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14:49:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/06/29-pbgsc-irc
14:49:02 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:49:02 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee Telco
14:49:02 <ivan> Chair: laudrain
14:49:02 <ivan> Date: 2018-06-19
14:51:17 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #pbgsc
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15:00:40 <tzviya> present+
15:00:51 <dauwhe> present+
15:00:55 <dauwhe> present+ George
15:01:49 <Rachel> present+
15:02:00 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:02:12 <ivan> present+
15:02:58 <jyoshii> join pbgsc
15:03:34 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:03:37 <jyoshii> present+
15:03:42 <liisamk> present+
15:04:59 <RickJ> RickJ has joined #pbgsc
15:05:04 <RickJ> present+ RickJ
15:05:36 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:05:42 <garth> present+ Garth
15:05:43 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
15:05:43 <Zakim> Present: tzviya, dauwhe, George, Rachel, ivan, jyoshii, liisamk, RickJ, Garth
15:05:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see garth, RickJ, liisamk, Karen, jyoshii, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, tzviya, dauwhe
15:06:07 <dauwhe> liisamk: start with Dave's topic?
15:06:31 <ivan> present+ george
15:06:38 <ivan> Topic: EPUB 3.2
15:06:49 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
15:07:00 <ivan> dauwhe: we are finishing up, some discussion of the last minute things
15:07:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:07:08 <ivan> ... core media type
15:07:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:07:21 <ivan> ... the quesiton is how does the process work now
15:07:39 <tzviya> s/...core media type/ ...opus as a core media type
15:07:44 <ivan> ... per charter any change must be approved by the BG
15:07:47 <ivan> ... I want a conversation on how we would go forward
15:08:06 <ivan> ... in W3C parlance we should have a wide review, shout from the desktops, etc
15:08:16 <ivan> ... what would we do in a BG?
15:08:31 <ivan> George: we are operating under an IDPF license
15:08:33 <tzviya> q+
15:08:47 <ivan> ...  we should use a process of W3C would be appropriate
15:09:01 <ivan> ... trying to follow as much as possible a w3c process would be o.k.
15:09:19 <ivan> ... a public review period, and we respond to all comments that may change something on the spec
15:09:45 <ivan> ... once that is done, we could go to a vote of the CG than it could be submitted to the BG for approval
15:09:49 <garth> +1
15:09:54 <ivan> ... this models the W3C process, and sounds good to me
15:10:05 <ivan> liisamk: you think that the vote should be in the BG?
15:10:09 <ivan> george: yes
15:10:12 <garth> ack tzviya
15:10:34 <garth> q+
15:10:36 <ivan> tzviya: the w3c process includes a wide review for i18n, privacy, security, etc
15:10:44 <ivan> dauwhe: that is the rec track process
15:11:06 <ivan> garth: I would say no, make lots of noise, but this is not rec track
15:11:19 <garth> q?
15:11:22 <garth> ack garth
15:11:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:11:44 <ivan> (various background noises...)
15:11:53 <liisamk> acacia Bill_Kasdorf
15:12:02 <ivan> Bill_Kasdorf: we do not have a general principle
15:12:05 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:12:15 <ivan> .... we want to socialize before we finalize
15:12:30 <ivan> ... we should (not formally) agressively disseminate it to get comments
15:12:44 <garth> q+
15:12:46 <ivan> ... I think the CG is charted with finalzied it and the BG approving it
15:12:51 <dauwhe> q+
15:12:57 <liisamk> ack garth
15:13:11 <ivan> garth: I believe Makoto requested a 2 months review cycle, which sounds me as a fine idea
15:13:18 <ivan> ... it is good summer reading :-)
15:13:41 <liisamk> ack dauwhe
15:13:44 <ivan> Bill_Kasdorf: that is certainly an adequate time for people to comment...
15:13:52 <ivan> dauwhe: I would ask for a formal vote on the CG to go for wide review
15:14:07 <ivan> ... at that point it is not yet a BG vote
15:14:25 <ivan> ... 2 months wide review, we will respond all comments
15:14:42 <garth> +1
15:14:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:14:43 <ivan> .... at that point we will ask for a blessing of the BG
15:14:43 <liisamk> +1
15:14:44 <Rachel> +1
15:14:45 <ivan> q+
15:14:58 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:14:58 <liisamk> ack ivan
15:15:02 <dauwhe> ivan: I am ok with that
15:15:18 <jyoshii> +1
15:15:23 <dauwhe> ... let's be prepared for comments coming in that if we model w3c process then we will also need proof of implementations
15:15:31 <dauwhe> ... I don't know if we can do that
15:15:55 <dauwhe> ... I am sure that there are some people who I won't mention who will make this point
15:16:02 <garth> q+
15:16:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm not sure if that will happen
15:16:11 <dauwhe> ivan: let's just be prepared
15:16:12 <liisamk> q+
15:16:26 <liisamk> ack garth
15:16:33 <dauwhe> garth: we set out on this to do this work more closely aligned with IDPF process in maintenance mode
15:16:51 <dauwhe> ... but this spec is bringing things in line with 3.0.1, and there are tons of implementations
15:17:06 <dauwhe> ... Google Play books, kobo, apple... you can make the case the entire spec is implemented
15:17:14 <dauwhe> ivan: that's fudging things, but yes :)
15:17:16 <ivan> q+
15:17:30 <dauwhe> liisamk: what do you mean by fudging?
15:17:46 <dauwhe> garth: I don't think you can point to a single implementation that does everything
15:17:52 <tzviya> q+
15:17:54 <dauwhe> ivan: w3c allows that--it's feature-by-feature
15:18:07 <dauwhe> ... 3.2 adds things that are not in 3.0.1
15:18:08 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:18:10 <ivan> ack ivan
15:18:22 <liisamk> q+
15:18:22 <dauwhe> ... we must be prepared for such comments
15:18:32 <dauwhe> ... what we are doing here is still sortof the idpf process
15:18:52 <dauwhe> ... so if we are careful on the public message that we are not talking about w3c process
15:18:53 <dauwhe> q+
15:18:58 <dauwhe> ... that may help
15:19:03 <garth> ack tzviya
15:19:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm not sure if you're familiar with testing, but I can show how we do the testing for w3c specs, with automated processes and documentation
15:19:50 <dauwhe> ... we'd need to create tests etc
15:20:02 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:20:12 <dauwhe> liisamk: when we say wide review, do we want to use the international coordination body to help?
15:20:17 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: yes, that's appropriate
15:20:21 <garth> q?
15:20:24 <garth> ack dauwhe
15:20:33 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
15:20:44 <ivan> dauwhe: we can use the language of the CG process, which actually controls us
15:20:50 <ivan> ... we are just doing some optional thing
15:21:02 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:21:02 <ivan> ... I would try to avoid rec-track language in this communication
15:21:04 <garth> q?
15:21:06 <liisamk> q+
15:21:16 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:21:31 <dauwhe> liisamk: George, Garth... how's the timing based on that thing we shall not mention
15:22:24 <dauwhe> garth: the copyright attorney has approved language in the current spec with joint copyright, and the appropriate trademark
15:22:34 <dauwhe> ... he doesn't see a problem with proceeding
15:23:14 <garth> q?
15:23:15 <dauwhe> dauwhe: sounds like we have a rough plan. Cool!
15:23:23 <dauwhe> garth: it's a smooth and polished plan :)
15:23:37 <dauwhe> Topic: language around fundraising for EPUBCheck
15:23:46 <dauwhe> liisamk: did anyone look at the rough levels?
15:24:05 <ivan> Chair: liisamk
15:24:06 <RickJ> q+
15:24:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: BillM was going to write the draft language for the fundraising
15:24:13 <ivan> regrets+ Luc
15:24:18 <dauwhe> ... if we don't have fundraising we can't respond to the RFP
15:24:31 <dauwhe> ... so if anyone else can write copy like this, please help!
15:24:47 <dauwhe> RickJ: the other thing I mentioned last week...
15:25:00 <dauwhe> ... a few of us who know our companies will be contributing
15:25:12 <tzviya> q+
15:25:13 <dauwhe> ... a statement from those people about money already being committed will help
15:25:16 <dauwhe> liisamk: good idea
15:25:21 <liisamk> ack RickJ
15:25:29 <dauwhe> ???: can I get a water for you?
15:25:37 <dauwhe> George: I agree with Garth
15:25:46 <Rachel> q+
15:25:46 <dauwhe> ???: would you like a sandwich?
15:26:06 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with rick's comments, but we won't have a website without someone to write the copy
15:26:12 <dauwhe> ... any suggestions on who could do that?
15:26:19 <liisamk> ack tzviya
15:26:31 <dauwhe> Rachel: I have no experience, but I can put my creative writing degree to work :)
15:26:33 <ivan> present+ rachel
15:26:37 <liisamk> q+
15:26:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> I can endorse Rachel's editorial skills :)
15:27:00 <dauwhe> George: this is pretty straightforward. I can help
15:27:05 <dauwhe> Rachel: thanks george!
15:27:14 <liisamk> ack Rachel
15:27:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:27:19 <liisamk> ack liisamk
15:27:20 <dauwhe> liisamk: Rachel and George, if you can get started, it's easier to edit than write
15:27:41 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Since I"m not on the agenda... I've made some progress with external coordination task force
15:28:11 <dauwhe> ... I mentioned last time we've had a spread sheet of organizations in various parts of the world or interest groups
15:28:20 <dauwhe> ... with the name of the task force owner
15:28:37 <dauwhe> ... the BG was interested in getting that spreadsheet and using it for RFP and fundraising
15:28:44 <dauwhe> ... most folks were fine with that
15:29:25 <dauwhe> ... would the BG send this out, or should the individuals contact the people they already know?
15:29:56 <dauwhe> ... does that sound good?
15:29:59 <dauwhe> liisamk: I think so
15:30:12 <dauwhe> ... Luc is on our taskforce
15:30:42 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: just a progress report. When the appeal is drafted, we can help send it out.
15:31:23 <dauwhe> liisamk: can we double back on fundraising?
15:31:37 <dauwhe> ... Rick, you mentioned that it would be good for people to make committments to get started
15:31:50 <garth> q+
15:31:51 <dauwhe> ... can anyone get such a commitment before the PBG call next week?
15:32:03 <dauwhe> RickJ: I'm working on this with the coresource team to get the top people there
15:32:37 <dauwhe> Rachel: i can get such a committment
15:32:45 <dauwhe> liisamk: I can't promise anything
15:33:24 <dauwhe> garth: I'm 98% sure, but whether I can say something by next week I'm not sure
15:33:59 <dauwhe> liisamk: do we expect light attendance on Tuesday?
15:34:21 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: even if we finalize the copy on Tuesday, we should wait until the next week to send stuff out
15:34:21 <tzviya> q+
15:34:36 <garth> q-
15:34:40 <garth> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:34:44 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:35:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: I don't think we're likely to have copy by Tuesday
15:35:13 <dauwhe> ... we need a few weeks to get the website ready
15:35:20 <liisamk> ack tzviya
15:35:28 <dauwhe> ... we can talk about fundraising and say we'll have a website in a few weeks
15:35:39 <dauwhe> liisamk: we just talk about it on Tuesday, and ask for public statements
15:36:09 <dauwhe> Topic: Audio
15:36:12 <garth> q?
15:36:18 <garth> q+
15:36:20 <dauwhe> ... I wasn't a part of the conversations about the audio task force
15:36:29 <dauwhe> ... did that work come up as a requirement?
15:36:32 <tzviya> q+
15:36:39 <dauwhe> ... should we start it in the business group to get requirements?
15:37:08 <dauwhe> ... my concern is that kobo driving this as a quickly advancing part of the business might not get all the requirements
15:37:15 <dauwhe> ... and might create a side spec
15:37:39 <dauwhe> garth: there are two audio task forces. one is synchronized media, and the other is audio books
15:37:42 <liisamk> ack garth
15:37:49 <dauwhe> ... the idea is for audio WPs to work just as text WPs would work
15:38:13 <dauwhe> ... it has gotten a lot of initial interest and participation, widely from atypon to google to kobo to readium
15:38:36 <tzviya> audio TF: https://github.com/w3c/publ-wg/wiki/Audiobooks-TF
15:38:37 <dauwhe> ... what is going on now is figuring out how to encode audio books in the current wp spec
15:38:55 <dauwhe> ... I don't want to slow down the momentum in the WG TF
15:39:06 <ivan> current experimentation for audio in WP: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/tree/master/experiments/audiobook
15:39:15 <dauwhe> ... I know how screwed up audio delivery is, so I hope this helps
15:39:26 <garth> ack tzviya
15:39:30 <dauwhe> q+ George
15:39:47 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with garth. I forget who proposed the tf, it came up at the F2F
15:40:05 <dauwhe> ... the main idea is that audio seems to fit into WP right now, and we wanted to get that started
15:40:15 <dauwhe> ... it seems all the reading systems are active in the task force
15:40:37 <ivan> q+
15:40:38 <dauwhe> ... this won't address syncronized media, but we want to be compatible with that
15:41:02 <dauwhe> George: the TF is focused on putting audio spec into WP, and it seems to be going well
15:41:12 <dauwhe> ... I think the requirements are there
15:41:26 <dauwhe> ... there's no synchronized media in that audio spec
15:41:43 <dauwhe> ... and Avneesh is quick to remind me it's audio with navigation
15:41:55 <dauwhe> ... my concerns
15:42:12 <dauwhe> ... 1. the audio industry needs something on a tighter schedule than w3c process can provide
15:42:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:42:35 <liisamk> ack George
15:42:41 <ivan> ack George
15:42:56 <dauwhe> ... 2. In epub 3.2 with media overlays, if we don't have the text but have a nav doc, you have an audio book with navigation
15:43:06 <dauwhe> ... but I don't think the industry sees that as viable
15:43:31 <dauwhe> ... so I don't know what we should promote
15:43:45 <dauwhe> ... and MO EPUB 3.2 audio books should be easily converted to WP audio books
15:43:54 <dauwhe> ivan: to add to what was said
15:44:17 <dauwhe> ... from WP point of view, the important point is whether it is appropriate for audio books
15:44:26 <dauwhe> ... we want to be sure we're not missing anything
15:44:26 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/tree/master/experiments/audiobook
15:45:19 <liisamk> ack ivan
15:45:20 <ivan> regrets+ billm
15:45:28 <liisamk> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:45:29 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: re george's concern about timing for the WG getting to REC
15:45:42 <dauwhe> ... that seems to be a best practices thing
15:45:52 <dauwhe> ... should BISG do something?
15:45:57 <garth> q?
15:45:59 <garth> q+
15:45:59 <dauwhe> Rachel: it's not on the list for best practices
15:46:03 <liisamk> q+
15:46:12 <ivan> ack garth
15:46:46 <dauwhe> garth: responding to George, what we have with MO in epub 3.2, but that's for syncronized text and audio, but I can't see that gaining traction in the short run as audio books
15:47:07 <dauwhe> ... but in the general audio book space, there's no sync
15:47:20 <dauwhe> ... and the audio rights may be disconnected from other parts of the book
15:47:45 <dauwhe> ... I think WP can string together audio files, and it could be a boon for publishers in time
15:48:01 <ivan> q+
15:48:27 <dauwhe> George: you know that with MO you don't have to have text, you can have just audio and nav, and it's legitimate
15:48:31 <dauwhe> garth: yes, I know that
15:48:45 <dauwhe> ... that's a valid point. Do we want to encourage that? it's an interesting question
15:49:01 <dauwhe> George: if we don't think that MO is a short-term solution for the industry now
15:49:24 <dauwhe> ... we should make that decision
15:49:25 <tzviya> q+
15:49:48 <dauwhe> ... then we need to figure out something that would meet that need, and it could be an accelerated implemenation of WP audio books
15:49:57 <dauwhe> ... knowing it could change as the spec becomes more mature
15:50:00 <garth> ack liisamk
15:50:15 <dauwhe> liisamk: we're in this place with a business expanding RIGHT NOW
15:50:27 <dauwhe> ... whatever interim solutions will settle down
15:50:39 <dauwhe> ... the people joining the market will be smaller and smaller
15:50:59 <dauwhe> ... it's just how do we get audio with nav out there
15:51:18 <dauwhe> ivan: going back to liisamk's question
15:51:30 <dauwhe> ... the new version of WP in draft will be out in one or two weeks
15:51:58 <dauwhe> ... this will be very different from previous versions, due to having manifest serialization, schema.org, etc
15:52:08 <dauwhe> ... at some point we should have the BG look at this
15:52:21 <liisamk> ack ivan
15:52:22 <dauwhe> ... we'll need wider feedback
15:52:41 <dauwhe> ... and that would include an experimental WP audio book
15:52:48 <dauwhe> ... which might answer your concerns
15:53:01 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:53:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: the business question comes in
15:53:27 <dauwhe> ... there's a sync media group, what WP is doing is just audio+nav
15:53:34 <liisamk> q+
15:53:39 <dauwhe> ... maybe we should accelerate this, after BG review
15:53:54 <dauwhe> ... you don't have to wait for REC to implement
15:54:10 <dauwhe> ivan: you have to implement before REC :)
15:54:22 <dauwhe> liisamk: this should be added to the BG agenda
15:55:13 <garth> q+
15:55:17 <garth> ack liisamk
15:55:22 <ivan> ack liisamk
15:55:27 <dauwhe> ... nobody on the business side of supplying files seemed to know about this, or think something wasn't working
15:55:30 <liisamk> ack garth
15:55:55 <dauwhe> garth: some of the excitement is kobo and us and readium in the position of ingesting lots of audio books, and know it was a mess
15:56:07 <dauwhe> ... and we hope that WP could clean up the mess
15:56:22 <dauwhe> ... we want more involvement from the BG with prototyping etc
15:56:51 <dauwhe> tzviya: Luc was interested in this, but didnt have the bandwidth to lead the TF
15:57:20 <garth> q?
15:57:24 <dauwhe> liisamk: I'm concerned about hitting the marks we set up about how we organized all the groups, giving people the opportunity to participate at all levels
15:57:36 <garth> Indeed!
15:57:55 <dauwhe> liisamk: do we have an agenda for next week?
15:58:10 <dauwhe> ... RFP for epubcheck and fundraising and web site, and committments for funding
15:58:20 <dauwhe> ... epub 3.2 on track for wide review this summer
15:58:35 <dauwhe> ... international coordination with both of those things
15:58:41 <dauwhe> ... talk about audio task force
15:59:05 <dauwhe> ... and requirements for handling missing pages from print
15:59:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:59:23 <dauwhe> ... how do we start collecting these issues, and how do we develop best practices around them
15:59:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: luc wanted to report on road map task force
16:00:11 <dauwhe> liisamk: anything else for next week?
16:00:35 <dauwhe> George: I would like to get onto the SC agenda a discussion how we transition our IDPF temp members into W3C
16:02:38 <jyoshii> bye. goodnight.
16:06:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/06/29-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan