14:59:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
14:59:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/09/25-pbg-irc
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14:59:18 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public
14:59:28 <dauwhe> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telecon
14:59:46 <dauwhe> Date: 2018-09-25
14:59:50 <dauwhe> Chair: Liisa
15:00:55 <dauwhe> Regrets+ Rachel, Jens
15:01:13 <Julian_calderazi> +present
15:16:55 <ivan> regrets: rickj, rkwright, brian, rachel, garth, jensklingelhoefer, tzviya
15:35:50 <ivan> regrets+ laurent
15:47:04 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbg
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15:56:56 <dauwhe> present+
15:57:13 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:59:38 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbg
15:59:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
15:59:43 <laudrain> present+
15:59:59 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
16:00:22 <ivan> present+
16:01:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:02:21 <George> George has joined #pbg
16:02:38 <George> present+ George
16:03:17 <George> George on cell with poor coverage and muted.
16:04:11 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:04:35 <Avneesh> present+
16:04:43 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:43 <Zakim> Present: present, dauwhe, laudrain, wolfgang, ivan, Bill_Kasdorf, George, Karen, Avneesh
16:04:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see George, Bill_Kasdorf, laudrain, Avneesh, wolfgang, Zakim, RRSAgent, Julian_calderazi, ivan, Karen, dauwhe, dmitry, bigbluehat
16:05:07 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
16:05:12 <liisamk> present+
16:05:35 <JulieBlair> JulieBlair has joined #pbg
16:05:46 <ivan> chair: laudrain
16:05:48 <dauwhe> laudrain:
16:05:52 <dauwhe> ... let's start
16:05:59 <dauwhe> ... news on EPUB 3 Road Map
16:06:10 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-09-25: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Sep/0002.html
16:06:18 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Sep/0002.html
16:06:39 <ivan> Topic: EPUB 3.2 status
16:06:54 <laudrain> dauwhe: almost done
16:07:16 <laudrain> … formal approval of CG next meeting
16:07:42 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #pbg
16:07:49 <ivan> present+ Julian_Calderazi
16:08:05 <laudrain> … final CG note to be published
16:08:09 <dauwhe> dauwhe: EPUB 3.2 is nearly done
16:08:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:08:19 <dauwhe> ... final CG meeting possibly this thursday
16:08:31 <dauwhe> ... then will ask for approval from BG
16:08:35 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:08:41 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the discussion of the spec was in the singular
16:08:55 <dauwhe> ... will it become a single doc?
16:08:56 <laudrain> q?
16:08:58 <dauwhe> dauwhe: no
16:08:59 <MURATA> I am wondering if w3c can provide testimonials
16:09:17 <dauwhe> present+ MURATA
16:09:21 <dauwhe> ack Bill_
16:09:23 <ivan> present+ makoto
16:09:32 <ivan> q+
16:09:43 <JulieBlair> present+ Julie Blair
16:09:48 <MURATA> Sorry.  My microphone is not working.
16:09:54 <laudrain> ack Ivan
16:10:02 <dauwhe> ivan: to think of what Makoto is talking about...
16:10:32 <dauwhe> ... when RECs are published, if we had a press release around it, we would collect testimonials from the members saying how happy they are that it was published
16:10:43 <dauwhe> ... the question is, what kind of communication will we do around 3.2?
16:10:52 <dauwhe> ... we will discuss with Ralph and Coralie
16:11:01 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we will do press releases these days
16:11:14 <dauwhe> ... but we need some blogging, and we can use the home page of publishing@w3c
16:11:19 <dauwhe> ... for testimonials
16:11:25 <dauwhe> ... we have some now from the merger
16:11:40 <laudrain> q+
16:11:52 <dauwhe> ... so we could do something similar with 3.2 on the p@w3c home page
16:11:57 <dauwhe> ack ivan
16:12:10 <MURATA> Yes, let's make some noise.
16:12:15 <laudrain> ack laudrain
16:12:16 <dauwhe> ack lau
16:12:17 <MURATA> I do not want be ignored.
16:12:24 <dauwhe> laudrain: the communication around 3.2 is important
16:12:30 <dauwhe> ... we need to think about it
16:12:39 <dauwhe> ... we are pushing a lot about epubcheck fundraising
16:12:47 <dauwhe> ... one issue is that it will validate epub 3.2
16:13:09 <dauwhe> ... so we need to keep the momentum on epub 3.2
16:13:38 <dauwhe> ivan: it may be worth getting together on a separate telco with ralph, ivan, coralie, and the chairs to talk about communication
16:13:51 <liisamk> +1 to ivan's telco
16:13:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: I was not thinking only of w3c, but of the external taskforce, etc
16:14:11 <dauwhe> ivan: the more the merrier
16:14:25 <dauwhe> laudrain: about epubcheck fundraising
16:14:29 <ivan> Topic: epubcheck fundraising
16:14:32 <dauwhe> ... the w3c page has been launched
16:14:48 <dauwhe> ... do we know already if funds have been collected?
16:15:03 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: or at least pledged?
16:15:13 <dauwhe> laudrain: one way we can push is by invoice
16:15:20 <dauwhe> ... some companies may ask for an invoice
16:15:25 <Karen> q+
16:15:25 <ivan> present+ karen
16:15:25 <ivan> q+
16:15:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:15:39 <liisamk> q+
16:16:03 <dauwhe> George: everything is up, we have had some committments, and the early committers have processed their donations. No money have been received yet. It's in process.
16:16:07 <dauwhe> ack Karen
16:16:08 <laudrain> Ack Karen
16:16:22 <dauwhe> Karen: I did have a conversation with a company that was interested in contributing
16:16:31 <dauwhe> ... I wanted clarification on the landing page being public
16:16:41 <dauwhe> ... and they asked about benefits for different levels of contribution
16:17:06 <dauwhe> laudrain: the visibility can be chosen during the pledge process. It can anonymous or visible with logo.
16:17:20 <dauwhe> ... I don't know if size of logo is proportional of amount of donation
16:17:30 <liisamk> size of logo related to amount is what it says on the page
16:17:30 <dauwhe> Karen: where will the logo appear?
16:17:38 <dauwhe> laudrain: it will appear on epubcheck web page
16:17:42 <dauwhe> ivan: that's unclear to me
16:17:46 <dauwhe> laudrain: we talked about that
16:17:58 <dauwhe> Karen: if someone could follow up, that would be great
16:18:07 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not clear to me, as I was on holiday
16:18:21 <dauwhe> ... has there been some sort of more public announcement?
16:18:33 <dauwhe> ... all I did was set up a website which links to the payment page
16:18:42 <dauwhe> ... has there been a blog or announcement?
16:19:04 <liisamk> there was announcement to PWG and CG and not yet a blog or larger announcement
16:19:11 <dauwhe> ... the other thing is, on w3c page, there is no preparation for any logo
16:19:20 <dauwhe> ... I don't know where these logos would appear
16:19:45 <dauwhe> ... and there is no reference on the home page at publishing @ w3c
16:19:56 <dauwhe> ... maybe Tzviya and Rachel know about this
16:20:18 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have said in the page, that contributors can be acknowledged on the epubcheck home page
16:20:30 <dauwhe> ... this is said in the w3c fundraising web page
16:20:41 <dauwhe> ... so there is an explicit mention of an epubcheck home page
16:20:54 <dauwhe> ... the size of the logo depends on the level of the contribution
16:20:57 <dauwhe> ivan: what is the URL?
16:21:02 <dauwhe> laudrain: I don't know
16:21:15 <dauwhe> ivan: I hope someone maintains it.
16:21:39 <liisamk> http://validator.idpf.org
16:21:41 <dauwhe> George: could someone check validator.idpf.org?
16:22:07 <dauwhe> ivan: that has the idpf logo
16:22:19 <dauwhe> laudrain: there's an epubcheck page on github
16:22:26 <laudrain> https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/WorkPlan
16:22:33 <dauwhe> q?
16:22:35 <dauwhe> ack ivan
16:22:37 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:22:38 <dauwhe> ack Bill
16:22:41 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:22:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the announcement went out to a number of orgs via the external task force
16:22:58 <dauwhe> ... including SSP and NISO
16:23:10 <dauwhe> ... I posted an announcement to the SSP industry events link
16:23:22 <dauwhe> ... and I heard from Todd at NISO, who will put that in our next newsletter
16:23:35 <dauwhe> ... but he commented that it doesn't look like it has much support from publishers
16:23:45 <dauwhe> ... I told him it just hadn't shown up yet
16:23:57 <dauwhe> ... so maintaining that fundraising web page is important
16:24:12 <dauwhe> ... his conclusion was publishers weren't supporting this
16:24:16 <dauwhe> q?
16:24:19 <dauwhe> ack lii
16:24:25 <dauwhe> liisamk: that's a great point, Bill
16:24:31 <dauwhe> ... it's just a chicken and egg problem
16:24:44 <dauwhe> ... Luc made an important point about 3.2
16:25:12 <dauwhe> ... we should communicate that 3.2 is about to be released, and that the epubcheck effort is to ensure validation of 3.2, so adoption can be quick and painless
16:25:13 <laudrain> +1 about EPUB 3.2 announcement
16:25:24 <dauwhe> ivan: what's the action now?
16:25:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/our/their
16:25:38 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have to figure out if we stay with epubcheck web page as github
16:26:02 <dauwhe> ... we can figure that out with Tzviya and Rachel
16:26:12 <dauwhe> ... and there is a process of adding contributors inside the webpage
16:26:22 <dauwhe> ivan: that's the question to me
16:26:33 <liisamk> q+
16:26:35 <dauwhe> ... what I put up is the call to contributions. It's not the epubcheck home page
16:26:38 <Avneesh> q+
16:26:49 <dauwhe> ... I'm afraid of losing the baby :)
16:26:51 <dauwhe> ack lii
16:26:52 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:27:07 <dauwhe> liisamk: ivan, we need to have a convo with the dev team about where the landing is
16:27:20 <dauwhe> ... it needs its own landing page, and needs to move out of idpf world
16:27:23 <dauwhe> ack avn
16:27:36 <dauwhe> Avneesh: the marketing page for fundraising
16:27:44 <dauwhe> ... this is the highest priority
16:28:01 <dauwhe> ... in the dev plan we've proposed a website for the user, with documentation and downloads
16:28:15 <dauwhe> ... maybe the marketing page can be on the w3c side
16:28:23 <dauwhe> ... we should get rid of old IPDF page
16:28:34 <dauwhe> ... we should have marketing page on w3c
16:28:53 <dauwhe> ... the rest of this is in the proposal
16:29:01 <dauwhe> ivan: who is responsible for all that?
16:29:19 <dauwhe> Avneesh: these are two things. the dev team is responsible for the user-facing page (with docs)
16:29:33 <dauwhe> ... the marketing piece falls on the management of epubcheck, which means tzviya, etc
16:30:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: the question... we should be able to add  contributors to the marketing page at the end
16:30:18 <dauwhe> ... I can do that on a weekly or fortnight basis
16:30:40 <dauwhe> ... how can we be made aware of contributors? Can we get something from George?
16:30:52 <dauwhe> q?
16:31:17 <dauwhe> George: I've asked Richard to provide an update to the SC on a regular basis, and he said he would be doing that
16:31:26 <dauwhe> ... how often do we want an update? Weekly?
16:31:37 <dauwhe> ... Weekly for the first month, and then monthly?
16:31:41 <dauwhe> ... tell us what you want
16:31:46 <dauwhe> laudrain: weekly to start with
16:31:51 <Karen> +1 weekly updates for now
16:31:56 <dauwhe> George: I'll send an email to Richard after this call
16:31:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:32:08 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:32:32 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we should clarify with richard... I think any time we have a committment from a publisher, we shouldn't wait until we have the money to acknowledge
16:32:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: more comments?
16:32:58 <dauwhe> ... development is not started
16:33:22 <dauwhe> Avneesh: what we conveyed to Tzviya is that as soon as you have confidence that you have sufficient pledges in one month's time
16:33:54 <dauwhe> laudrain: we need to be informed by Richard, then we share this in the PBGSC, then the roadmap task force will inform you about the committments
16:33:59 <laudrain> q?
16:34:05 <dauwhe> laudrain: more comments?
16:34:39 <dauwhe> ... if you have issues and further needs for epubcheck, please raise them in epubcheck's github issues
16:35:07 <laudrain> q?
16:35:24 <dauwhe> laudrain: there was discussion about image resolution check in epubcheck
16:35:33 <dauwhe> liisamk: I raised this last week with a couple of people
16:35:45 <dauwhe> ... image quality and resolution is a big topic for a lot of publishers
16:35:54 <dauwhe> ... ebook reading systems are evaluating in different ways
16:36:07 <dauwhe> ... Amazon was asking if epubcheck could warn people about it
16:36:14 <dauwhe> ... should this be in a future version of epubcheck?
16:36:28 <dauwhe> ... tzviya pointed out that we might not be talkinga bout a warning, it's more informational
16:36:52 <dauwhe> ... a file wouldn't fail, but would tell a content producer that your image is too small or too low-res to work in a reading system
16:36:56 <dauwhe> ... is that interesting to people?
16:37:04 <dauwhe> q+
16:37:05 <wolfgang> s/talkinga bout/talking about/
16:37:06 <laudrain> q+
16:37:56 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:38:17 <dauwhe> dauwhe: this would be an expansion of the role of epubcheck
16:38:45 <liisamk> q+
16:38:54 <dauwhe> laudrain: note that Amazon provides the kindlegen tool which performs this role for Amazon
16:38:59 <dauwhe> ack lau
16:39:15 <dauwhe> ... we use kindlegen not to produce files, but as a checker tool
16:39:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:39:43 <dauwhe> ... we use epubcheck first to check conformance to the spec, then we put it through kindlegen to see if it meets amazon's requirements in their closed system
16:39:59 <laudrain> ack liisamk
16:39:59 <dauwhe> ... I think we should keep the dedication of the tools to the formats they are supposed to validate
16:40:15 <dauwhe> liisamk: for the US market, amazon does not use kindlegen in the way they did in the past
16:40:26 <dauwhe> ... they provide kindle previewer, with qc functions
16:40:36 <dauwhe> ... I raised this issue because it came from them as a suggestion
16:40:53 <dauwhe> ... and I want to pull them closer to the epub world, and make sure we can still send them epub files
16:40:54 <laudrain> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:40:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm of two minds
16:41:30 <dauwhe> ... as we try to get epub embedded in more sectors like journals, etc. these requirements will be quite varied
16:41:50 <dauwhe> ... because EPUB was originally used by retailers, we made it easy for them to use epubcheck
16:42:01 <dauwhe> ... there's a difference between a model and a spec
16:42:42 <dauwhe> ... maybe we should encourage each retailer to provide such info
16:42:51 <laudrain> q?
16:42:52 <dauwhe> ... and we should keep epubcheck pristine
16:42:55 <George> q+
16:42:57 <dauwhe> q+
16:43:01 <dauwhe> ack George
16:43:29 <dauwhe> George: A couple things
16:43:33 <dauwhe> ... there's best practices
16:43:41 <dauwhe> ... what would we recommend?
16:43:44 <dauwhe> ... we should look at that
16:44:01 <dauwhe> ... we're planning a call with Brian from BISG on the future of epubtest.org
16:44:13 <ivan> present+ Dmitry_Markushevich
16:44:28 <ivan> present+ leslie
16:44:32 <Avneesh> q+
16:45:11 <dauwhe> ... we want to harmonize best practices with a tool
16:45:16 <dauwhe> (audio gaps)
16:45:26 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:46:33 <dauwhe> dauwhe: there used to be epubpreflight to check non-spec issues
16:46:35 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
16:46:45 <dauwhe> Avneesh: the first priority of epubcheck is to support 3.2
16:46:55 <dauwhe> ... and we have to deal with the fragmented test suite
16:47:10 <dauwhe> ... only then could we start looking at such things. That might not be for a year.
16:47:35 <dauwhe> ... expanding the role of epubcheck should be a higher-level conversation
16:47:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: thanks for reminding us of priorities
16:47:55 <dauwhe> ... it could be an issue in the github
16:47:58 <dauwhe> q?
16:48:22 <dauwhe> laudrain: we still have many more agenda items. what are the priorities?
16:48:30 <dauwhe> ... should we start to think about TPAC planning?
16:48:34 <ivan> Topic: TPAC planning
16:48:45 <dauwhe> there is a BG session joint with the WG
16:48:58 <dauwhe> s/there/laudrain: there/
16:49:04 <dauwhe> q+
16:49:04 <ivan> q+
16:49:15 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
16:49:43 <laudrain> dauwhe: provide business persperctive to the WG
16:49:46 <ivan> q-
16:50:04 <dauwhe> q?
16:50:11 <dauwhe> laudrain: could it be informal?
16:50:13 <wolfgang> s/persperctive/perspective/
16:50:16 <ivan> q+
16:50:21 <dauwhe> ... should we open a document to suggest ideas?
16:50:26 <dauwhe> ack ivan
16:50:45 <dauwhe> ivan: there is no rule for that, but when we discussed it with chairs, we didn't expect a detailed document
16:50:58 <dauwhe> ... it's a general thing that can extend beyond the joint meeting
16:51:11 <dauwhe> ... the WG does need more feedback on business
16:51:22 <dauwhe> ... the active part of the WG is mostly technically oriented
16:51:51 <dauwhe> ... the WG does need guidelines and feedback, which we haven't really received yet
16:52:04 <dauwhe> ... but perhaps we need to talk about how the groups relate in the future
16:52:18 <dauwhe> ... I don't think a detailed doc from the BG is necessary
16:52:21 <dauwhe> q?
16:52:37 <dauwhe> laudrain: the general idea is what Dave said--provide business perspective to the WG
16:52:56 <dauwhe> ... during the F2F there will be a session, a slot in time, where people in the BG who are not in the WG would join?
16:53:10 <dauwhe> ivan: any members of the BG are welcome to join as observers
16:53:16 <dauwhe> ... please come :)
16:53:38 <dauwhe> ... on the agenda, we do have a specific slot, perhaps Tuesday afternoon, where these issues should be discussed
16:54:01 <dauwhe> laudrain: we will have to play a dual role as a member of the BG and WG
16:54:28 <dauwhe> ... Will many people here be at TPAC?
16:54:29 <liisamk> liisamk will be in Lyon
16:54:30 <dauwhe> +1 to Lyon
16:54:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> I will not be at TPAC
16:54:36 <laudrain> +1
16:54:39 <ivan> +1 i
16:54:40 <George> George will be there
16:54:41 <wolfgang> I will not be able to attend - unfortunately
16:54:42 <Avneesh> +1 Lyon
16:54:50 <Julian_calderazi> -1 Lyon
16:54:59 <wolfgang> -1 Lyon
16:55:00 <JulieBlair> -1 Lyon
16:55:14 <laudrain> q?
16:55:16 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have five minutes left
16:55:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> -1 Lyon
16:55:48 <ivan> topic: tokyo workshop
16:56:00 <dauwhe> liisamk: we should hear a bit about Tokyo? And thoughts about EPUB preservation, which goes to a vote this week?
16:56:12 <dauwhe> liisamk: does anyone have thoughts on EPUB preservation
16:56:24 <ivan> s/tokyo workshop/epub preservation/
16:56:36 <dauwhe> MURATA: I believe the ballot has been closed, and ??? voted no, but I don't know the result of the ballot
16:56:48 <laudrain> s/???/Japan/
16:56:51 <dauwhe> ... it will take a bit of time, but results should be announced in a coupole of weeks
16:57:07 <wolfgang> s/coupole/couple/
16:57:11 <dauwhe> ... I would note that the Japanese proposal for a11y was well-received at the meeting in Seattle
16:57:28 <dauwhe> ... and so we will prepare a draft of EPUB a11y as soon as possible
16:57:46 <liisamk> the ballot for PDTS ISO/IEC 22424-1 EPUB Preservation - Part 1 doesn't close until Thursday 27 September 2018 at 11:59 EDT
16:58:26 <dauwhe> George: I submitted to NISO a vote of no, with similar comments about referencing EPUB 3.1, and that it should be rewritten for 3.2. And it never mentioned a11y.
16:58:37 <dauwhe> ... but I don't know how NISO ended up voting.
16:58:53 <dauwhe> laudrain: re: tokyo workshop. We are preparing a report.
16:58:54 <ivan> topic: tokyo workshop
16:59:04 <dauwhe> ... the web page of the schedule has links to the presentations
16:59:13 <dauwhe> ... and we are editing the minutes
16:59:20 <dauwhe> ... it will be available soon
16:59:32 <dauwhe> ... it was a fruitful and interesting workshop, with 70 people registered
16:59:40 <dauwhe> ... but only 55 attended?
17:00:04 <dauwhe> ivan: almost seventy were there, and some last-minute people. 68 or 70.
17:00:12 <dauwhe> ... we can have an item on a future agenda.
17:00:18 <dauwhe> ... and we are out of time.
17:00:19 <ivan> -> schedule of the workshop with links: https://www.w3.org/2018/publayout-workshop/schedule.html
17:00:22 <MURATA> I think that the WG was a tremendous success.
17:00:26 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone!
17:00:31 <ivan> s/WG/WS/
17:00:43 <MURATA> Thanks, Ivan
17:00:49 <dauwhe> ... we have our next call in a fortnight. I'll be at Frankfurt, so will not be able to chair.
17:01:00 <dauwhe> .... thanks everyone!
17:01:24 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/25-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:24 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:01:24 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:01:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:01:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been present, dauwhe, laudrain, wolfgang, ivan, Bill_Kasdorf, George, Karen, Avneesh, liisamk, Julian_Calderazi, MURATA, makoto,
17:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
17:01:27 <Zakim> ... Julie, Blair, Dmitry_Markushevich, leslie