19:45:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwg
19:45:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-irc
19:45:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dxwg
19:45:16 <kcoyle> rrsagent, make logs public
19:45:27 <kcoyle> meeting: DXWG plenary
19:45:38 <kcoyle> chair: Peter Winstanley
19:50:26 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwg
19:55:58 <PWinstanley> present+
19:56:08 <PWinstanley> chair: PWinstanley
19:56:18 <PWinstanley> Meeting: DXWG Plenary
19:56:23 <PWinstanley> regrets+ Antoine Isaac
19:57:14 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
19:57:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:00:25 <ncar> ncar has joined #dxwg
20:01:24 <ncar> present+
20:02:03 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwg
20:03:29 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
20:05:00 <SimonCox> present+
20:05:38 <roba> roba has joined #dxwg
20:05:51 <ncar> scribenick: ncar
20:05:58 <kcoyle> present+
20:06:02 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwg
20:06:02 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg
20:06:07 <dsr> present+
20:06:09 <alejandra> present+
20:06:10 <ncar> trackbot, start telcon
20:06:13 <annette_g> present+
20:06:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:06:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:06:16 <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2018
20:06:24 <ncar> scribenick: ncar
20:06:32 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:06:39 <ncar> chair: PWinstanley
20:06:48 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #dxwg
20:06:55 <azaroth> present+ Rob_Sanderson
20:06:56 <ncar> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.09.11
20:08:02 <ncar> propose: accept minutes last meeting
20:08:06 <azaroth> +1
20:08:07 <roba> present+
20:08:08 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/2018/08/28-dxwg-minutes
20:08:08 <dsr> +1
20:08:08 <ncar> +1
20:08:20 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:08:20 <SimonCox> +1
20:08:28 <alejandra> +1
20:08:29 <roba> +1
20:08:29 <PWinstanley> +1
20:08:35 <annette_g> +1
20:08:38 <ncar> resolution: accept minutes last meeting
20:08:55 <ncar> topic: Checking Open Action items
20:09:13 <ncar> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open
20:11:35 <ncar> close: action-188
20:11:48 <ncar> discussed actions 86 & 163 - no change to either yet
20:12:02 <ncar> close action-188
20:12:03 <trackbot> Closed action-188.
20:12:18 <ncar> close action-110
20:12:18 <trackbot> Closed action-110.
20:12:54 <PWinstanley> Topic: report on DCAT WG
20:13:50 <PWinstanley> q?
20:13:59 <ncar> DaveBrowning reports the subgroup is close to the 2PWD
20:14:41 <ncar> topic: report on profile guidance WG
20:15:38 <ncar> ncar reported a series of changes had been made to the Guidance document
20:16:32 <PWinstanley> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/ucr/#ProfilesRequirements
20:16:34 <ncar> topic: how profileDesc fits into overall WG activities
20:16:51 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/ProfileRoundup
20:17:08 <ncar> PWinstanley - we have some use cases, we have a'roundup' documents with different proposals
20:17:44 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
20:17:51 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:17:53 <ncar> PWinstanley - we need structure of Guidance to be put out for wide discussion so the group as a whole can decide on work, e.g. whether profileDesc is a Rec, Note etc.
20:18:04 <ncar> q+
20:18:24 <AndreaPerego> s/PWinstanley -/PWinstanley: /
20:18:44 <ncar> DaveBrowning: we should ask the group as a whole via email
20:19:19 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:19:30 <ncar> PWinstanley: there is much work to be done if profileDesc is to become a Rec
20:20:43 <ncar> PWinstanley: profileDesc would need to be supported by the work currently in GitHub & ncar has bullet pointed work in docs to indicate this & kcoyle has summarised work in wiki pages
20:20:52 <roba> q+
20:21:14 <ncar> PWinstanley: people seem hesitant to discuss document structure with people still wanting another look
20:21:36 <ncar> PWinstanley: I think we can make headway today (i.e. not delaying)
20:22:35 <azaroth> q+ to discuss non editorial requirements of Rec such as testing
20:22:41 <ncar> PWinstanley: our charter says we can work on profiling but we need to make decisions about how to proceed with specifics regarding proposals
20:23:02 <ncar> PWinstanley: profileDesc proposal needs to indicate the gap it is filling
20:23:08 <ncar> q?
20:23:11 <annette_g> q+
20:23:19 <roba> q-
20:23:29 <PWinstanley> ack ncar
20:24:42 <PWinstanley> ack AndreaPerego
20:25:01 <ncar> ncar: there is a need for profileDesc - his opinion
20:25:32 <ncar> AndreaPerego: for a Rec, we need 2 independent implementations, can we do this?
20:25:33 <ncar> q+
20:26:24 <ncar> AndreaPerego: risk is if we identify gap and propose solutions, will we be able to implement in time for WG?
20:26:46 <roba> +1
20:27:00 <PWinstanley> Q?
20:27:05 <ncar> AndreaPerego: we should go for a Note and then see if we can move to a Rec if it looks like we can meet requirements
20:27:10 <PWinstanley> ack azaroth
20:27:10 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to discuss non editorial requirements of Rec such as testing
20:27:51 <ncar> azaroth: Recs need independent implementations and a test suite testing specific features
20:28:50 <ncar> azaroth: if we go for a Note to a Rec, we need to do this fast in order to complete process in time of WG
20:29:36 <ncar> PWinstanley: is this (azaroth's comments) about Guidance overall or profileDesc?
20:30:16 <ncar> azaroth: specifically profileDesc, a technical part of Guidance
20:30:29 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.09.11
20:30:39 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:30:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:30:47 <ncar> PWinstanley: are you saying the rest of Guidance would be a Rec?
20:31:08 <ncar> azaroth: I'm not certain about the process of Best Practices rather than tech docs
20:31:12 <PWinstanley> ack annette_g
20:31:18 <AndreaPerego> regrets+  Ixchel Faniel
20:31:18 <roba> we dont have enough input to justify best practices about guidance
20:31:21 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:31:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:31:36 <PWinstanley> q?
20:32:12 <ncar> annette_g: I support profileDesc as a Note or Rec to allow us to point to the formal description (lack of which is holiding us back)
20:32:17 <SimonCox> q+
20:32:18 <roba> +1
20:32:25 <roba> q+
20:32:27 <PWinstanley> ack ncar
20:32:30 <ncar> annette_g: it would be strange for Guidance as a Rec but profileDesc as a Rec
20:32:48 <AndreaPerego> s/PWinstanley -/PWinstanley: /
20:33:15 <AndreaPerego> s/propose:/proposed:/
20:33:19 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:33:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:33:39 <azaroth> I believe that a TR can't normatively refer to a Note, as that would backdoor informal documents as providing requirements
20:33:40 <annette_g> s/profileDesc as a Rec/profileDesc as a Note/
20:33:50 <azaroth> But can refer to a Note informatively
20:34:01 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
20:34:21 <alejandra> is the shacl python validator open source, ncar ?
20:34:30 <ncar> ncar: my projects are building an implementation of profileDesc and will likely need a test suite
20:34:50 <PWinstanley> ack roba
20:34:57 <ncar> SimonCox: it's not necissary to have Recs refering to only other Recs since they can refer to all sorts of thing
20:35:07 <kcoyle> q+
20:35:43 <ncar> roba: annette_g summarised his thoughts regarding the requirement to document/describe formally profiles
20:36:08 <ncar> roba: go for a Note and see if we get to Rec - much time already lost
20:36:10 <AndreaPerego> s/necissary/necessary/
20:36:34 <ncar> roba: no assumption yet that Guidance would require use of profileDesc, only that it may be a way
20:36:41 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:36:52 <ncar> roba: noone on this call has proposed profileDesc alternatives, need seems assumed
20:37:21 <ncar> kcoyle: analysis of requirements (for profile guidance) and which are mey by profileDesc
20:37:33 <annette_g> q+
20:37:45 <ncar> kcoyle: profileDesc seems to describe environment in which profile exists but not the profile itself
20:37:58 <roba> +1 we need to be cafreful about claims - and we can prioritise that triage of requirements in the guidance group
20:38:01 <PWinstanley> ack annette_g
20:38:14 <AndreaPerego> s/holiding/holding/
20:38:20 <roba> q+
20:38:26 <alejandra> q+
20:38:30 <ncar> annette_g: should we include in profileDesc a more robust description of what a profile is?
20:38:40 <ncar> PWinstanley: elaborate?
20:39:07 <DaveBrowning> s/cafreful/careful/
20:39:26 <ncar> annette_g: languages can be use, anything missing in existing schema languages...
20:39:46 <PWinstanley> ack roba
20:39:56 <ncar> PWinstanley: we talk about machine readable and RDF but what about diagrams and had crafted
20:40:16 <ncar> roba: we choose a formalism first and W3C uses ontologies
20:40:37 <ncar> roba: profileDesc specifically includes a definition of 'profile' which will be updated
20:41:39 <ncar> roba: profileDesc fills gap note catered for by constraint languages (SHACL, ShEx etc) which do not talk about relationships between objects relevant to profiling
20:42:12 <ncar> PWinstanley: have you, roba, written a gap analysis for profileDesc vis a vis contraint languages
20:42:31 <ncar> roba: a discussion would be resonable
20:42:34 <ncar> q+
20:42:42 <AndreaPerego> s/contraint/constraint/
20:42:52 <ncar> PWinstanley: we need this gap analysis in the doc
20:43:24 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
20:43:24 <ncar> roba: we can include a comparison table in the doc
20:43:38 <AndreaPerego> s/resonable/reasonable/
20:43:59 <ncar> alejandra: we need formalism, Note/Rec can be decided later
20:44:17 <ncar> alejandra: seems no alternative to profileDesc
20:44:19 <PWinstanley> ack ncar
20:45:19 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:45:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:45:37 <ncar> ncar: an action item from this meeting to generate a gap analysis for the Guidance doc would be good
20:45:59 <roba> should we map requirements to profiledesc at this point then?
20:46:11 <ncar> PWinstanley: this can be done quickly and would give us a clear steer for profileDesc arguments
20:46:28 <ncar> action: ncar to draft a profileDesc gap analysis for the guidance document
20:46:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-210 - Draft a profiledesc gap analysis for the guidance document [on Nicholas Car - due 2018-09-18].
20:46:55 <roba> - we dont have counter arguments yet - only process cycles - so where shoiuld we address them - issues would seem logical
20:47:24 <ncar> PWinstanley: a few people have indicated writeup of profileDesc as a Note
20:48:06 <ncar> roba: issues on requirements seems to be the way to go since there are no counter proposals
20:48:42 <ncar> PWinstanley: comparison of Dublin Core profiles needs to be included in gap analysis
20:48:44 <ncar> q+
20:49:22 <ncar> PWinstanley: at least a comparison with Singapore Framework is required
20:49:46 <ncar> roba: read and agreed with Singapore Framework, should refere to it more
20:50:11 <SimonCox> +1 to needing an implementable version of profile descriptions! (Singapore Framework does not provide an implementation)
20:51:26 <ncar> q?
20:51:35 <PWinstanley> ack ncar
20:52:17 <ncar> https://github.com/CSIRO-enviro-informatics/csiro-epub-dcap
20:53:54 <ncar> ncar: I have done a technical analysis/review of profileDesc v. Singapore Framework and put up an example of profile described using this in the link above
20:54:21 <ncar> action: ncar to construct profileDesc as a Note
20:54:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-211 - Construct profiledesc as a note [on Nicholas Car - due 2018-09-18].
20:54:35 <kcoyle> q+
20:54:41 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:54:43 <ncar> proposal: present profileDesc as a Note
20:55:03 <azaroth> +1
20:55:10 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:55:15 <annette_g> doesn't it have to say PROPOSED?
20:55:20 <ncar> kcoyle: GitHub Issue 323 lists vocabularies that are Notes
20:55:20 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/323
20:55:30 <ncar> proposed: present profileDesc as a Note
20:55:37 <annette_g> +1
20:55:39 <ncar> +1
20:55:40 <kcoyle> +1
20:55:40 <roba> +1
20:55:42 <PWinstanley> +1
20:55:42 <SimonCox> +1
20:55:43 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:55:44 <azaroth> +1
20:55:44 <alejandra> +1
20:55:49 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:55:55 <ncar> resolved: present profileDesc as a Note
20:55:56 <dsr> dsr has joined #dxwg
20:56:11 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:56:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:57:11 <ncar> PWinstanley: what are the requirements from W3C for Guidance document (non-technical) as a Rec?
20:58:10 <PWinstanley> Topic: Conneg group report
20:59:00 <ncar> ncar: we have positioned the IETF doc v W3C work
20:59:14 <ncar> ncar: we have included requirements for conneg in the doc
20:59:34 <azaroth> Thanks all, got to run.
21:00:06 <PWinstanley> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:00:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
21:00:10 <alejandra> thanks all, and bye
21:00:14 <annette_g> bye all
21:00:17 <AndreaPerego> Thanks, bye bye!
21:01:15 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/09/11-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:07:43 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg