14:55:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:55:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/09/21-pbgsc-irc
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14:55:57 <dauwhe> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Steering Committee
14:56:03 <dauwhe> Chair: Liisa
14:56:09 <dauwhe> Date: 2018-09-21
14:57:48 <RickJ> RickJ has joined #pbgsc
14:58:15 <RickJ> present+ RIckJ
14:58:32 <dauwhe> present+
14:58:40 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:40 <Zakim> Present: RIckJ, dauwhe
14:58:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see RickJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, jyoshii, Karen, tzviya, Rachel, dauwhe
14:59:08 <jyoshii> present+
14:59:14 <dauwhe> regrets+ Rachel
14:59:18 <tzviya> present+
15:00:52 <Karen> present+ Karen
15:01:21 <liisamk_> liisamk_ has joined #pbgsc
15:02:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:02:12 <liisamk_> present+ liisamk
15:02:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:02:54 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
15:02:59 <jeff> present+ jeff
15:03:08 <Karen> scribe: Karen
15:03:36 <Karen> Liisa: I hear echo
15:03:53 <tzviya> q+
15:03:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:03:56 <Karen> ...Do we want to start with EPUBCheck funding? Have we seen any commitments
15:03:58 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:04:11 <Karen> Tzviya: I have to check with Richard and George who are keeping track of the funding
15:04:24 <Karen> ...I have heard of people who have committed anecdotally
15:04:31 <Karen> ...Rachel spoke with orgs who said they would commit
15:04:39 <Karen> ...There are amounts coming in; not sure how much
15:04:54 <Karen> ...Julien @ contacted me about writing a post for a Brazilian blog
15:04:57 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:04:59 <Karen> ...word is going out, getting some press
15:05:02 <garth> present+ Garth
15:05:04 <Karen> ...keep pushing this.
15:05:16 <Karen> ...I will ask George to give us an update; would be good to get regular updates
15:05:20 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:05:31 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: As soon as site went live we kicked into gear
15:05:43 <Karen> ...Task force members would make personal contacts within orgs they signed up for
15:05:47 <Karen> ...we also said that the chairs
15:05:54 <Karen> ...a more formal appeal to go out from the chairs
15:06:02 <Karen> ...I drafted and sent it out but have not heard yet
15:06:05 <Karen> Liisa: we will do that
15:06:09 <Karen> ...had a tough week
15:06:13 <Karen> ...will need to look at that
15:06:30 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: Just want to make sure if we do it; who will do the sending
15:06:40 <Karen> ...thinking is should go out from one of the chairs, who would sign it
15:06:48 <Karen> ...I need to send you the names and emails of contact emails
15:06:58 <Karen> Liisa: I am happy to send to you contacts if you send me the list
15:07:06 <Karen> ...in the same vein, I have not sent note to BG
15:07:11 <Karen> ...we sent to WG and CG this week
15:07:26 <Karen> ...will do that later today or top of Monday to make top of people's in-boxes
15:07:32 <Karen> ...and help them understand
15:07:38 <Karen> ...I went to my boss this week
15:07:45 <Karen> ...explained why it was important
15:07:55 <Karen> ...PRH will make a commitment, but need to finalize the amount
15:08:09 <Karen> ...anything else we want to talk about relative to EPUBCheck funding?
15:08:17 <Karen> Topic: EPUBCheck Funding
15:08:43 <Karen> Liisa: I'll put purpose and future of SC later on call
15:08:50 <Karen> Topic: Promoting TPI and membership levels
15:09:15 <Karen> Liisa: In order to help Karen, Ralph, Alan we need to maybe work on a document that outlines what participation in each of these three groups entails
15:09:25 <Karen> ...who are the right kind of people to be involved at each level
15:09:27 <tzviya> q+
15:09:31 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:09:40 <Karen> Tzviya: One thought I have is to start inviting
15:09:42 <dauwhe> q+
15:09:48 <Karen> ...some of the evangelists like Bobby Tung
15:09:55 <jeff> q+
15:09:56 <Karen> ...although timing is not great in Taiwan
15:10:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:10:09 <dauwhe> q-
15:10:14 <jeff> q- later
15:10:15 <Karen> ...Good to communicate what the participation, and talk about exactly what the groups are doing and the distinction between the groups
15:10:23 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:10:38 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: Want to point out this is an opportune time to talk about the three groups
15:10:47 <Karen> ...the BG we have talked about in more amorphous terms
15:11:06 <Karen> ...When I tell people we're fixing EPUBCheck, that's a concrete thing people can get their heads around, and it's important for the echosystem
15:11:13 <Karen> ...and draft for Web Publications
15:11:23 <Karen> ...We have concrete things to talk about, not just generalities
15:11:27 <Karen> Liisa: great point, Bill
15:11:41 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: I bring it up because people wonder if these groups do things
15:11:43 <Karen> ack Jeff
15:11:48 <Karen> Jeff: some plus 1s
15:11:51 <RickJ> q+
15:11:57 <Karen> ...document you suggested would be helpful
15:12:01 <Karen> ...Bill's point
15:12:07 <Karen> ...documents are helpful, but in my mind
15:12:20 <Karen> ...the core people who are involved every day and every week understand the momentum
15:12:23 <dauwhe> q+
15:12:37 <Karen> ...the fringes of the old IDPF membership are not as plugged in as they used to be for whatever reason
15:12:46 <Karen> ...having lots of conversations is important
15:12:52 <Karen> ...perhaps even more than the document
15:13:00 <liisamk_> q+
15:13:07 <Karen> ...Working Group is very specific, charter, specs, in what is trying to do
15:13:11 <Karen> ...BG is less specific
15:13:13 <Karen> ...and is more open
15:13:31 <Karen> ...we should be able to tell people this is the watering hole where we discuss very specific things like EPUBCheck
15:13:46 <Karen> ...but we also talk all together about how to get adoption; how to relate to Amazon
15:14:10 <Karen> ...I would not call it a formal relaunch but make sure TPIs understand they can come here for conversations and get traction
15:14:15 <Karen> ack RickJ
15:14:35 <Karen> RickJ: I would like to make the case for an international audience for this document
15:14:43 <Karen> ...Southeast Asia, South Africa
15:14:53 <Karen> ...I want to do the next thing; help me get started and get involved
15:15:01 <Karen> ...this document could help to address some of that as well
15:15:02 <Karen> q+
15:15:06 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:15:26 <Karen> Dauwhe: I think we don't need a doc as much as communications coming out all the time
15:15:34 <Karen> ...web site should have introduction to all the groups
15:15:46 <Karen> ...but weekly blog posts, articles describing what is happening would be good
15:15:54 <Karen> ...BG as focal point for problem-solving in the industry
15:15:59 <Karen> ...we have not really taken on that role yet
15:16:07 <Karen> ...as Jeff said having that watering hole
15:16:14 <Karen> ...we have heard some pain points around the standards
15:16:20 <Karen> ...we need a place where we can triage issues
15:16:31 <Karen> ...I am having an issue, but is it a spec, workflow, vendor problem
15:16:35 <Karen> ...best handled by whom?
15:16:39 <Karen> ...one of our groups, BISG?
15:16:44 <Karen> ...that is a useful role we could play
15:16:52 <Karen> ...and would allow us to be more visible in the publishing world
15:17:02 <Karen> ack Liisamk
15:17:14 <Karen> Liisamk: I think we needed to be better about communications
15:17:27 <Karen> ...suggested the document to help us be clearer about the messaging when we're out there talking
15:17:31 <Karen> ...that personal 1:1 is important
15:17:43 <Karen> ...we have all come to this in different ways and have made this commitment for different reasons
15:17:50 <Karen> ...Personally, talking to my management about the work
15:17:55 <Karen> ...and importance of putting money
15:18:07 <Karen> ...reaction of 'you do this work for Liisa' not PRH
15:18:14 <Karen> ...and I said 'no, I do it for PRH'
15:18:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:18:25 <Karen> ...help people to make that case in their own organizations is a bit of what I would like to get to
15:18:33 <Karen> ...a good argument for why your org should support
15:18:42 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:18:47 <dauwhe> Karen:  we need both, in my experience
15:19:08 <dauwhe> ... to rick and liisa's point, we do need some document with talking points that talks about the digital transformation
15:19:25 <dauwhe> ... and how you get engaged in an org like w3c, and how to take advantage of all these things
15:19:33 <dauwhe> ... there's a high-level opportunity here
15:19:46 <dauwhe> ... and we need to talk about what each of the groups do
15:19:59 <dauwhe> ... we should go through the exercise of getting these talking points down
15:20:04 <dauwhe> ... and then how to communicate them
15:20:13 <dauwhe> ... there's a huge need for education and understanding
15:20:23 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:20:27 <Karen> ack Karen
15:20:30 <Ralph> scribenick: Karen
15:20:39 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: as you explain to your management
15:20:44 <Karen> ...first target is former IDPF members
15:20:53 <Karen> ...we want all publishers
15:21:06 <Karen> ...but let's not let Jeff's comment that Amazon joined W3C get lost
15:21:09 <Karen> ...that is significant
15:21:10 <dauwhe> q+
15:21:16 <Karen> ...I'm sure we have to be careful about what we need to say
15:21:23 <Karen> ...I am not advocating public things as much
15:21:31 <Karen> ...we don't want to alienate Amazon
15:21:39 <Karen> ...but personal conversations like you had with your management
15:21:44 <Karen> ...that is an attention getter
15:21:49 <Karen> ...Amazon is at the table
15:21:56 <Karen> Liisa: But Amazon is not at the table yet
15:22:02 <Karen> ...I told their book people they have joined
15:22:07 <Karen> ...they are not ready to sit at the table
15:22:09 <Karen> ...they are interested
15:22:14 <dauwhe> q-
15:22:23 <Karen> ...Jeff has good point, to carefully pull their book people in and back to the center
15:22:28 <Karen> ...that is a tough nut to crack
15:22:36 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: that is a good reality check
15:22:47 <Karen> ...and the accessibility work is relevant to someone
15:22:55 <Karen> ...at least a movement to get them more engaged
15:23:02 <Karen> Liisa: Absolutely
15:23:11 <Karen> ...anyone else want to jump in on this topic?
15:23:14 <Karen> ...as a next step
15:23:18 <Karen> ...I am going to commit to
15:23:26 <Karen> ...after I have gotten Bill his doc and sent to BG
15:23:39 <Karen> ...I am going to start a document that we can collectively edit; I'll send a Google doc link
15:23:40 <Karen> +1
15:23:51 <Karen> ...I think to Jeff's point of getting Amazon more engaged
15:23:57 <Karen> ...we can talk about whether there is any chance
15:24:04 <RickJ> q+
15:24:11 <tzviya> q+
15:24:11 <dauwhe> q+
15:24:11 <Karen> ...where we can do the one thing they want - warn people when their images are not big enough
15:24:14 <jeff> q+
15:24:19 <Karen> ack RickJ
15:24:31 <Karen> RickJ: is editing for the we the BG as a whole or this committee?
15:24:44 <Karen> Liisa: I think we start here and then take it to the bigger group
15:24:47 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:24:58 <Karen> Tzviya: you mentioned that Amazon has an issue
15:25:06 <Karen> ...can you ask them to log it?
15:25:15 <Karen> Liisa: Can I do it on their behalf? Is that ok with you?
15:25:19 <Karen> Tzviya: yes
15:25:29 <Karen> Liisa: let me talk to them and see if they will let me do that
15:25:36 <Karen> ack Dauwhe
15:25:47 <Karen> Dave: ....has not been best practices
15:26:07 <Karen> ...pre-flight; normative statements in the specs; concern that EPUB is used to enforce vendor guidelines for ebooks
15:26:13 <Karen> Liisa: I hear you and share that concern
15:26:23 <Karen> ...maybe think about what the marketplace needs from EPUBCheck
15:26:41 <Karen> ...does it become a more normative useful tool if it incorporates those processes that we all do on the fly
15:26:43 <Karen> ack Jeff
15:26:51 <dauwhe> q?
15:27:19 <Karen> Jeff: I want to tiptoe into comments about Amazon and EPUBCheck
15:27:26 <Karen> ...if there is something specific Amazon wants
15:27:34 <Karen> ...and we have an EPUBCheck funding campaign
15:27:34 <tzviya> q+
15:27:41 <Karen> ...is there a way to size the cost of what they want
15:27:46 <dauwhe> q+
15:27:51 <Karen> ...and get them started as participants by contributing
15:27:56 <Karen> Liisa: I would think there is
15:27:59 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:28:09 <Karen> Tzviya: If they are limiting image size
15:28:14 <Karen> ...and others are not
15:28:23 <Karen> ...then we are validating the spec
15:28:38 <Karen> ...error warning would be triggered for Rick unless we have a less specific error warning
15:28:48 <Karen> Liisa: They want biggest image files possible
15:28:54 <Karen> ...they have a minimum; at least this big
15:28:54 <garth> q+
15:29:02 <Karen> Tzviya: That seems a bit more likely
15:29:06 <Karen> ...we have opposite
15:29:16 <Karen> ...people could have bad images and they still want to get them through
15:29:19 <Karen> ...have legacy titles
15:29:24 <Karen> ...still have a problem; it's not a spec
15:29:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:29:30 <Karen> ...validation that other vendors don't have
15:29:46 <Karen> ...need to create a Kindle-specific warning and require other vendors to ignore it if they choose to
15:29:56 <Karen> Liisa: Or we engage more of the vendors and come to a standard about it
15:29:59 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:30:08 <Karen> Dave: I am not seeing our role for the quality of content
15:30:21 <RickJ> I have to leave for another meeting.  Sorry.
15:30:25 <Karen> ...sounds further from mission of W3C to enforce private companies' quality control concerns
15:30:33 <Karen> ...I see need for a tool, but don't see that as EPUBCheck
15:30:40 <Karen> ...make sure content follows the EPUB spec
15:30:50 <Karen> ...foresee large technical difficulties
15:30:58 <Karen> ...see if Amazon can swap out PDF or image files
15:31:12 <Karen> ...we are drifting into vendor-specific workflow territory
15:31:16 <Karen> ack Garth
15:31:29 <Karen> Garth: I think an info message from EPUBCheck would be overall good fo industry
15:31:37 <Karen> ...I would be happy to throw them a bone to get them more involved
15:31:45 <Karen> ...that would not be specific to Amazon
15:31:55 <Karen> ...agree we need to be wary on vendor-specific stuff
15:31:58 <Karen> ...this may be vague
15:32:02 <tzviya> q+
15:32:07 <dauwhe> q+
15:32:09 <Karen> ...but it may be done in EPUBCHeck and I woudl not oppose it
15:32:14 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:32:29 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: I agree with Garth; we do have best practices under development
15:32:33 <Karen> ...other thing to point out
15:32:52 <Karen> ...Accessibiltiy checking tools report errors and warnings and it is very useful
15:33:01 <Karen> ...they say this thing does not align with best practices
15:33:11 <Karen> ...doesn't say it's illegal or a violation
15:33:25 <Karen> ...not uncommon for that kinds of checking tool to enforce conformance and good practices
15:33:32 <Karen> ...admit that would be a next generation EPUBCheck
15:33:36 <Karen> Liisa: I totally agreet
15:33:44 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: We could add the image thing
15:33:47 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:33:57 <Karen> Tzviya: EPUBCheck already does errors and warnings
15:34:05 <Karen> ...in terms of low res images
15:34:10 <Karen> ...think about medical publishing
15:34:15 <Karen> ...a lot of those are not high res
15:34:22 <Karen> ...I get flack from Amazon about the quality of images
15:34:26 <Karen> ...they are not improvable
15:34:31 <liisamk_> q+
15:34:37 <Karen> ...they are not clear images because the magnification is 1000 percent
15:34:48 <Karen> ...we would need more detail about what Amazon wants before we say yes or no
15:35:02 <Karen> Garth: I don't think we want to do machine learning on high res or fuzzy images
15:35:05 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:35:23 <Karen> Dave: If book has warning in EPUBCheck it cannot get into the supply chain in US publishing industry
15:35:29 <Karen> ...if not an error or warning
15:35:39 <Karen> ...gate-keeping for content feels like a bad place for W3C to be
15:35:48 <Karen> Liisa: complete agree it should be informational not a warning
15:36:06 <Karen> Liisa: responding to your comment, Tzviya, why I have been arguing why we need to tag an image
15:36:19 <Karen> ...tell everybody it's as good as it gets; accept it
15:36:27 <Karen> ...don't put it on the page that it's low res
15:36:35 <Karen> ...Amazon would be happy to accept if we tag it in some way
15:36:55 <Karen> Tzviya: Do we have summary discussion about details tagging? I would like to invite them as a guest
15:37:09 <Karen> Dave: that sounds like in-line metadata about image quality
15:37:15 <Karen> ...stuff you don't want to expose to the end user
15:37:24 <tzviya> s/summary discussion about details/discussion about summary and details
15:37:24 <Karen> Liisa; yes, that was the problem about summary and detail
15:37:30 <Karen> ..I cannot let user see this
15:37:34 <Karen> ...space, I cannot do things
15:37:44 <Karen> ...It's Donald Trump from scan of paper from 1970s
15:37:56 <Karen> ...they asked me to have images re-taken for that book
15:38:11 <Karen> ...I explained I could not get him back with his exwife or make him younger again
15:38:27 <Karen> Bill_Kasdorf: Maybe WashPost would like to get involved
15:38:34 <Karen> Liisa: I like the EPUB fuzzy
15:38:40 <Karen> Tzviya: There are ways to obfuscate
15:38:46 <Karen> Dave: and schema, but that may take a while
15:38:53 <Karen> Liisa: all right
15:38:58 <Karen> ...Let's get back to the agenda
15:39:11 <Karen> ...are there any specific things we want to take to the BG next week?
15:39:11 <tzviya> i will miss the meeting on tuesday
15:39:18 <Karen> Topic: Agenda items for BG call next week
15:39:22 <Karen> BillK: Fundraising
15:39:40 <Karen> Liisa: Do we want to talk about image quality topic
15:39:50 <Karen> ...to be considered for a future version?
15:40:02 <Karen> Tzviya: It's fundamentally a change in the direction of EPUBCheck
15:40:08 <Karen> ...we have not really come to agreement in this group
15:40:20 <garth> q+
15:40:36 <Karen> Liisa: what I am asking is if we should ask BG if they are grappling on how to deal with images across reading systems
15:40:40 <dauwhe> q+
15:40:42 <Karen> ...or would you be interested in tools
15:40:49 <Karen> ...or if others say they have it solved
15:40:53 <Karen> ...But I think it's an issue
15:41:00 <Karen> ...There is getting the backlist up to speed
15:41:14 <Karen> ...and making sure the front list will work in that interim space for all the retailers you send to
15:41:21 <garth> ack liisamk_
15:41:24 <Karen> ...it is tough; not an easily definable space
15:41:30 <Karen> ...I think there are things we can share
15:41:31 <Karen> ack Garth
15:41:49 <Karen> Garth: I don't have an issue with fuzziness
15:42:16 <Karen> ...interesting discussion today, but wondering if it belongs in SC or be in BG because it's interesting stuff
15:42:28 <Karen> ...and makes people realize it's TPI topic of value
15:42:32 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:42:39 <Karen> Dave: a great topic for the BG agenda
15:42:39 <jeff> q+
15:42:46 <Karen> Liisa: what else do we have on the agenda for next week
15:42:48 <Karen> ack JEff
15:42:56 <Karen> Jeff: one thing we may want to share somewhere
15:43:09 <Karen> ...Dominique Hazael-Massieux is as W3C staff member for NDN
15:43:16 <garth> Fundraising update, I’d presume (for agenda for BG).
15:43:18 <Karen> ...basically used to be the Mozilla Developer Network
15:43:20 <tzviya> s/NDN/MDN
15:43:21 <dauwhe> s/NDN/MDN/
15:43:29 <Karen> ...he has been working to get their agreement to put things on MDN
15:43:47 <Karen> ...related to developers not necessarily browser technologies like what Mozilla usually implements
15:43:52 <tzviya> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Related
15:43:55 <tzviya> q+
15:43:55 <Karen> ...but other web technologies that are used by others
15:44:10 <Karen> ...would be good for Dom to share with BG on what his conversations have been and how to take that forward
15:44:19 <Karen> Liisa: Could someone who can explain it join the call?
15:44:29 <Karen> Jeff: Dom would do it; don't know if he is available
15:44:36 <Karen> ack Tzviya: I have spoken with Dom about this
15:44:41 <Karen> ...forgot to put on the agenda
15:44:50 <Karen> ...I spoke extensively about what would be needed to add EPUB
15:44:53 <Karen> ...dropped a link in
15:44:59 <Karen> ...we still need to get to TPI discussion
15:45:16 <Karen> ...we could put on the agenda for next time, or I could talk about what would be involved in documenting MDN
15:45:25 <Karen> Liisa: Do you want to talk about it here before taking to the BG?
15:45:40 <Karen> Tzviya: there is significant resource requirement; think we should discuss here first
15:45:44 <Karen> Liisa: ok
15:45:56 <Karen> ...any further comments for next week [agenda] for the BG
15:46:02 <Karen> ...I want to raise a conversation about pagination
15:46:16 <Karen> ...an interesting business level conversation to have; will likely push into best practices
15:46:24 <Karen> ...from content and reading system standpoints
15:46:29 <Karen> ...when you move things out of order
15:46:39 <Karen> ...paginate not in print but inserted in middle of book
15:46:44 <Karen> ...if people are addressing those issues
15:46:53 <Karen> ...we have been looking at issues coming up from reading systems
15:47:01 <Karen> ...think we are not alone in some of the questions that have been raised
15:47:23 <Karen> Dave: by pagination, you mean expressing numbers in EPUB when they are not exact analogs?
15:47:27 <Karen> Liisa: exactly
15:47:34 <Karen> ...point made about different kinds of publishers
15:47:49 <Karen> ...this may be different for different people; where is it needed and where is the preciseness of it needed
15:47:53 <Karen> ...In time we have left
15:48:00 <Karen> ...shall we talk about role of this group?
15:48:11 <Karen> Topic: Role of Publishing Steering Committee
15:48:16 <Karen> ...do we need to formalize it
15:48:22 <Karen> ...put our thoughts on paper
15:48:24 <dauwhe> q+
15:48:27 <Karen> ...now is time to jump in
15:48:29 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:48:48 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:48:56 <Karen> Dave: I have
15:48:59 <Karen> ...not entirely clear to me
15:49:03 <Karen> ...what the role of the SC is
15:49:11 <Karen> ...this is in some ways a holdover from the IDPF board
15:49:22 <Karen> ...it was a literal board of directors that had many things it has to do
15:49:33 <Karen> ...so the environment around that board has changed dramatically since the merger
15:49:35 <garth> q+
15:49:40 <Karen> ...the way these calls have been going is some combination
15:49:45 <Karen> ...of working on agendas for BG meetings
15:50:03 <Karen> ...and having substantive conversations about issues important to the industry that don't have to be restricted
15:50:10 <Karen> ...I have impulse to try things without a SC
15:50:19 <Karen> ...seems mission of BG is to provide coordination and leadership
15:50:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:50:30 <Karen> ...and work on intneraction between other groups
15:50:38 <Karen> ...feels like we may some duplication of effort
15:50:40 <Karen> ack Barth
15:50:44 <Karen> s/Barth
15:50:46 <Karen> ack Garth
15:50:51 <Karen> Garth: I agree with Dave
15:50:58 <Karen> ...but cannot refer to merger as complete
15:51:06 <Karen> ...it is still embroiled in litigation
15:51:22 <Karen> ...we made a substantial change to be heads of working groups and task forces
15:51:43 <Karen> ...I don't think we want SC to go away right now because merger is not complete
15:51:56 <Karen> ...but SC should do as little as possible and put the bulk of the stuff into the BG proper
15:52:00 <liisamk_> q+
15:52:01 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:52:10 <Karen> BillK: mainly Garth's point
15:52:19 <Karen> ...and observation that SC does a lot of the work and BG is more passive
15:52:24 <dauwhe> q+
15:52:36 <Karen> ...that ambiguity of who approves decision on who gets the EPUBCheck development work
15:52:39 <Karen> ...the SC did all that
15:52:49 <Karen> ...nothing is really being done by the BG; it's all being done by the SC
15:53:05 <Karen> ...does not seem like that was the original idea for the BG; that's the formal group in the W3C
15:53:12 <Karen> ack Liisamk
15:53:30 <Karen> Liisamk: as Garth said, the SC is the coordination among the groups
15:53:42 <Karen> ...ask if we should bring certain items forward to other groups
15:53:47 <Karen> ...we have strong opinions
15:54:01 <Karen> ...kind of nice to talk through our opinions here so we don't overwhelm others
15:54:08 <tzviya> q+
15:54:08 <Karen> ...would we drown out other voices
15:54:16 <Karen> ...how can we pull other voices into the conversations
15:54:20 <Karen> ...put our feelings aside
15:54:24 <Karen> ...seed conversations along
15:54:38 <Karen> ...get the BG actually active and not overwhelm them with being a second meeting of all of us
15:54:43 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:54:51 <Karen> Dave: I am worried about the flip side of that
15:55:08 <Karen> ...how do we get people engaged if the interesting conversations are happening in the SC
15:55:20 <Karen> ...other things happen in a group that you are not a member of
15:55:30 <Karen> Liisa: I don't think we stop people from discussing
15:56:01 <Karen> Dave: EPUBCHeck conversation would be a good one; don't think we're helping by insulating them from those discussion
15:56:10 <Karen> ack Tzviya: maybe we are overprotective
15:56:22 <Karen> ...this conversation about what EPUBCheck is and should we expand it, and resources is interesting
15:56:30 <Karen> ...maybe we have these conversations with the larger group
15:56:36 <Karen> ...WG has these kinds of conversations
15:56:48 <Karen> ...having them twice is not as interesting the second time
15:56:52 <dauwhe> +1 to tzviya
15:56:53 <Karen> Liisa: anybody else?
15:57:00 <dauwhe> q+
15:57:06 <Karen> ack Tzviya
15:57:10 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:57:17 <Karen> Dave: Just briefly mention that the SC
15:57:28 <Karen> ...is something that does not fit neatly in the W3C process right now
15:57:33 <Karen> ...the BG makes all the decisions
15:57:40 <Karen> ...we would be fine with the BG
15:57:44 <Karen> Liisa: I honestly don't
15:57:50 <Karen> ...I explained this to Jeff and Karen
15:58:02 <Karen> ...I have tried over last year to see what it's like to just be a member not of BG
15:58:11 <Karen> ...and not pay attention to other two groups
15:58:18 <Karen> ...where I find out about the other groups is here
15:58:24 <Karen> ...You don't bring them to the BG
15:58:27 <dauwhe> q+
15:58:41 <Karen> ...and it makes me realize we need to figure out a better coordination
15:58:43 <Karen> ...if not SC
15:58:48 <Karen> ...we'll need to figure out where it is
15:59:01 <Karen> ...We came here understanding that this is a bit of an experiment
15:59:10 <Karen> ...not exactly the same model W3C has had
15:59:15 <jeff> q+
15:59:28 <Karen> ...I am concerned we are effective and no one wastes their time
15:59:31 <Karen> ack dauwhe
15:59:48 <Karen> Dave: brings up communications and more topics in the BG and keep all participants informed
15:59:49 <Karen> ack Jeff
15:59:56 <Karen> Jeff: I don't have a strong opinion about this
16:00:02 <Karen> ...the way the non-working groups
16:00:12 <Karen> ...work is more for team to stay out of
16:00:24 <Karen> ...but I'm hearing both sides and hearing that BG is where nexus of conversation should happen
16:00:33 <Karen> ...and others say they are not happening is they are in SC instead
16:00:44 <Karen> ...one possible way forward is to keep SC for a period of time
16:00:57 <Karen> ...those who think conversations should be in BG, then be encouraged to do so
16:01:08 <Karen> ...and they will have proved their point and SC is no longer needed
16:01:18 <Karen> ...if not, we keep SC as a central point of coordination
16:01:24 <liisamk_> +1 to Jeff
16:01:26 <Karen> @: I like that
16:01:31 <dauwhe> +1
16:01:41 <Karen> Liisa: We are at over our time
16:01:57 <Karen> ...if anybody thinks of anything else for BG agenda next week, let me know. I will send out agenda this afternoon
16:02:02 <Karen> Garth: thanks Liisa and Karen
16:02:08 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/21-pbgsc-minutes.html Karen
16:43:48 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbgsc
17:00:43 <jeff> jeff has joined #pbgsc
17:31:16 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public
17:33:10 <tzviya> rrsagent, byw
17:33:10 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'byw', tzviya.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:33:16 <tzviya> rrsagent, bye
17:33:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items