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08:26:52 <SimonCox> rrsagent, make logs public
08:27:12 <SimonCox> meeting: DCAT team 2018-08-02
08:27:21 <SimonCox> Chair: SimonCox
08:27:40 <SimonCox> regrets: alejandra
08:27:46 <SimonCox> regrets: Riccardo
08:27:53 <SimonCox> regrets: Jaro
08:32:20 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
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08:32:47 <PWinstanley> present+
08:35:07 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
08:35:15 <DaveBrowning> Present+
08:37:39 <SimonCox> present+
08:39:04 <SimonCox> scribe: pw
08:39:08 <SimonCox> scribe: PWinstanley
08:39:24 <roba> present+
08:39:27 <PWinstanley> meeting: DCAT Weekly Meeting
08:39:42 <PWinstanley> Topic: admin
08:39:55 <PWinstanley> confirming the agenda
08:40:47 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
08:40:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/02-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
08:41:45 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: issue on UoM for byteSize still outstanding
08:42:18 <SimonCox>  q?
08:42:43 <PWinstanley> action: SimonCox to contact Alejandra about the UoM
08:42:43 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
08:42:51 <SimonCox> Topic: wasGeneratedBy
08:42:57 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/312
08:43:16 <SimonCox> see preview https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue71-simon/dcat/index.html#Property:dataset_wasgeneratedby
08:43:26 <SimonCox> and https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue71-simon/dcat/index.html#examples-dataset-provenance
08:45:16 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: wasGeneratedBy was added to the list of properties applicable to Dataset
08:47:15 <PWinstanley> ... the proposed Project ontology isn't mentioned directly because specification is out of scope
08:47:23 <SimonCox> q?
08:47:27 <PWinstanley> ... Any comments?
08:48:20 <PWinstanley> ... at 5.8 there is a trimmed down version of the example I used earlier
08:48:49 <PWinstanley> ... I've also drawn attention to the other starting-point PROV properties and we need to decide if they are going to be included in the normative spec
08:49:11 <PWinstanley> ... the full example remains to be written
08:50:00 <SimonCox> q?
08:50:06 <PWinstanley> s/full example/full chapter/
08:50:31 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
08:50:42 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
08:50:59 <PWinstanley> ... This proposed execution of the resolution from last week's meeting should be reviewed over this week and discussed in full next week
08:51:03 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue71-simon/dcat/index.html#examples-dataset-provenance
08:51:54 <PWinstanley> proposed: accept minutes
08:51:57 <SimonCox> Topic: accept minutes from last week
08:52:08 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2018/07/26-dxwgdcat-minutes
08:52:09 <SimonCox> +1
08:52:28 <SimonCox> q?
08:52:33 <roba> +1
08:52:47 <PWinstanley> +1
08:52:49 <AndreaPerego> +1
08:53:02 <DaveBrowning> +1
08:53:10 <SimonCox> Topic: managing the 2pwd
08:53:18 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
08:53:24 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:53:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/02-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
08:53:27 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/milestone/13
08:53:49 <SimonCox> q?
08:54:07 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: DaveBrowning  is concerned that we don't have owners for the issues and this is required to push ahead on the second draft
08:55:02 <SimonCox> q?
08:55:38 <PWinstanley> roba: the default position is that the Chair has responsibility for open issues
08:56:39 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: we are close to closing #1.  Closing #2 will allow us to close #3.  We will end up with c. 5 that still need effort, and they are large issues
08:57:14 <SimonCox> q?
08:57:40 <SimonCox> q?
08:57:41 <AndreaPerego> Not me.
08:57:43 <PWinstanley> ... My view is that the list is aspirational, and we will make a second draft anyway - the strategy we took for the first was we were showing direction.  We can do the same for draft 2 so that people have a target to comment on.  I'm relaxed that we will get the majority of the items, and any left out will be included in the next sprint
08:57:53 <AndreaPerego> +1
08:57:55 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: I'm OK with that approach
08:58:00 <AndreaPerego> s/Not me.//
08:58:35 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.08.02
08:58:38 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
08:58:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/02-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
08:59:08 <SimonCox> Topic: mailing list comments
08:59:29 <SimonCox> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Apr/0001.html
09:00:36 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: we now have an issue based on this comment
09:00:51 <PWinstanley> ... included in issue #259
09:01:06 <PWinstanley> ... We should deal with it as part of that issue
09:01:12 <SimonCox> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Jul/0000.html
09:02:05 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: This comes from the Australian Data Commons
09:02:26 <PWinstanley> ... there are some issues relating to how we are proposing to deal with services
09:03:24 <PWinstanley> roba: this one comes down to whether or not the client would realise that the endpoint is used in different contexts
09:03:45 <PWinstanley> ...  if the data is a catalogue then it is a data discovery service
09:03:56 <SimonCox> Need to clarify that a single URL/endPoint might be both a download + discovery + transformation service
09:04:46 <PWinstanley> ... but if you characterise the catalogue as a dataset then it will have the same endpoint.  The interpretation is a matter of perspective
09:05:20 <roba> q+
09:05:32 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: the 3rd point is about the general relationships between datasets - something that we need to still fully work through
09:05:42 <SimonCox> ack roba
09:06:28 <PWinstanley> roba: the point about catalogues is that they can be viewed as data sources, but there isn't a distinction of their behaviour as a data source vs as a catalogue
09:06:45 <PWinstanley> ... it comes down to the profile/s supported
09:07:36 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: in the overview figure in the doc, one of the things we realised from Genoa is that a catalogue is a special case of a dataset - in Fig1 it is a subclass
09:08:25 <PWinstanley> ... but I've not fully thought through the inheritance of all the properties.  We should supress some - esp those inherited from Resource
09:08:42 <SimonCox> some housekeeping required to acknowledge inheritance of properties from Resource
09:09:50 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: going back to the original question, we need to complete the documentation about the Resource and DataService  where the narrative is not yet completed
09:10:05 <SimonCox> zero to many resources? https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/81
09:10:13 <PWinstanley> ... Finally, on the cardinality , it is related to #81
09:11:12 <PWinstanley> ... we still need to complete this
09:11:12 <PWinstanley> ... in the 'bag of files' work we included hasPart initially, but removed it for clarity and to avoid clash with the prov:derivedFrom
09:11:15 <SimonCox> q?
09:11:38 <PWinstanley> roba: there is more than one way to do this, but we need to provide guidance on the 'best' way
09:11:53 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: in the pull request I've made 3 changes
09:13:00 <PWinstanley> roba: examples will strengthen the guidance - we need to help people with recursive patterns
09:13:02 <DaveBrowning> +1 to providing strong steer in guidance..
09:13:39 <SimonCox> q?
09:13:53 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: all the issues covered in this last comment in the public list are now in the issue tracker
09:14:20 <SimonCox> Topic: held over topics
09:14:26 <SimonCox> - finer-grained semantics
09:14:48 <PWinstanley> roba: One of the challenges with finer grained semantics is the bottomless pit aspect, and someone will feel that it doesn't cover exactly what they want
09:15:03 <SimonCox> q?
09:15:12 <PWinstanley> ... a lot of it comes down to compliance with the requirements of the particular project.
09:15:24 <SimonCox> q+
09:15:41 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
09:16:05 <PWinstanley> ... use of dct:conformsTo is a useful extension point, but anything further is a point of pain
09:16:05 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: are you roba suggesting that this is in the profile?
09:16:21 <DaveBrowning> q+
09:17:07 <PWinstanley> roba: we need to be clearer about the role of application profiles to give a recommendation about using this route to declare interoperability settings.  We will find it difficult to make any other recommendation
09:17:13 <SimonCox> ack DaveBrowning
09:17:50 <SimonCox> q+ to ask if we can provide any guidance about specializing dcat:theme?
09:18:33 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: i agree with roba .  in the other issues we have needs for describing finer-grained semantics, but I'm worried that discussion on subsetting might go the same way (bottomless pit)
09:19:40 <PWinstanley> ... I agree with the basic direction, but we need to watch that if we say only a little about finer grained semantics, we might not be able to say much about other things
09:20:08 <PWinstanley> ... it is not yet obvious that we have done enough to decouple subsetting, versioning and finer-grained semantics
09:20:28 <PWinstanley> ... I am happy with the approach , but we need to pay attention to the consequentials
09:21:44 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
09:21:46 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to ask if we can provide any guidance about specializing dcat:theme?
09:21:53 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Data-aspects---semantics
09:21:54 <PWinstanley> roba: where we have first-class concerns they will capture info on semantics.  we need to point to the key semantics captured in some of these issues (subsetting, etc) and we need to make a list of recommendations but make it clear where people are "off piste"
09:23:34 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: I put together a wiki page early on - data cube, observation level, etc.  there is a diagram (application profile) which is cute, and makes sense, but it needs to follow the general approach for profiles that we are developing
09:24:03 <PWinstanley> ... Do we have/Should we include something like this diagram?
09:24:57 <PWinstanley> roba: because we are discussing the profiles of the dataset rather than dcat, so the dataset profile should cover this, not the profile of dcat
09:25:47 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: the properties added to Dataset are the ones people use to search, but in dcat there is only Theme or Keyword
09:26:42 <PWinstanley> roba: describing your dataset and identifying those elements that are brought up into the catalogue is something that it would be worth developing coherent guidance on
09:27:07 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: makx has always said 'more documentation', and this diagram is an illustration
09:28:11 <PWinstanley> roba: i think it is a good idea to write up as an example of how to use DCAT, and also to point out that it is also a way of describing the dataset itself in the profile doc, and we need to ensure that the profile doc uses the same illustration
09:29:06 <PWinstanley> roba: there should be consistency between the discovery part and the data description part w.r.t. canonical vocabulary etc.
09:31:04 <PWinstanley> roba: from an alternative perspective, the RDF cube vocab operates at a different level of abstraction - it is a reflection mechanism, talking about the properties in the dataset
09:31:20 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: the sosa properties might never be mentioned in the data
09:32:11 <PWinstanley> roba: in the cube the dataset description gives the dimensions and controlled vocabularies used, and might be the only one in the W3C canon that allows description of the dataset structure
09:33:13 <PWinstanley> q?
09:34:59 <PWinstanley> +1 to the requirement for consistency and the focus on end user re: vocabulary etc
09:35:58 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:35:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/02-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
09:36:18 <PWinstanley> bye!!
09:36:42 <PWinstanley> regrets+ Alejandra
09:36:47 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:36:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/08/02-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
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