47 <dauwhe> ... they were discussing the practicalities--what if the reading system doesn't support PDF?
16:40:53 <josh> q+
16:41:02 <dauwhe> ... what should reading system do if the media isn't supported?
16:41:25 <garth> q?
16:41:33 <ivan> q+
16:41:47 <dauwhe> ... Hadrien mentioned a profile for audio books, where the reading order might be audio-only
16:41:52 <garth> ack duga
16:41:59 <dauwhe> duga: avneesh hit on my issue
16:42:13 <dauwhe> ... should we say what happens when these things happen in the reading order
16:42:17 <dauwhe> ... I like allowing these things
16:42:19 <ivan> ack duga
16:42:30 <dauwhe> ... but I don't know how far we should go in the spec to require certain behaviours
16:42:49 <bigbluehat> q+
16:42:50 <dauwhe> ... I don't want to prevent innovation
16:43:04 <dauwhe> josh: I agree with that
16:43:10 <garth> ack josh
16:43:18 <dauwhe> ... to avneesh's point on what if a reading system doesn't support PDF
16:43:32 <dauwhe> ... a web publication should support anything the web supports
16:43:47 <dauwhe> ... but what if Alexa comes across a PDF? What happens?
16:43:57 <dauwhe> ... we can't say what every implementation will do
16:44:05 <garth> ack ivan
16:44:15 <dauwhe> ivan: back to one comment by Avneesh about profiles
16:44:27 <dauwhe> ... in a sense I could say we already have them, just not by name
16:44:39 <dauwhe> ... we require the type of publication in the manifest
16:44:50 <dauwhe> ... a reading system looking at the type can find out that it is an audiobook
16:45:08 <dauwhe> ... we already say that certain schema terms only make sense in certain contexts
16:45:27 <garth> q?
16:45:29 <dauwhe> ... no need to make things more confusing
16:45:32 <garth> ack bigbluehat
16:45:37 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I'd agree with ivan
16:45:57 <George> q+
16:46:15 <dauwhe> ... I'd also like to mention atom and rss, which started as text-only but then podcasting happened, and now both formats represent both audio and text, and possibly intermixed
16:46:28 <dauwhe> ... and you'd just listen to audio if your device has no screen
16:46:38 <dauwhe> ... but on some other device you could consume both types of content
16:46:46 <dauwhe> ... so we don't need to overly constrain the world
16:47:01 <dauwhe> ... we don't want the types to constrain things.
16:47:22 <garth> q?
16:47:24 <garth> ack George
16:47:32 <dauwhe> George: I agree with the ideas of not limiting innovation
16:47:40 <dauwhe> ... with AR, VR, etc
16:48:08 <dauwhe> ... however, if a reading system ignores what it doesn't understand, the audio book would be understandable if you just consumed the audio portions
16:48:17 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's the assumption that most user agents make with audiobooks
16:48:34 <dauwhe> ... we just don't offer the supplemental content, for example
16:48:51 <dauwhe> ... we don't want to stifle innovation. Supplemental content is important.
16:49:07 <dauwhe> ... the task force has work to do, including creating use cases
16:49:43 <dauwhe> garth: as far as resolving 322, continue on the issue, maybe discuss at TPAC, but keep working on issues in the test force
16:49:52 <ivan> q+
16:50:01 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we don't want to prevent different content from being in the reading order
16:50:07 <dauwhe> ... maybe use cases can provide clarity
16:50:12 <wolfgang> s/test force/task force/
16:50:12 <garth> q?
16:50:19 <dauwhe> ... the task force can deal with this, and come back to the group at tpac
16:50:23 <garth> ack ivan
16:50:33 <dauwhe> ivan: trying to organize ourselves...
16:50:54 <dauwhe> ... could we have a proposal of what features we'd add to the WP draft for Audio?
16:51:13 <dauwhe> ... after TPAC we could publish a new draft, that would have a solid basis for public comment on audio?
16:51:50 <dauwhe> garth: we have nine minutes left, we probably shouldn't start agenda #2
16:51:52 <ivan> Topic: TPAC agenda
16:51:59 <ivan> link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit
16:52:05 <dauwhe> ... we have a pointer to the TPAC agenda, and it's open for commenting
16:52:12 <dauwhe> ... it's not yet cast in stone
16:52:23 <dauwhe> ... I'm out next week in Frankfurt, but Tzviya is back
16:52:26 <garth> q?
16:52:29 <dauwhe> ... any other business?
16:52:46 <dauwhe> duga: there's a monday night group dinner in Toronto. That might be complicated logistically.
16:53:27 <garth> q?
16:54:08 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pwg
16:54:11 <dauwhe> garth: thanks wendy and thanks everyone
16:54:11 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has left #pwg
16:54:13 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/01-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:54:13 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:54:13 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:54:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:54:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, dauwhe, wolfgang, laudrain, wendyreid, rachel, josh, JunGamo, bigbluehat, gpellegrino, rkwright, Chris_Maden, garth,
16:54:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
16:54:16 <Zakim> ... franco, david_stroup, george, teenya, MustlazMS, clapierre, romain, Vlad, Avneesh, duga, lsullam, BenSchroeter, JeanK