19:55:44 RRSAgent has joined #dxwg 19:55:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/05/29-dxwg-irc 19:55:54 rrsagent, make logs public 19:56:08 chair: PWinstanley 19:56:18 present+ 19:56:53 antoine has joined #dxwg 19:57:19 regrets+ Alejandra, Riccardo, Adam Sisco 19:58:32 roba has joined #dxwg 19:58:32 LarsG has joined #dxwg 19:58:39 present+ 19:58:49 present+ 19:59:40 present+ 20:00:27 rrsagent, create minutes v2 20:00:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/29-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley 20:00:55 present+ 20:01:25 phila has joined #dxwg 20:01:51 Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg 20:02:01 present+ 20:02:45 annette_g has joined #dxwg 20:03:11 present+ 20:04:08 present+ 20:04:34 Meeting: DXWG Fortnightly 20:04:43 scribe: phila 20:04:48 scribeNick: phila 20:04:59 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.05.29 20:05:02 PWinstanley: Check that everyone agrees to the agenda 20:05:11 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.05.29 20:05:18 [no comment] 20:05:32 Topic: last meeting minutes 20:05:47 https://www.w3.org/2018/05/22-dxwg-minutes 20:06:12 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/05/22-dxwg-minutes previous minutes 20:06:26 PROPOSED: Accept previous minutes https://www.w3.org/2018/05/22-dxwg-minutes 20:06:29 +1 20:06:34 +1 20:06:35 0 20:06:38 +1 20:06:39 +1 20:06:47 +1 20:06:50 RESOLVED: Accept previous minutes https://www.w3.org/2018/05/22-dxwg-minutes 20:06:54 +1 20:07:12 Topic: DCAT FPWD 20:07:23 q+ 20:07:24 DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg 20:07:26 PWinstanley: Need to have a brief convo about the publicity for that 20:07:32 ... Look at the spreadsheet of contacts 20:07:43 ... Note actions already taken 20:07:46 q? 20:08:05 PWinstanley: Two ontology and KD conferences in the UL recently have highlighted it 20:08:17 ack kcoyle 20:08:20 ack kcoyle 20:08:29 present+ 20:09:05 kcoyle: We got a note through twitter. There was a brief comment. I asked them to let the person know and to speak to the commnet list. Maybe I should post that comment myself 20:09:42 PWinstanley: This highlights... we need to be sure that comments are received and processed approipriately. That means acknowledging the comment, thanking them then puttin git into an action 20:09:52 ... Needs to be taken up by the DCAT sub WG 20:10:25 ... If you get a comment directly, pass it on pubicly - we need the sound evidence base 20:10:41 ... Need to be able to show wide publicity 20:10:46 Ixchel has joined #dxwg 20:10:50 present+ 20:10:54 ... Please fill in the spreadsheet appropriately 20:11:22 q? 20:11:25 ... It's the direct contact and conference presentations that gets the responses. 20:11:41 phila: I tweeted at https://twitter.com/philarcher1/status/999194608327380993 and got some traction 20:12:13 PWinstanley: After the Genoa F2F, we decided we'd have plenary meetings weekly again as the workload is increasing. 20:12:27 Topic: Profile Guidance Group 20:12:37 RRSAgent, draft minutes 20:12:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/29-dxwg-minutes.html phila 20:12:41 q? 20:12:48 q+ 20:13:00 PWinstanley: I'd like to check the members are antoine, roba and LarsG 20:13:12 PWinstanley: Is there a schedule of meetings? 20:13:18 ack kcoyle 20:13:20 ack kcoyle 20:13:22 q+ 20:13:27 kcoyle: I know that Nick has expressed an interest 20:13:33 ... we can add him of course. 20:14:04 ... I updated the draft, which has very little in it at the moment, as proposed in Genoa. But we still don't have our requirements 20:14:07 q+ 20:14:09 ... we need that before we start 20:14:12 ack roba 20:14:15 ack roba 20:14:35 roba: It's not so much the requirements, as open questions, what gets done where 20:14:39 AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg 20:14:44 present+ AndreaPerego 20:14:57 roba: I'm concerned that we don't have enough people with experience of DCAT profiles in the group 20:15:05 q+ 20:15:16 PWinstanley: So we need cross-pollination from DCAT 20:15:27 ack antoine 20:15:33 q? 20:15:38 q+ to mention Stijn 20:15:59 antoine: In a way, the editorial group has started to work out the position of the documents. 20:16:09 ... Not concrete progress but it takes a bit of time 20:16:18 ack kcoyle 20:16:21 ... perhaps Karen's point about requiremnets is a good one 20:16:36 kcoyle: Just to remind folks that the guidance doc is not just about DCAT profiles. 20:16:46 ... DCAT profile experience is only one part. 20:17:01 ... My assumption is that the guidance is about profiles in general 20:17:05 ack phila 20:17:05 phila, you wanted to mention Stijn 20:18:13 phila: Highlights that Stijn was importsnt in the DCAT-AP story in his earlier work 20:18:25 s/importsnt/important 20:18:32 Topic: Open Action Items 20:19:01 action-110? 20:19:01 action-110 -- Karen Coyle to Find better wording for 216 especially "extend" -- due 2018-05-15 -- OPEN 20:19:01 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/110 20:19:10 kcoyle: I keep forgetting about that 20:19:25 action-119? 20:19:25 action-119 -- Antoine Isaac to Remove the labels he proposed for removal -- due 2018-05-29 -- OPEN 20:19:25 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/119 20:19:29 antoine: I wanted another week on that 20:19:33 action-120? 20:19:33 action-120 -- Antoine Isaac to Add requirements to the europeana use case -- due 2018-05-29 -- OPEN 20:19:33 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/120 20:19:39 antoine: Continuing 20:19:45 ... but an important one 20:19:51 action-121? 20:19:52 action-121 -- Antoine Isaac to Call for more clarification on candidate uc 239 -- due 2018-05-30 -- OPEN 20:19:52 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/121 20:20:01 q+ to talk about ACTION-83 20:20:04 antoine: I think I've done this 20:20:28 close action-121 20:20:28 Closed action-121. 20:20:36 action-100? 20:20:36 action-100 -- Jaroslav Pullmann to And ucr editors to take this to dcat group -- due 2018-04-10 -- OPEN 20:20:36 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/100 20:20:50 Jaroslav_Pullmann: tbh I don't remember this... 20:20:59 ... If someone remembers... 20:21:15 Ixchel: It might be related to the comments we received? 20:21:27 ... from Oystein? 20:21:48 Jaroslav_Pullmann: Ah yes, I think we've done this. We responded and put his points into GitHub issues 20:21:56 close action-100 20:21:57 Closed action-100. 20:22:02 action-88? 20:22:02 action-88 -- Rob Atkinson to Investigate profile meeting minutes generation issue due 2018-03-14 -- due 2018-03-13 -- OPEN 20:22:02 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/88 20:22:17 roba: I raised that with the group. The minutes are being generated 20:22:35 ... It's pushing the minutes into the meetings page that's a problem 20:22:40 PWinstanley: We'll keep it open 20:22:44 action-85? 20:22:44 action-85 -- Andrea Perego to AndreaPerego to verify if changes to documentation of use of dct:license and dct:rights are needed -- due 2018-03-08 -- OPEN 20:22:44 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/85 20:22:47 action-86? 20:22:47 action-86 -- Andrea Perego to AndreaPerego to consider if dct:accessRights should be inlcuded in DCAT -- due 2018-03-08 -- OPEN 20:22:47 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/86 20:22:59 AndreaPerego: Both stuck 20:23:17 ... we have to trigger some discussion to move it forward 20:23:25 PWinstanley: We'll keep them in place then for now 20:23:52 ack LarsG 20:23:52 LarsG, you wanted to talk about ACTION-83 20:23:54 q? 20:23:57 action-83? 20:23:57 action-83 -- Dave Raggett to Set up respec template for "profile negotiation" deliverable - or do we simply clone the directory structure? -- due 2018-03-07 -- OPEN 20:23:57 https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/83 20:24:14 LarsG: I think we can close that one too as I think we have it covered. 20:24:17 close action-83 20:24:17 Closed action-83. 20:24:25 Topic: Use Cases and Requirements 20:24:47 PWinstanley: There were a number of things when we were dealing with the gathering of UCR that we didn't confirm and agree on 20:24:57 ... these were the ones that tended to cover conneg and profiles 20:25:09 ... Karen from Genoa has been pulling these together in a very organised way 20:25:15 https://docs.google.com/document/d/13hV2tJ6Kg2Hfe7e1BowY5QfCIweH9GxSCFQV1aWtOPg/edit# 20:25:34 PWinstanley: What we want to look at is agreement on these 20:26:06 ... Please take a look at that and in the top couple of pages... a bunch of Reqs in red. Profile reqs 12-24 20:26:25 ... We need agreement that these are the requiremnets that we need to work to. 20:26:37 ... But if we take them one at a time, we're likely to be here until the middle of the summer 20:26:45 q+ 20:26:49 ... So first proposal is to ask ... 20:27:14 ... You should be familiar with the territory. Are you happy with the idea that we cover all 12-24 in one vote. 20:27:49 PROPOSED: That we cover requirements 12-24 at https://docs.google.com/document/d/13hV2tJ6Kg2Hfe7e1BowY5QfCIweH9GxSCFQV1aWtOPg/edit#heading=h.5l26dadqk5v7 in one vote 20:27:55 Probably it is too much. 20:28:03 PWinstanley: The alternative, is to do it in blocks, or do it one by one 20:28:04 q+ 20:28:06 -1 to doing it all in one block 20:28:09 +1 for grouping 20:28:10 ack roba 20:28:15 ack roba 20:28:17 Use Case: Profiles of DCAT-AP and various implementation resources #238 20:28:19 +q 20:28:42 roba: The first thing is that there is another UC not reflected here. There's a lot of implicit assumptions that weren't captured enough 20:28:48 Use Case: Profiles of DCAT-AP and various implementation resources #238 20:28:52 ... So I teased out a new use case 20:29:03 roba: We renamed it to be explicit about what it is 20:29:04 q? 20:29:19 roba: Tio make sure that the DCAT-AP use cases was being captured 20:29:39 ack kcoyle 20:29:55 ack kcoyle 20:29:57 kcoyle: First in response to Rob we'd have to vote on the UC and then see about the reqs/ 20:30:14 ... Not sure what new features it adds 20:30:15 excatly - the UC may help resolve the issue - it does not add any new requirements however 20:30:34 kcoyle: The other thing we could ask if there are any requirements in that group that people objected to. 20:30:36 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:30:48 Jaroslav_Pullmann: This is a huge bunch og reqs that might be unrelated. 20:30:50 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:31:05 q+ 20:31:06 Jaroslav_Pullmann: Groupings of similar reqs would make sense 20:31:31 PWinstanley: There are links with IDs 20:31:59 Jaroslav_Pullmann: This was fantastic work by Karen, I;m trying to support the grouping. These back refs ... would such a statement of a use case motivate such a req and it's not always the case. 20:32:12 ... I think an update of the UC statement might be helpful. 20:32:19 ... But I'm in favour of grouping 20:32:28 q+ 20:32:32 ack k 20:32:35 ack kcoyle 20:32:47 q? 20:32:55 kcoyle: One of the things about having this in a Google Doc... there are things that GH doesn't do very well. 20:33:07 kcoyle: WE've got some comments, Lars provided alternate wording etc. 20:33:11 ack AndreaPerego 20:33:16 ... People should do that soon. 20:33:18 ack AndreaPerego 20:33:42 AndreaPerego: Another option for grouping is to identify reqs that will be a SHOULD and those that would be a MAY 20:33:53 ... we may not have an agreement yet, but it might be useful exercise. 20:34:04 ... leads to idea of core requirements, nice to haves etc. 20:34:25 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:34:30 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 20:34:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/29-dxwg-minutes.html phila 20:34:44 AndreaPerego: not all reqs might need to be fully supported 20:35:06 PWinstanley: There is a waterfall process We need to do things in sequence. The UCR needs to support the Rec on profiles 20:35:15 so lets look at the UC first 20:35:29 ... I was trying to see what scope there is for moving as quickly as possible without losing hte opportunity for appropriate consideration 20:35:46 ... we didn't get them all agreed when we were sorting out the ones that are the basis for DCAT 20:36:09 ... The challenge is that if we're looking for groupings, then it may take us less time than doing it one by one, but we'll still need a proposal for how to block them 20:36:18 q+ 20:36:24 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:36:25 ... It has to be done at the plenary meeting 20:36:44 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I was asked to support Karen which I will do on Thursday this week. 20:37:06 q+ 20:37:09 action: Jaroslav to propose initial grouping of the requirements 12-24 20:37:17 Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail with details about what happened. 20:37:30 PWinstanley: You're saying that sounds possible, AndreaPerego, but annette_g maybe not 20:38:02 AndreaPerego: You can think of a matrix, split into reqs that are SHOULD, those that are MUSTS etc. 20:38:19 ... The Gh mailing list isn't clear what are the core requirements 20:38:42 q? 20:39:11 ack roba 20:39:14 annette_g: I think it's too big a chunk is too much, but a logical grouping makes sense 20:39:19 ack roba 20:39:57 roba: I agree with the comment about the UCs not motivating all the reqs clearly, hence to proposed new UC 20:40:25 roba: I've attempted to capture what's missing which might be useful 20:40:45 PWinstanley: We also have some additional chunks of UC work {missed a bit] 20:40:56 q+ 20:41:04 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:41:16 Jaroslav_Pullmann: These aren't related to profiles 20:41:26 ... at least mine isn't 20:41:47 q+ 20:41:47 ... I need to put it back on the screen but it's not relevant in the discussion we had 20:41:56 q+ 20:42:03 PWinstanley: And what about the Flanders one and the one below that (modelling permissions) 20:42:46 Jaroslav_Pullmann: The UC from Stijn - I commented that there is already a related UC. We share an understanding of where DCAT is used. Is it a base or an interop/exchange standard 20:43:01 ... One of the important parts of the description... 20:43:08 q- 20:43:12 PWinstanley: Is this already dealt with? 20:43:43 Jaroslav_Pullmann: Yes, descriptions already handled elsewhere, but we could alter the UC to talk about DCAT as an exchange standard at interop level. 20:43:56 ... To enable interop by interchange of DCAT artifacts 20:44:01 q? 20:44:15 ack kcoyle 20:44:15 ... A slight rewording of the use case then it will make sense. Internal use, no, but as an interchange standard 20:44:39 kcoyle: I'm looking at that the DCAT-AP. GH issue 238 20:45:02 q+ 20:45:03 ... It refers specifically to DCAT-AP and profiles, that's really not in our charter. Is here a general profile issue? 20:45:09 PWinstanley: Yep 20:45:11 ack roba 20:45:25 kcoyle: I'm a bit reluctant fr us to add profile management at this point 20:46:02 ... I can see it as a topic within the profile guideline And from Makx's presentation, we cojuld come up with some issues in profile management, but I don't think it's related to programming languages and interop 20:46:14 PWinstanley: The charter is clear that we're generalists 20:46:26 roba: The use case doesn;t talk about management, it talks about the experience of DCAt-Ap 20:46:41 ... It's an example for the need for descriptions 20:46:54 q+ to restate roba's point about examples, and to make a suggestion 20:46:58 ... Most of hte UCs talk about ... in this specific case... this is no different in that regard 20:47:31 ... It doesn't provide any new reqs but it does provide a clearer traceability for some of the reqs we already have, eg the Europeana one 20:47:44 s/hte/the/ 20:48:04 q+ 20:48:05 ack AndreaPerego 20:48:05 AndreaPerego, you wanted to restate roba's point about examples, and to make a suggestion 20:48:13 roba: I don't think a mischaracterisation of its scope makes it irrelevant The issue... people aren't disagreeing about the use cases, more that we can't always trace back to the UC 20:48:25 q+ to tall about Rob's UC 20:48:53 AndreaPerego: Examples in the doc... I think it wold be important ... we give a sense of how things are done in different UCs. 20:48:54 q? 20:49:06 ... WE should probably include profiles that are not just about metadata 20:49:16 ... GML is an example, designed for use with profiles 20:49:25 s/WE/We/ 20:49:43 ack antoine 20:49:52 happy not toi include this - but not if we then revert to arguing about the lack of UC! 20:49:56 ack antoine 20:50:02 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-wg/2018May/0391.html 20:50:20 antoine: I wanted to talk briefly about Rob's use case. I see it's trying to capture some of the issues that I posted. It ewas a report of the varuous profiles of DCAT around Eu 20:50:29 ... I think Rob's use case was trying to go towards 20:50:47 ... I think it could help us 20:50:54 PWinstanley: Does it need a bit of editing? 20:51:11 antoine: Rob was welcoming the input of people involved in this effort to flesh out his UC, so yeas 20:51:14 ack phila 20:51:14 phila, you wanted to tall about Rob's UC 20:51:16 ack me 20:52:30 q? 20:52:51 phila: Supports Rob's use case if it clarifies the relationship with a key target market 20:52:59 Topic: Weekly Meetings 20:53:06 +1 from me 20:53:09 +1 20:53:27 PWinstanley: It seems to me, based on what we've just been talking about, we'll need weekly meetings for a while yet 20:53:43 +1 for weekly meetings 20:53:47 +1 20:53:49 +1 20:53:51 +1 20:53:52 PWinstanley: Are we all happy with the idea of weekly meetings for the foreseebale future (next 3-4 meetings) 20:53:54 + uggh 20:53:54 +1 20:54:00 +1 uggh 20:54:11 +1 20:54:13 PWinstanley: I think that's where we're at. 20:54:25 ... The next meeting therefore will be in a week's time 20:54:39 ... The actions we have are on Jaro to clump those UCs associated with the profiles 20:54:53 q+ 20:54:54 ... preferably by next week, if not the week after 20:55:08 PWinstanley: We can tease out the ones we're going to work on and get rid of others. 20:55:20 ... AndreaPerego was also suggesting a prioritisation 20:55:35 PWinstanley: Would you have time to help AndreaPerego? 20:55:39 AndreaPerego: I'll do my best 20:56:12 PWinstanley: So it's incumbent on everyone to follow the Google doc. Jaro will make some suggestions 20:56:30 ... It's important that we get this done so the profiles doc work can start. 20:56:34 q? 20:56:37 ... Any other suggestions? 20:56:39 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:56:42 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:57:11 Jaroslav_Pullmann: I'll start with a reqs grouping and see if they are motivated by the UCs, or as Karen said, put some comments on them where justification is missing 20:57:13 q+ 20:57:31 ack roba 20:57:36 ack roba 20:57:51 roba: The potential role of the additional clarifying UC will be included in that review? 20:57:54 q+ 20:57:59 ack kcoyle 20:58:05 PWinstanley: I think there's enough support for that to be brought to the table 20:58:25 kcoyle: I would offer that we should vote on it now 20:58:40 PROPOSED: Include Rob's Clarifying Use Case on DCAT-AP 20:58:48 +1 20:58:52 +1 20:58:52 +1 20:58:54 +1 20:58:55 +0 20:58:56 +1 20:58:56 +1 20:59:00 +1 20:59:00 +1 20:59:04 +1 20:59:09 +1 20:59:12 RESOLVED: Include Rob's Clarifying Use Case on DCAT-AP 20:59:14 q+ 20:59:21 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:59:23 This said it would be good if it was marked work in progress 20:59:25 ack Jaroslav_Pullmann 20:59:41 Jaroslav_Pullmann: Last week we had a discuion on the problem statement which seemed to be missing. 20:59:44 +1 20:59:54 ... Can you, Rib, please revise the problem statement and make sure it's clear 21:00:11 roba: I think the problem was the dissonance with the title which I've tried to resolve 21:00:22 PWinstanley: And there was Antoine's comment on some diting 21:00:27 It's probably the same issue as with the Europeana one. 21:00:30 s/Rib/Rob/ 21:00:45 s/one/case 21:00:47 Topic: reports from DCAT sub group 21:00:52 PWinstanley: Postponed to next time 21:01:31 ... Busy meeting. Please prepare your calendars so that you're freed up for the next few meetings. I think the next few will be quite meaty. 21:01:39 PWinstanley: Thanks everyone for attending 21:01:41 Thanks, bye bye! 21:01:43 [ADJOURNED] 21:01:45 bye! 21:01:47 Thanks, bye 21:01:51 present- 21:01:53 annette_g has left #dxwg 21:01:54 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 21:01:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/29-dxwg-minutes.html phila 21:03:08 Cheers AndreaPerego!