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15:38:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:38:27 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:38:27 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:38:27 <ivan> Date: 2018-08-20
15:38:27 <ivan> Regrets+ garth
15:38:27 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Aug/0010.html
15:38:27 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting 2018-08-20: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Aug/0010.html
15:54:39 <ivan> present+
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15:57:31 <ivan> present+ tzviya
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16:00:32 <Rachel> scribenick: Rachel
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16:01:36 <ivan> regrets+ garth
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16:02:38 <franco> present+ franco
16:02:41 <josh> present+
16:02:42 <Avneesh> present+
16:02:51 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-07-30-pwg.html
16:03:05 <Rachel> tzviya: approving minutes
16:03:18 <ivan> resolved: minutes of july 30 accepted
16:03:24 <Rachel> ... minutes approved
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16:03:28 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
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16:03:50 <Rachel> topic: Update on Update
16:04:04 <Rachel> Ivan: we have updated the webIDL to the new version
16:04:25 <Rachel> ... while doing this there were some issues that came up
16:04:40 <Rachel> ... some led to minor changes to make contents more precise
16:04:53 <Rachel> ... some issues are still open (ie table of contents)
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16:05:12 <duga> present+
16:05:16 <Rachel> tzviya: comments?
16:05:18 <rkwright> present+
16:05:31 <Rachel> tzviya: so everyone is happy?
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16:05:44 <Rachel> Topic: Implementations
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16:06:03 <Rachel> tzviya: several of you offered to begin work on implementations
16:06:04 <ivan> q+
16:06:08 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:06:12 <Rachel> ...any feedback or code samples to share?
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16:06:22 <Rachel> ivan: 2 things i know about
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16:06:37 <Rachel> ... Hadrien worked on a JSON schema for the manifest
16:06:54 <Rachel> ...someof the issues around the webidl came from the JSON schema
16:07:08 <Hadrien> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/tree/master/schema
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16:07:34 <Rachel> ... the other one I know about is from me, which is a look at what it means to turn the manuscript into something a js library can use
16:07:47 <Hadrien> but I still need to work on "accessibilityModeSufficient"
16:08:14 <Rachel> ...anyone is welcome to pick this up and use it, it was meant to cross check the webIDL
16:08:19 <Rachel> q?
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16:08:55 <Rachel> Hadrien: I linked the JSON schema; I think it will be useful for implementations and validations
16:09:07 <Rachel> tzviya: any questions on accessmodeSufficient?
16:09:08 <ivan> q+
16:09:36 <Rachel> Hadrien: initially I had something a bit too complex; I think if I look at the WebIDL I should be able to adapt the schema
16:09:45 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:10:16 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/310
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16:10:52 <Rachel> Ivan: we had a discussion with several people and there is a pull request which I believe implements what I understood the syntax should be
16:11:02 <Rachel> ...I would like to merge this ASAP
16:11:25 <Rachel> Hadrien: there is one difference in the IDL and the schema in the type of validation
16:11:45 <Rachel> ivan: can I merge this pull request?
16:12:09 <Avneesh> q+
16:12:12 <Rachel> tzviya: not enough people on the call are familiar with this to decide if we can merge
16:12:14 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
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16:12:53 <Rachel> Avneesh: the main issue was comma separated strings in the epub world (to fit in epub opf structure)
16:13:03 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:13:17 <Rachel> ... the final example had a nested list structure
16:13:27 <JunGamo> present+
16:13:31 <Rachel> ... and we should propose this list to shema.org as well
16:13:43 <Rachel> s/shema.org/schema.org
16:13:53 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:14:33 <Rachel> ivan: who proposes this to schema.org?
16:15:20 <Rachel> tzviya: so there is an existing definition in schema.org
16:15:21 <ivan> q+
16:15:27 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:15:28 <Rachel> ...what are we doing in our spec?
16:15:30 <caitlingebhard> present+
16:16:30 <Rachel> ivan: there was a long discussion in the schema.org email list about what would be the final representation. The JSON examples posted to schema.org don't actually align with what was agreed to in that description
16:16:47 <Rachel> q+
16:17:31 <Rachel> ivan: it is an array of text with a comma separated text in WP
16:18:17 <Rachel> ivan: what I put in WP is in line with what schema.org agreed to, but schema.org has not yet corrected their samples
16:18:29 <ivan> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wpub/pull/310.html#accessibility
16:18:44 <Rachel> q- tzviya asked what I needed to know
16:18:44 <tzviya> ack Rachel
16:18:48 <Rachel> q-
16:19:49 <Rachel> tzviya: any other comments about this pull request?
16:19:54 <Rachel> ...are we ok to merge?
16:19:58 <Rachel> +1
16:20:02 <timCole> +1
16:20:02 <laudrain> +1
16:20:03 <jbuehler> +1
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16:20:06 <ivan> +1
16:20:07 <josh> +1
16:20:11 <gpellegrino_> +1
16:20:19 <Rachel> tzviya: ivan, go ahead and merge
16:20:31 <Rachel> tzviya: any other implementations?
16:20:39 <franco> q+
16:20:43 <tzviya> ack franco
16:21:17 <Rachel> franco: we're doing a 'frankepub' based WP
16:21:56 <Rachel> Rachel: frankenepub is a collection of textbook content
16:21:56 <Hadrien> Comment about our work from an audiobook distributor: https://twitter.com/Luisterhuis/status/1030776054665895936
16:22:06 <Rachel> tzviya: friends from Kobo?
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16:22:20 <laurentlemeur> present+
16:23:37 <Rachel> ???: I did talk to people here about what work it would take to implement. They thought it would be easy to implement with FXL and DRM as potential issues.
16:23:53 <Rachel> tzviya: DRM is specifically out of scope
16:23:59 <ivan> s/???/wendyreid/
16:24:12 <Avneesh> Regarding previous topic, the link to original schema.org discusion about accessModeSufficient
16:24:14 <Avneesh> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1100
16:24:23 <Rachel> tzviya: Josh what about atypon?
16:24:51 <Rachel> josh: I focused primarily on what will be discussed next week in Japan - FXL
16:25:24 <Rachel> ...we've had some discussions about author and publisher hints for systems to use
16:25:41 <Rachel> ...I;ve written a set of user stories around this as well
16:26:28 <Rachel> ...it's a delicate line to say on one hand we want to give authors and publishers freedom to layout however they want to but also give reading system freedom for how they want to display to users
16:27:40 <Rachel> tzviya: we do have a spot in github for posting code
16:27:48 <Rachel> ...can someone post the link?
16:28:05 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/tree/master/experiments
16:28:09 <Rachel> Topic: Updates on Use Cases and integrating into spec
16:28:27 <Rachel> tzviya: Josh, how are yours coming
16:28:57 <Rachel> Josh: there's been some discussions about fixed layout as an issue
16:29:17 <Rachel> ...I merged locally, should I make pull requests to the master or merge every time?
16:30:01 <Rachel> ivan: I do branches on my local clone when I... ??
16:30:36 <Rachel> tzviya: call for new use cases
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16:30:53 <Rachel> Topic: Canonical Manifest
16:30:55 <tzviya> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wpub/pull/306.html#canonical-manifest
16:31:16 <Rachel> tzviya: ivan, can I ask you to give an overview
16:31:33 <Rachel> ivan: this is a relatively major thing
16:32:00 <Rachel> ...we are looking for the next logical step in the spec which is the lifecycle section
16:32:11 <Rachel> ... this is out of sync
16:32:40 <Rachel> ... how do I describe and specify the elements
16:33:08 <Rachel> ... we inherited from schema.org and the need to make authoring easier the manifest in JSONLD
16:33:39 <Rachel> ...I canhave a name but the value of the name can be an array (ie, the name in many languages)
16:34:13 <Rachel> ...the goal is to make this simple for the authors
16:35:14 <tzviya> q+
16:36:33 <Rachel> Ivan: the first is a PR which defines the transformation steps to generate a canonical manifest
16:36:53 <Rachel> ... I have an implementation that uses the transformation
16:36:58 <tzviya> ack tzv
16:37:05 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:37:29 <Rachel> tzviya: I think anything written in this algorithmic style is confusing
16:37:38 <dkaplan3> tzviya ++
16:37:45 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask who will run this and where
16:38:04 <Rachel> ...we're creating this algorithm so we have data that can be useable by systems? I am confused about the why and how of this
16:38:42 <Rachel> ivan: we could specify exactly what the canonical manifest looks like - make it explicit that you can have a string, an object...
16:39:05 <Rachel> ... what the algorthm does is defines the steps to generate the canonical version of the manifest
16:39:39 <Rachel> ...if you want to implement this - take the manifest of a user and digest it in your environment - this must be done somewhere
16:39:40 <bigbluehat> q-
16:40:07 <Rachel> ...this makes it easier to produce the wpub to the specification with explicit directions
16:40:09 <bigbluehat> q+
16:40:10 <laudrain> +1 to interoperability
16:40:12 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:40:34 <JuanCorona> +1 I like what i'm hearing
16:40:46 <Rachel> bigbluehat: thanks ivan, I'm guessing this is a pre-req to any implementation?
16:40:48 <Rachel> ivan: yes
16:41:00 <Rachel> bigbluehat: and this is a reflection of the way we shaped the manifest?
16:41:22 <Rachel> ivan: we made the manifest flexible, this gives shape to the requirement
16:42:15 <Rachel> ivan: one more thing not yet in the PR; there are some diagrams in the spec that I made because Rachel made me do it
16:42:21 <Rachel> ... these need to be updated
16:42:36 <zheng_xu> q+
16:42:42 <tzviya> ack zheng_xu
16:43:29 <Rachel> zheng_xu: can any provide an example of html...??
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16:44:27 <zheng_xu> +1
16:44:29 <Rachel> tzviya: shall we merge?
16:44:29 <laudrain> +1
16:44:33 <gpellegrino_> +1
16:44:34 <josh> +1
16:44:35 <timCole> +1
16:44:44 <Rachel> 0 but only because I need pictures
16:44:53 <Rachel> lol
16:45:25 <Rachel> tzviya: consensus to merge
16:45:33 <Rachel> ivan:  I will merge this then add examples
16:46:04 <Rachel> Topic: Issue 291 - TOC issues
16:46:06 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/291
16:47:04 <Rachel> tzviya: do we need a more detailed TOC description. In EPUB the nav document was the structured machine readable TOC as well as the visual.
16:47:19 <dauwhe> q+
16:47:30 <Rachel> ...some people used it as the visual but others would create a standalone TOC as well
16:48:02 <Rachel> ...should the machine-readable TOC be more stylized?
16:48:09 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:48:20 <Rachel> ...will that hamper accessibility? machine readablity?
16:48:38 <Rachel> dauwhe: do you have examples of the external TOC structure?
16:49:08 <ivan> regrets+ Teenya
16:49:14 <zheng_xu> s/ zheng_xu you broke up on my line  - can you fill in what you said?/ or json data structure example that could give us a more clear image about what Canonical Manifest looks like?
16:49:26 <laurentlemeur> exemple of a graphical ToC : https://about.canva.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/11/table-of-contents-.png
16:49:39 <Rachel> dauwhe: are we conflating brief TOC and actual content?
16:50:04 <ivan> q+
16:50:08 <Rachel> ...are we basically going back to epub2 with an NCX
16:50:14 <duga> q+
16:50:24 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:50:27 <Rachel> ...I'm concerned we're undoing work from epub3
16:50:45 <tzviya> +1 to dave's concerns
16:50:48 <Rachel> ivan: the current spec is silent on this
16:51:19 <tzviya> q+
16:51:25 <laudrain> -1 to Dave’s concern, sorry
16:51:51 <Rachel> ...my feeling is that WP does not need to make any additional statement about this
16:51:56 <Rachel> q+
16:51:58 <tzviya> ack duga
16:52:14 <Rachel> duga: Garth isn't here, so I'm going to speak for him
16:52:32 <Rachel> ...everyone gives us an NCX and  NAV
16:52:51 <Rachel> ...I don't think it would be impossible for those books to make a machine readable TOC
16:53:01 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:53:09 <ivan> ack tzviya
16:53:17 <Rachel> tzviya: the navigation is what makes the WP more accessible
16:53:19 <tzviya> ack Rachel
16:53:49 <Hadrien> let's agree to disagree then, I don't think EPUB3 truly succeeded in creating something that's good for both rendering and machine readable use cases
16:54:15 <josh> q+
16:54:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to rachel: complex navigation is part of the content (it actually often has text, explanation, enrichment) that would not be in a <nav>
16:55:18 <Rachel> ivan: the manifest contains the reference to the resource where the TOC is but it doesn't require any structure
16:55:29 <Rachel> ...it doesn't even require TOC presence
16:55:46 <Rachel> ...do what you want with what you find there
16:55:56 <George> q+
16:56:23 <Rachel> tzviya: let's continue this discussion next week
16:56:33 <josh> q-
16:57:08 <Rachel> tzviya: we should also discuss Issue 276 (Can TOC refer to items outside of default reading order)
16:57:24 <Rachel> ...remember it is also time to talk about TPAC
16:57:32 <George> q+
16:57:40 <Rachel> ...ivan has opened a google doc for suggestions
16:57:40 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit?usp=sharing
16:58:54 <Rachel> George: I signed up and there are several other meetings (like MathML) - should we make a plan about how to represent publishing in these relevant meetings?
17:00:04 <rkwright> Tzviya can't be in two places at once?  How disappointing...
17:00:39 <Rachel> tzviya: thanks all
17:00:44 <Rachel> ... read github!
17:00:48 <Rachel> Bye!
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17:01:21 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/20-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:21 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:01:21 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:01:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:01:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ivan, tzviya, dauwhe, Rachel, gpellegrino, jasminemulliken, George, romain, laudrain, Vlad, zheng_xu, bigbluehat, dkaplan,
17:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
17:01:25 <Zakim> ... makoto, Bill_Kasdorf, franco, josh, Avneesh, Chris_Maden, clapierre, duga, rkwright, BenSchroeter, JunGamo, Tim_Cole, caitlingebhard, laurentlemeur