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19:45:40 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, make logs public
19:45:55 <PWinstanley> chair: PWinstanley
19:46:29 <PWinstanley> regrets+ AndreaPerego, Riccardo Albertoni
19:46:40 <PWinstanley> present+
19:47:13 <PWinstanley> Meeting: DXWG Plenary - 2018-07-10
19:47:16 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
19:47:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/10-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley
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20:04:18 <roba> present+
20:04:23 <antoine> present_
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20:04:32 <azaroth> present+ Rob_Sanderson
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20:05:42 <phila> scribe: phila
20:05:46 <phila> scribeNick: phila
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20:05:51 <phila> Topic: Admin
20:05:58 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/2018/07/03-dxwg-minutes
20:06:12 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2018/07/03-dxwg-minutes last week's minutes
20:06:19 <phila> Proposed: Accept last week's minutes
20:06:21 <azaroth> +1
20:06:24 <PWinstanley> +1
20:06:26 <kcoyle> +1
20:06:29 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
20:06:39 <roba> +1
20:06:39 <antoine> +1
20:06:41 <annette_g> +1
20:06:43 <alejandra> present+
20:06:49 <phila> Resolved: Accept last week's minutes
20:07:17 <SimonCox> present+
20:07:19 <phila> Topic: General principles
20:07:36 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg
20:07:43 <phila> PWinstanley: Consensus and pluarism - a reminder to everyone that we have to operate in a consensual way
20:07:56 <phila> ... meaning being open to ideas from others. There can be more than one way f doing things
20:08:05 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:08:12 <phila> ... We're trying to create an output for a wide and diverse audience
20:08:25 <phila> PWinstanley: We can get a bit caught up in our own world a little
20:08:34 <phila> ... there can be more than one solution
20:09:08 <phila> PWinstanley: In the past we'd use the wiki and the public ML.
20:09:34 <phila> ... but now we tend to use GitHub and some of the conversation that would have gone through the issues early enough.
20:09:42 <phila> ... Not sure that mailing list bounces have been resolved
20:09:59 <alejandra> +q
20:10:01 <phila> kcoyle: The old emails are stored away... antoine noticed it...
20:10:29 <phila> SimonCox: I also had anyther experience this week when I was checking whether some mails from colleagues had appeared and no, they had bounce notices
20:10:52 <phila> phila: Suggest write to Gerald Oskoboiny <gerald@w3.org>
20:11:11 <alejandra> q-
20:11:16 <phila> PWinstanley: We'd have noticed it earlier if we weren't using GH so heavily
20:11:19 <alejandra> +q
20:11:29 <phila> PWinstanley: We can't be sure that GH will persist
20:11:48 <azaroth> q+ to note that W3C archives GH
20:11:49 <phila> ... whereas W3C's persistence policy is much stronger
20:12:07 <phila> PWinstanley: We need to make sure that we have some provision for persistence
20:12:09 <phila> q?
20:12:26 <phila> PWinstanley: We need to think about how we monitor and are open about getting input from GH
20:12:35 <phila> ... including people who are not members of the group
20:12:55 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
20:12:56 <phila> ... Karen was investigating with W3C. It's up to us to decide how to deal with it.
20:13:43 <phila> alejandra: I've used in the past an integration between GH and Zenodo which is a persistent repo. CERN uses it. Zenodo assigns a DOI to everything assiged to it
20:13:50 <phila> PWinstanley: Do it's a deep copy?
20:14:05 <phila> alejandra: It contains a history as long as you include all the GH history
20:14:21 <phila> ... We should so regular releases of the GH repo every so often
20:14:28 <phila> q+ to rant about DOIs
20:14:41 <phila> alejandra: We could use Zenodo as a persistent repo
20:14:52 <PWinstanley> ack azaroth
20:14:52 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to note that W3C archives GH
20:15:19 <phila> azaroth: For the annotation WG, and the JSON-LD WG, W3C has an archiving implementation that the team contact can set up
20:15:27 <phila> ... It mirrors the entire state of the repo weekly
20:15:37 <alejandra> including the issues and wiki?
20:15:42 <phila> PWinstanley: And it keeps it within W3C
20:15:47 <phila> azaroth: Yes.
20:15:52 <PWinstanley> q?
20:16:02 <PWinstanley> ack phila
20:16:02 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to rant about DOIs
20:16:04 <phila> ... Probably a good idea to talk to DSR about that. I dare say Ivan could help
20:17:58 <phila> action: dsr to set up regular GitHub dump to w3.org
20:18:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Set up regular github dump to w3.org [on Dave Raggett - due 2018-07-17].
20:18:15 <phila> Topic: How to acknowledge and record comments that come via GH
20:19:04 <SimonCox> q+
20:19:09 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
20:19:19 <phila> PWinstanley: We need a formal approach to recording and making sure that we acknowledge that we're taking the suggestion into account
20:19:35 <phila> SimonCox: That means being sensitive to who is and who isn't a member of the WG
20:19:44 <phila> ... two in particular
20:20:08 <phila> PWinstanley: Because they're not members of a W3C MO, or an IE, they've not signed away IP
20:20:17 <phila> q+
20:20:17 <SimonCox> ... andreas kuchartz and Jakub Klimek
20:20:31 <phila> q-
20:21:28 <SimonCox> q+
20:22:11 <SimonCox> q+ to suggest addition to readme.md noting IP arrangements
20:22:28 <phila> phila: IP is a non-trivial point. No easy answer - but you need to be mindful that the consequences, in extremeley rare circs can be very dangerous
20:22:30 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
20:22:30 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to suggest addition to readme.md noting IP arrangements
20:22:31 <phila> ack SimonCox
20:22:53 <phila> SimonCox: A modicum of coverage is to add something to the readme.md?
20:23:02 <phila> ... Drawing attention to the Ip expectations
20:23:06 <phila> phila: +1
20:23:17 <alejandra> +1
20:23:21 <phila> SimonCox: It's not secure, but it draws attention to the Ip arrangements
20:23:25 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:24:27 <phila> action: dsr to look into adding a disclaimer for IP in the GitHub readme to cover the WG for contributions by non-members as possible solution - or find a better solution
20:24:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Look into adding a disclaimer for ip in the github readme to cover the wg for contributions by non-members as possible solution - or find a better solution [on Dave Raggett - due 2018-07-17].
20:25:02 <phila> SimonCox: Was there an immediate action to contact the 2 active contributors?
20:25:20 <kcoyle> q+
20:25:26 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:25:51 <alejandra> +q
20:26:01 <phila> action: SimonCox to write to Andreas Kuchartz and Jakub Klimek drawing their attention to the IP policies at W3C wrt their contributions
20:26:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Write to andreas kuchartz and jakub klimek drawing their attention to the ip policies at w3c wrt their contributions [on Simon Cox - due 2018-07-17].
20:26:14 <phila> ack alejandra
20:26:29 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
20:26:47 <phila> alejandra: How doe sit work that we invite public comments and then people that suggest something ... may not be part of the WG
20:27:23 <PWinstanley> s/doe sit/does it/
20:28:13 <phila> phila: It's a conflict...
20:28:21 <phila> Topic: Action items
20:28:46 <phila> action-110
20:28:47 <trackbot> action-110 -- Karen Coyle to Find better wording for 216 especially "extend" -- due 2018-05-15 -- OPEN
20:28:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/110
20:28:54 <phila> kcoyle: Ongoing
20:28:57 <phila> action-129
20:28:57 <trackbot> action-129 -- Alejandra Gonzalez Beltran to Create new use case and requirements for more complex situation -- due 2018-06-19 -- OPEN
20:28:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/129
20:29:05 <phila> alejandra: I need to contact antoine
20:29:15 <phila> action-141
20:29:15 <trackbot> action-141 -- Phil Archer to Add his wording to the profiles document -- due 2018-07-10 -- OPEN
20:29:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/141
20:29:21 <phila> close action-141
20:29:21 <trackbot> Closed action-141.
20:30:01 <phila> Topic: DCAT sub group reports
20:30:28 <phila> SimonCox: Activity has reduced somewhat in the last month. The bulk of the activity on the DXWG has shifted to profiles.
20:30:45 <kcoyle> ?+
20:30:46 <phila> ... Most of the discussion has been around new use case for loosely connected files
20:30:54 <kcoyle> q?
20:30:59 <phila> SimonCox: It was recognised as an important use case
20:31:02 <kcoyle> +q
20:31:05 <phila> ... Proposed resolutions not yet finalised
20:31:26 <phila> ... Mechanism to geneate UCs is worked examples.
20:31:41 <phila> SimonCox: FPWD has been released for a few months - almost no comments
20:31:54 <phila> ... That's a concern since it suggests that the work is not needed
20:32:13 <phila> ... Problem with the comments mailing list came to light when we asked for comments.
20:32:43 <phila> ... I asked my colleagues to make comments and express contentment with various things. That drew attention to the comment list problem.
20:32:47 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:33:09 <phila> kcoyle: Does the WG have any sense of when the next draft might be stabe?
20:33:21 <phila> s/stabe?/stable?
20:33:33 <phila> SimonCox: We've not been planning towards the next draft, just working through issues
20:33:40 <PWinstanley> s/geneate/generate/
20:33:44 <phila> ... Settling on a tight audited change process, using GH tracke
20:34:07 <phila> SimonCox: Changes to the visible Editor's draft aren't rapid. Maybe changes every 2-3 weeks
20:34:21 <phila> ... might come a point where editors will need to do a significant clean up
20:34:25 <phila> ... Not at that stage yet
20:34:59 <phila> ... changes are incremental. Doc is in good shape, currently better that FPWD, so we could release a be version
20:35:10 <phila> ... Hasn't been on our agenda.
20:35:26 <phila> PWinstanley: For TPAC, only a few weeks left to get the early bird rate
20:35:49 <phila> ... Also October is the start of Q4 and our timetable says we'll be making progress by then. The clock is ticking...
20:36:23 <phila> Topic: Profiles Guidance
20:36:23 <kcoyle> +q
20:36:56 <phila> roba: There hasn't been... the agenda is being driven by Ruben and Lars who weren't available last time
20:37:03 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:37:35 <phila> kcoyle: I went through, trying to gather what we have discussed that could end up being content for the doc.
20:37:47 <phila> ... I could put that on the wiki but it's incomplete
20:37:55 <phila> ... There are diagrams, GH issues etc.
20:38:06 <phila> ... Might make it clearer what needs to happen next.
20:38:18 <phila> PWinstanley: You'd do the wiki cf a Google doc
20:38:25 <phila> kcoyle: It's very wikiable
20:38:45 <antoine> +1
20:38:49 <roba> +1
20:38:55 <phila> PWinstanley: That would be very kind
20:39:01 <phila> kcoyle: OK, I'll get it into shape
20:39:26 <phila> ... I can put it on the wiki quickly but it won't quickly be complete
20:39:28 <roba> q+
20:39:46 <PWinstanley> ack roba
20:39:59 <antoine> q+
20:40:06 <phila> roba: Thanks Karen. I'm standing ready to help look at some of the content but I don't feel I'm ready to set the scope.
20:40:33 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
20:40:40 <ncar> ncar has joined #dxwg
20:41:30 <phila> antoine: Organising the calls for this group... maybe Rob can answer this... I understood that the guidance sub group would merge with the profile nego group - but this needs a definite time that works for everyone
20:41:44 <phila> roba: We're a bit of a hostage to Ruben and Lars' schedules
20:41:54 <phila> .., Maybe we should do alternate weeks
20:42:41 <phila> ... I think it would be good if someone could step up and organise this. I'd do it but I'm now in this WG on my own time and not on behalf of OGC.
20:42:47 <ncar> I can help
20:43:01 <phila> antoine: So set it up on the alternate week? OK, I  can look at setting that up
20:43:10 <ncar> yes!
20:43:15 <phila> PWinstanley: ncar has offered to help
20:43:41 <phila> ncar: I'm at a provenance conference in London
20:43:52 <phila> ... I have a proper remit from my agency for this so I can spend time on it
20:44:25 <phila> action: Carr to work with Roba and Antoine to establish meeting schedule for profile guidance doc
20:44:26 <trackbot> Error finding 'Carr'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/users>.
20:44:34 <phila> action: ncar to work with Roba and Antoine to establish meeting schedule for profile guidance doc
20:44:35 <trackbot> Error finding 'ncar'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/users>.
20:44:43 <ncar> nicholascar (Nicholas Car)
20:44:44 <phila> action: nicholas to work with Roba and Antoine to establish meeting schedule for profile guidance doc
20:44:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Work with roba and antoine to establish meeting schedule for profile guidance doc [on Nicholas Car - due 2018-07-17].
20:45:04 <phila> Topic: UCR and requirements for conneg and profiles
20:45:10 <phila> PWinstanley: There's a link...
20:45:16 <phila> RRSAgent: make logs public
20:45:41 <phila> PWinstanley: There's a thing from Andrea. There are a couple of PRs that have been around for a long time
20:45:56 <phila> Meeting: DXWG weekly
20:45:59 <alejandra> +q
20:46:05 <phila> PWinstanley: I think this is something Ale and I should look at
20:46:33 <kcoyle> That's correct
20:46:34 <phila> SimonCox:  I thought those PRs that Andrea was drawing attention to were related to UCs that were accepted but not yet put into the UCR
20:46:59 <phila> SimonCox: I believe that's the problem. They're really on the UCR editors to act on
20:47:21 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.07.10
20:47:23 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> .. o.k. thank you for this pointer, we'll care of them
20:47:27 <phila> PWinstanley: I guess I should look at that
20:47:37 <phila> alejandra: You and Jaro, and Rob.
20:47:51 <phila> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Quite a massive clean up needed
20:47:55 <alejandra> s/You and/
20:48:04 <phila> ... No need for an action item, it's our normal responsibility
20:48:33 <phila> action: Jaroslav to resolve the outstanding pull requests for the UCR from Andrea
20:48:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Resolve the outstanding pull requests for the ucr from andrea [on Jaroslav Pullmann - due 2018-07-17].
20:49:29 <PWinstanley> Requirement: "Profiles may add to or specialise clauses from one or more base specifications. Such profiles inherit all the constraints from base specifications.” ID37 [ID39] #238
20:49:50 <phila> PWinstanley: is this still under discussion?
20:49:52 <phila> kcoyle: Yes
20:50:03 <phila> q+
20:50:12 <roba> q+
20:50:18 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
20:50:19 <alejandra> q-
20:50:22 <PWinstanley> ack phila
20:50:28 <PWinstanley> ack phila
20:50:45 <PWinstanley> ack roba
20:50:59 <phila> phila: Why is that req contentious?
20:51:12 <phila> PWinstanley: It isn't, we just haven't voted on it yet
20:51:28 <kcoyle> +q
20:51:36 <PWinstanley> ack kcoyle
20:51:42 <phila> roba: We seem to be being asked for evidence for it. The word inheritance seems to be a problem.
20:52:13 <phila> kcoyle: There was a lengthy discussion... some folks were talking about dependency rather than inheritance
20:52:23 <roba> q+
20:52:35 <annette_g> q+
20:52:35 <PWinstanley> ack roba
20:52:45 <phila> ... people want to have everything available without having to hop up the inheritance tree to get there
20:52:56 <annette_g> +1 to roba
20:52:58 <annette_g> q-
20:53:00 <phila> roba: OK, but that's a separate requirement at implementation time
20:53:06 <azaroth> +1 to RobA as well
20:53:22 <SimonCox> +1 flattening is an implementation/packaging issue
20:53:30 <phila> PWinstanley: Do people want a rewording or just go ahead with what we have?
20:53:41 <PWinstanley> q?
20:54:00 <roba> +1
20:54:01 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:54:03 <antoine> +1
20:54:08 <annette_g> +1 for voting
20:54:25 <phila> Proposed: Accept the Requirement "Profiles may add to or specialise clauses from one or more base specifications. Such profiles inherit all the constraints from base specifications.” ID37 [ID39] #238
20:54:29 <alejandra> +1
20:54:31 <PWinstanley> +1
20:54:31 <phila> +1
20:54:33 <SimonCox> +1
20:54:33 <annette_g> +1
20:54:34 <ncar> +1
20:54:35 <azaroth> +1
20:54:37 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
20:54:50 <phila> Resolved: Accept the Requirement "Profiles may add to or specialise clauses from one or more base specifications. Such profiles inherit all the constraints from base specifications.” ID37 [ID39] #238
20:55:20 <PWinstanley> 12.1 Requirement: a vocabulary or data model can be a profile of several other vocabularies or data models at once
20:55:34 <phila> sRequirement: "Profiles/Requirement - "Profiles/
20:55:41 <phila> s/Requirement: "Profiles/Requirement - "Profiles/
20:55:41 <annette_g> q+
20:56:11 <PWinstanley> ack annette_g
20:56:34 <phila> annette_g: I think we were concerned that the phrasing was a req about a data model rather than a profile
20:56:36 <azaroth> +1
20:56:38 <phila> ... It feels inside out
20:56:49 <antoine> q+
20:56:50 <SimonCox> q+
20:56:54 <alejandra> +q
20:56:55 <roba> a profile is a sort of data model surely?
20:56:56 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
20:57:05 <alejandra> q-
20:57:20 <alejandra> q+
20:57:28 <phila> antoine: It was discussed in the context of switching from one req to another
20:57:52 <kcoyle> "A profile can be a profile of several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
20:58:05 <phila> ... to react to Annette, I woldn't mind losing vocab in the first part. Sometimes I use data model where people use profile
20:58:13 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
20:58:18 <phila> ... But if it's easier, I;m happy with Karen's phraseology
20:58:27 <phila> SimonCox: I was going to make a similar point
20:58:40 <alejandra> q-
20:58:43 <phila> ... I find the distinction between a data model and a profile difficult
20:58:57 <phila> ... Every model os a set of constraints on having no model
20:59:08 <PWinstanley> "A profile can be a profile of several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
20:59:09 <azaroth> How about:  A profile can constrain several  ... ?
20:59:11 <phila> Proposed: Accept "A profile can be a profile of several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
20:59:13 <azaroth> q+
20:59:19 <PWinstanley> ack azaroth
20:59:31 <SimonCox> q+
20:59:37 <PWinstanley> ack SimonCox
20:59:41 <phila> azaroth: Say a profile can be a profile is tautology
20:59:47 <roba> +1
20:59:47 <antoine> q+
20:59:49 <roba> q+
20:59:51 <phila> SimonCox: Dependencies is my favoured word
21:00:07 <phila> ... Any model or profile potentially builds on other stuff
21:00:07 <kcoyle> "A profile can have dependencies on several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
21:00:07 <azaroth> I'm fine with dependency (or anything that isn't a circular reference)
21:00:27 <PWinstanley> "A profile can be dependent on several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
21:00:30 <annette_g> "a profile can have multiple base specifications"
21:00:33 <PWinstanley> "A profile can be dependent several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
21:00:43 <PWinstanley> Q?
21:00:48 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
21:01:10 <SimonCox> Note: the OGC model for specifications essentially is a model for (non-circular!) dependencies
21:01:13 <azaroth> q+ to be -1 on base specifications
21:01:14 <phila> antoine: I can live with the formulation... I think I prefer Annette's suggestion of using 'base'
21:01:22 <roba> the original UCR used these words: Profiles may inherit clauses from one or more parent profiles
21:01:29 <kcoyle> ""A profile can be based on several vocabularies or data models at the same time"
21:01:30 <azaroth> q-
21:01:34 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> .. is not this the opposite of the original meaning, profile as constraint of a model (not depending on this model?)
21:01:36 <phila> PWinstanley: Anything we can agree now?
21:01:41 <azaroth> Base Specification implies it does not itself have dependencies, to me
21:02:06 <phila> roba: I think we have the same requirement in a different phrasing in the UCR already
21:02:42 <antoine> q+
21:02:44 <phila> PWinstanley: A profile can be based on several data models or vocabs at the same time?
21:02:49 <PWinstanley> ack roba
21:02:52 <phila> roba: Inherit clauses from...
21:02:56 <ncar> I don't like dependency: things can depend on all kinds of things. Derivation is better
21:03:04 <kcoyle> +1 to azaroth - base does imply something "pureP
21:03:13 <PWinstanley> ack antoine
21:03:14 <kcoyle> s/P/"
21:03:53 <phila> antoine: If we are not yet ... we are looking at reqs in the Europeana context
21:04:03 <azaroth> present-
21:04:08 <annette_g> I like Karen's wording
21:04:12 <phila> kcoyle: I think we agree on the principle, but not the wording
21:04:27 <roba> +1 @azaroth - thats exactly how modelled in profileDesc - not sure yet if useful :-0
21:04:39 <roba> agree with kcoyle
21:04:47 <phila> proposal: we accept 12.1 in principle but acknowledge that it may need rewording
21:04:52 <PWinstanley> +1
21:04:53 <kcoyle> +1
21:04:54 <roba> +1
21:04:57 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:04:58 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:04:59 <phila> +1
21:05:01 <antoine> +1
21:05:07 <phila> resolved: we accept 12.1 in principle but acknowledge that it may need rewording
21:05:07 <annette_g> +1
21:05:09 <ncar> +1
21:05:18 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/10-dxwg-minutes.html phila
21:05:28 <phila> PWinstanley: Thanks everyone for being on the call.
21:05:34 <phila> ... Same time next week
21:05:36 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye!
21:05:38 <annette_g> bye all!
21:05:41 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:05:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/10-dxwg-minutes.html phila
21:05:45 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-