08:23:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
08:23:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-irc
08:23:34 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, make logs public
08:23:52 <PWinstanley> chair: DBrowning
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08:25:06 <PWinstanley> regrets+ Simon Cox, Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens , Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson , Andrea, Makx
08:25:30 <PWinstanley> meeting: DXWG DCAT Subgroup Weekly Meeting
08:25:42 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
08:25:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
08:29:00 <alejandra> regrets+ Jaroslav Pullmann
08:29:18 <alejandra> chair: alejandra
08:29:23 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
08:29:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
08:32:31 <roba> roba has joined #dxwgdcat
08:33:02 <roba> present+
08:33:29 <PWinstanley> present+
08:33:38 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
08:33:39 <alejandra> present+
08:33:46 <DaveBrowning> present+
08:33:55 <PWinstanley> Topic: Admin
08:34:35 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.08.30
08:35:31 <alejandra> Minutes from two weeks ago: https://www.w3.org/2018/08/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
08:36:14 <roba> +1
08:36:19 <PWinstanley> proposed: approve minutes 2018-08-16
08:36:20 <alejandra> PROPOSED: approve minutes from two weeks ago: https://www.w3.org/2018/08/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
08:36:25 <roba> +1
08:36:26 <alejandra> +1
08:36:26 <DaveBrowning> +1
08:36:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
08:37:16 <PWinstanley> resolved: approve minutes 2018-08-16
08:37:21 <PWinstanley> proposed: approve minutes 2018-08-23
08:37:25 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2018/08/23-dxwgdcat-minutes
08:37:38 <alejandra> +1
08:37:42 <DaveBrowning> +1
08:37:43 <PWinstanley> +1
08:37:53 <PWinstanley> resolved: approve minutes 2018-08-23
08:37:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> +0 ( i was absent)
08:38:49 <PWinstanley> topic: open actions
08:38:50 <alejandra> Topic: open actions
08:38:51 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open
08:39:03 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/153
08:39:45 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: #153 is ongoing
08:39:48 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/173
08:39:53 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
08:41:47 <alejandra> the property is described here: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#Property:dataset_wasgeneratedby
08:41:49 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: needing clarification about where it should go
08:42:13 <alejandra> some examples of wasGeneratedBy here: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#quality-example1
08:42:47 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley: thanks for the pointer
08:43:14 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: we have good examples for this too, but it will be 3-4 weeks before I can deliver them
08:44:19 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: there are 3 linked actions - #153. 184, 186.  Some is editorial, but there is other stuff depending on how we do the release (hidden behnd #186)
08:44:33 <PWinstanley> s/behnd/behind/
08:45:31 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: there are detailed questions about links within the document that I need to discuss with Dave Raggett.  Early next week for editorial work
08:46:09 <PWinstanley> Topic: Public Comments
08:46:12 <PWinstanley> alejandra: none
08:46:18 <PWinstanley> Topic: Data Citation
08:46:20 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/61
08:46:22 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we discussed in the plenary that Dave Raggett needs to be involved and given dates of proposed publication of 2nd draft
08:47:11 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I've already made a PR that was merged, it included a note indicating the data citation as a potential profile
08:47:13 <alejandra> Note about data citation at section https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#class-dataset
08:47:18 <DaveBrowning> Dave Raggett was emailed today, telling him about the date etc
08:47:36 <alejandra> Addition of dataset creator: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#Property:dataset_creator
08:47:40 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we also added a requirement for a dct:creator as part of a dataset
08:48:39 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we are not including a profile, but there is scope for creating a ShEx or SHACL constraint
08:48:47 <alejandra> ?q
08:48:50 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
08:48:53 <alejandra> q?
08:48:56 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
08:49:48 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni:  I can close the issue, but I would like a link, the one I tried was broken
08:50:31 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I will add a comment
08:50:43 <PWinstanley> ... in issue #61 it is hard to understand what has happened
08:50:46 <PWinstanley> proposed:  close issue #61
08:50:48 <DaveBrowning> +1
08:50:49 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
08:51:04 <roba> +1
08:51:05 <PWinstanley> +1
08:51:16 <alejandra> +1
08:51:16 <PWinstanley> resolved:  close issue #61
08:51:38 <PWinstanley> Topic:  Blank Nodes
08:51:40 <alejandra>  https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/300
08:52:34 <PWinstanley> alejandra: this started from another issue, then Jakub sought inclusion of some guidance against using blank nodes
08:52:52 <PWinstanley> ... "should"  rather than "must"
08:53:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
08:53:09 <PWinstanley> ... can someone provide text and PR?
08:53:10 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
08:53:59 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the sentence I cited could be a good starter, so I could make the contribution
08:54:04 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I thought that we should initially define a blank node
08:54:20 <PWinstanley> ... but please riccardoAlbertoni provide some text and a PR
08:55:04 <PWinstanley> actionn: riccardoAlbertoni  to provide text for issue #300
08:55:10 <PWinstanley> assign: riccardoAlbertoni  to provide text for issue #300
08:55:24 <alejandra> topic: dataset size
08:55:54 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/313
08:56:13 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we discussed some time ago the current use by DCAT of bytesize which takes an integer, but there was discussion about UoM
08:56:31 <alejandra> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-gld-wg/2012Oct/0117.html
08:56:57 <PWinstanley> ... this topic has already been discussed and there was a previous proposal on size that needed blank nodes, so this was deprecated in favour of byteSize
08:58:06 <PWinstanley> ... In microscopy files can be terabytes, so I wondered if we could find out about integer size
08:58:21 <alejandra> ?q
08:58:24 <alejandra> q?
08:58:28 <roba> q+
08:58:28 <PWinstanley> ... so perhaps we need to have a UoM
08:58:34 <PWinstanley> q+
08:58:40 <alejandra> ack roba
08:58:48 <alejandra> s/?q/
08:59:56 <PWinstanley> roba: I see lots of places where sizes are arranged in a microformat, and this feels terse  and natural.  I think that using blank nodes it not a good idea, but a microformat with a qualified size might be better
09:00:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
09:00:39 <PWinstanley> roba: I'll find some
09:00:40 <alejandra> ack PWinstanley
09:00:53 <PWinstanley> alejandra: do you have examples?
09:01:00 <roba> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformat
09:01:05 <alejandra> PWinstanley: there's probably a need to leave open the possibility of units of measure
09:01:18 <alejandra> ... we are dealing with data streams where the size is infinite
09:01:25 <alejandra> ... but what might be relevant is the rate
09:01:38 <alejandra> ... that might be a very worthwhile thing to include
09:01:41 <alejandra> ... bytes per second
09:01:52 <alejandra> ... we need to think more deeply about this if we are going to use it at all
09:01:59 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
09:02:37 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I was thinking that it isn't necessary to add a blank node.  we could have a new class with a number and a unit of measure.  This would future-proof it
09:02:57 <PWinstanley> alejandra: then you assign an IRI to the object
09:03:02 <PWinstanley> +1 to riccardoAlbertoni
09:03:05 <DaveBrowning> q+ about support for rates
09:03:23 <DaveBrowning> q+ to mention support for rates
09:03:41 <alejandra> ack DaveBrowning
09:03:41 <Zakim> DaveBrowning, you wanted to mention support for rates
09:04:05 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: there is a need for flexibility and durability in the long term and a new class would sort this
09:05:06 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: I want to support and disagree with PWinstanley .  For streams a data rate would be helpful, but byteSize is already part of the 2014 standard, but if we use rates then that might be better supported by a separate issue.  I cannot see an integrated solution
09:05:16 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I think it does deserve a new issue
09:05:31 <PWinstanley> action: PWinstanley  to create a new use case for rate
09:05:31 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:06:32 <riccardoAlbertoni> ok
09:06:37 <alejandra> continue the discussion in the issue: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/313
09:06:39 <roba> q+
09:06:43 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we now need to investigate the microformat option suggested by roba .  I think that a new class as described by riccardoAlbertoni  might be overkill if we are moving to a new issue about rate
09:06:44 <alejandra> ack roba
09:06:53 <DaveBrowning> ok for continuing conversation
09:07:10 <PWinstanley> roba: is this something we can leave in limbo whilst connecting up with people involved in data streaming at TPAC?
09:07:29 <PWinstanley> ... there might be expertise we can pull from participants at that meeting
09:08:26 <PWinstanley> roba: a lot of people are concerned about describing size and there needs to be alignment across W3C work
09:08:36 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/125
09:08:45 <PWinstanley> alejandra: one issue was describing size - so we leave open for continued analysis and discussion,
09:09:28 <PWinstanley> ... but there is also issue #125 - the constraints that dcat:byteSize has and if there needs to be some relaxation of constraints
09:10:02 <alejandra> q?
09:10:09 <PWinstanley> ... any views?
09:10:14 <DaveBrowning> q+
09:10:14 <roba> q+
09:10:21 <alejandra> ack DaveBrowning
09:10:24 <PWinstanley> ... one case is that we allow loose files to be connected with dct:relation
09:11:11 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: I think that is a good observation.  supporting collections of files need to be done consistently.  the domain constraint doesn't make sense.  I agree we should relax the constraint
09:11:14 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to relaxing the domain, also because this change seems to be back compatible ..
09:11:15 <alejandra> ack roba
09:12:09 <PWinstanley> roba: this raises an interesting issue - in e.g. SKOS there is detail about the entailments that are supported.  I've yet to see a strategy for coherently documenting this
09:12:16 <PWinstanley> ... any suggestions?
09:12:26 <PWinstanley> q?
09:13:21 <PWinstanley> roba: I find that this happens so often that we need to have guidance on the assumptions that can be made
09:13:54 <alejandra> at the moment the range is rdfs:range rdfs:Literal ;
09:14:15 <alejandra> note indicating "The literal value of dcat:byteSize should by typed as xsd:decimal".
09:14:16 <PWinstanley> alejandra: maybe we're not now in a position to decide, but removing domain constraints would not make much different.  In both issues there is also discussion about range.  At the moment it is a literal
09:14:20 <PWinstanley> ... but there is a scope note suggesting it could be a decimal
09:14:45 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#positiveInteger
09:15:13 <alejandra> optional positive sign ('+') followed by a non-empty finite-length sequence of decimal digits (#x30-#x39)
09:15:17 <PWinstanley> ... Makx pointed out that there are implementations using xsd:decimal, but Simon suggested using positiveInteger
09:15:34 <PWinstanley> ... this refers to a lexical representation of a plus sign followed by decimal digits of finite length
09:15:42 <roba> if the positive sign is mandatory i think its a problem..
09:15:56 <roba> *oops i see optional !
09:17:52 <PWinstanley> alejandra: are we limiting by only using bytes, this gives a upper limit and it might preclude describing really large files (e.g. MRI files)
09:17:53 <riccardoAlbertoni> yes I think so , we have a limit, even if I don't know which limit is
09:18:01 <alejandra> q?
09:18:13 <roba> limit will be implementation specific
09:18:20 <PWinstanley> ... so I think we should consider other units of measure
09:18:23 <PWinstanley> q+
09:18:28 <alejandra> ack PWinstanley
09:18:47 <alejandra> PWinstanley: byte sizes - issue about precision...
09:18:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
09:19:03 <alejandra> ... and UTF8 / UTF16
09:19:07 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
09:19:33 <roba> q+
09:19:41 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: it seems there is no solution that fits all situations, it depends on the use.  we need to be flexible, and perhaps put this into the profile
09:20:33 <PWinstanley> ... the UoM could be expressed explicitly in the profile.  Specific communities in defining a profile can specify their UoM
09:20:34 <alejandra> ack roba
09:21:43 <PWinstanley> roba: radical proposal - if we want the semantics of an exact size we probably need byteSize (integer) and an approximate size (which could take a microformat).  i think this would be practical
09:22:04 <PWinstanley> alejandra: the previous spec considered approximate size
09:22:17 <PWinstanley> ... on issue 313,
09:22:28 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/313
09:23:11 <PWinstanley> ... the indicated that the same property can be used for accurate and approximate byte sizes
09:23:30 <PWinstanley> roba: we need exact measures to know if we have everything. vague statements are hard to work with in practice
09:23:41 <PWinstanley> alejandra: let's continue the discussion in github
09:24:03 <alejandra> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1855
09:24:35 <PWinstanley> ... for now let's leave
09:24:39 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:24:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
09:24:43 <PWinstanley> ... There was a related schema.org issue worth looking at in this context
09:24:47 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/300
09:24:54 <PWinstanley> Topic: dct:type Class vs Concept
09:25:17 <roba> q+
09:25:29 <alejandra> ack roba
09:25:31 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/314
09:26:28 <PWinstanley> roba: an assertion from SDWWG where range was formally an rfds:Class, but is used as a skos:Concept
09:27:28 <PWinstanley> ... I think that is a suggestion for a strong requirement for OWL-DL compatibility- but we don't have this at present so we need to make a use case and decide if it is for DCAT of for the Profiles group to consider
09:27:52 <DaveBrowning> q+
09:27:58 <PWinstanley> ... we need the UC developed
09:28:49 <alejandra> ack DaveBrowning
09:28:53 <PWinstanley> ... we don't know yet if it is a valid requirement.  this at present is a philosophical conversation about whether punning should be allowed or  not
09:29:20 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: I agree with roba .  it is a theological debate
09:29:32 <PWinstanley> ... we need to be led by use cases
09:29:45 <PWinstanley> alejandra: who should do this UC work?
09:29:55 <roba> q+
09:30:01 <alejandra> ack roba
09:31:06 <PWinstanley> roba: external comments brought this to our attention, but it needs group involvement for us to consider
09:31:30 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:31:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
09:31:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> Thanks a lot, bye
09:32:04 <PWinstanley> alejandra: let's leave this for the time being and follow up later
09:32:05 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:32:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
09:32:20 <alejandra> I'll now create the actions manually
09:32:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
09:33:05 <PWinstanley> thanks
09:33:13 <PWinstanley> bye
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