IRC log of dxwgdcat on 2018-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:22:05 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
08:22:13 [Zakim]
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08:22:40 [SimonCox]
Meeting: DCAT 2018-07-26
08:22:44 [SimonCox]
chair: SimonCox
08:23:02 [PWinstanley]
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08:24:47 [SimonCox]
regrets: Alejandra
08:31:50 [SimonCox]
08:34:18 [roba]
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08:35:07 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
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08:36:03 [DaveBrowning]
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08:36:27 [PWinstanley]
08:36:32 [roba]
08:36:33 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
08:37:31 [DaveBrowning]
08:38:55 [roba]
scribenick: roba
08:38:58 [SimonCox]
scribe: roba
08:40:38 [SimonCox]
08:41:20 [SimonCox]
Minutes of last meeting
08:42:34 [roba]
proposed: accept Minutes of last meeting
08:42:54 [PWinstanley]
08:42:56 [roba]
08:42:56 [DaveBrowning]
08:42:58 [roba]
08:42:58 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
08:43:02 [SimonCox]
08:43:04 [roba]
resolved: Minutes of last meeting
08:43:25 [SimonCox]
Catalogues in which dataset is an undifferentiated set of files Consolidated PR or see draft ready to merge
08:44:19 [roba]
DavidBrowning will merge
08:44:45 [SimonCox]
Topic: Minor issue
08:45:08 [SimonCox]
08:47:04 [roba]
SimonCox: discuss complete docu to close
08:48:02 [roba]
...Question 1: legal for RDF to have multiple types - but should example separate?
08:48:22 [PWinstanley]
I think we should have a simple case and a more complex case as illustrations
08:48:49 [SimonCox]
08:48:49 [roba]
...Question 2: how to handle when type is not a resolvable URI - couple of examples shown - what do people want
08:49:31 [DaveBrowning]
08:49:34 [PWinstanley]
I'm slightly allergic to blank nodes too
08:49:38 [SimonCox]
ack DaveBrowning
08:50:34 [roba]
DaveBrowning: quite like example
08:50:55 [roba]
...blank nodes (squirming noises...) can live with
08:51:36 [roba]
SimonCox: in as PR \
08:51:38 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
ah, you are possibly talking about those constructs: 'dct:type[ rdfs:label "Text" ; dct:source "DataCite resource types" ; ] ;' -> what is the minimal model/predicates to go into the node to become a "valid" content type indicator?
08:51:58 [roba]
08:52:22 [roba]
DaveBrowning: if use blank nodes should be in a coherent way
08:52:37 [SimonCox]
ack roba
08:53:24 [PWinstanley]
I think we need to be pedagogical too - people need to be able to learn from these documents. We are not writing them (only) for experts
08:53:37 [SimonCox]
Action: DaveBrowning to smooth out examples, including dct:type example, as part of editorial sweep
08:53:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
08:56:31 [SimonCox]
08:56:43 [roba]
roba: is this a qualified forms example - and how do we "be coherent" in approach whenever it comes up?
08:58:26 [roba]
...architectural choice - can you rely on object URI dereferencing to get metadata or do we inject nodes to hold metadata?
08:58:51 [roba]
SimonCox: there is no answer at this point..
08:58:52 [alejandra]
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08:59:05 [PWinstanley]
i think we can tidy with editing
08:59:11 [roba]
...can we merge and tidy up in editing
08:59:16 [alejandra]
#Hi all, I'm travelling and unable to connect to audio
08:59:35 [SimonCox]
Proposed: merge
08:59:38 [SimonCox]
09:00:03 [roba]
+0 (not over details)
09:00:11 [DaveBrowning]
09:00:17 [SimonCox]
... and tidy up doco in editting later per action on DaveBrowning
09:00:27 [PWinstanley]
09:00:41 [roba]
resolved: merge
09:01:09 [roba]
ACTION: DaveBrowning to merge
09:01:09 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:01:16 [SimonCox]
topic: Initial examples of use of PROV for dataset Project Context
09:01:32 [SimonCox]
09:02:06 [SimonCox]
09:02:29 [AndreaPerego]
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09:02:40 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
09:02:54 [SimonCox]
09:03:01 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, make logs world
09:03:08 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
09:03:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndreaPerego
09:03:35 [SimonCox]
09:04:25 [roba]
09:04:32 [SimonCox]
ack roba
09:04:47 [SimonCox]
Use of prov:wasGeneratedBy ?
09:05:29 [DaveBrowning]
09:06:32 [DaveBrowning]
09:07:11 [SimonCox]
Alternative options:
09:07:14 [PWinstanley]
With Simon's proposed Project Ontology, that is only one of several in this area: So we need to be careful not to hard wire that into the DCAt work
09:07:34 [SimonCox]
1. recommend use of prov::wasGeneratedBy, with potential side-effects
09:08:00 [SimonCox]
2. 'clone' wasGeneratedBy in dcat: NS, and manage alignemtns as much as desired
09:08:04 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to using prov:wasGeneratedBy
09:08:39 [SimonCox]
09:08:47 [PWinstanley]
+1 to option 1
09:10:21 [SimonCox]
09:10:46 [PWinstanley]
09:10:47 [roba]
roba: can we just warn people of prov: and its potential entailment baggage?
09:11:42 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to guidance on using prov:
09:11:58 [DaveBrowning]
09:12:19 [SimonCox]
ack PWinstanley
09:12:54 [alejandra]
I'm not clear about the potential side-effects, but in principle I favour to reuse prov:wasGeneratedBy rather than 'clone' it
09:13:30 [roba]
PWinstanley: reason for using prov: ... if we clone our own we end up with nuanced versions and this "spins away" from Linked Data towards separet dialects of RDF
09:13:35 [SimonCox]
ack DaveBrowning
09:14:36 [SimonCox]
Proposed: recommend use of prov:wasGeneratedBy to give dataset context
09:14:46 [roba]
DaveBrowning: agrees.. prov is a good tool or not - if need something very different use it
09:14:51 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to PWinstanley & DaveBrowning
09:14:53 [SimonCox]
09:14:58 [DaveBrowning]
09:14:59 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
I do not see troubles with the axiomatization of prov:wasGeneratedBy, since prov:Entity is abstract; but is there a way to express the "funding" Action?
09:15:00 [roba]
09:15:06 [PWinstanley]
09:15:11 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
09:15:40 [roba]
Resolved: recommend use of prov:wasGeneratedBy to give dataset context
09:15:43 [SimonCox]
I would say that funding is a property of the activity (one step removed from the dataset)
09:15:51 [roba]
09:16:06 [SimonCox]
prov is very activity-oriented !
09:16:20 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
ok and the founder is an Agent
09:16:23 [roba]
roba: and this is another qualified forms problem...
09:17:28 [SimonCox]
... please look at Project ontology
09:17:57 [roba]
09:18:49 [DaveBrowning]
09:19:11 [SimonCox]
ack roba
09:19:15 [roba]
...a straw man - no intention this is a recomendation - possible Note
09:19:45 [SimonCox]
in this proposal project is a specialization of prov:Activity
09:19:56 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
@Simon, the Project ontology is really interesting - I could imagine there are similar initiatives to describe (research) projects, e.g.
09:20:45 [SimonCox]
yes Jaroslav_Pullmann - also see list here
09:21:56 [PWinstanley]
09:21:58 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
@Simon: "Project is an Activity", fits fine with the definition "something that occurs over a period of time and acts upon or with entities"
09:22:09 [SimonCox]
ack DaveBrowning
09:23:47 [roba]
roba: how much should be try to provide options to plug identified holes in available vocabularies to meet identified requirements:
09:23:53 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
.. just out of interest: the the project funder (e.g. EC) would be related via the project ontology, e.g. proj:hasSponsor ?
09:24:56 [roba]
DaveBrowning: talks about related work (please enter details....) .. quite like it - boss would expect model closer to specific needs
09:25:58 [roba]
SimonCox: I work for an org that works via projects - others work on continuous production of data, governments may work on services
09:26:57 [roba]
...answering Jaro - previous projects have been through lens of academic grants (holding sides and chortling...)
09:27:19 [roba]
...shows pattern works not just for data generation
09:27:20 [SimonCox]
See Figure 3. for funding pattern
09:27:31 [SimonCox]
(answer to Jaroslav_Pullmann )
09:28:03 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:28:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
09:28:23 [DaveBrowning]
s/please enter details/we publish datasets continually so project is maybe not the best fit but something playing the same role/
09:28:48 [roba]
...back to issue - proposed "wasGeneratedBy" - range is provActivity - time bounded things
09:28:54 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
@Simon, thanks, the "funding" is an important aspect of the provenance (~ influence)
09:29:26 [roba]
roba: potentially time-bounded, but not forced to be so?
09:29:44 [roba]
SimonCox: examples are all "instantaneous"
09:30:02 [SimonCox]
s/examples/examples in PROV literature/
09:30:09 [roba]
DaveBrowning: looked into this too... more later this year
09:30:28 [AndreaPerego]
09:30:34 [SimonCox]
ack AndreaPerego
09:31:06 [AndreaPerego]
09:32:11 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:32:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
09:32:14 [roba]
AndreaPerego: evidence to support the apprach
09:32:29 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
09:32:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PWinstanley
09:33:22 [PWinstanley]
09:33:59 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
bye, thanks for an interesting meeting!
09:34:09 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
09:35:45 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
09:35:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndreaPerego