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15:39:50 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:39:50 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:39:50 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:39:50 <ivan> Date: 2018-07-22
15:39:50 <ivan> Regrets+ vlad, bigbluehat, rachel, rdeltour, billk, jmulliken, teenya, tcole
15:39:50 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jul/0035.html
15:39:51 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-07-22: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jul/0035.html
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15:57:06 <tzviya> present+
15:57:16 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:57:22 <ivan> present+ wolfgang, Juan_Corona
15:57:32 <ivan> regrets+ garth
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15:59:57 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:00:00 <JuanCorona> I think I'll need to be more fully immersed to be a scribe again
16:00:04 <JuanCorona> ;)
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16:02:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's get started
16:02:49 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-07-09-pwg.html
16:02:52 <dauwhe> ... welcome back from our far-too-short break
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16:03:03 <dauwhe> ... any comments on the minutes?
16:03:08 <BenWaltersMS> BenWaltersMS has joined #pwg
16:03:12 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved
16:03:16 <BenWaltersMS> present+
16:03:17 <caitlingebhard> caitlingebhard has joined #pwg
16:03:21 <ivan> resolved: meeting of two weeks ago accepted
16:03:23 <dauwhe> Topic: publishing new draft
16:03:27 <Franco> Franco has joined #pwg
16:03:38 <dauwhe> ... we have a few open issues
16:03:59 <Franco> present+
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16:04:12 <caitlingebhard> present+
16:04:15 <laurentlemeur> present+
16:04:24 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/261
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16:04:31 <dauwhe> Github: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/261
16:04:34 <duga> present+
16:04:40 <dauwhe> ... this is cover vs cover-image
16:04:47 <dauwhe> ... look at last comment from Matt
16:04:53 <dauwhe> ... we concerned about the infoset
16:04:57 <dkaplan3> q+
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16:05:42 <dauwhe> ... Matt says we should be concerned with language
16:05:55 <dauwhe> ... so we're just discussing changing language
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16:06:25 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
16:06:27 <dauwhe> ... should we say cover or cover image or cover page
16:06:30 <marisa> present+
16:06:41 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
16:06:43 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: the one thing that has happened in github
16:06:44 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:06:44 <Zakim> Present: dauwhe, ivan, tzviya, wolfgang, Juan_Corona, jbuehler, Avneesh, JuanCorona, wendyreid, dkaplan, laudrain, JunGamo, Hadrien, makoto, jpyle, josh, gpellegrino, George,
16:06:49 <Zakim> ... BenWaltersMS, Franco, caitlingebhard, laurentlemeur, duga, marisa
16:06:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see marisa, derekjackson, ReinaldoFerraz, lsullam, rkwright, duga, laurentlemeur, Franco, caitlingebhard, BenWaltersMS, Makoto, josh, cmaden2, Hadrien, JunGamo, EvanOwens,
16:06:49 <Zakim> ... laudrain, wendyreid, JuanCorona, jbuehler, George, Karen, dkaplan3, Avneesh, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, wolfgang, dauwhe, tzviya, plinss, Rachel, github-bot, astearns, bigbluehat,
16:06:50 <dauwhe> ... the people who wanted a discrete cover page
16:06:50 <Zakim> ... jyasskin
16:07:06 <rkwright> present+
16:07:12 <dauwhe> ... I think the people in github would be fine with cover image
16:07:14 <derekjackson> present+
16:07:21 <ivan> present+ ReinaldoFerraz
16:07:21 <ivan> present+ lsullam
16:07:21 <dauwhe> ... when I gave the whole "here are some guidelines" thing
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16:07:38 <dauwhe> ... I think people bring up stuff that doesn't need to be in the infoset
16:07:42 <harriett> +
16:07:43 <ivan> present+ harriett
16:07:52 <dauwhe> ... it's fine to document these extra things
16:07:57 <tzviya> q?
16:08:03 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:08:11 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:08:14 <dauwhe> ... so we should go back to the github issue later
16:08:32 <dauwhe> ... I think my comment addressed everything except for the infoset Q about a cover that is not a cover image
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16:08:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: perhaps we can open a new issue
16:09:09 <dauwhe> ... the proposal that you had, can you sum it up?
16:09:17 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: my proposal for infoset purposes
16:09:29 <dauwhe> ... I was going based on the assumption that because
16:09:44 <dauwhe> ... Ivan reminded us that at the F2F there needed to be the idea of a cover, that might not be image
16:09:59 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we need both cover and cover-image
16:10:14 <josh> q+
16:10:27 <dauwhe> ... but if people feel strongly about a cover that is not an image that still needs to be in the infoset
16:10:40 <dauwhe> ... the reason people want cover images in infoset is for shelf view, etc
16:10:50 <dauwhe> ... that reasoning doesn't apply to a cover
16:10:58 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:11:07 <tzviya> ack josh
16:11:11 <dauwhe> ... will anyone go to bat for needing a non-image cover IN THE INFOSET
16:11:42 <dkaplan3> q+
16:11:43 <dauwhe> josh: I would make a strong case for a cover that's not an image because not all content includes imagery
16:12:18 <dauwhe> ... just point to something, and if it's an image then great, if not they could render the html
16:12:21 <dkaplan3> Josh: see https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/261#issuecomment-406696836
16:12:37 <dauwhe> ... for scholarly articles, the cover would be title/author/ journal / issue
16:12:48 <dkaplan3> This comment specs out all of that.
16:12:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's already been mentioned in an issue
16:13:05 <dauwhe> josh: but there are 70 comments
16:13:11 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
16:13:12 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we should have both a cover and cover image
16:13:27 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: we should close issue by saying we define cover-image
16:13:37 <dauwhe> ... discuss elsewhere if we need another type of cover
16:13:57 <dauwhe> ... user agents could assemble image from metadata, wouldn't need html
16:14:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: josh proposed just cover
16:14:15 <dauwhe> ... the publisher can include image OR text in html
16:14:25 <dauwhe> ... the user agent would do some magic to display
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16:14:49 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:14:50 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: I think the magic to display HTML is more than magic to assemble from metadata
16:15:12 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: I put a link to my github comment
16:15:21 <dauwhe> ... for later, when we are writing recs for what UAs should do
16:15:39 <dauwhe> ... we will need to have guidelines for what to do when you don't have a cover
16:15:53 <dauwhe> ... I'm happy with not having both
16:15:59 <dauwhe> ... the diff between Laurent and Josh
16:16:24 <dauwhe> ... in the absence of an image, do we recommend the UA wants to extract metadata and make cover?
16:16:38 <dauwhe> ... or do we think UAs should tried to define a text cover somehow
16:16:42 <dauwhe> ... I would go with Laurent
16:17:04 <dauwhe> ... it's a standard practice now that you get title/creator in shelf view if there's no cover
16:17:30 <wendyreid> q+
16:17:42 <dauwhe> ... if your business case is that it's important to have specific information on the cover, then you should probably actually create an image
16:17:42 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:17:53 <dauwhe> wendyreid: from experience with Kobo, that's what we do
16:18:00 <dauwhe> ... if we have image we use it
16:18:07 <ivan> q+
16:18:14 <dauwhe> ... if there's no image file, then we create cover with metadata
16:18:21 <dauwhe> ... that's very standard
16:18:38 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:18:50 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't understand the controversy
16:18:56 <dauwhe> ... I thought Josh's proposal was fine
16:19:14 <dauwhe> ... there's a cover, if you put image there you get image, if HTML is there you render that
16:19:39 <dauwhe> ... and in the scholarly world, title and author might not be enough
16:19:47 <dauwhe> ... you need standard metadata
16:19:49 <josh> +1 to Ivan expressing my business case better than I did.
16:19:53 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:20:02 <dauwhe> ... I don't understand the problem
16:20:15 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
16:20:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: a reminder that we're only talking about the infoset
16:20:51 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: if we follow josh, it means every UA will have to be able to take an arbitrary HTML file or something else and try to make a cover out of it
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16:21:04 <josh> q+
16:21:05 <dauwhe> ... this puts a burden on user agents
16:21:08 <tzviya> ack josh
16:21:21 <MustlazMS> present+
16:21:25 <dauwhe> josh: I think that UAs should do what they think is best
16:21:36 <dauwhe> ... using this approach, you have something called a cover that points to image or file
16:21:50 <dauwhe> ... if UA doesn't know how to turn html into shelf-view icon, it can still use metadata
16:22:11 <dauwhe> ... we should provide as much guidance as possible to UA, then let UA choose
16:22:32 <George> q+
16:22:52 <tzviya> ack George
16:23:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: we might need to decide to publish without this
16:23:17 <dauwhe> George: just an image is too limiting in terms of looking at the future
16:23:32 <dauwhe> ... I see discussions about VR and innovation in the book space
16:24:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: [1] include cover which could be anything or [2] just a cover image ?
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16:24:17 <laurentlemeur> 2
16:24:21 <dkaplan3> 2
16:24:22 <JuanCorona> 1
16:24:22 <Hadrien> 2
16:24:23 <ivan> 1
16:24:25 <tzviya> 1
16:24:25 <caitlingebhard> 1
16:24:27 <josh> 1
16:24:28 <wendyreid> 1
16:24:28 <derekjackson> 1
16:24:28 <wolfgang> 1
16:24:31 <Franco> 1
16:24:32 <rkwright> 2
16:24:34 <ivan> present+ caitlingebhard
16:24:35 <gpellegrino> 2
16:24:37 <laudrain> 2
16:24:44 <George> 1 cover
16:24:48 <lsullam> 1
16:24:51 <clapierre> 1
16:24:56 <marisa> 1
16:25:02 <ivan> present+ marisa
16:25:06 <jbuehler> 1
16:25:11 <MustlazMS> 1
16:25:12 <rkwright> 1
16:25:18 <dauwhe> tzviya: I see more 1s than 2s
16:25:21 <ivan> q+
16:25:23 <rkwright> I inadvertently entered a 2.
16:25:29 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:25:45 <dauwhe> ivan: I would propose to put there the more permissive approach 1, publish a draft (which isn't final)
16:25:52 <dauwhe> ... and see what the community has to say
16:26:01 <dauwhe> ... we don't have unanimity
16:26:09 <dauwhe> ... this is just a draft
16:26:28 <dauwhe> ... easier to restrict early
16:26:31 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/220
16:26:45 <dauwhe> github: end topic
16:27:08 <dauwhe> github: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/220
16:27:28 <dauwhe> ivan: we had quesiton of direction ltr rtl
16:27:33 <dauwhe> ... trouble expressing in JSON
16:27:58 <dauwhe> ... consensus in discussion that rtl/ltr we don't have other means than fallback on unicode directional markers
16:28:06 <dauwhe> ... and no explicit default direction setting
16:28:13 <dauwhe> ... i think laurentlemeur we have agreement
16:28:14 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: yes
16:28:23 <dauwhe> ivan: a more general issue came up
16:28:28 <dauwhe> ... related to the language setting
16:28:35 <dauwhe> ... there are 2 different things
16:28:48 <dauwhe> ... 1. if I set language in manifest in one of schema.org terms inLanguage
16:29:01 <dauwhe> ... this means I set language for publication at large + text of manifest
16:29:24 <dauwhe> ... individual resournces may not set their own languages, there may be discrepencies
16:29:57 <dauwhe> ... 2 the other appraoch is more complicated
16:30:05 <dauwhe> ... when the manifest is embedded in html
16:30:14 <tzviya> q+
16:30:30 <dauwhe> ... looking at that case it would be logical that the script element with manifest inherits language and dir of entry page
16:30:36 <clapierre> present+
16:30:44 <wolfgang> s/appraoch/approach/
16:30:51 <dauwhe> ... so if it's part of html then I could and maybe should refer to what HTML does
16:31:29 <dauwhe> ... we still say that if you do it that way you're talking about the publication as a whole
16:31:41 <dauwhe> ... when we have an embedded manifest, do we inherit the HTML settings?
16:31:45 <dauwhe> ... or not?
16:32:08 <dauwhe> ... an additional argument... this is one thing from HTML structure that we will inherit
16:32:13 <dauwhe> ... this is the base URL
16:32:42 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:32:46 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:32:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: I put myself on the queue
16:33:05 <dauwhe> ... the schema.org group is aware they have language issues, but they're trying to work it out
16:33:29 <dauwhe> ... they know language on particular tags is a problem
16:33:50 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, the setting of a langague for an individual text is already there
16:34:03 <dauwhe> ... we hope schema.org handles it eventually
16:34:08 <wolfgang> s/langague/language/
16:34:33 <dauwhe> ... the json-ld working group, partly on my instigation, is looking at issues of embedded json-ld
16:34:41 <dauwhe> ... it was non-normative in 1.0
16:35:02 <dauwhe> ... for example, there's no resolution on inheriting baseURL
16:35:11 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
16:35:11 <dauwhe> ... I think that will be resolved in 1.1
16:35:26 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: in fact, here we are trying to do 2 things
16:35:36 <dauwhe> ... the language of publication is descriptive metadata
16:35:51 <dauwhe> ... if we want to infer the language of manifest, that's simple
16:36:02 <dauwhe> ... we can do that in json-ld with @language in context
16:36:16 <dauwhe> ... so we are trying to simplify work of authors
16:36:23 <dauwhe> ... by inferring from publication language
16:36:42 <dauwhe> ... and maybe we should inherit from html if manifest is embedded
16:36:57 <dauwhe> ... but that makes processing of detached and embedded manifests different
16:37:33 <dauwhe> ... this is why we should infer language from publication language
16:37:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: what q are we answering?
16:37:51 <dauwhe> ivan: the current text needs to be rewritten
16:38:07 <dauwhe> ... at least for embedded version there are two ways of rewriting
16:38:34 <dauwhe> ... if you want detachable things then use @language
16:38:49 <dauwhe> ... we have two difficulties, i agree with this one
16:39:10 <dauwhe> ... if we ignore surrounding html we will end up defining something which is not aligned with how json-ld is used in html
16:39:21 <dauwhe> ... I don't know which one is a bigger danger
16:39:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: the Q is, whether we use something we are sure will work detached or embedded, but might overwrite default/be in conflict with processors
16:39:59 <dauwhe> ivan: I dont think this is correct
16:40:07 <dauwhe> .... if you use @language it works everywhere
16:40:19 <dauwhe> ... if I don't put anything in JSON_LD or any other thing, what happens then?
16:40:32 <dauwhe> ... in one case a language might be inherited, in the other case not
16:40:49 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:40:55 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
16:40:57 <dauwhe> ivan: @language is so far away from the standard syntax for authors; extending a context is very difficult to follow
16:41:12 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: the context line in json-manifest should be copy/paste; should not be edited
16:41:19 <dauwhe> ... it's not about metadata, not about structure
16:41:45 <dauwhe> tzviya: can we come to consensu?
16:41:55 <dauwhe> ivan: we should do a PR knowing there are issues, and we don't know
16:42:14 <dauwhe> ... I can try to write up the more complex situation and see where it goes
16:42:27 <dauwhe> laurentlemeur: let's try to write it
16:42:49 <dauwhe> ivan: I will come up with a PR, hopefully this week
16:42:54 <dauwhe> github-bot: end topic
16:43:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can publish a new draft, and thus more work
16:43:22 <dauwhe> ... the goal of the draft; we would like to see implementations
16:43:33 <dauwhe> ... we have lots of implementers in this group
16:43:47 <dauwhe> ... we will ask you to commit to this now
16:43:59 <dauwhe> ... what we really want is a lot of issues. tell me the problems!
16:44:04 <dauwhe> ... Josh is going to do this.
16:44:12 <ivan> q+
16:44:13 <dauwhe> ... anyone else, please try this
16:44:16 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:44:24 <dauwhe> ivan: we should make it more precise
16:44:29 <dauwhe> ... describe more details
16:44:38 <dauwhe> ... right now we have only vague ideas about affordances
16:44:41 <dauwhe> ... this is the missing thing
16:44:47 <dauwhe> ... we have lots of metadata in the manifest
16:45:01 <dauwhe> ... we want an implementation which does two things
16:45:07 <dauwhe> ... 1. navigate through resources
16:45:35 <dauwhe> ... 2. and do something--offlining, caching, whatever--I want to read on the plane
16:45:40 <dauwhe> ... these are the two challenges
16:45:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: you can take your time
16:46:04 <dauwhe> ... take a month, if you need more that's good
16:46:12 <George> q+
16:46:12 <Hadrien> q+
16:46:16 <tzviya> ack George
16:46:39 <dauwhe> George: do we only want browser/RS systems or authoring tools?
16:46:47 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:46:51 <dauwhe> ivan: only reading, we should't worry about authoring yet
16:47:08 <dauwhe> Hadrien: I created an issue about processing manifest into webidl
16:47:12 <dauwhe> ... this is relevant here
16:47:20 <dauwhe> ... what I listed is what any implemenation will have to do
16:47:26 <tzviya> see https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/268
16:47:41 <dauwhe> ... it can be a big challenge to go from the many different things allowed to an in-memory model for basic implemenation
16:48:00 <dauwhe> ... it's non-trivial to convert this manuscript into webidl
16:48:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: we are ok with partial implementation
16:48:14 <wolfgang> s/implemenation/implementation/
16:48:22 <dauwhe> ... and we do want to hear about problems
16:48:28 <ivan> q+
16:48:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:48:37 <dauwhe> Hadrien: I'm not saying there are problems, there is just lots of work
16:48:40 <dauwhe> ivan: I agree
16:48:58 <dauwhe> ...we have to be careful that what is currently in the doc around IDL is out of date
16:49:10 <dauwhe> ... we shouldn't spend time redoing that before next publication
16:49:21 <dauwhe> ... I am looking at an implementation on that
16:49:29 <dauwhe> ... to do it in Node
16:49:54 <dauwhe> ... for implementors: json-ld has a bunch of APIs which convert json-ld into different types of json-ld
16:50:12 <dauwhe> ... and so can you can create something simpler using existing tools
16:50:56 <Hadrien> q+
16:51:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: we do intend epub4 to be a packaged version of WP
16:51:12 <wendyreid> q+
16:51:15 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:51:18 <dauwhe> ... so this will give you a head start on epub4 work
16:51:22 <Avneesh> q+
16:51:37 <dauwhe> Hadrien: for a partial and specialized implemenation, what I've done for audio is already such an implemenation
16:51:52 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:52:03 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I don't want to speak for kobo but I'll talk to Jeff
16:52:05 <wolfgang> s/implemenation/implementation/
16:52:11 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:52:25 <dauwhe> Avneesh: this is only the 2nd public draft
16:52:38 <dauwhe> ... have to start on accessibility review
16:52:51 <dauwhe> ... when is right time to start?
16:53:09 <dauwhe> ivan: my plan was that once this draft is out, I will start bugging r12a for i18n review
16:53:29 <dauwhe> ... harder to do these reviews when things are close to final
16:53:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have seven minutes left
16:54:00 <dauwhe> Topic: use cases
16:54:10 <dauwhe> tzviya: josh did an overhaul
16:54:29 <dauwhe> josh: I hope everyone had a chance to loook
16:54:41 <dauwhe> ... there's not a lot of new writing, but lots of reorganizing
16:54:50 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
16:54:52 <dauwhe> ... so I want to write the layout hints
16:55:02 <dauwhe> ... and would like to write use cases for cover images
16:55:40 <dauwhe> ... the ultimate goal is to create good solid anchors to the UCR that we can add to the spec
16:56:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's good
16:56:20 <dauwhe> josh: I know there are missing UCRs
16:56:47 <dauwhe> ... if you know of non-documented use cases please open an issue
16:57:03 <dauwhe> ... we want to republish soonish
16:57:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks Josh
16:57:19 <dauwhe> ... looks like we won't get to the other agenda items
16:57:25 <dauwhe> ... prices for TPAC go up at end of month
16:57:31 <dauwhe> ... any other business?
16:57:51 <BenWaltersMS> BenWaltersMS has left #pwg
16:57:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:57:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:57:54 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:57:54 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:57:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:57:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, ivan, tzviya, wolfgang, Juan_Corona, jbuehler, Avneesh, JuanCorona, wendyreid, dkaplan, laudrain, JunGamo, Hadrien,
16:57:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
16:57:56 <dauwhe> ... and that's it!
16:57:57 <Zakim> ... makoto, jpyle, josh, gpellegrino, George, BenWaltersMS, Franco, caitlingebhard, laurentlemeur, duga, marisa, rkwright, derekjackson, ReinaldoFerraz, lsullam, harriett,
16:57:57 <Zakim> ... Chris_Maden, MustlazMS, clapierre