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15:30:58 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:30:58 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:30:58 <ivan> Chair: liisamk
15:30:58 <ivan> Date: 2018-09-11
15:30:58 <ivan> Regrets+ laudrain, tzviya
15:30:58 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Sep/0000.html
15:30:59 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-09-11: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2018Sep/0000.html
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16:00:57 <Dan_Sanicola> present+
16:01:12 <ivan_> present+
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16:01:20 <Rachel> present+
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16:01:26 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:01:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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16:01:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> Has the GTM started? I'm in a hotel in the UK and need to use the computer audio
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16:03:04 <ivan_> present+ Teenya
16:03:07 <Karen> scribe: Karen
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16:03:14 <ivan_> scribenick: karen
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16:03:59 <ivan_> Topic: EPUB3 review
16:04:11 <Karen> Topic: EPUB Community Review
16:04:22 <Karen> Dave: We have been getting updates; 23 commits to repository
16:04:26 <Karen> ...we are making progress
16:04:32 <Karen> Liisa: How long is this review period?
16:04:34 <Avneesh> present+
16:04:38 <Karen> Dave: I think more or less...
16:04:48 <Karen> Rachel: It formally ended, but we are waiting for people to come back to us
16:04:57 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
16:05:00 <Karen> BillK: can you define the review period?
16:05:03 <garth> present+ Garth
16:05:07 <JulieBlair> present+
16:05:09 <Karen> Dave: things should settle by end of the month
16:05:15 <ivan_> present+ daihei
16:05:22 <ivan_> present+ leslie
16:05:23 <Karen> ...and get feedback; not massive deadline, but we are pretty far ahead
16:05:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/can you define/it was an assigned-
16:05:39 <Teenya> present+
16:05:43 <Karen> Liisa: Tzviya is out due to holiday
16:05:57 <Karen> ...do we have an update on EPUB Checker and its development?
16:06:02 <Karen> ...Rachel, George?
16:06:04 <ivan_> Topic: epubcheck
16:06:16 <Karen> Liisa: We have contracted with Daisy to do the work and we are in process of getting the fundraising site going
16:06:26 <Karen> ...we have worked out also with Daisy also to manage the funds and intake
16:06:38 <Karen> ...we are working on agreement between us to make sure it's done safely, correctly
16:06:45 <Karen> ...we're about a week or so out from having that live
16:07:05 <Karen> ...We would start development as soon as there are enough funds available committed to cover the first page
16:07:10 <Karen> ...either funds received or invoiced
16:07:20 <Karen> George: As soon as we have confidence that funds are on their way in
16:07:28 <Karen> ...it takes a while for some companies to actually deliver the money
16:07:36 <Karen> ...as long as we have confidence we can start the work
16:07:41 <Karen> ...I tested the site this morning
16:07:54 <Julian_Calderazi> Julian_Calderazi has joined #pbg
16:08:01 <Karen> Liisa: you tested this morning and things worked well?
16:08:06 <Karen> George: yes, it was working this morning
16:08:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> I'm hear Heathrow. I better mute. :)
16:08:10 <ivan_> The not-yet-fully-final landing page is at: https://www.w3.org/publishing/epubcheck_fundraising
16:08:11 <Julian_Calderazi> present+
16:08:22 <Karen> ...the early commitment people we will likely get started
16:08:35 <Karen> ...Important to point out that distribution of funds will be approved by the SC sub-committee
16:08:40 <Karen> ...and make sure the deliverable are there
16:08:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/hear/near
16:08:50 <Karen> ...we will have the checks and balances in place to manage the contract
16:09:11 <Karen> Liisa: Luc has volunteered to lead this. In his absence Tzviya is leading. Today we happen to be without both of them
16:09:19 <Karen> ...Any questions on EPUB Check and the fundraising
16:09:20 <ivan_> q+
16:09:23 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:09:29 <Karen> Ivan: Maybe worth noting
16:09:38 <Karen> ...the plan is Tzviya who will make a blog post
16:09:47 <Karen> ...and there will be more push once the page is live and operational
16:09:55 <Karen> Liisa: that's a good note to make
16:10:06 <ivan_> present+ JulieBlair
16:10:09 <Karen> ...Folks here in the group should think about their networks and how we can help to promote this
16:10:13 <Karen> ...any other questions?
16:10:22 <ivan_> present+ rkwright
16:10:30 <Karen> ...ok
16:10:37 <Karen> ...Last time when we met, we were in the Asian time slot
16:10:47 <Karen> ...we talked about the fact that people should review the EPUB Check requirements
16:10:52 <Karen> ...Do people know they can and should do that?
16:10:57 <Karen> ...any help needed there?
16:11:02 <Karen> ...What is the feeling about all this?
16:11:05 <rkwright> I am willing to review the issues
16:11:17 <Julian_Calderazi> me too Liisa
16:11:21 <Julian_Calderazi> I'll take a look this week
16:11:23 <Karen> Liisa: Thank you, Ric for saying you will review
16:11:26 <Karen> ...and thank you, Julie
16:11:43 <Karen> ...Anyone who feels there needs to be some non-technical translation of those issues, or is everyone ok reviewing as is?
16:11:45 <Julian_Calderazi> (ok for me)
16:11:56 <rkwright> I'm OK with it "natural"
16:12:04 <Karen> ...OK
16:12:17 <Karen> ...If you have other thoughts you don't want to share in public forum, please do so
16:12:21 <Karen> Topic: TPAC
16:12:24 <dauwhe> +1
16:12:24 <Rachel> +1 TPAC
16:12:26 <garth> +1
16:12:26 <ivan_> +1
16:12:29 <rkwright> 0 - I am not
16:12:29 <Karen> Lissa: Who is going? Please note in irc
16:12:29 <Avneesh> +1
16:12:30 <Karen> +1
16:12:33 <Karen> George +1
16:12:34 <garth> Geroge +1
16:12:36 <Julian_Calderazi> -1
16:12:38 <liisamk> +1
16:12:40 <ivan_> s/Lissa/Liisa/
16:12:55 <Karen> Liisa: Sounds like a good group of us are going
16:12:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> 0
16:13:01 <Karen> ...We will send something out to encourage others
16:13:10 <Karen> ...We have been put on the agenda for an hour for the Working Group meeting
16:13:14 <Karen> ...what do we want to talk about?
16:13:15 <dauwhe> q+
16:13:16 <Karen> ...Ideas?
16:13:19 <garth> q+
16:13:19 <ivan_> q+
16:13:20 <Karen> ack Dave
16:13:26 <garth> q?
16:13:33 <ivan_> q-
16:13:35 <Karen> Dave: I think this would be a good time to start talking about the business implications of Web Publications
16:13:38 <garth> q?
16:13:43 <Karen> ...and how publishers might want to use Web Publications
16:13:48 <Karen> ack Garth
16:13:54 <ivan_> q+
16:13:55 <Karen> Garth: Yes, queue is acting weird....yes
16:14:01 <Karen> ...certainly second Dave's comment
16:14:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pbg
16:14:09 <Karen> ...I think also Business Group folks
16:14:13 <Karen> ...who are not participating in the WG
16:14:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:14:25 <Karen> ...would be good to come to a cursory understanding of the progress made there; the WP draft
16:14:28 <Karen> ...some discussion of EPUB4
16:14:38 <Karen> ...come with opinions regarding the utility of what has been done so far
16:14:43 <Karen> ...to various business cases
16:14:52 <Karen> ...and suggestions for prioritizing our going forward efforts
16:15:03 <Karen> ...i am interested in...we have been taking a WP first
16:15:09 <Karen> ...setting bounds of a Web Publication
16:15:09 <ivan_> q-
16:15:14 <Karen> ...is that the right direction first
16:15:21 <dauwhe> q+
16:15:23 <Karen> ...or should we look at EPUB4 and how we would package it
16:15:32 <Karen> ...WP v EPUB4 is discussion I would be interested in
16:15:35 <Karen> Liisa: Ok
16:15:39 <Karen> ack BillK
16:16:07 <Karen> BillK: One thing I think might be useful for BG members
16:16:17 <Karen> ...is a bullet list version of what is different between WP and EPUB
16:16:21 <Karen> ...for some it will be hard
16:16:23 <Karen> ...to say
16:16:37 <Karen> ...they won't read the spec and have a hard time speculating whether that will be useful to me
16:16:42 <ivan_> +1 to Bill_Kasdorf
16:16:43 <Karen> ...maybe some kind of cheat sheet would be useful
16:16:46 <Karen> +1
16:16:51 <Karen> Liisa: That's a good point, Bill
16:16:53 <Karen> ack Dave
16:16:58 <ivan_> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:17:10 <Karen> Dave: as we talk about EPUB4 and WP relationship, also EPUB3 relationship
16:17:18 <Karen> ...what makes sense in near- and future term
16:17:27 <Karen> ...relationship between all those things is fairly unclear
16:17:30 <Karen> Liisa: yes, I agree
16:17:41 <Karen> ...To Bill's point, it's hard to focus; make it simple and easy to digest
16:17:49 <Karen> BillK: I was referring to EPUB3 differences
16:18:00 <Karen> ...EPUB4 will be more like EPUB3
16:18:15 <Karen> Liisa: We have to understand the upgrade and compatibility areas
16:18:19 <Karen> Garth: that is a good topic
16:18:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/EPUB 4 will be more like EPUB3/EPUB 4 may be more like WP than EPUB 3
16:18:35 <Karen> Liisa: Anyone else have topics to talk about while we are in france
16:18:36 <ivan_> q+
16:18:41 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
16:18:42 <Karen> ack Dave
16:18:48 <Karen> Dave: all done
16:18:51 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:19:11 <Karen> George: can I speak?
16:19:13 <ivan_> q+
16:19:15 <Karen> ...One of things I am interested in
16:19:19 <Karen> ...I think of this in education
16:19:31 <Karen> ...where EPUBs are being used widely and LMSes are being used as well
16:19:39 <Karen> ...many times EPUBs are being ingested into LMS systems
16:19:51 <Karen> ...or things that kind of look like Web Publications are being digested in LMS
16:20:06 <Karen> ...I don't have a clear idea of how different publications integrate with different LMS systems and different market models
16:20:15 <Karen> ...Seems like this is on the cusp of EPUB and Web Publications
16:20:20 <Karen> ...Not sure if it's something we can discuss
16:20:32 <Karen> ...Also we have been doing a lot of Accessibility testing on EPUB and various reading apps
16:20:42 <Karen> ...Feel like we should be doing same thing within their counterpart, the LMS
16:20:58 <Karen> Liisa: George, I think those are really good points
16:21:10 <Karen> ...from a publisher's perspective it's hard to test
16:21:16 <Karen> ...what will happen with those systems
16:21:17 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:21:23 <Karen> Ivan: With all my respect to EPUB
16:21:38 <Karen> ...which should also be discussing and hearing about those areas of publishing that did not pick up EPUB for various reasons
16:21:56 <Karen> ...The hope we have from technical side is that there will be unifying elements
16:22:06 <Karen> ...Scholarly, journal have not picked up so much on EPUB
16:22:14 <Karen> ...we don't want to concentrate only on EPUB v Web Publications
16:22:18 <Karen> ...another area that has come to the fore
16:22:30 <Karen> ...is the realization that Audio Books fit the Web Publications work perfectly
16:22:41 <Karen> ...there is a task force now looking at the few small things to make it better
16:22:54 <Karen> ...we have to be careful not to lose sight of publications that are not based on EPUB today
16:22:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Ivan
16:23:02 <Karen> ...but we as WG need feedback to those areas; very much so
16:23:20 <Karen> Liisa: Any other ideas?
16:23:22 <Karen> q+
16:23:38 <Julian_Calderazi> Us it going to be arpesentation or a discussion?
16:23:58 <Avneesh> A practical thing: Is 1 hour enough for all these business discussion in TPAC?
16:24:00 <Karen> ack Karen
16:24:14 <Karen> Karen: I would like to hear a report on the Tokyo Publishing Workshop at TPAC
16:24:18 <Karen> Dave: Who is going?
16:24:22 <Karen> Ivan: me, you, Luc, Laurent
16:24:22 <Daihei> I will, Daihei
16:24:43 <Karen> Ivan: Makoto of course
16:24:47 <Karen> ...who is on both groups
16:24:50 <Karen> ...I think that is it
16:24:57 <Karen> ...quite a few people from the Pub BG
16:25:20 <Karen> ...In two weeks from now there will be a call and a first impression can be given
16:25:29 <Karen> Liisa: Yes, we will definitely have it on the agenda in two weeks
16:25:43 <Karen> ...people should continue to think about what we can accomplish when we are together
16:25:51 <Karen> ...what to work on, what we can accomplish, how to prepare
16:25:54 <ivan_> q+
16:25:56 <Karen> Ivan: Can I add one more thing
16:26:03 <Karen> ...one of the problems I have had
16:26:04 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:26:08 <Karen> Ivan: The Business Group
16:26:14 <Karen> ...has not really looked over our shoulders
16:26:27 <Karen> ...maybe a discussion on how to have more regular contact between the two groups
16:26:34 <Karen> ...it should not be once a year at TPAC kind of thing
16:26:39 <Karen> ...Many people on WGs are techies
16:26:45 <Karen> ...which is good and bad at same time
16:27:08 <Karen> ...It's good to have feedbacks regularly from the Business Group and we have not had that. We should discuss how we can have that after TPAC
16:27:12 <Karen> Liisa: That's a great point, Ivan
16:27:23 <Karen> Dave: you can look over the shoulders of the community group
16:27:31 <Karen> Liisa: Lots of shoulder looking!
16:27:35 <Karen> ...Need to be tall :)
16:27:50 <Karen> Liisa: any more comments before we move on?
16:28:01 <Karen> ...ok
16:28:05 <ivan_> Topic: Conferences
16:28:13 <Karen> ...a handful of us got into a conversation on conferences
16:28:24 <Karen> ...and whether there would be interest in the BG picking up conferences
16:28:34 <Karen> ...there was a feeling that there were already a lot of conferences out there
16:28:45 <Karen> ...Would it be helpful to just start by collating a list of the various EPUB conferences
16:28:49 <Karen> Ivan: EPUB or Publishing?
16:28:52 <Karen> Liisa: Publishing
16:28:59 <Karen> ...I was thinking EPUB, thinking about standards
16:29:10 <Karen> ...we can broaden it to publishing more broadly and what segments and parts
16:29:17 <Karen> ...Good example is DBW
16:29:26 <Karen> ...a number of people used to attend the EPUB tracks
16:29:35 <Karen> ...but this season it has shifted and has become more marketing oriented
16:29:41 <Karen> George: marketing is good
16:29:44 <Karen> Liisa: totally
16:29:53 <Karen> +1 collate and annotate list
16:30:02 <Julian_Calderazi> I'll collaborate with a list in LatAm
16:30:04 <Karen> Liisa: Are people interested in conferences to learn things and share things
16:30:20 <Karen> ...I was thinking that this Fall marks 20 years for eBooks at PRH
16:30:32 <Karen> ...it's not all solved, but it's no longer the Wild West Frontier to figure out
16:30:46 <Karen> ...Karen, you agree
16:30:58 <Karen> ...Julian, you have offered to do a list for LatAm
16:31:03 <Karen> George: Library space
16:31:15 <Karen> ...and we regularly present at Accessibility conferences
16:31:26 <Karen> ...and best practices and standards for Accessibility in those places
16:31:33 <Karen> ...It is great when we see others carrying the general message
16:31:38 <Karen> ...not just their own corporate message
16:31:44 <Karen> ...but saying good things about the standard and W3C
16:31:51 <Karen> ...working collaboratively to build the marketplace
16:32:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:32:23 <Karen> Liisa: if nothing else, collaborating on the conferences helps us keep clear on what are the events and also be clear on who could represent us and carry our messages to various segments
16:32:25 <Karen> ack BillK
16:32:36 <Karen> Bill: I go to a lot of non-book conferences [names]
16:32:42 <Karen> ...I do an update at STM every year
16:32:48 <Karen> ...but not the same as a W3C person
16:32:53 <Karen> ...IPTC is the news industry people
16:33:02 <Karen> ...getting to IVan's point thinking beyond eBooks
16:33:11 <Karen> ...folks like AP, TR, Bloomberg, etc.
16:33:18 <Karen> ...who was your colleague who spoke, Ivan?
16:33:41 <Karen> BillK: those kinds of organizations
16:33:47 <Karen> ...something more formal for W3C would be good
16:33:54 <Karen> ...SSP meeting is end of May or June
16:33:56 <Karen> q+
16:34:02 <Karen> ...program is locked in by January I think
16:34:04 <ivan_> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:34:19 <Karen> ...always possibility of trying to get onto the program
16:34:31 <Karen> ...STM is more of a seminar/workshop and I always speak at that
16:34:38 <Karen> ...not like the word isn't getting out
16:34:44 <Karen> ...but not being done in a W3C branded way
16:34:49 <ivan_> ack Karen
16:35:55 <ivan_> +1 to Karen
16:36:03 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
16:36:32 <Karen> Karen: would be good to use W3C Publishing landing page as place for the various publishing segments and their conference calendars
16:36:33 <ivan_> q+
16:36:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:36:40 <Karen> Liisa: Would be good to figure out where to anchor this conversation
16:36:42 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:36:55 <Karen> Ivan: Isn't there a public calendar we can put in on our page?
16:37:03 <Karen> ...or federate several of those?
16:37:12 <Karen> Liisa: I honestly don't know of anyone. Billk?
16:37:16 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:37:24 <Karen> BillK: these sectors are siloed
16:37:31 <Karen> ...scholarly doesn't know about @
16:37:38 <Karen> Ivan: Is it possible to integrate more those silos
16:37:45 <Karen> ...SSP does a good job of that in scholarly
16:37:54 <Karen> ...there are organizations Rachel could speak to in education that probably do that
16:38:18 <Karen> Ivan: If there are seeds of any kinds that come from different segments, the rest is just putting up code on our page
16:38:28 <Karen> BillK: those organizations would welcome that
16:38:45 <Karen> Ivan: We should try to get those sector-specific feeds
16:38:50 <Karen> Liisa: See if they exist
16:38:54 <Karen> s/seeds/feeds
16:39:00 <Karen> BillK: I can work with Karen on some of them
16:39:01 <Karen> +1
16:39:15 <Karen> action: BillK, Karen and Liisa, pluse Julian to work on these lists
16:39:31 <Karen> Liisa: George, would be good to figure out Accessibility events
16:39:36 <Karen> George: I don't know of any feeds
16:39:49 <Karen> ...at DAISY we keep a calendar about year out of the important Accessibility conferences
16:39:53 <Karen> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:39:54 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/participate/eventscal.html
16:40:01 <ivan_> q+
16:40:05 <Karen> BillK: Lots of library conferences that also all over Web technologies
16:40:09 <Karen> Liisa: a great point
16:40:11 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:40:17 <Karen> Ivan: related to Libraries
16:40:28 <Karen> ...we have begun speaking to the archival organizations
16:40:39 <Karen> ...there is some early interest in setting up a workshop some time next year
16:40:47 <Karen> ...they have their own problems
16:41:01 <Karen> ...like Library of Congress, European libraries
16:41:05 <Karen> ...that's a different community
16:41:10 <Karen> Liisa: We can continue with this by email
16:41:12 <Karen> ...let's continue
16:41:18 <Karen> Topic: ?
16:41:21 <ivan_> Topic: Discussions on new requirements
16:41:39 <Karen> Liisa: Desire to ensure this image and this text will always be on the same page
16:41:45 <Karen> ...we have often tried to solve that
16:41:51 <Karen> ...but almost nobody supports it
16:41:55 <ivan_> Subtopic: anchor image and text
16:41:57 <Julian_Calderazi> sorry Liisa
16:41:58 <dauwhe> q+
16:42:01 <Julian_Calderazi> you tried to fix that with what?
16:42:02 <Karen> ...is this just my problem, or do other people have this issue, too?
16:42:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 very common issue
16:42:04 <Karen> ack Dave
16:42:11 <Karen> ack dauwhe
16:42:13 <JulieBlair> +1
16:42:21 <Karen> Dave: This is a complicated thing in web space
16:42:28 <Karen> ...don't know how much space you will have
16:42:36 <Karen> ...image is this big, not sure how much will fit on screen
16:42:46 <Karen> ...to make it a reality you have to figure out how to scale it
16:42:53 <Karen> ...captions staying with an image using flexbox
16:42:57 <Karen> Liisa: which is also not supported
16:43:03 <Karen> Dave: widely supported on the web anyway
16:43:13 <Karen> ...most of web solutions become problematic in EPUB reading system
16:43:31 <Karen> ...because of the pagination and user personalization challenges; they are re-writing both the mark-up and the CSS
16:43:34 <Karen> ...makes it tricky
16:43:54 <ivan_> q+
16:43:56 <Karen> ...it's an interesting question: I don't have a solution but would like to talk to people about it
16:44:02 <Karen> Liisa: next week in Japan?
16:44:04 <Karen> Dave: yes
16:44:05 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:44:09 <Karen> Ivan: Question to Dave
16:44:14 <Karen> ...we know the pagination story
16:44:18 <Karen> ...and there are promises to do it
16:44:25 <Karen> ...with all these new CSS, Houdini approaches
16:44:39 <Karen> ...would that make combination of pagination and CSS solutions with black boxes work?
16:44:54 <Karen> Dave: At this point, I don't know enough about how things like Flexbox and Grid interact with fragmentation
16:45:00 <Karen> Ivan: If you don't know, nobody does
16:45:08 <rkwright> q+
16:45:09 <Karen> Dave: probably Fantasai knows, and we can ask her
16:45:15 <Karen> ack rkwright
16:45:26 <Karen> Ric: Dave, are there some samples that you have that use grids that don't work?
16:45:33 <Karen> ...I use grids a lot on web but not on EPUB
16:45:41 <Karen> Dave: I have EPUB flexbox examples that work
16:45:46 <Karen> ...for example in Readium which is lovely
16:45:52 <Karen> ...yes, I have not tried much with grid
16:45:59 <Karen> Ric: I'll have a look on it on my own
16:46:22 <Karen> Dave: there is also this more general question of taking other elements like side notes
16:46:26 <Karen> ...we can sort of do with floats
16:46:30 <Karen> ...it does get tricky
16:46:47 <Karen> Liisa: I am just thinking about how we as content creators
16:46:54 <ivan_> q+
16:47:01 <Karen> ...help the reading system to understand when things have to stay together and when things can move around
16:47:10 <Karen> ...so pagination can be optimized for both the content and the reader
16:47:23 <Karen> Dave: I would love to have some examples that show people; this is what happens in our books that is terrible
16:47:27 <rkwright> +1 to Dave
16:47:27 <Karen> ...this is how it should be
16:47:39 <Karen> ...that goes a long way in showing people and getting advice in how it should be
16:47:46 <Karen> ...a few screen shots would be very helpful
16:47:58 <Karen> Liisa: yes, I think that's the kind of things this group could pull together
16:48:07 <Karen> Dave: I would be happy to get those and show to CSS
16:48:08 <Karen> ack Ivan
16:48:21 <Karen> Ivan: I am interested in how these flow back to core techs; the HTML and CSS
16:48:24 <Karen> ...the core reading systems
16:48:29 <Karen> ...eventually will use the core web engines
16:48:32 <Karen> ...that should be our goal
16:48:53 <Karen> ...eventually some of these things may lead to delegate someone to also go to CSS WG besides Dave
16:49:01 <Karen> ...certainly this group should be the mover for something like that
16:49:05 <Karen> Dave: Absolutely
16:49:05 <liisamk> q+
16:49:11 <Karen> ack Liisa
16:49:19 <Karen> Liisa: I think the thing we all have to mindful of
16:49:33 <Karen> ...is that some of these requirements come from conversations people are having about doing these things sooner v later
16:49:47 <Karen> ...may be reading system-specific clooges
16:49:53 <Karen> ...how do we deal with cart before the horse?
16:49:58 <Karen> Ivan: yes, I hear that
16:50:10 <Karen> Garth: Dave commented on constraining the image side
16:50:15 <Karen> ...that will help on some reading systems
16:50:19 <Karen> ...have image and captions
16:50:31 <Karen> ...and if reading system or pagination system gets in the way
16:50:40 <Karen> ...that is a bug to be filed with reading system vendor
16:50:45 <Karen> ...If you have page break inside a void
16:50:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/side/size
16:50:57 <Karen> ...any paginator cannot constrain image side on its own
16:51:03 <Karen> Liisa: thinking about not times of a caption
16:51:10 <Karen> ...see this in kids' chapter books
16:51:25 <Karen> ...important for them to associate a paragraph with text to a certain image
16:51:33 <Karen> ...make sure each page is text/image/image/text
16:51:43 <Karen> ...we will manage order of things by always putting image first
16:51:48 <Karen> ...we force a lot of white space
16:51:55 <Karen> Garth: white space is cheap in eBooks
16:52:03 <Karen> Liisa: true; just don't want to much of it
16:52:06 <Karen> ...Ok, moving on
16:52:09 <Karen> ...to related issue of this
16:52:23 <Karen> ...how do we get broader support for a mixture of fixed and reflow pages?
16:52:30 <Karen> Garth: Mixed in same flow of content?
16:52:32 <Karen> Liisa: yes
16:52:36 <rkwright> Supported in Readium already
16:52:39 <ivan_> Subtopic: broader support for mixed and fixed/refloat pages
16:52:42 <Karen> ...I want next systems to reflow
16:52:46 <Karen> Dave: some do that
16:52:51 <Karen> Liisa: I want all of them to do it
16:53:00 <Karen> Garth: Do your fixed items as in-spine SVG
16:53:11 <Karen> Dave: but we have reading systems that don't do well with SVG
16:53:19 <Karen> Garth: speaking for systems that don't like the mixture
16:53:34 <Karen> Dave: this is a problem; 10-20 years in we have not solved the problem
16:53:48 <Karen> ...to get reading systems to support everything we think they should support
16:53:53 <Karen> Ivan: Why don't they support SVG?
16:54:04 <Karen> ...web engines today do a reasonable job of rendering SVG?
16:54:14 <rkwright> q+
16:54:15 <Karen> Garth: some reading systems don't support in-spine SVG; we are not one of those
16:54:30 <Karen> Dave: Still some marketshare for non-web rendering engine reading based systems
16:54:34 <Karen> Ivan: Ok, that's the answer
16:54:43 <Karen> George: In our Accessibility testing we test for SVG
16:54:52 <Karen> ...testing for size without degradation of image quality
16:55:00 <Karen> ...is important to Accessibility people
16:55:13 <Karen> Ivan: That will be an interesting question for next week's workshop
16:55:18 <Karen> ack rkwright
16:55:23 <Karen> Ric: Kudos to Garth
16:55:36 <Karen> ...SVG is in spec; Readium supports, but it does not work that well
16:55:41 <Karen> ...I have never seen SVG in the spine
16:55:51 <Karen> Garth: not uncommon coming from Japanese content
16:55:59 <Karen> Ric: I would be interested to see some examples
16:56:05 <Karen> Ivan: Likely we'll see some next week
16:56:08 <Karen> Ric: Great
16:56:15 <Karen> ...underlying browsers support SVG pretty well
16:56:26 <Karen> ...but biggest problem is if they do local references to the URIs to gradients
16:56:31 <Karen> ...in some browser that does not work
16:56:39 <Karen> ...they lose the basis of how to link to it so the rendering is poor
16:56:57 <Karen> ...whoever wrote the SVG support in Adobe Illustrator; it often breaks in the browser engines
16:57:04 <Karen> ...sorry to get technical but wanted to throw it out
16:57:14 <Karen> Liisa: we have three minutes left
16:57:16 <ivan_> Topic: AOB
16:57:19 <Karen> ...anything else to talk about today?
16:57:47 <Karen> Liisa: For those going to Japan next week, we hope you have a great workshop
16:58:00 <Karen> ...for those not going, please think about what we want to accomplish for when we are all together in France
16:58:03 <Julian_Calderazi> you too all
16:58:04 <Karen> ...have a great day!
16:58:05 <ivan_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-pbg-minutes.html ivan_
16:58:05 <ivan_> zakim, bye
16:58:05 <ivan_> rrsagent, bye
16:58:05 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-pbg-actions.rdf :
16:58:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: BillK, Karen and Liisa, pluse Julian to work on these lists [1]
16:58:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-pbg-irc#T16-39-15
16:58:05 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
16:58:10 <Karen> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-pbg-minutes.html Karen