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08:19:00 <SimonCox> meeting: DCAT team 2018-07-05
08:19:06 <SimonCox> chair: SimonCox
08:20:04 <SimonCox> regrets: AndreaPerego , PWinstanley , DaveBrowning
08:20:15 <SimonCox> present+
08:20:28 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:20:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
08:30:58 <roba> roba has joined #dxwgdcat
08:31:42 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
08:31:52 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwgdcat
08:31:58 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present+
08:33:09 <SimonCox> regrets: lars
08:33:42 <alejandra> present+
08:34:49 <SimonCox> scribe: alejandra
08:34:59 <SimonCox> scribenick: alejandra
08:35:19 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
08:35:31 <SimonCox> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.07.05#Main_agenda
08:35:45 <SimonCox> Topic: confirm agenda
08:37:03 <SimonCox> switch items 5 & 6
08:37:20 <SimonCox> topic: Approve minutes from last meeting
08:37:26 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2018/06/28-dxwgdcat-minutes
08:37:29 <roba> +0
08:37:36 <SimonCox> +1
08:37:44 <alejandra> +0 (absent, sent late regrets)
08:37:53 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
08:38:16 <SimonCox> resolved: Approve minutes from last meeting
08:38:36 <SimonCox> topic: Catalogues in which dataset is a bag of files
08:38:44 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/256
08:39:31 <SimonCox> q?
08:39:38 <alejandra> +q
08:39:46 <SimonCox> ack: alejandra
08:39:47 <alejandra> SimonCox: issue discussed 3 weeks ago
08:39:54 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
08:39:59 <roba> q+
08:41:10 <SimonCox> alejandra: what about when distributions are bags-of-files?
08:41:39 <SimonCox> ... do we need to define an entity 'bag of files'
08:41:53 <Jaroslav_Pullmann>  q+
08:42:13 <SimonCox> ... sibling to dcat:Distribution
08:42:16 <SimonCox> q?
08:42:23 <SimonCox> ack roba
08:42:26 <DaveBrowning> present+
08:42:29 <alejandra> I meant entity File
08:42:37 <alejandra> rather than bag-of-files
08:42:50 <alejandra> roba: I was going to raise the relationship with other use cases
08:42:56 <alejandra> ... the case of SOAP services
08:43:06 <alejandra> ... the payload returned is wrapped inside a document
08:43:08 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
08:43:20 <SimonCox> q+
08:43:21 <alejandra> ... there is a general need to describe both the packaging and the internal content separately
08:43:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
08:43:34 <alejandra> ... one way is to say that a distribution conforms to multiple profiles
08:43:48 <alejandra> ... what the wrap containers are
08:43:56 <alejandra> ... I'm sure there are other approaches as well
08:44:05 <alejandra> ... multiple solutions for this problem
08:44:05 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
08:44:18 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Pattern from IDS: [content]->[representation: format + compression etc.]->[artifcat: materialization as file]
08:44:20 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: in Genoa we talked about a pattern
08:44:34 <alejandra> ... from IDS
08:44:59 <alejandra> ... representation - the syntax, how data is structured in terms of syntactical data types, media types, compression
08:45:11 <alejandra> ... if we are talking about files, we have to note artifacts
08:45:11 <SimonCox> q+ to comment on how much abstraction vs. solving immediate problem
08:45:25 <alejandra> ... artifacts as materialization as file
08:45:30 <alejandra> what is IDS?
08:45:42 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
08:45:42 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to comment on how much abstraction vs. solving immediate problem
08:45:58 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> IDS: https://www.fraunhofer.de/en/research/lighthouse-projects-fraunhofer-initiatives/industrial-data-space.html
08:46:09 <alejandra> SimonCox: I'm hearing roba and Jaroslav_Pullmann pointing out that we are talking about a special case of a more general problem
08:46:24 <alejandra> ... motivation when proposing this use case was dealing with a legacy issue
08:46:31 <alejandra> ... common issue with existing catalogues
08:46:43 <alejandra> ... as they weren't design to distinguish distributions
08:47:04 <alejandra> ... in the wild repositories often ask people depositing data to give an archive or a set of files
08:47:04 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
08:47:24 <alejandra> ... I'm a little bit nervous about loosing the initial common concern
08:47:36 <alejandra> ... alejandra has spotted something important
08:47:54 <alejandra> ... the solution I proposed has missed the representation of the entity file
08:48:12 <alejandra> ... on further reflection I don't think any distribution would be a file
08:48:14 <alejandra> +q
08:48:23 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
08:48:28 <alejandra> ... what the relationship between a distribution and a file might be?
08:48:37 <SimonCox> s/any/every/
08:48:43 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: my reference to IDS was related to alejandra's concept of file
08:49:03 <alejandra> ... cannot we described as it is done in ADMS?
08:49:10 <alejandra> ... it supports nesting of datasets
08:49:24 <alejandra> ... a legacy file, why not use this pattern
08:49:29 <alejandra> ... dataset that has distribution
08:49:40 <alejandra> ... ADMS included asset
08:49:58 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
08:50:49 <SimonCox> q+ to point out that dct:relation could also manage partonomy (dataset) relations
08:51:12 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> I was referring to this predicate for purpose of composing "bag" of files: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-adms/#adms-includedasset
08:51:13 <SimonCox> alejandra: DCAT does not have granulatiry required
08:51:31 <SimonCox> s/granulatiry/granularity/
08:51:40 <SimonCox> q?
08:51:59 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
08:51:59 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to point out that dct:relation could also manage partonomy (dataset) relations
08:52:07 <alejandra> granularity for describing the contents of a distribution
08:52:19 <alejandra> the relationship between bag-of-files and distribution is key
08:52:21 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-dataset-relations-simon/dcat/index.html#class-dataset
08:52:35 <alejandra> as we need clear guidelines on when to use one or the other
08:52:36 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-dataset-relations-simon/dcat/index.html#Property:dataset_relation
08:52:46 <alejandra> and a distribution itself may be a bag-of-files
08:52:55 <alejandra> so potentially we need some recursive representation
08:53:26 <SimonCox> See in usage note "One of the more specific sub-properties should be used if the semantics of the link are known."
08:53:41 <SimonCox> and 'See also:	dct:conformsTo, dcat:distribution, dct:hasPart, dct:references, dct:requires'
08:53:45 <alejandra> SimonCox: showing the current PR with a potential representation
08:54:06 <alejandra> SimonCox: I'm motivating this from cases I've seen in catalogues
08:54:22 <alejandra> ... including some documentation, perhaps a schema, files that are parts of a whole dataset
08:54:29 <alejandra> ... as well as alternative representations
08:54:44 <alejandra> ... subproperties of dct:relation
08:55:12 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> the usage note provides a sensible explanation, +1 for using "dct:relation" in case we don't know about the details
08:55:29 <alejandra> +q to remind about the comment we received https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Apr/0001.html
08:56:02 <SimonCox> q?
08:56:07 <alejandra> SimonCox: trying to address alejandra's concern
08:56:10 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
08:56:10 <Zakim> alejandra, you wanted to remind about the comment we received https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Apr/0001.html
08:56:47 <alejandra> ... both in usage note and notes, the relationship should be used in the semantics are known
08:57:09 <alejandra> ... are you looking for a stronger instruction to users
08:57:44 <roba> q+
08:58:16 <SimonCox> alejandra: we need specific examples to illustrate recommended patterns
08:58:29 <SimonCox> ... from CKAN, other repositories
08:58:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to have stronger language
08:59:49 <alejandra> reminder about the comment on the list https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Apr/0001.html
08:59:58 <alejandra> SimonCox: yes, we need to deal with the issue of manifest
09:00:06 <alejandra> ... perhaps the solution is to run some experiments
09:00:11 <alejandra> ... and using some examples
09:00:19 <SimonCox> q?
09:00:21 <alejandra> ... and working up with increasing sophistication
09:00:24 <SimonCox> ack roba
09:00:38 <alejandra> roba: there are a couple of overlapping concerns
09:00:49 <alejandra> ... how individual distributions bundle things
09:00:59 <alejandra> ... needs to be separated from a dataset as a set of files
09:01:01 <riccardoAlbertoni> yes
09:01:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> i think so
09:01:13 <alejandra> ... is there something saying that distribution is disjoint of a dataset
09:01:24 <riccardoAlbertoni> No i think they are disjoint
09:01:31 <SimonCox> q?
09:01:58 <alejandra> roba: is the problem the separate concepts of dataset or distribution
09:02:13 <alejandra> SimonCox: maybe I should have put files
09:02:38 <alejandra> ... I'm looking at CKAN and CSIRO data access portal
09:02:48 <alejandra> ... I think it is call collection in DAP
09:03:05 <alejandra> ... when a person adds a dataset to a repository can add multiple files
09:03:16 <alejandra> ... different representations of a dataset as a whole
09:03:46 <alejandra> +q
09:03:51 <SimonCox> q?
09:04:08 <alejandra> roba: the issue is that dataset and distribution are conflated
09:04:17 <alejandra> ... then surely the packaging is a platform specific choice
09:04:25 <alejandra> ... certain platforms can choose a dataset
09:04:50 <alejandra> SimonCox: the issue is that there will be a lot bag of files
09:05:12 <alejandra> roba: another case of qualified relation problem
09:05:23 <alejandra> SimonCox: there are some first class relations
09:05:27 <alejandra> ... dcat:distribution
09:05:54 <alejandra> ... subproperties of dct:relation, it might have been done as qualified relations
09:06:07 <alejandra> ... if you don't know the semantics of the relationship
09:06:16 <alejandra> ... and you're not sure if it is a distribution
09:06:20 <alejandra> ... use a dct:relation
09:06:45 <alejandra> +q to say about dataset and distribution abstraction and evolution of catalogues
09:07:01 <SimonCox> q?
09:07:09 <alejandra> SimonCox: we need to give people a recommendation when they don't know what the relationship is
09:07:18 <alejandra> roba: I don't think it is restrictive to legacy
09:07:22 <alejandra> ... it is a common problem
09:07:33 <SimonCox> q?
09:07:43 <alejandra> SimonCox: at the mo, there is nothing on the DCAT spec to say people how to deal with this common problem
09:08:04 <alejandra> roba: there ought to be a note to say if there is no specific semantics, use a qualified relationship
09:08:15 <alejandra> SimonCox: how to qualify it if you don't know the relationship?
09:08:20 <alejandra> roba: you could put some note
09:08:44 <alejandra> SimonCox: we're trying to provide a mechanism
09:08:50 <alejandra> ... alternative to distribution
09:09:01 <alejandra> ... CKAN does it wrong
09:09:09 <alejandra> ... because we don't tell them how to represent it
09:09:38 <alejandra> ... for people that are using dcat:distribution incorrectly
09:10:08 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
09:10:08 <Zakim> alejandra, you wanted to say about dataset and distribution abstraction and evolution of catalogues
09:10:08 <alejandra> SimonCox: I'd defer the suggestion of a qualified relation
09:11:10 <SimonCox> alejandra: is Distribution actually a kind of Dataset? Did DCAT do a conflation?
09:11:24 <SimonCox> q+
09:12:06 <SimonCox> q+ to comment that definition of dcat:Distribution as _representation _ needs clarifying
09:12:34 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
09:12:34 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to comment that definition of dcat:Distribution as _representation _ needs clarifying
09:12:44 <alejandra> I raised the issue about evolution of catalogues
09:12:52 <alejandra> what if a dataset was a bag of files
09:13:09 <alejandra> and now the same dataset is given in another representation
09:13:37 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
09:13:49 <alejandra> SimonCox: Jaroslav_Pullmann in Genoa was discussing about tighten up the definition of dcat:Distribution as a representation
09:14:19 <alejandra> ... then some of the files I'm talking about in this case, if they are parts of a dataset, might be reasonable also model as representation of other datasets
09:14:39 <alejandra> ... but the general problem you're discussing goes away if we consider a Distribution as a representation
09:14:46 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: this would break a lot of things
09:15:02 <alejandra> ... people wouldn't bother about the distinction
09:15:07 <alejandra> ... between abstract data and syntax
09:16:01 <SimonCox> q?
09:16:10 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
09:16:15 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: the proposed solution was replying to the idea of file
09:16:15 <SimonCox> q?
09:16:48 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: I think we have a viable solution
09:16:53 <alejandra> ... that wouldn't break anything
09:17:17 <alejandra> ... it would help people to find files within the catalogue
09:17:26 <alejandra> +q
09:17:38 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: what are the use cases for finding datasets
09:18:39 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
09:23:17 <alejandra> question about evolution of catalogues
09:23:19 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
09:24:18 <SimonCox> SimonCox asks alejandra: what is relationship between dcat:Distribution and dcat:File?
09:24:42 <alejandra> when you have a dataset as a bag-of-files and then the dataset is expanded with a new representation
09:24:47 <SimonCox> q?
09:24:53 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
09:25:15 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: are not we breaking the crucial distinction between abstract concept and concrete file
09:25:21 <alejandra> ... we are talking about composites
09:25:33 <alejandra> ... we have the wrapper file that is a dataset that is called a boundary
09:25:36 <alejandra> ... archive file
09:25:48 <alejandra> ... ADMS has further notes on the dataset
09:25:53 <alejandra> ... a schema would be a dataset
09:26:21 <SimonCox> When I wrote 'bag of files' in the UC, I meant that there woul dbe links from the Dataset intances to each of the files in the bag, but that the dcat:distribution predicate was incorrect for some members of the bag
09:26:37 <alejandra> ... I don't see the problem here if we adopt the distinction between dataset and distribution
09:27:30 <alejandra> SimonCox: I thought we had those cases covered
09:27:44 <alejandra> ... hasPart to point to another dataset
09:27:52 <alejandra> ... conformsTo to point to a schema
09:28:13 <alejandra> Jaroslav_Pullmann: we should not omit the concept of dataset
09:28:21 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-dataset-relations-simon/dcat/index.html#Property:dataset_part
09:29:17 <alejandra> SimonCox: probably we should go back to alejandra's proposal about giving examples
09:29:22 <alejandra> ... graduated set of examples
09:29:40 <alejandra> +1
09:30:00 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1  for looking at how this modeling applies to concrete (composite) examples
09:30:16 <SimonCox> Action: SimonCox to construct examples to show usage of Dataset -dct:relation etc
09:30:16 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:30:57 <SimonCox> action: Jaroslav_Pullmann to construct examples of relations from real catalogs
09:30:57 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:32:03 <SimonCox> action: alejandra also to develop examples of dct:relation etc
09:32:03 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
09:32:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye, thanks a lot for the interesting discussion
09:32:59 <DaveBrowning> Very valuable, and constructive...
09:33:07 <alejandra> thanks, and bye!
09:33:15 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye!
09:33:16 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:33:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
09:33:18 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
09:35:13 <SimonCox> rrsagent, make logs public
09:35:22 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
09:35:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/05-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox