14:54:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:54:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/07/27-pbgsc-irc
14:54:09 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:54:09 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee Telco
14:54:09 <ivan> Chair: laudrain
14:54:09 <ivan> Date: 2018-07-27
14:54:09 <ivan> Regrets+
14:58:17 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbgsc
14:58:38 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #pbgsc
14:58:49 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:49 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
14:58:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see dauwhe, laudrain, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, Rachel, Karen, tzviya
14:58:55 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
14:59:04 <dauwhe> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Steering Committee
14:59:11 <dauwhe> Date: 2018-07-27
14:59:27 <dauwhe> Chair: laudrain
14:59:44 <tzviya> present+
14:59:49 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
14:59:54 <ivan> present+
15:00:34 <laudrain> present+
15:00:37 <dauwhe> present+ George
15:02:35 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:02:51 <garth> present+ Garth
15:04:12 <dauwhe> laudrain: let's start
15:04:30 <laudrain> Topic: EPUB 3.2
15:04:34 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:05:03 <laudrain> Dave: CG 3.2 last meeting, start wide review
15:05:16 <liisamk> present+
15:05:23 <laudrain> … sections to to review assigned to dfiferent people
15:05:45 <laudrain> … widespread to the entire eco-system
15:05:55 <laudrain> … 2 months process
15:06:17 <laudrain> … PBG to approve the final doc
15:07:14 <laudrain> all: resonable
15:07:38 <laudrain> Dave: get commitments from people
15:07:50 <laudrain> … where will the report will be?
15:07:51 <ivan> q+
15:08:06 <laudrain> … liking to other doc like a11y specs
15:08:14 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:08:33 <laudrain> Ivan: CG not published on /TR
15:08:55 <laudrain> … will publish it in the rigth place
15:09:10 <laudrain> … in W3C space
15:09:22 <laudrain> q+
15:09:50 <laudrain> Dave: /Publishing/EPUB…
15:10:33 <laudrain> Luc: Will you have a consensus call in the CG?
15:11:04 <laudrain> Dave: ask for a vote in CG meeting
15:11:18 <laudrain> George: where to put comments ?
15:11:24 <laudrain> ack laudrain
15:12:40 <laudrain> Dave: in CG, try to track issues and get consensus
15:13:38 <dauwhe> laudrain: there was a question on the mailing list about epub tests
15:13:41 <laudrain> Topic: EPUB Test Suite
15:13:45 <ivan> present+ liisamk
15:13:58 <dauwhe> liisamk: I think billk answered the query
15:14:04 <tzviya> q+
15:14:10 <laudrain> ack tzviya
15:14:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm not sure I agree with billk's answer
15:14:37 <dauwhe> ... there are two test suites right now, epubtest.org and epubcheck (?)
15:14:46 <dauwhe> ... we haven't made an official decision
15:14:54 <dauwhe> ... has DAISY taken over epubtest.org?
15:15:04 <laudrain> q?
15:15:06 <dauwhe> ... it's certainly not part of PWG
15:15:29 <dauwhe> George: as we know, epubtest.org was a joint effort with BISG, DAISY, and IDPF
15:15:39 <dauwhe> ... DAISY is moving forward briskly with a11y testing
15:15:48 <dauwhe> ... but the mainstream testing is not updated or maintained
15:16:01 <dauwhe> ... we don't own the domain, and we're not paying for hosting, although we could take that over
15:16:06 <dauwhe> ... we're still trying to sort it out
15:16:13 <dauwhe> ... BISG doesn't know what their approach would be
15:16:26 <dauwhe> ... IEEE is interested in these kinds of testing activities
15:16:29 <tzviya> q+
15:16:30 <dauwhe> ivan: IEEE?
15:16:42 <dauwhe> George: they're using EPUB for education and interactivity and need to do testing
15:16:50 <dauwhe> ... nothing formal, but we're leaving the door open
15:17:10 <dauwhe> ... DAISY has been told to move forward briskly with a11y, and don't let other things stop that
15:17:11 <laudrain> ack tzviya
15:17:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: We're all familiar with the problems of epubtest
15:17:31 <dauwhe> ... has anyone looked into automated testing?
15:17:34 <dauwhe> q+
15:17:39 <liisamk> q+
15:17:47 <laudrain> ack Dave
15:18:25 <laudrain> Dave: conversation 2 years with Jeff?? about tests for CSS
15:18:32 <ivan> q+
15:18:40 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:18:49 <laudrain> … need to continue for REC track
15:18:53 <dauwhe> s/Jeff??/Geoffrey Sneddon/
15:18:57 <laudrain> ack dauwhe
15:19:02 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:19:03 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:19:10 <dauwhe> liisamk: part of my perspective on why we didn't get farther is that it's hard to maintain and hard to automate
15:19:18 <dauwhe> ... it's very subjective and visual
15:19:27 <dauwhe> ... particularly when you're talking about reading systems
15:19:41 <dauwhe> ... and when there are differences between sideloading and ingestion
15:19:47 <laudrain> ack ivan
15:20:02 <dauwhe> ivan: from w3c process point of view, there is no obligation for automated testing
15:20:56 <dauwhe> ... testing is an obligation, as is a report, but it doesn't have to go through automated test harnesses
15:21:41 <dauwhe> laudrain: is that clear for you, tzviya
15:21:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: it's clear that there's not a home for non-a11y tests
15:22:16 <dauwhe> liisamk: we should ask what Ric is looking for
15:22:29 <dauwhe> ... we're not clear on why he's frustrated
15:23:01 <dauwhe> liisamk: I can contact Ric
15:23:16 <dauwhe> Topic: RFP on epubcheck
15:23:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have responses to the RFP. review commitee is looking at them
15:23:51 <dauwhe> ... the reviewers are Liza, Tobias, Brady, and Romain
15:23:59 <dauwhe> ... we will meet with them on August 9
15:24:16 <Rachel> present+
15:24:36 <dauwhe> ... we want them to make a recommendation to the steering committee
15:24:39 <laudrain> q+
15:24:44 <dauwhe> ... by the following week
15:24:56 <laudrain> q-
15:24:56 <dauwhe> ... we will decide by the end of August
15:25:15 <dauwhe> ... we get a rec from them by aug 15
15:25:20 <dauwhe> ... decide on the 24th
15:25:25 <dauwhe> ... announce on 27th
15:25:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: are we still getting proposals?
15:26:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: no, it closed on the 15th of July.
15:26:07 <liisamk> q+
15:26:09 <dauwhe> ... we received three proposals
15:26:17 <dauwhe> ... the schedules are really different
15:26:23 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:26:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: they are three very different proposals
15:26:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: are you anticipating a fourth offer that hasn't been submitted?
15:27:04 <dauwhe> laudrain: no, we were expecting something from EDRLab, but they decided not to
15:27:27 <dauwhe> ... we are on schedule.
15:27:40 <liisamk> q+
15:27:44 <dauwhe> George: is there any thought about negotiating, or is it just accept/reject?
15:28:01 <dauwhe> laudrain: I think it should be possible to negotiate
15:28:39 <dauwhe> ... we do want epubcheck to work with epub 3.2 as soon as possible
15:29:17 <dauwhe> ... we want 3.2 and epubcheck and epub2 sunset to be released at the same time, by the end of the year
15:29:41 <dauwhe> ... epub2 sunset doc is stable, we should propose to the PBG
15:30:04 <garth> q?
15:30:13 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:30:14 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:30:16 <garth> ack liisamk
15:30:25 <tzviya> q+
15:30:36 <garth> ack tzviya
15:30:38 <dauwhe> liisamk: do we have any thoughts about guidance for the committee about how to evaluate the proposals
15:30:39 <laudrain> ack tzviya
15:30:42 <garth> q+
15:30:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: I would prefer not to give guidance; that's why we have a review committee
15:31:08 <dauwhe> ... We chose them because of their knowledge
15:31:17 <Rachel> q+
15:31:22 <dauwhe> liisamk: my only worry is about them choosing something that we can't maintain long-term
15:31:23 <laudrain> ack garth
15:32:04 <dauwhe> garth: the proposals do talk about this
15:32:17 <dauwhe> ... and the committee does have the resources to evaluate that
15:32:41 <laudrain> q+
15:32:45 <dauwhe> garth: re: negotiations; we shouldn't argue about price; we could negotiate on milestones etc
15:32:52 <laudrain> ack Rachel
15:32:58 <dauwhe> Rachel: I agree with garth and tzviya
15:33:05 <dauwhe> ... what I see from this group is a recommendation
15:33:15 <dauwhe> ... so we can take their feedback and decide as a committee
15:33:53 <dauwhe> ... it's ok if we have different priorities than the committee, but we shouldn't try to influence things before then
15:34:13 <dauwhe> laudrain: I have confidence in the committee
15:34:13 <laudrain> q?
15:34:26 <laudrain> ack laudrain
15:34:35 <dauwhe> Topic: epubcheck fundraising
15:34:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have a document with language. any comments? We need to comment before tonight.
15:35:01 <tzviya> no, this is not the first draft, luc
15:35:07 <liisamk> q+
15:35:20 <laudrain> ack liisamk
15:35:26 <dauwhe> liisamk: i want to follow up on the email about maintenence
15:35:41 <dauwhe> ... the way I read it, it doesn't look like we're asking for a year over year committment
15:35:44 <tzviya> q+
15:35:52 <laudrain> ack tzviya
15:36:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: we should look to the future for a maintenence fund
15:36:14 <dauwhe> ... the proposals we have are not long-term
15:36:19 <laudrain> q+
15:36:25 <dauwhe> ... I would love long-term committments for funding
15:36:32 <dauwhe> q+
15:36:48 <dauwhe> ... maybe we want to change this for a long-term committment?
15:37:26 <dauwhe> laudrain: I just wanted to say that I didn't feel like the long-term or short term was clear
15:37:53 <dauwhe> ack laudrain
15:38:02 <liisamk> q+
15:38:19 <dauwhe> George: looking forward to WP and EPUB4, I think we're going to need the equivalent of epubcheck in that space
15:38:29 <laudrain> ack dave
15:38:36 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:38:59 <laudrain> Dave: not ask for long term money before we can prove it’s done
15:39:04 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:39:35 <dauwhe> liisamk: I agree with Dave, maybe we should put someething in doc that we want to fund the next X amount of time--2 years?
15:39:45 <dauwhe> ... we will look for ongoing support in the future
15:39:59 <dauwhe> laudrain: that's what I wanted to say
15:40:20 <dauwhe> liisamk: do we agree we want two years?
15:40:38 <dauwhe> laudrain: I agree
15:40:55 <dauwhe> ... we should say that the fundraising is for an effort that lasts for two years.
15:41:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: can someone propose language in the doc?
15:41:51 <dauwhe> laudrain: I can
15:42:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: I need to give this to W3C comms team so they can prepare website
15:42:27 <dauwhe> s/laudrain: I can/liisamk: I'll do it/
15:42:37 <dauwhe> George: there's no mention of $1k
15:42:57 <dauwhe> liisamk: maybe a mention of $1k and say that no amount is too small
15:43:54 <dauwhe> laudrain: should we change or leave as-is?
15:44:01 <dauwhe> george: i don't feel strongly
15:44:29 <dauwhe> George: are we going to post a thanks on a web site? Should that be in the doc?
15:44:34 <dauwhe> liisamk: that's a good suggestion
15:45:08 <dauwhe> ... "contributors will be acknowledged on the epubcheck home page"
15:45:13 <dauwhe> laudrain: it should be added
15:46:02 <dauwhe> ... I had another topic but we already talked about epub2 sunset doc. I'll look at beginning of next week and propose to BG
15:46:23 <dauwhe> ... do you have any objection to look at this once more?
15:46:38 <dauwhe> liisamk: it's ok to look again
15:46:54 <dauwhe> laudrain: one more round, and we'll speak to PBG in two-ish weeks
15:47:06 <dauwhe> ... a report from the road map task force
15:47:21 <dauwhe> ivan: there are two things
15:47:41 <ivan> https://www.w3.org/TR/wpub/
15:47:52 <dauwhe> ... PWG has posted a new update of wpub, including manifest with schema.org
15:47:58 <dauwhe> ... we should announce in BG
15:48:21 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:48:33 <dauwhe> ivan:  then we can put this on the agenda for tuesday
15:48:53 <dauwhe> liisamk: there should be an introduction
15:50:16 <garth> q+
15:50:18 <tzviya> q+
15:50:42 <laudrain> ack garth
15:51:22 <dauwhe> garth: as we talked about the draft fundraising doc, we have 45k already raised
15:51:42 <dauwhe> ... we should ask people on this call if we can get some more committments
15:51:47 <laudrain> q+
15:51:58 <laudrain> ack tzviya
15:52:29 <dauwhe> tzviya: (redacted)
15:52:53 <laudrain> q-
15:57:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: I'll send an agenda for PBG on Monday morning French time
15:57:51 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone
15:57:56 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: draft minutes
15:57:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/27-pbgsc-minutes.html dauwhe
15:58:01 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/27-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan
15:58:01 <ivan> zakim, bye
15:58:01 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:58:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:58:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, laudrain, George, Garth, liisamk, Rachel
15:58:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
15:58:02 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: make logs public