14:00:50 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:00:50 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-irc 14:00:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:00:52 Zakim has joined #tt 14:00:54 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:00:54 Date: 13 September 2018 14:01:19 Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-irc 14:01:20 cyril has joined #tt 14:01:46 Present: Andreas, Cyril, Glenn, Pierre, Nigel 14:01:48 Chair: Nigel 14:01:50 scribe: nigel 14:01:55 Regrets: None 14:02:20 Cyril: I can stay only for an hour today 14:02:34 Topic: This meeting 14:03:02 glenn has joined #tt 14:03:25 Nigel: Today we have CfC Status update, Implementation Report run-through on each of 14:03:42 .. TTML1 3rd Edition, TTML2 and IMSC 1.1, and any other open agenda issues. 14:03:46 tmichel has joined #tt 14:03:53 .. There's one I know of which is for audio features on TTML2. 14:04:13 .. Then we can also cover IMSC vNext Requirements and I'm not aware of anything else. 14:04:24 .. Any other points to cover, or other business? 14:04:48 Glenn: When we get to TTML2 I'd like to get approval for a pull request that's outstanding. 14:05:18 Present+ Thierry 14:05:58 Nigel: Okay let's look at that in the TTML2 agenda item. 14:06:20 Nigel: By the way I haven't put TPAC agenda on the meeting agenda yet, we need to begin 14:06:27 .. thinking more about that in the coming weeks. 14:06:52 .. By the way there is a wiki page for TPAC so please add your names if you have not already, 14:06:58 .. and if you intend to attend. 14:07:22 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2018 TPAC 2018 TTWG page 14:07:50 Topic: CfC status update 14:08:10 Nigel: As per the plan we agreed I issued CfCs for TTML1 3rd Edition, TTML2 and IMSC 1.1 14:08:21 .. yesterday, which began the review period. 14:08:55 .. Please do check the documents are suitable for publication as PR. We won't request the 14:09:05 .. transition to PR until we have completed the Implementation Reports. 14:09:20 Glenn: Please could you remind us of what date we have to submit the transition request by? 14:09:37 -> https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/specs-timeline.html TTML spes timeline 14:10:00 Nigel: Yes, we are on the "TTML2" column for timing for all three specs now. 14:10:33 .. That means end of CfC 26th September, IR complete 27th September, Staff checks 14:10:51 .. and uploads specs to final destination on TR on 28th September, and PR transition request 14:10:56 .. submitted on 28th September. 14:11:20 pal has joined #tt 14:11:42 Nigel: One thing to note about the CfCs is the SoTD sections have been updated for PR, 14:11:46 .. and need to be checked. 14:12:01 .. Thierry, please could you check the AC review link is the right one? 14:12:11 Thierry: Yes, I'll check that. 14:12:31 Nigel: Thanks. Another thing is for TTML2 there may be a feature removal/adjustment to 14:12:44 .. be made, and there seems to be one other pull request to review. 14:13:00 .. On the whole though, we're in a pretty good state, the state we said we'd be in! 14:13:14 .. Thank you everyone for your hard work getting us to here. 14:13:23 .. A few more leaps to make of course! 14:13:40 .. Any comments on those CfCs? 14:13:44 group: [silence] 14:13:57 Topic: TTML1 Implementation Report 14:14:12 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML1-3ED_implementation_report TTML1 3rd Edition Implementation Report 14:14:50 Nigel: I see it is partially populated at the moment, with entries for imscJS and empty 14:14:56 .. columns for TTPE and ttval. 14:15:12 Glenn: Review CR exit criteria 14:15:19 Nigel: Two independent implementations 14:15:48 Glenn: So if I add TTV or TTX in would that be adequate? 14:15:50 Nigel: Yes 14:16:03 Pierre: One column or two separate ones? 14:16:16 Glenn: Separate ones. We can leave the TTPE one in place and mark the two value font 14:16:27 .. size tests as passed. I may have a chance to verify the other ones and will attempt to 14:16:31 .. do so on the TTPE column. 14:16:44 .. I will run all the tests through TTX and TTV to make sure everything is kosher there, shortly. 14:20:58 Pierre: Just to confirm, in the case of the anamorphic font tests, there will be one 14:21:27 .. presentation engine implementations and there will be one or more validator implementations. 14:21:59 Glenn: Pierre, will you be filling in the ttval column? 14:22:09 Pierre: I will do for at least the two value font size tests. 14:22:33 Nigel: I'm a little uncertain still after getting a response to my advance notice to the Director 14:22:51 .. about our approach to demonstrating implementations of those features. The reason 14:23:04 .. for my uncertainty at this stage is because the spec changes did not affect validation 14:23:29 .. but only affected computation of the font size. 14:23:46 .. So a mere validation test could arguably offer no demonstration of implementability of 14:23:54 .. the change since TTML1 2ed. 14:24:07 .. The Director seems to want something that does show that. It could be that a validator 14:24:17 .. is okay, but certainly not a simple XSD schema runner. 14:24:35 Pierre: The exit criteria is clear - just 2 implementations, without qualifying what kind of 14:24:45 .. implementations. I'm trying to understand what were the exact concerns of the Director. 14:24:53 .. Moving the goalposts at this point is unreasonable. 14:25:09 Glenn: Before we dive into this, I don't think we're depending on what the Director is 14:25:20 .. worried about. We have a pass on presentation in TTPE for those two tests and I think 14:25:35 .. the ttval column will be ticked. Neither ttval or TTPE make use of schema only validators 14:25:42 .. anyway so that concern is not applicable. 14:35:27 group: [discussion of the minimum requirements for demonstrating that each test has 14:35:30 .. passed] 14:39:46 Pierre: Note that changes to TTML1 text are not in the test suite for TTML2, because we 14:39:52 .. will not test them twice. 14:40:04 Glenn: Yes, the TTML1 text changes are matched in TTML2, deliberately. 14:40:41 Nigel: As set out above we effectively have 14 days from today to complete the implementation 14:40:51 .. report. Is there any reason we would not be able to do that? 14:41:09 group: [no reason to say no] 14:41:45 Topic: TTML1 Issues and Pull Requests 14:41:56 Nigel: There are no issues or pull requests marked for the agenda. 14:42:16 .. Just want to call out that pull request #367 is for the PR version. I knocked it together 14:42:36 .. yesterday to be able to get the CfC out while America was asleep. So please do review 14:42:42 .. the changes made there and the SoTD in particular. 14:43:25 Pierre: Looks good, I'm just merging in the CR exit criteria tests. Thanks for doing that. 14:43:27 Nigel: No problem. 14:43:37 Topic: TTML2 Implementation Report 14:44:16 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gtUAV0r4Zd1NUSEcFclBqOrk41pOyaOTfaLxc7boBeQ/edit#gid=0 14:44:23 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/TTML2ImplementationReport TTML2 Implementation Report wiki page 14:44:38 Nigel: I see Glenn just posted the Google spreadsheet that we're using as a work in progress 14:44:43 .. Thanks for that. 14:45:35 .. The #T column colour code shows if we are passing or failing on CR exit criteria. 14:45:54 .. There are a few of those. 14:46:07 Glenn: The one that have yellow in the TTPE column, I'll be taking the yellow out and those 14:46:22 .. will all be turning into normal Xs so that will cause those items to be green on the #T 14:46:34 .. column, which is my final flag for passing the exit criteria at this point. 14:46:47 .. I've started updating the total numbers and the numbers on the right side because ther 14:46:50 s/er/ere 14:47:06 .. have been some changes in the IRT Subcheck column and the NFLX-V column where 14:47:18 .. previously an X was reported and now it is an S which is described in the readme file 14:47:23 .. of the repository. 14:47:37 .. S means "strictly passes", i.e. does not produce any false negative on validity tests. 14:47:56 .. F means "fully passes", i.e. S but also does not fail to report any invalidity on the invalidity tests, 14:48:04 .. so there are no false positive tests on the invalidity. 14:48:19 .. I am counting only those marked F and discounting S as equivalent to "partial" at this 14:48:30 .. point. I don't think there will be an issue from doing this. I need to update the totals 14:48:38 .. to make sure they reflect the change to S on some of those entries. 14:48:55 .. The reason I'm fairly confident that there's not going to be an issue there is that TTV 14:49:14 .. reports F on all entries and ttval reports F on most except for a few like audio features, 14:49:19 .. luminanceGain and disparity. 14:49:35 .. That basically leaves unresolved in my mind the issue you posted Nigel on the audio 14:49:44 .. features and whether or not we are going to be able to check all those off. 14:49:56 .. There were a few that you feel may need to come out because you can't report a 14:50:02 .. positive implementation on those, right? 14:50:09 Nigel: Yes, here's an update on the audio features. 14:50:24 .. First, I've just opened a pull request, just before this meeting, adding a set of audio tests 14:50:44 .. including all the audio styling attributes and applying them to p, span, audio and animate 14:51:09 .. elements, so that should assist with demonstrating those features, especially if they 14:51:12 .. pass validation. 14:51:25 .. If anyone can test them for validity that would be helpful. 14:51:39 Glenn: I will run those through the validator. I might need to add a Wave format validator. 14:52:39 Nigel: We don't need to validate the WAV file format. 14:52:55 Glenn: Unfortunately the way TTV works I may need to add a simple validator to check 14:53:02 .. that a WAV file is ok. 14:53:06 Nigel: Thank you. 14:53:56 .. The next part of the update is regarding implementation itself. 14:54:11 .. I have good news in the sense that I've managed to steer the oil tanker of the BBC to 14:54:22 q+ 14:54:26 .. apply some development effort to completing this, which should be complete by Sep 21 14:54:36 .. which is within the timescales we have to work in. 14:55:30 ack c 14:57:17 Cyril: Quick update on TTML1 3rd Ed - we have an implementation that passes the two 14:57:23 .. value font size presentation test. 14:57:31 group: [general happiness] 14:58:32 Nigel: Back to the audio feature implementation. 14:58:58 .. I expect our implementation to pass on pan, gain, speak and pitch. 14:59:09 .. I haven't created an embedded audio test, but if time allows we will try to implement it. 14:59:38 .. We will try to implement #embedded-audio. 14:59:53 Pierre: Should we prepare a pull request that removes those features in case we don't 15:00:09 .. pass the CR exit criteria for those features? 15:00:31 Glenn: I can prepare a pull request but would rather wait until 22nd to do that. 15:00:37 Nigel: Yes, we should have finished by the 21st. 15:00:43 Pierre: Works for me. 15:01:40 Nigel: We need to get any pull requests merged during the CfC period, so we should aim 15:01:51 .. to merge such a pull request before the end of the CfC period. 15:02:11 .. Also I want to point out that in general we want specs to be stable during CfC but in 15:02:25 .. this case, anticipating the potential change, I flagged it as a possibility in the CfC. 15:03:56 Nigel: I would like to remove #embedded-audio, #gain and #pan from #audio-speech 15:04:08 .. regardless of what happens because they are not required to support text to speech. 15:04:15 Glenn: I agree because the others can be mixed in. 15:05:51 Nigel: Additional motivation for doing this is that they cannot all be implemented on the 15:05:58 .. same individual content element right now. 15:06:17 Topic: Audio related feature changes ttml2#990 15:06:22 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/990 15:06:34 Nigel: Summarising discussion before we hit this agenda topic, 15:06:48 .. Glenn to prepare pull request removing #embedded-audio, #gain and #pan from #audio-speech 15:07:39 .. I'd like to change #embedded-audio to #audio in #audio-description. 15:07:53 Glenn: I'm happy to do that, especially if it's a barrier to getting the spec out the door. 15:07:57 Nigel: I think it probably will be. 15:08:13 Glenn: That leaves the question if there will be a demonstration of #embedded-audio 15:08:38 .. If you do implement #embedded-audio should we leave them in #audio-speech? 15:08:42 Nigel: No, still remove them please. 15:08:46 Glenn: I'm okay with that. 15:08:51 tm has joined #tt 15:09:04 .. That's changing the #audio-description and #audio-speech feature. 15:10:15 Nigel: I propose we leave #embedded-audio in for the time being and I will signal as soon 15:10:20 .. as I know if we will be able to do it. 15:10:30 Glenn: You also proposed removing #speech which I argued against. 15:10:46 .. I prefer to leave it in. I know you suggested signalling it indirectly through #speak 15:10:54 .. which is possible but I don't like the indirection. 15:10:58 Nigel: I think it's more direct. 15:13:49 Glenn: There's a corner case for transformation processing, does #speak imply that a 15:14:03 .. text to speech processor is required for a transformation processor? 15:15:33 Nigel: I would scope the requirement for a speech processor to presentation semantics of #speak. 15:15:57 .. Put it this way, we don't have a processor feature for a font rasteriser, but any presentation 15:16:07 .. processor needs one, for visual presentation of text. 15:16:22 Glenn: That's true, but that feels like a comment for a CR change rather than a change to 15:16:31 .. make now. If this feature does no harm we should leave it in. 15:16:39 Nigel: That's acceptable, but not ideal. 15:17:47 Nigel: Should we open a pull request now making the changes we've agreed to, and then 15:17:55 .. another to make any other changes needed? 15:18:02 Glenn: Yes I would prefer to do that. 15:19:08 RESOLUTION: @skynavga to change #embedded-audio to #audio in #audio-description 15:19:30 RESOLUTION: @skynavga to remove #embedded-audio, #gain and #pan from #audio-speech 15:22:43 Glenn: Note the text in 9.3.1 that connects the output of a speech synthesis processor 15:23:28 .. to the web audio input. 15:25:43 SUMMARY: If #embedded-audio is unlikely to be implemented, consider removing later; Nigel to inform the group if this is going to be the case by 21st September. 15:26:34 Topic: Change to PR status. ttml2#999 15:26:38 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/999 15:26:55 Glenn: I fixed the pubrules issue so please re-review. 15:27:55 Nigel: Note that this (build) branch is the one the CfC points at. 15:28:01 Glenn: I'd prefer to merge it. 15:28:21 Nigel: Merging it means the ED gives the impression that we have moved to PR already. 15:28:37 Pierre: It's an editorial decision. Something else to consider is that for substantive changes 15:28:49 .. merge them into master and then merge that back into the proposed rec branch, so 15:29:03 .. the ED is always synced and the PR branch has the substantive text. 15:29:17 Glenn: I understand but have not done that practice so far and do not with to change. 15:29:22 .. It's not a bad idea. 15:29:39 .. The only intent with this pull request is to get to PR, not to bless the branch as a review 15:29:48 .. branch. Since it's already out I can't change that now. 15:30:23 .. People looking at the ED might get confused. 15:31:24 Nigel: I'm concerned with confusion also, in case someone outside the WG thinks the spec 15:31:35 .. has already been transitioned to PR when they look at the ED. 15:31:48 .. This doesn't really matter, we've done it both ways for different specs. 15:32:16 Topic: IMSC 1.1 Implementation Report 15:33:06 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_1_Implementation_Report IMSC 1.1 Implementation Report 15:33:46 Nigel: At the moment all additional features that were not in IMSC 1.0.1 but which are in 15:34:00 .. IMSC 1.1 are also introduced as new features into TTML2, right? 15:34:06 Pierre: Yes 15:34:21 Nigel: Therefore as noted in the IR there are no additional tests. 15:34:40 .. And if we meet the CR Exit Criteria for TTML2 then we also meet them for IMSC 1.1. 15:36:24 Topic: IMSC 1.1 Issues and Pull Requests 15:36:38 Nigel: We have two open pull requests, one being the PR prep branch pull request, 15:36:54 .. and the other being a tidy-up opened an hour ago. 15:37:04 .. Does that tidy-up address all the open issues? 15:37:18 Pierre: Yes, and Nigel's private email to me about line breaks, purely editorial. 15:37:33 Nigel: Thank you. 15:39:03 .. That was about words being moved from one line to another without any change in text. 15:39:18 Pierre: If you could review that pull request as early as possible that would be great - it will 15:39:23 .. clean up the PR branch. 15:39:37 Nigel: Thank you, I'll certainly take a look - happy for others too also, of course. 15:40:00 .. Anything else on IMSC 1.1? 15:40:26 Pierre: One thing, more an FYI than a fatal issue. There are two tests that will be used on 15:40:46 .. the TTML2 IR that are not in the TTML2 test repo, for disparity and luminanceGain. 15:41:00 Glenn: That's not true. If there are tests in IMSC intended to be used by TTML2 I'm not aware 15:41:12 .. of them. I have tests for both disparity and luminanceGain in the TTML2 test suite at 15:41:21 .. this point. Those are the official ones at this point as far as I'm concerned. 15:41:35 .. A number of the tests in the TTML2 tests repository are derived from tests that were in 15:41:49 .. the IMSC 1.1 test suite and I've marked those in the XML comments. 15:42:06 Pierre: There are no TTML2 tests for luminanceGain and disparity in ttml2-tests now. I 15:42:08 .. just searched. 15:42:15 Glenn: [looks for them] 15:43:39 Nigel: I found 10 results searching for luminanceGain. 15:43:44 Pierre: There are no presentation tests. 15:44:08 Glenn: That's correct. We should put some in there just like Nigel submitted for audio, 15:44:21 .. if you would like to add them to the presentation tests then we can put them in there. 15:44:26 Pierre: I sent them in an email to you. 15:44:32 Glenn: I will look for those. 15:44:46 Pierre: Unless they are broken please don't change them and use them as is. 15:44:53 Glenn: I may remove the IMSC profile. 15:44:56 Pierre: Yes, that's fine. 15:45:24 .. Can we approve the IMSC 1.1 tests pull request? 15:45:50 Topic: IMSC 1.1 tests imsc-tests#67 15:45:56 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-tests/pull/67 15:46:36 Nigel: What's the scope of these? 15:46:50 Pierre: They are intended to cover TTML2 features that are present in IMSC 1.1 that were 15:47:06 .. not present in IMSC 1.0.1. They are not intended to be CR exit criteria tests, but tests 15:47:24 .. to assist implementers. There are source files and PNG renders, following exactly the 15:47:29 .. same pattern as the IMSC 1 tests. 15:47:36 Nigel: Sounds good to me. 15:47:50 .. I've approved them so they can be merged. 15:48:08 .. Thanks for those. 15:48:20 .. This is a really good resource. 15:48:33 Pierre: It's to help implementers check their implementations are behaving correctly. 15:49:32 Topic: IMSC vNext Requirements 15:49:58 Nigel: We said we would publish after resolving the open issues. 15:50:03 .. Let's look at the status... 15:50:23 .. We have no open pull requests and the only open issue is marked for IMSCvNext, i.e. 15:50:29 .. later than IMSC 1.1. 15:50:36 .. So we can now publish as a WG Note. 15:50:49 .. Thierry, what do we have to do to publish as a Note? 15:50:55 Thierry: Just let me know and I can publish it. 15:51:10 Nigel: Okay, we have a resolution, it's completed, please could you publish it as a Note? 15:51:26 Thierry: OK, yes, sure. 15:51:28 Nigel: Thank you! 15:52:11 Topic: Meeting Close 15:52:30 Nigel: We've covered everything on our agenda, so thank you everyone, meet same time 15:52:37 .. next week. [adjourns meeting] 15:52:41 rrsagent, make minutes 15:52:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:06:34 atai2 has left #tt 16:34:48 s/Glenn: Review CR exit criteria/Glenn: Please could we review the CR exit criteria? 16:35:19 s/presentation engine implementations and there/presentation engine implementation and there 16:43:00 rrsagent, make minutes 16:43:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:43:51 s/TTML spes timeline/TTML specs timeline 16:43:53 rrsagent, make minutes 16:43:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:44:14 scribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final 16:44:15 rrsagent, make minutes 16:44:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:23:06 Zakim has left #tt