IRC log of dxwgdcat on 2018-08-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:23:20 [RRSAgent]
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08:23:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
08:23:34 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:23:52 [PWinstanley]
chair: DBrowning
08:24:02 [alejandra]
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08:25:06 [PWinstanley]
regrets+ Simon Cox, Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens , Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson , Andrea, Makx
08:25:30 [PWinstanley]
meeting: DXWG DCAT Subgroup Weekly Meeting
08:25:42 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
08:25:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
08:29:00 [alejandra]
regrets+ Jaroslav Pullmann
08:29:18 [alejandra]
chair: alejandra
08:29:23 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
08:29:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
08:32:31 [roba]
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08:33:02 [roba]
08:33:29 [PWinstanley]
08:33:38 [DaveBrowning]
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08:33:39 [alejandra]
08:33:46 [DaveBrowning]
08:33:55 [PWinstanley]
Topic: Admin
08:34:35 [alejandra]
08:35:31 [alejandra]
Minutes from two weeks ago:
08:36:14 [roba]
08:36:19 [PWinstanley]
proposed: approve minutes 2018-08-16
08:36:20 [alejandra]
PROPOSED: approve minutes from two weeks ago:
08:36:25 [roba]
08:36:26 [alejandra]
08:36:26 [DaveBrowning]
08:36:30 [riccardoAlbertoni]
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08:37:16 [PWinstanley]
resolved: approve minutes 2018-08-16
08:37:21 [PWinstanley]
proposed: approve minutes 2018-08-23
08:37:25 [alejandra]
08:37:38 [alejandra]
08:37:42 [DaveBrowning]
08:37:43 [PWinstanley]
08:37:53 [PWinstanley]
resolved: approve minutes 2018-08-23
08:37:56 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+0 ( i was absent)
08:38:49 [PWinstanley]
topic: open actions
08:38:50 [alejandra]
Topic: open actions
08:38:51 [alejandra]
08:39:03 [alejandra]
08:39:45 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: #153 is ongoing
08:39:48 [alejandra]
08:39:53 [riccardoAlbertoni]
08:41:47 [alejandra]
the property is described here:
08:41:49 [PWinstanley]
PWinstanley: needing clarification about where it should go
08:42:13 [alejandra]
some examples of wasGeneratedBy here:
08:42:47 [PWinstanley]
PWinstanley: thanks for the pointer
08:43:14 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: we have good examples for this too, but it will be 3-4 weeks before I can deliver them
08:44:19 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: there are 3 linked actions - #153. 184, 186. Some is editorial, but there is other stuff depending on how we do the release (hidden behnd #186)
08:44:33 [PWinstanley]
08:45:31 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: there are detailed questions about links within the document that I need to discuss with Dave Raggett. Early next week for editorial work
08:46:09 [PWinstanley]
Topic: Public Comments
08:46:12 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: none
08:46:18 [PWinstanley]
Topic: Data Citation
08:46:20 [alejandra]
08:46:22 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we discussed in the plenary that Dave Raggett needs to be involved and given dates of proposed publication of 2nd draft
08:47:11 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: I've already made a PR that was merged, it included a note indicating the data citation as a potential profile
08:47:13 [alejandra]
Note about data citation at section
08:47:18 [DaveBrowning]
Dave Raggett was emailed today, telling him about the date etc
08:47:36 [alejandra]
Addition of dataset creator:
08:47:40 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we also added a requirement for a dct:creator as part of a dataset
08:48:39 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we are not including a profile, but there is scope for creating a ShEx or SHACL constraint
08:48:47 [alejandra]
08:48:50 [riccardoAlbertoni]
08:48:53 [alejandra]
08:48:56 [alejandra]
ack riccardoAlbertoni
08:49:48 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: I can close the issue, but I would like a link, the one I tried was broken
08:50:31 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: I will add a comment
08:50:43 [PWinstanley]
... in issue #61 it is hard to understand what has happened
08:50:46 [PWinstanley]
proposed: close issue #61
08:50:48 [DaveBrowning]
08:50:49 [riccardoAlbertoni]
08:51:04 [roba]
08:51:05 [PWinstanley]
08:51:16 [alejandra]
08:51:16 [PWinstanley]
resolved: close issue #61
08:51:38 [PWinstanley]
Topic: Blank Nodes
08:51:40 [alejandra]
08:52:34 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: this started from another issue, then Jakub sought inclusion of some guidance against using blank nodes
08:52:52 [PWinstanley]
... "should" rather than "must"
08:53:04 [riccardoAlbertoni]
08:53:09 [PWinstanley]
... can someone provide text and PR?
08:53:10 [alejandra]
ack riccardoAlbertoni
08:53:59 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: the sentence I cited could be a good starter, so I could make the contribution
08:54:04 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: I thought that we should initially define a blank node
08:54:20 [PWinstanley]
... but please riccardoAlbertoni provide some text and a PR
08:55:04 [PWinstanley]
actionn: riccardoAlbertoni to provide text for issue #300
08:55:10 [PWinstanley]
assign: riccardoAlbertoni to provide text for issue #300
08:55:24 [alejandra]
topic: dataset size
08:55:54 [alejandra]
08:56:13 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we discussed some time ago the current use by DCAT of bytesize which takes an integer, but there was discussion about UoM
08:56:31 [alejandra]
08:56:57 [PWinstanley]
... this topic has already been discussed and there was a previous proposal on size that needed blank nodes, so this was deprecated in favour of byteSize
08:58:06 [PWinstanley]
... In microscopy files can be terabytes, so I wondered if we could find out about integer size
08:58:21 [alejandra]
08:58:24 [alejandra]
08:58:28 [roba]
08:58:28 [PWinstanley]
... so perhaps we need to have a UoM
08:58:34 [PWinstanley]
08:58:40 [alejandra]
ack roba
08:58:48 [alejandra]
08:59:56 [PWinstanley]
roba: I see lots of places where sizes are arranged in a microformat, and this feels terse and natural. I think that using blank nodes it not a good idea, but a microformat with a qualified size might be better
09:00:39 [riccardoAlbertoni]
09:00:39 [PWinstanley]
roba: I'll find some
09:00:40 [alejandra]
ack PWinstanley
09:00:53 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: do you have examples?
09:01:00 [roba]
09:01:05 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: there's probably a need to leave open the possibility of units of measure
09:01:18 [alejandra]
... we are dealing with data streams where the size is infinite
09:01:25 [alejandra]
... but what might be relevant is the rate
09:01:38 [alejandra]
... that might be a very worthwhile thing to include
09:01:41 [alejandra]
... bytes per second
09:01:52 [alejandra]
... we need to think more deeply about this if we are going to use it at all
09:01:59 [alejandra]
ack riccardoAlbertoni
09:02:37 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: I was thinking that it isn't necessary to add a blank node. we could have a new class with a number and a unit of measure. This would future-proof it
09:02:57 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: then you assign an IRI to the object
09:03:02 [PWinstanley]
+1 to riccardoAlbertoni
09:03:05 [DaveBrowning]
q+ about support for rates
09:03:23 [DaveBrowning]
q+ to mention support for rates
09:03:41 [alejandra]
ack DaveBrowning
09:03:41 [Zakim]
DaveBrowning, you wanted to mention support for rates
09:04:05 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: there is a need for flexibility and durability in the long term and a new class would sort this
09:05:06 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: I want to support and disagree with PWinstanley . For streams a data rate would be helpful, but byteSize is already part of the 2014 standard, but if we use rates then that might be better supported by a separate issue. I cannot see an integrated solution
09:05:16 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: I think it does deserve a new issue
09:05:31 [PWinstanley]
action: PWinstanley to create a new use case for rate
09:05:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:06:32 [riccardoAlbertoni]
09:06:37 [alejandra]
continue the discussion in the issue:
09:06:39 [roba]
09:06:43 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: we now need to investigate the microformat option suggested by roba . I think that a new class as described by riccardoAlbertoni might be overkill if we are moving to a new issue about rate
09:06:44 [alejandra]
ack roba
09:06:53 [DaveBrowning]
ok for continuing conversation
09:07:10 [PWinstanley]
roba: is this something we can leave in limbo whilst connecting up with people involved in data streaming at TPAC?
09:07:29 [PWinstanley]
... there might be expertise we can pull from participants at that meeting
09:08:26 [PWinstanley]
roba: a lot of people are concerned about describing size and there needs to be alignment across W3C work
09:08:36 [alejandra]
09:08:45 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: one issue was describing size - so we leave open for continued analysis and discussion,
09:09:28 [PWinstanley]
... but there is also issue #125 - the constraints that dcat:byteSize has and if there needs to be some relaxation of constraints
09:10:02 [alejandra]
09:10:09 [PWinstanley]
... any views?
09:10:14 [DaveBrowning]
09:10:14 [roba]
09:10:21 [alejandra]
ack DaveBrowning
09:10:24 [PWinstanley]
... one case is that we allow loose files to be connected with dct:relation
09:11:11 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: I think that is a good observation. supporting collections of files need to be done consistently. the domain constraint doesn't make sense. I agree we should relax the constraint
09:11:14 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1 to relaxing the domain, also because this change seems to be back compatible ..
09:11:15 [alejandra]
ack roba
09:12:09 [PWinstanley]
roba: this raises an interesting issue - in e.g. SKOS there is detail about the entailments that are supported. I've yet to see a strategy for coherently documenting this
09:12:16 [PWinstanley]
... any suggestions?
09:12:26 [PWinstanley]
09:13:21 [PWinstanley]
roba: I find that this happens so often that we need to have guidance on the assumptions that can be made
09:13:54 [alejandra]
at the moment the range is rdfs:range rdfs:Literal ;
09:14:15 [alejandra]
note indicating "The literal value of dcat:byteSize should by typed as xsd:decimal".
09:14:16 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: maybe we're not now in a position to decide, but removing domain constraints would not make much different. In both issues there is also discussion about range. At the moment it is a literal
09:14:20 [PWinstanley]
... but there is a scope note suggesting it could be a decimal
09:14:45 [alejandra]
09:15:13 [alejandra]
optional positive sign ('+') followed by a non-empty finite-length sequence of decimal digits (#x30-#x39)
09:15:17 [PWinstanley]
... Makx pointed out that there are implementations using xsd:decimal, but Simon suggested using positiveInteger
09:15:34 [PWinstanley]
... this refers to a lexical representation of a plus sign followed by decimal digits of finite length
09:15:42 [roba]
if the positive sign is mandatory i think its a problem..
09:15:56 [roba]
*oops i see optional !
09:17:52 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: are we limiting by only using bytes, this gives a upper limit and it might preclude describing really large files (e.g. MRI files)
09:17:53 [riccardoAlbertoni]
yes I think so , we have a limit, even if I don't know which limit is
09:18:01 [alejandra]
09:18:13 [roba]
limit will be implementation specific
09:18:20 [PWinstanley]
... so I think we should consider other units of measure
09:18:23 [PWinstanley]
09:18:28 [alejandra]
ack PWinstanley
09:18:47 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: byte sizes - issue about precision...
09:18:54 [riccardoAlbertoni]
09:19:03 [alejandra]
... and UTF8 / UTF16
09:19:07 [alejandra]
ack riccardoAlbertoni
09:19:33 [roba]
09:19:41 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: it seems there is no solution that fits all situations, it depends on the use. we need to be flexible, and perhaps put this into the profile
09:20:33 [PWinstanley]
... the UoM could be expressed explicitly in the profile. Specific communities in defining a profile can specify their UoM
09:20:34 [alejandra]
ack roba
09:21:43 [PWinstanley]
roba: radical proposal - if we want the semantics of an exact size we probably need byteSize (integer) and an approximate size (which could take a microformat). i think this would be practical
09:22:04 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: the previous spec considered approximate size
09:22:17 [PWinstanley]
... on issue 313,
09:22:28 [alejandra]
09:23:11 [PWinstanley]
... the indicated that the same property can be used for accurate and approximate byte sizes
09:23:30 [PWinstanley]
roba: we need exact measures to know if we have everything. vague statements are hard to work with in practice
09:23:41 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: let's continue the discussion in github
09:24:03 [alejandra]
09:24:35 [PWinstanley]
... for now let's leave
09:24:39 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:24:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
09:24:43 [PWinstanley]
... There was a related issue worth looking at in this context
09:24:47 [alejandra]
09:24:54 [PWinstanley]
Topic: dct:type Class vs Concept
09:25:17 [roba]
09:25:29 [alejandra]
ack roba
09:25:31 [alejandra]
09:26:28 [PWinstanley]
roba: an assertion from SDWWG where range was formally an rfds:Class, but is used as a skos:Concept
09:27:28 [PWinstanley]
... I think that is a suggestion for a strong requirement for OWL-DL compatibility- but we don't have this at present so we need to make a use case and decide if it is for DCAT of for the Profiles group to consider
09:27:52 [DaveBrowning]
09:27:58 [PWinstanley]
... we need the UC developed
09:28:49 [alejandra]
ack DaveBrowning
09:28:53 [PWinstanley]
... we don't know yet if it is a valid requirement. this at present is a philosophical conversation about whether punning should be allowed or not
09:29:20 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: I agree with roba . it is a theological debate
09:29:32 [PWinstanley]
... we need to be led by use cases
09:29:45 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: who should do this UC work?
09:29:55 [roba]
09:30:01 [alejandra]
ack roba
09:31:06 [PWinstanley]
roba: external comments brought this to our attention, but it needs group involvement for us to consider
09:31:30 [DaveBrowning]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:31:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DaveBrowning
09:31:54 [riccardoAlbertoni]
Thanks a lot, bye
09:32:04 [PWinstanley]
alejandra: let's leave this for the time being and follow up later
09:32:05 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:32:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
09:32:20 [alejandra]
I'll now create the actions manually
09:32:54 [riccardoAlbertoni]
09:33:05 [PWinstanley]
09:33:13 [PWinstanley]
11:45:31 [Zakim]
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