12:42:16 RRSAgent has joined #pwg 12:42:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/05/31-pwg-irc 12:42:17 rrsagent, set log public 12:42:17 Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F, Day 2 12:42:17 Chair: Tzviya, Garth 12:42:17 Date: 2018-05-31 12:42:17 Regrets+ 12:42:17 Agenda: https://tinyurl.com/y9g4fgat 12:42:17 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-05-31: https://tinyurl.com/y9g4fgat 12:42:25 present+ 12:42:37 present+ 12:42:42 present+ 12:42:46 present + 12:42:48 laudrain has joined #pwg 12:42:52 present+ 12:42:53 present+ 12:42:58 present+ Luc 12:43:03 present+ dauwhe 12:44:11 Avneesh has joined #pwg 12:44:19 present+ bigbluehat, marisa, charles, rickj, leonardr, george, avneesh, tzviya, rachel 12:44:33 tzviya has joined #pwg 12:44:36 present+ 12:44:46 garth has joined #pwg 12:46:08 scribenick: duga 12:46:14 scribenick: duga 12:46:31 RickJ has joined #pwg 12:46:37 present+ RickJ 12:46:48 Ivan: Some remarks before the topic 12:46:58 George has joined #pwg 12:47:02 Rachel has joined #pwg 12:47:08 ... there is a new column in the wiki for where we got 12:47:17 present+George 12:47:23 ... please cross check to make sure it is correct (AI for all) 12:47:31 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Descriptive-Infoset-Properties-vs.-Schema.org-table 12:47:57 Tzviya: This will be Minday's agenda item 12:48:07 guest+ Kroner_the_Wonderful_Guide_Dog 12:48:08 BenWaltersMS has joined #pwg 12:48:11 s/Minday's/Monday's/ 12:48:13 s/Minday's/Monday's? 12:48:14 present+ 12:48:30 dkaplan3 has joined #pwg 12:48:30 Topic: Affordances and use cases 12:48:31 present+ Garth 12:48:39 present+ 12:48:42 present+ 12:48:53 ... some of know what affordances mean 12:49:02 ... some prefer functionality as a word 12:49:18 ... basically, what should a UA do when it sees things from our spec 12:49:34 ... ties in to use cases, which provide stories of what we want to happen 12:49:58 ... make sure use cases represent what we need 12:50:09 ... and make sure affordances issues we have are up to date 12:50:49 ... Make sure everyone has an assignment to write an affordance section 12:51:10 q+ 12:51:20 ... George and Avneesh can help with templates/writing 12:51:46 Ivan: to help Matt, if there are no problems, put it in a pull request 12:52:32 Tzviya: Will send out a recording on Respec training session 12:52:54 ... Need to address UA vs document requirements/expectaitions 12:53:07 q? 12:53:10 ack ivan 12:53:10 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances 12:53:16 marisa has joined #pwg 12:53:36 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-affordances 12:54:51 bigbluehat: Use cases are a story of what tasks we want to do 12:55:08 ... affordances are the things in a document that allow those stories to happen 12:56:00 ... Mugs afford holding things. 12:56:30 see mugs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance 12:56:40 tzviya: Let's look at github 12:57:15 ... look at issue 134 12:57:21 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/134#issuecomment-385011630 12:57:26 rdeltour has joined #pwg 12:57:55 zheng_xu has joined #pwg 12:57:56 ... dependencies, requirements, examples, and how to test for each affordance 12:58:56 ... assigning AIs to people (going through the issues) 12:59:21 q? 12:59:27 present+ 13:00:06 david_stroup has joined #pwg 13:00:15 tzviya: bookshelf is afforded by our spec, but will not write a bookshelf spec 13:00:28 bigbluehat: But we can afford things that will help (eg cover) 13:00:42 wendyreid: Don't tell us what to do with the bookshelf 13:00:55 tzviya: Consensus: close the issue 13:01:14 q? 13:01:15 q+ 13:01:30 DavidWood: Should we have a resolution that says we commit to providing this stuff as part of the spec? 13:02:13 wendyreid: We need enough information to provide a shelf (eg series) 13:02:36 ack leonardr 13:02:42 q+ 13:02:49 tzviya: Resolution: we will provide metadata, and UA can do whatever we want with it 13:03:17 Proposed Resolution: minimal metadata required for a shelf system to present a publication are: identifier and title OR cover? 13:03:26 leonardr: Remove section 7.2 13:03:42 ack RickJ 13:03:44 Proposed Resolution: minimal metadata required for a shelf system to present a publication are: identifier and title OR cover? Remove Section 7.2 13:04:19 present+ 13:04:23 RickJ: We are saying we will supply something. Are we saying this is the *only* way? 13:04:30 q+ 13:04:39 ack bigbluehat 13:05:15 +1 13:05:17 +1 13:05:18 +1 13:05:18 +1 13:05:18 +1 13:05:18 +1 13:05:19 +1 13:05:20 +1 13:05:21 +1 13:05:21 bigbluehat: There will be more metadata, but there should be minimal info available. 13:05:21 +1 13:05:24 +1 13:05:25 +1 13:05:26 +1 13:05:26 +1 13:05:27 +1 13:05:27 zheng__xu has joined #pwg 13:05:28 +1 13:05:28 +1 13:05:29 q? 13:05:29 +1 13:05:32 +1 13:05:36 Resolved: minimal metadata required for a shelf system to present a publication are: identifier and title OR cover. Remove Section 7.2 13:05:37 +1 13:05:40 present+ 13:06:06 present+ 13:06:13 present+ 13:07:18 present+ 13:07:41 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/145 13:07:57 q+ 13:08:20 Subtopic: reading state 13:08:20 ack Rachel 13:08:21 bigbluehat: This is reading state 13:08:22 q+ 13:08:33 q+ 13:08:47 ack garth 13:08:52 q+ 13:08:57 wendyreid: Is this local or remote? 13:09:01 q+ 13:09:19 garth: What are we saying? Is this in scope? 13:09:36 ack bigbluehat 13:09:44 i/Let's look at github/Subtopic: bookshelfs/ 13:10:00 bigbluehat: Saving state on a web page means knowing scroll location 13:10:14 ... Then it is up to the UA to remember that state 13:10:49 ... in a WP, there is a way to get to resource X, and remember where we are in that resource (scroll location? Page? etc) 13:11:09 q? 13:11:19 ack dauwhe 13:11:23 tzviya: Need to have information for what authors need to do, and what UA need to do with it 13:11:23 q? 13:11:27 ack wendyreid 13:11:41 ivan: And need the minimal information (most important) 13:11:58 q+ 13:11:58 q+ 13:12:01 q 13:12:02 q+ 13:12:10 q+ 13:12:24 wendyreid: Have to make reading state a possibility, but up to UA to decide if local or remote, etc 13:12:35 ack bigbluehat 13:12:44 wendyreid: Will write this issue [yay!] 13:13:21 q+ 13:13:32 q+ 13:13:44 q- 13:13:48 q- 13:13:55 bigbluehat: For this case, one thing we might need is reading direction (or maybe not) 13:14:29 George: When wp are updated, can we say anything about ids on elements? Or will they just always be trashed? 13:14:33 ack George 13:14:38 q- 13:14:47 q- 13:15:00 bigbluehat: What does keeping them around afford? 13:15:05 ... Return to anchor? 13:15:27 George: Yes. Having ids that don't change would help the industry. 13:16:15 q+ 13:16:24 q+ 13:16:31 q- 13:16:56 rachel +1 13:16:57 +1 to assigning things and solving them async 13:17:05 Rachel: Let's just assign here, not discuss in detail here 13:17:15 Suptopic: moving forward and backward 13:17:20 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/144 13:17:33 bendugas has joined #pwg 13:18:06 Rachel: I'll take 144 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/144 13:19:05 dauwhe and bigbluehat can take 144 13:19:38 dkaplan3: What is the schedule one these? 13:19:43 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/140 13:19:46 tzviya: Will discuss that shortly 13:20:53 q? 13:21:02 ack Rachel 13:21:10 tzviya: Close issue 140? 13:21:35 q? 13:21:37 bigbluehat: If we know what is navigable that affords the ability to navigate to it 13:21:57 marisa: Do we need more than just 1 view of the TOC? 13:23:23 Avneesh: propose closing the item just assigned to clapierre 13:23:59 leonardr: propose closing issue 137 13:24:09 tzviya: This is already in the draft 13:24:22 Rachel: Important for education, can't just dismiss it 13:24:27 q? 13:24:29 q+ 13:24:42 leonardr: UA can paginate or not 13:25:03 garth: This is just UA paginatiing the content 13:25:22 Rachel: The use case for EDU which is real pages is in this section (use cases) 13:25:29 ack ivan 13:25:39 q? 13:25:47 q+ 13:26:20 ivan: The real question is, pagination is important, UAs will do it how they want, but does the info set have everything the UA needs to do it? 13:26:23 q+ 13:26:27 ack garth 13:26:40 garth: We have spine, we have html, that can be paginated 13:27:03 ... This issue is about UA paginating, we should close and make a new issue for going back to real pages 13:27:09 q+ 13:27:25 tzviya: Page numbering != page layout (css) 13:27:35 q+ 13:27:37 ... still need page numbering affordance 13:27:59 josh: Would like this issue 13:28:01 q? 13:28:12 ack josh 13:28:17 ack leonardr 13:28:25 ack dkaplan 13:28:26 ... Will say no more here. Will put it in github. 13:28:41 ack dkaplan 13:28:48 dkaplan3: request we stop using the word pagination. 13:28:50 +1 to dkaplan3's request for nuance in language about pagination 13:29:00 +1 to dkaplan3 13:29:01 ... should explicitly state what it means 13:29:04 +1 to dkaplan3 13:29:04 +1 dkaplan3 13:29:16 q? 13:29:54 tzviya: issue 135 13:30:04 ... already proposed to close. Let's do it! 13:30:10 ... Vote to close 13:30:14 +1 13:30:19 Propose: closing #135 13:30:23 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/135 13:30:23 +1 13:30:25 +1 13:30:28 +1 13:30:31 +1 13:30:34 +1 13:30:38 q+ 13:30:38 +1 13:30:47 ack bigbluehat 13:30:54 q+ 13:30:55 +1 13:31:20 q+ 13:31:54 q? 13:31:55 bigbluehat: If data is included, can it be directly navigated to? Are we restricting by type? 13:32:11 q? 13:32:11 ack leonardr 13:32:14 q+ 13:33:01 leonardr: Resource list might want something to say what the resource is intended for 13:33:13 ack ivan 13:33:31 ivan: This will come up when we discuss structure later 13:34:25 ack DavidWood 13:34:28 ... we need to add a way to specify the role, type, etc 13:34:36 ... so we need an affordance 13:34:58 DavidWood: Published documents are where data goes to die 13:35:07 plinss has joined #pwg 13:35:12 ... How do we cite, use, etc, published data? 13:35:24 q+ 13:36:07 Data management in scholarly publications is a massive problem that will not be solved by WPs, though. 13:36:26 ... Suggest not closing this 13:36:28 Size of the data may also be a factor here along with type. 13:36:58 laudrain has left #pwg 13:36:59 George: This issue impacts a11y 13:37:06 q+ 13:37:12 laudrain has joined #pwg 13:37:16 cmaden2 has joined #pwg 13:37:18 ... eg chemistry formulas that can be manipulated 13:38:01 tzviya: Alternative modalities issue 13:38:23 ... enable audio books, graphic books, mixed media 13:38:39 ... could have 2 in 1 (picture book with audio) 13:38:39 q? 13:38:48 ack George 13:39:03 q+ 13:39:17 q- 13:40:01 ack garth 13:40:24 garth: in the real world, audiobooks are whatever you get (hard drives, etc) 13:40:49 q+ 13:41:06 ... But this is about multiple renditions, let's not address it here 13:41:07 q+ 13:41:26 ivan: Still don't understand what 133 says 13:41:34 q+ 13:41:56 ack dauwhe 13:42:08 marisa: Having multiple media types [?] at the same time 13:42:26 dauwhe: Can an item in the default reading order be an audio file? 13:43:11 dauwhe: UA have proscribed behavior for dealing with raw audio files 13:43:45 ivan: Can we just require the entry point be html, and let the current standards handle the rest? 13:43:51 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsing-the-web.html#read-media 13:44:05 q? 13:44:09 ack Avneesh 13:44:17 Avneesh: This overlaps with 135 13:44:24 ... need navigable audio 13:44:42 ack bigbluehat 13:44:59 q+ 13:45:19 bigbluehat: There is a text version, there is an audio version, etc, this is chapter 1 13:45:53 ack dkaplan 13:46:00 garth: That is multiple renditions, let's not do it 13:46:01 q+ 13:46:16 ack George 13:46:41 George: Does this item deal with TTS? 13:46:58 q? 13:47:30 ivan: Not really, since html already provides that affordance 13:47:45 tzviya: Issue 138. This has been beaten to death 13:47:49 ... propose we close it 13:48:02 Close: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/38 13:48:11 s/138/38/ 13:48:46 Avneesh: Back to page numbers - are we splitting? 13:49:00 tzviya: The assignee will split it 13:49:16 tzviya: Issue 146 13:49:47 ... thinks this is already accomplished 13:49:56 RickJ has joined #pwg 13:49:59 ... but still need spec text 13:50:20 George: Doesn't understand scope of TOC? Authored? UA generated? 13:50:38 tzviya: Generally authored, but could be generated, but always needs to be available 13:50:45 George: Will TOC be required? 13:50:53 ivan: It is in the basic infoset 13:51:03 George: Required? 13:51:07 ivan: No. 13:51:34 tzviya: Thinks TOC should be required 13:52:04 George: Is there just one TOC? 13:52:09 q+ 13:52:20 q? 13:52:20 josh: Not happy there is a nav and manifest toc 13:52:36 ivan: Yes, there is a mechanism whose aim is that a TOC appear only once 13:52:49 ack dkaplan 13:53:10 tzviya: Issue 149, search 13:53:25 bigbluehat: Search as a service, and an affordance 13:53:30 q? 13:53:31 Subtopic: search 13:53:43 q+ 13:53:49 ... what do we need to know as a publication to enable search? 13:53:58 ack ivan 13:54:00 q+ 13:54:07 ... What is navigable? etc 13:54:28 ivan: Search in UA and search somewhere else on the web 13:54:48 ... need to separate these two. Search service is out of scope. 13:54:59 ... we need to look at local UA search 13:55:08 tzviya +1 13:55:10 tzviya: Who wants this item? 13:55:43 leonardr: Will take it 13:57:02 Topic: Structural property 14:15:27 zheng_xu has joined #pwg 14:20:37 BenWaltersMS has joined #pwg 14:20:42 scribenick: BenWaltersMS 14:22:16 topic: Structural Properties 14:22:40 q+ 14:22:51 JunGamo_ has joined #pwg 14:22:56 ack leonardr 14:23:12 ack ivan 14:23:27 rdeltour has joined #pwg 14:23:33 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#infoset-structure 14:24:00 ivan: For structural properties, we have two different categories of issues. Structural properties under different headings are links to various types of resources. 14:24:27 rdeltour_ has joined #pwg 14:24:33 ... Before we discuss the details of these lists, we need to talk about how we reference these types of resources. A simple URL may not be enough, and we need to define how we handle these links in general. 14:25:10 q+ 14:25:26 ack leonardr 14:25:40 dauwhe has joined #pwg 14:25:42 leonardr: what is table of contents in this context? 14:25:57 q+ 14:25:59 q? 14:26:13 tzviya: TOC is the primary method of navigation for most users, generally left to the author or publisher to define 14:27:07 ack dauwhe 14:27:40 "spine": [ "a.html", "b.html", "c.html", "d.html", "e.html" ] 14:27:45 q+ 14:28:07 q+ 14:28:19 {"href": "c001.html", "type": "text/html", "title": "Chapter 1"}, 14:28:25 ivan: the first question--how do I represent external links in json manifest? Do we need to require a media type? Do we need additional metadata like required/not, etc.? 14:29:26 q+ 14:29:47 q+ 14:29:50 or more completely "spine": [ {"href": "c001.html", "type": "text/html", "title": "Chapter 1"}, {"href": "c002.html", "type": "text/html", "title": "Chapter 2"}] 14:29:52 q+ 14:30:03 DavidWood has joined #pwg 14:30:06 q+ 14:30:35 dauwhe: pasted above are a few possible serializations of resource links, either simple, or with additional metadata. I don't want to reflexively take on the complexity of EPUB where we have to look up mime types for every resource type that does not benefit the author. 14:31:20 ack tzviya 14:31:28 ... I want to avoid making the simple case that complex. For cases like moby dick, repeating mimetype more than 100 times is not great 14:32:22 q? 14:32:27 tzviya: we need to take into consideration things like CSV files. Is it too hard for a machine to understand that .CSV is a CSV? 14:33:19 Brady: I have no intention of using the media type for primary cases. There may be cases where we need the media type to skip things like images. 14:33:22 ack bigbluehat 14:33:34 https://github.com/BigBlueHat/this-is-not-a.pdf 14:33:39 q+ to ask whether much of the infoset will be ignored 14:35:17 bigbluehat: these lists need to afford some functionality for users. The model for the web is that the browser only cares about things like types when it tries to render the actual content. It doesn't guess from the URL or anything provided by the user. 14:36:10 ... there are additional things like type="text/csv" where a browser can be informed in advance of more information. Browsers will still render the format detected after following the link, even if it's different than the type declared in the link. 14:36:17 ack josh 14:38:52 q+ 14:38:56 ack ivan 14:39:08 josh: I have a dream of a single file web publication. Originally, web pages were linear simple entities with an ordered hierarchy... I hope that that for simple cases, I can tag the HTML to support features like navigation without having to create external resources, repeat structural data, etc. 14:40:41 q+ 14:41:13 ivan: Right now, we can do a one file publication (by putting the data in a script element in the page). My proposal for links from the manifest is that references can either to be a URL directly as a string or an object that may contain additional metadata about the link. 14:41:25 "spine": [ "a.html", { "href": "b.html", "media-type": "text/html", "rel": "toc" }, "c.html", "d.html", "e.html" ], 14:42:04 +1 to Ivan 14:42:33 ... we can work out details about whether we use various rel/extended vocabularies for specific features like cover or privacy policy, but we need a mixture of simple and complex references to enable these scenarios. 14:42:35 ack leonardr 14:42:36 http://schema.org/StructuredValue 14:42:43 http://schema.org/fileFormat 14:42:45 q- 14:43:35 leonardr: in the spirit of using elements of schema.org whenever applicable, there are some existing schemas that may apply to resource lists/files, etc. pasted above. 14:43:43 ack zheng_xu 14:44:38 q? 14:44:40 q+ 14:45:10 zheng_xu: just to clarify: TOC is not reading order, and things like media type is less important for TOC, more important for the core reading order. For example, we use metadata about resources to determine how to load resources--to include MathJax, for example 14:45:28 q? 14:45:33 ack laudrain 14:45:55 ... media types can be helpful for cases where UAs need to understand content types without loading all of that content 14:46:44 laudrain: For accessibilty, we need a real navigation list which is not the same as visual content. 14:47:43