IRC log of dxwg on 2018-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:08:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dxwg

06:08:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-irc

06:08:16 [PWinstanley]

rrsagent, make logs public

06:08:34 [PWinstanley]

chair: PWinstanley & KCoyle

06:08:48 [PWinstanley]

rrsagent, create minutes v2

06:08:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html PWinstanley

06:12:33 [kcoyle]

kcoyle has joined #dxwg

06:12:39 [SimonCox]

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06:12:45 [SimonCox]

present+

06:12:54 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg

06:12:54 [PWinstanley]

present+

06:12:54 [antoine]

present+

06:12:55 [LarsG]

present+

06:12:55 [kcoyle]

present+

06:12:59 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

present+

06:13:01 [DaveBrowning]

DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg

06:13:03 [SimonCox]

scribenick: SimonCox

06:13:08 [DaveBrowning]

present+

06:13:25 [SimonCox]

meeting: DXWG f2f3

06:14:03 [SimonCox]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/F2f3#Wednesday.2C_May_9.2C_8-17_CEST_.28in_your_time_zone.29

06:14:23 [kcoyle]

scribenick: SimonCox

06:14:36 [SimonCox]

chair: PWinstanley

06:14:43 [riccardoAlbertoni]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15OfNXU9AJ-cZysc7uYP-Gks5dDa8n2B5IN6rWa3kRpo/edit#heading=h.70ebjavd7jrw

06:15:19 [PWinstanley]

q?

06:16:20 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: yesterday clarified issues re Profiles. Today - construct skeleton of Profile guidance document

06:16:25 [kcoyle]

https://www.w3.org/2018/05/08-dxwg-minutes

06:17:08 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: focused on validation and relationships between profiles

06:17:34 [SimonCox]

... all ok? Any overnight epiphanies?

06:17:41 [roba]

q+

06:17:45 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

q+

06:18:10 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: relations are awkward

06:18:12 [roba]

q-

06:18:18 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: does section need breaking up?

06:18:27 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: need to go back to UCs ...

06:18:27 [antoine]

q+

06:19:01 [PWinstanley]

q?

06:19:25 [PWinstanley]

ack Jaroslav_Pullmann

06:19:26 [SimonCox]

Action: kcoyle to review profiling use-cases

06:19:27 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-112 - Review profiling use-cases [on Karen Coyle - due 2018-05-16].

06:20:20 [DaveBrowning]

rrsagent, make logs public

06:20:41 [SimonCox]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: need to review scenarios for profiles, to correlate with UCs. Also check GitHub issues. Perhaps generate UCs from issues?

06:21:01 [Makx]

Makx has joined #dxwg

06:21:15 [Makx]

present+ Makx

06:21:37 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: wants to go the other way - re-extract reqs from UCs - some Reqs do not appear to be well grounded in UCs

06:22:06 [SimonCox]

... conceptually the Reqs do not reflect the UCs :-(

06:22:12 [DaveBrowning]

rrsagent, generate minutes v2

06:22:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html DaveBrowning

06:22:31 [SimonCox]

Action: Jaroslav_Pullmann to work with kcoyle on profile UCs and Requirements

06:22:36 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-113 - Work with kcoyle on profile ucs and requirements [on Jaroslav Pullmann - due 2018-05-16].

06:22:44 [antoine]

q+

06:23:15 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: We didn't pay much attention to content negotiation by profile

06:23:34 [roba]

DCAT-AP scenario drives most of the requirements - and there are not that many additional ones. So if folks are uncomfortable with complexity, the re-read the real world examples provided by Makx - if something missing provide example as evidence.

06:23:42 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg

06:23:51 [roba]

s/the re-read/then re-read/

06:23:54 [AndreaPerego]

present+ AndreaPerego

06:24:09 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

06:24:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

06:24:09 [antoine]

kcoyle, Jaroslav_Pullmann : I have one case about links between profile I could work with you if you want

06:24:29 [PWinstanley]

ack antoine

06:24:41 [PWinstanley]

q?

06:24:43 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: need to make sure nothing left on the editing floor

06:25:04 [roba]

* just mute conference room when someone else taling please

06:26:42 [SimonCox]

... kcoyle will give presentation on Dublin Core approach, to see if anything we can adopt from there

06:26:51 [roba]

q+

06:27:04 [SimonCox]

... then going forward we can ensure our approach is harmonised with that

06:27:05 [SimonCox]

q+

06:27:11 [PWinstanley]

ack roba

06:28:23 [SimonCox]

roba: looking at comments from yesterday - too much focus on expressivity of constraint language :-(

06:29:03 [SimonCox]

we shouldn't be inventing a constraint language. We need to adopt technologies that are available.

06:29:18 [antoine]

For the record the questions I asked was whether we should include elements about the content of profile specifciation (cardinality constraints etc) like Dublin Core work in the "profile content" sections.

06:29:32 [PWinstanley]

ack SimonCox

06:30:34 [SimonCox]

SimonCox: harmonization is good, but not if the DC approach is not fit for our purpose

06:30:45 [PWinstanley]

q?

06:31:00 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: agree - just avoid unnecessary divergence

06:31:06 [SimonCox]

q?

06:31:49 [kcoyle]

http://dublincore.org/documents/singapore-framework/

06:32:07 [AndreaPerego]

present+ tombaker

06:32:09 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

06:32:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

06:35:12 [kcoyle]

http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-dsp/

06:37:19 [kcoyle]

http://dublincore.org/documents/profile-guidelines/

06:38:04 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: describing DC profile approach

06:38:17 [SimonCox]

... SHACL/ShEX are too atomistic

06:38:38 [SimonCox]

... Singapore Framework documents too dense

06:38:58 [SimonCox]

s/Singapore/2007 Singapore/

06:39:24 [kcoyle]

https://github.com/kcoyle/RDF-AP

06:39:33 [SimonCox]

... 2009 draft http://dublincore.org/documents/profile-guidelines/ is clearer about how to develop profiles

06:40:19 [SimonCox]

... new draft 2018 https://github.com/kcoyle/RDF-AP also based on CSV-W

06:40:42 [SimonCox]

... everyone develops application profiles as tables

06:41:14 [SimonCox]

... goal is simple enough documents so that all interested parties can use them

06:41:55 [SimonCox]

... see schemaList.csv - could also link out to Shacl/ShEx for validation

06:42:34 [SimonCox]

... but spreadsheet should express AP, then can build data template as a tables

06:43:10 [SimonCox]

... Gregg Kellogg works on software for converting spreadsheets to web-friendly data

06:43:14 [SimonCox]

q+

06:43:42 [SimonCox]

ack SimonCox

06:44:21 [SimonCox]

automatically convert constraints-in-a-table into data-template-as-a-table

06:44:28 [SimonCox]

?

06:44:38 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: yes - though not working yet

06:45:17 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: discussion?

06:46:59 [roba]

seems to show that a diversity of implementing resources is a reality - challenge is classifying the role each resource may have..

06:47:11 [PWinstanley]

http://xlsform.org/ is a route to building forms that uses a spreadsheet approach

06:47:28 [SimonCox]

SimonCox: tabular representation of constraints is another useful prof:resource associated with a Profile

06:47:57 [SimonCox]

... with different role - e.g. 'data-template-rule'

06:48:46 [AndreaPerego]

meeting: DXWG F2F3 - Day 2

06:48:48 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

06:48:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

06:48:49 [SimonCox]

Data entry is important goal. Can also use SHACL to drive forms (NickCar student; built in to TopBraid)

06:51:38 [SimonCox]

discussion on how to move forward

06:51:47 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: need someone to take control ...

06:52:05 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: wants in-out list - see gdoc

06:52:54 [SimonCox]

riccardoAlbertoni: do not enforce/adopt one technology

06:53:14 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: shoudl we mention technologies?

06:53:38 [SimonCox]

roba: document must explain what profiles are, and how data conforms

06:54:19 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: what should we say about constraints in the guidance document?

06:54:59 [antoine]

q+

06:55:06 [SimonCox]

roba: how many documents: 1. guidance document ... but must refer to 2. profile description formalization

06:56:18 [SimonCox]

... 'guidance for DCAT profiles' does not need to describe profiles technology or constraints languages, they belong in a different document

06:57:07 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: how many documents ? not yet clear.

06:57:46 [SimonCox]

roba: two options - one complex document or two simple documents

06:58:35 [SimonCox]

... willing to write up profiledesc as separate standalone document, which then will make DCAT guidance easier, because it will provide means for describing more complex requirements

06:59:12 [SimonCox]

... Nick and roba have implementation plans ready (OGC, Oz) independent ot DCAT

06:59:23 [SimonCox]

s/ot/of/

06:59:45 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+q

07:02:31 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: guidance dcument should not define a vocabulary, its a document

07:04:54 [SimonCox]

roba: profiledesc will make writing profile-guidance easier

07:05:10 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: profiledesc could be the main deliverable?

07:05:36 [riccardoAlbertoni]

q-

07:06:23 [AndreaPerego]

q+

07:06:45 [SimonCox]

SimonCox: note that profiledesc document is generated by LODE from profiledesc RDF - it doesn't have a lot of text

07:06:59 [roba]

+1

07:07:12 [roba]

(to peter's summary)

07:07:34 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: will need to add lots of text

07:07:44 [roba]

note that the vocabulary is completely open to change to meet needs

07:07:58 [riccardoAlbertoni]

?q

07:08:05 [riccardoAlbertoni]

q?

07:08:10 [PWinstanley]

q?

07:08:15 [PWinstanley]

ack antoine

07:08:43 [SimonCox]

antoine: the proposal to work on profiledesc makes a lot of sense

07:09:01 [SimonCox]

... but must not forget content-negotiation requirement

07:09:44 [SimonCox]

... conneg is a separate deliverable

07:09:46 [roba]

yet to identify a requirement to access profile description during negotiation - but possibly inheritance may raise an need

07:10:05 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: must be corodinated with profile guidance/profiledesc

07:10:20 [SimonCox]

antoine: deliverables must cross-reference each other

07:10:52 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: delverable are independent must must be coordinated, there must be no inconsistency

07:11:07 [roba]

Happy for this to be the formalism part of a single deliverable, which describes how to use it and show examples of what specific constraint languages are used

07:11:10 [SimonCox]

s/delverable/deliverables/

07:11:37 [SimonCox]

q+

07:12:05 [SimonCox]

q+ to ask if profiledesc vocabulary is one chapter/clause in the guidance document?

07:12:37 [PWinstanley]

ack AndreaPerego

07:13:27 [roba]

q+

07:13:48 [LarsG]

q+ to say that the profile description should have the same content as profiledesc but doesn't have to implement it

07:13:58 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+q

07:13:58 [SimonCox]

AndreaPerego: need to be careful about rolling in too many things. there are other profiling formalisms. Users may be confused. How does this complement SHACL, ShEx etc?

07:14:13 [antoine]

Most profile languages like SHACL ShEx, DC's DSP seek to describe the content of profile (ie constraints). Our Vocabulary describe profiles. It gives the hook to bind everything together.

07:14:24 [SimonCox]

q-

07:14:29 [LarsG]

+1 to what antoine just said

07:14:30 [SimonCox]

+1 antoine

07:14:42 [kcoyle]

+1 to antoine

07:14:51 [PWinstanley]

ack roba

07:15:50 [riccardoAlbertoni]

q-

07:15:55 [SimonCox]

roba: there is no profile description language around (there are several constraint languages, mostly tech specific)

07:16:06 [antoine]

And the role of content negotiation should be to point users to constraints languages (SHACL, XML Schema), humaan-readable doc (HTML) or the 'hook' as represented in ProfildDesc (RDF)

07:16:26 [PWinstanley]

ack LarsG

07:16:26 [Zakim]

LarsG, you wanted to say that the profile description should have the same content as profiledesc but doesn't have to implement it

07:16:46 [PWinstanley]

s/ProfildDesc /ProfileDesc /

07:16:48 [SimonCox]

the hook also indicates role of different artefacts, which wasn't there before

07:17:04 [antoine]

SimonCox +1 and LarsG +1

07:17:12 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+1 LarsG

07:17:19 [roba]

yes - thats correct

07:17:20 [PWinstanley]

q?

07:17:23 [kcoyle]

q+

07:17:30 [SimonCox]

LarsG: profiledesc complements constraints expressions and guidance documents

07:17:32 [tombaker]

q+ to say that http://dublincore.org/documents/singapore-framework/ also had the goal of specifying the documentary components of a profile and how they relate

07:18:15 [PWinstanley]

ack kcoyle

07:18:36 [roba]

so @tombaker - can DC work be refactored to use a simple vocab with this scope?

07:19:13 [antoine]

My proposal would be to have the profile guidance as a Primer for ProfileDesc

07:19:21 [antoine]

and for Conneg

07:19:25 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: proposes that we use profiledesc as basis for guidance document

07:19:31 [roba]

+1 antoine

07:19:50 [SimonCox]

... need to plan AP Guidance doc using profiledesc as core resource

07:19:51 [antoine]

I think it's compatible with what kcoyle proposes

07:20:43 [LarsG]

antoine is that for profile-negotiation or for how to distribute information about a specific profile?

07:21:14 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: need to roadtest profiledesc

07:21:18 [antoine]

Suggested title: "Describing and publishing data profiles - a Primer" :-)

07:21:18 [AndreaPerego]

q+ to say it would be good to integrate also the draft made by antoine - https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dHkpwKwUwMgS1RqSCTPO3uOoRiY_qNk0z5bhXJlYi4Y/edit

07:21:24 [roba]

it still needs work of course - role description and can we handle all the versioning complexity Makx highlighted?

07:21:36 [antoine]

LarsG: both

07:21:39 [PWinstanley]

ack tombaker

07:21:39 [Zakim]

tombaker, you wanted to say that http://dublincore.org/documents/singapore-framework/ also had the goal of specifying the documentary components of a profile and how they relate

07:22:29 [SimonCox]

Description of profiledesc is here https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/profiledesc/profiledesc.html

07:23:01 [SimonCox]

examples here: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/tree/gh-pages/profiledesc/examples

07:23:44 [roba]

Can we get some love to test profiledesc against singaporeframework requirements

07:23:51 [SimonCox]

tombaker: Singapore Framework (3 page doc) is important well-used resource, perhaps needs updating, coordinating

07:26:05 [LarsG]

q?

07:26:16 [roba]

q+

07:26:43 [LarsG]

q+ to propose that we combine the documentation part of the Singapore Framework with the structure of profileDesc

07:28:15 [antoine]

q+ to suggest we really need to set up a profile group to coordinate between the 3 deliverables

07:28:31 [PWinstanley]

ack AndreaPerego

07:28:31 [Zakim]

AndreaPerego, you wanted to say it would be good to integrate also the draft made by antoine - https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1dHkpwKwUwMgS1RqSCTPO3uOoRiY_qNk0z5bhXJlYi4Y/edit

07:28:47 [PWinstanley]

ack roba

07:28:51 [SimonCox]

SimonCox: urges people to review profiledesc resources mentioned above

07:29:25 [roba]

* was trying to work out f just me...

07:30:23 [SimonCox]

roba: profiledesc meets operational needs known to the authors - several tests have been done

07:30:44 [SimonCox]

... shoudl be crossed-checked against SF (Singapore Framework)

07:31:07 [SimonCox]

... profiledesc is currently v small and could be evolved and aligned quite easily

07:31:10 [PWinstanley]

ack LarsG

07:31:10 [Zakim]

LarsG, you wanted to propose that we combine the documentation part of the Singapore Framework with the structure of profileDesc

07:31:16 [kcoyle]

Do we need more use cases to cover profiledesc?

07:31:22 [SimonCox]

LarsG: +1 to roba

07:31:26 [PWinstanley]

ack antoine

07:31:26 [Zakim]

antoine, you wanted to suggest we really need to set up a profile group to coordinate between the 3 deliverables

07:31:47 [SimonCox]

antoine: we agree on strategy, need to organize the work.

07:32:13 [kcoyle]

PROPOSED: Explore placing ProfileDesc as basis for Guidance deliverable

07:32:25 [LarsG]

+1

07:32:29 [kcoyle]

+1

07:32:29 [PWinstanley]

+1

07:32:30 [SimonCox]

+1

07:32:31 [Makx]

+1

07:32:32 [roba]

+1

07:32:32 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+1

07:32:33 [DaveBrowning]

+1

07:32:33 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

+1

07:32:57 [antoine]

+1 (with hesitation: I think it would be not *the* basis)

07:33:15 [tombaker]

+1

07:33:19 [SimonCox]

resolved: we will explore placing ProfileDesc as a basis for Guidance deliverable

07:33:35 [kcoyle]

RESOLVED: Explore placing ProfileDesc as basis for Guidance deliverable

07:33:49 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

07:33:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

07:34:00 [antoine]

4 months should be ok

07:34:06 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: logistics - timing?

07:34:11 [antoine]

looking at the maturity for the rest

07:34:43 [SimonCox]

... well before TPAC, Lyon October 25/6

07:34:56 [SimonCox]

... so needs to be well underway by August

07:35:09 [antoine]

yes it's possible

07:35:28 [SimonCox]

... so as not to clash with lazy northern summer

07:35:39 [AndreaPerego]

q+

07:35:46 [SimonCox]

... (excepting kcoyle of course)

07:36:13 [antoine]

q+

07:36:31 [AndreaPerego]

q-

07:36:57 [SimonCox]

... FPWD needs to show sense of direction. RobA, kcoyle Nick all champing at the bit

07:37:07 [SimonCox]

... probably antoine too

07:37:38 [PWinstanley]

ack antoine

07:38:03 [SimonCox]

... (we are talking about potential editors here)

07:38:24 [SimonCox]

antoine: will ensure that conneg will be included

07:38:37 [SimonCox]

LarsG: what about previously nominated editors?

07:39:05 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: roba has been v active, but not on profile/index.html

07:39:35 [antoine]

I can help co-editing stuff especially taking care of interrelationships and the wording that goes with it.

07:39:39 [roba]

once scope is clear and contributions start then editing can start :-) Ready to go..

07:40:30 [SimonCox]

Editors: kcoyle roba antoine (for now)

07:41:18 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

07:41:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

07:41:26 [SimonCox]

coffee calls

07:41:31 [antoine]

I'm expecting that in the end we could have more editors, as I expect we'll pick contributions from Lars, Ruben, Nick about their 'products'

07:41:43 [SimonCox]

+1 antoine

07:41:57 [antoine]

and probably SimonCox too ;-)

07:42:35 [PWinstanley]

q?

07:42:58 [SimonCox]

DaveBrowning: is this still a 'guidance' document

07:43:16 [SimonCox]

kcoyle: description is vague, can be bent to fit

07:43:32 [SimonCox]

... phila encouraged us to take it in the direction required

07:43:47 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: establish a position!

07:44:44 [SimonCox]

DaveBrowning: balance guidance vs. authoritative slant

07:45:01 [SimonCox]

... we (Reuters) struggle with the balance

07:45:12 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: DaveBrowning should be strong reviewer

07:45:38 [antoine]

q+

07:45:47 [SimonCox]

LarsG: does profiledesc replace ruben/lars/roba document?

07:46:08 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: need to verify that profiledesc-based work is sound

07:46:20 [roba]

aiming for rec track - i need to implement at OGC Linked Data resources in next few months :-)

07:46:20 [antoine]

+1 to what PWinstanley said. Let's start with doing something then we see the formal status

07:46:27 [SimonCox]

... need to bring forward milestones to verify quality

07:46:40 [antoine]

which probably means that we're aiming at Note first...

07:46:52 [antoine]

q-

07:47:07 [roba]

let it emerge - buts its a very tiny little vocab ..

07:47:15 [SimonCox]

s/coffee calls//

07:47:49 [roba]

* how long?

07:48:02 [kcoyle]

20 minutes or so?

07:48:07 [roba]

* ok

07:48:19 [kcoyle]

we'll try to get back top of the hour

07:48:28 [AndreaPerego]

s/20 minutes or so?//

07:48:40 [AndreaPerego]

scribenick: AndreaPerego

07:48:49 [AndreaPerego]

[coffee break]

07:48:52 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

07:48:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

08:04:59 [AndreaPerego]

topic: Project plan for the profile guidance doc

08:05:35 [kcoyle]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15OfNXU9AJ-cZysc7uYP-Gks5dDa8n2B5IN6rWa3kRpo/edit#

08:05:41 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: We need to decide all the bits - location of the doc and all the ingredients

08:06:15 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Starting with the pre-requisites

08:07:05 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: [editing the google doc]

08:08:47 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We need a project plan so we can determine what we can do.

08:09:09 [AndreaPerego]

... Let's call it for the moment "guidance doc" but it may be called otherwise.

08:15:05 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Given the idea of creating the doc around the profile desc voc, we need to follow the W3C process - which includes UCs + Reqs

08:15:37 [AndreaPerego]

... Jaroslav_Pullmann and I will re-derive reqs from UCs, and compare them with the profile desc, and see if anything is missing (new UCs).

08:16:09 [AndreaPerego]

... So we probably need to get UCs from Rob and Nick.

08:16:24 [antoine]

we need to set the github space

08:16:27 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We need also to form the group + chairs.

08:16:47 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: We also need a clear indication of the working space.

08:16:58 [antoine]

I can create github 'milestones' for the 3 deliverables.

08:17:08 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: So we need to decide whether or not to re-use the original space for the profile guidance doc.

08:17:40 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: We need also to start our engagement with stakeholders - the wider community.

08:18:20 [AndreaPerego]

... We should avoid what happened so far - very low engagement and feedback.

08:18:32 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We also need to set the milestones.

08:18:41 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: And a review process.

08:19:06 [AndreaPerego]

... For efficiency, this needs to be coordinated.

08:19:47 [AndreaPerego]

... Ensure quick feedback (couple of days).

08:20:00 [antoine]

q+

08:20:05 [antoine]

q-

08:20:55 [AndreaPerego]

... Note also that the stakeholders may be different from the ones of DCAT - scope of the profile document is broader than DCAT.

08:21:17 [antoine]

q+

08:21:27 [AndreaPerego]

ack antoine

08:22:19 [AndreaPerego]

antoine: There was a discussion on the moderation of the comment list - so messages are not passing through directly.

08:22:45 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We need DaveRaggett to dig deeply into it.

08:23:38 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: FPWD around early August.

08:24:17 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Looking at how the profile desc relates to conneg is another point.

08:24:32 [roba]

q+

08:24:50 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Who's going to do that and when?

08:25:20 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: I can do that. June/July may be feasible to me.

08:25:39 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Should this be separate from the group?

08:26:04 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: I can join the group, but I'll be away for 2 months.

08:26:23 [AndreaPerego]

ack roba

08:27:19 [AndreaPerego]

roba: One of the things that needs to be checked is whether conneg requires anything on the side of profile desc.

08:28:09 [roba]

* +1

08:28:20 [roba]

+1

08:28:24 [antoine]

q+

08:28:37 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: May be worth you roba do the coordination with the conneg group.

08:28:46 [AndreaPerego]

roba: [agrees]

08:28:56 [AndreaPerego]

ack antoine

08:29:20 [AndreaPerego]

antoine: I wonder whether we should merge the groups...

08:29:52 [roba]

seem to be quite different activities to me ..

08:29:59 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: I feel they are 2 different activities, although dependent to each other, so merging them could be an option.

08:30:12 [AndreaPerego]

antoine: We can discuss this in a later stage.

08:30:37 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Anything else we should add to the project plan?

08:31:37 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: We need a definitive version of profile desc and comparison with existing alternative approaches.

08:32:15 [antoine]

How does this github milestone look? https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/milestone/9

08:32:25 [AndreaPerego]

... This should go in the pre-requisites. It's about a definitive version of the vocs we are going to refer to.

08:33:31 [AndreaPerego]

roba: We do need some feedback for consolidating it.

08:33:59 [antoine]

I've just created it

08:34:34 [antoine]

was there another one on Profile Desc?

08:34:46 [SimonCox]

also https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/2

08:35:10 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Thanks for creating that milestone, antoine.

08:36:24 [antoine]

SimonCox a kanban board looks great indeed! We'll have to see what is best (a kanban for all profile-related issues could be lot)

08:36:42 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: [noting he posted some questions on profile desc that were not answered]

08:37:02 [roba]

projects should help - i tried to respond to all issues I saw related - but may have missed some :-(

08:37:04 [roba]

199?

08:37:52 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: About the doc outline, I will check other W3C docs.

08:37:54 [roba]

ahh - yes thats a nick use case - will chase him for a response

08:37:56 [riccardoAlbertoni]

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08:38:08 [riccardoAlbertoni]

present+

08:38:38 [AndreaPerego]

... like definition of terms, what the document will cover...

08:39:03 [roba]

q+

08:39:12 [AndreaPerego]

riccardoAlbertoni: Maybe an introduction about the conceptual model behind it?

08:39:28 [antoine]

+1

08:39:36 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Can we use DCAT and DCAT-AP as examples.

08:40:08 [PWinstanley]

https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/solution/core-public-service-vocabulary-application-profile

08:40:08 [roba]

we already use DCAT=AP as an example - but would be great to have Makx et al complete and clean these examples.

08:40:12 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: Also the ISA Core Public Service vocabulary AP can be an option.

08:40:40 [AndreaPerego]

DaveBrowning: ODRL is another one.

08:41:35 [AndreaPerego]

... They provide a meta-model, the provide support for extensions, ...

08:41:57 [roba]

using prov for DCAT-AP versioning and profile activities is great - maybe profiles are in fact sub types of prov:Entity

08:42:13 [AndreaPerego]

SimonCox: [explaining the use of PROV in a similar way for describing projects]

08:42:19 [AndreaPerego]

ack roba

08:44:30 [AndreaPerego]

roba: What we need in the examples is to describe the roles, and decide whether they should be skos:Concept's / skos:ConceptScheme's or subclasses.

08:44:46 [antoine]

I'd be happy to work on SKOS :-)

08:44:53 [AndreaPerego]

q+

08:45:29 [Makx]

Not quite sure what you're asking me to do

08:45:49 [roba]

currently separate artefact - but aligning with prov may be a good idea?

08:46:45 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego: Maybe also the PROV approach can be an example of building profiles - PROV is very generic, and they tell people that to do some more specific things you can create individuals / subclasses.

08:46:48 [Makx]

@roba maybe you can explain a bit what you would expect in e-mail?

08:46:48 [roba]

@Makx - look at DCAT-AP examples - create a separate file and try to describe all the DCAT-AP metadata you feel is necessaru - and revert back to group with questions as required.

08:46:49 [AndreaPerego]

q?

08:47:02 [AndreaPerego]

ack AndreaPerego

08:47:28 [Makx]

@roba where are the DCAT-AP examples?

08:47:38 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We need also clarify the notions of profile / application profiles / metadata application profiles

08:47:52 [AndreaPerego]

riccardoAlbertoni: The conceptual model can be useful to address this.

08:48:01 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Do we have a conceptual model?

08:48:13 [roba]

@antoine - do you see class/concept duality (concepts that may have further semantics modelled as classes?)

08:48:46 [AndreaPerego]

riccardoAlbertoni: The work done in the Singapore framework, the profile desc and antoine's diagram, put together can be the basis for that model.

08:49:11 [roba]

+1 - its just a subset of the singapore framework model

08:49:19 [antoine]

@roba - it is doable but if there's a way to avoid it it's maybe better (and not only for OWL2-DL concerns)

08:49:33 [antoine]

+1 riccardoAlbertoni

08:49:54 [AndreaPerego]

... There's also an example from DQV: generic classes and examples on how to use them by creating individuals / subclasses.

08:50:35 [roba]

@antoine - hard-typing vs soft-typing is a pattern that exists in the real world

08:50:43 [kcoyle]

q?

08:50:50 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Should we also talk about how people define profiles? From documents to code to validation

08:51:43 [AndreaPerego]

all: [general agreement]

08:53:01 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: It may be worth to talk also about how they support communities, which are their functions (implementing consensus, data sharing)

08:54:25 [AndreaPerego]

... Looking at the DCAT-AP example, they provide a collaborative framework ending up in domain-specific and/or country-specific extensions.

08:55:21 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: It seems that we can come up with quite a substantial document.

08:56:40 [roba]

* internet issues

08:56:58 [AndreaPerego]

... But now it looks difficult to see where profile desc fits in.

08:58:06 [antoine]

+1 for what PWinstanley it's a harness/hub

09:00:48 [AndreaPerego]

all: [discussion on notion of profile and role of profile desc]

09:01:14 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: The starting point is to say what a profile is.

09:01:48 [kcoyle]

q?

09:01:52 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We want to help people build profiles in their environment.

09:01:55 [roba_]

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09:02:53 [roba_]

guidance is that you should describe how your profile relates to other standards and what the artefacts do.. using profiledesc if you are in an RDF context

09:03:56 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

09:03:56 [RRSAgent]

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09:04:24 [antoine]

q+

09:04:50 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We are not going deeply on how to do things

09:05:17 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: Agreed, this is actually not possible - there are different ways of doing that, each with their requirements.

09:05:45 [AndreaPerego]

... We need to have the minimal set of characteristics for making something an application profile.

09:06:32 [AndreaPerego]

SimonCox: The guidance should say: if you want to do that, you need to have, e.g., an artifact to describe a specific roles, etc.

09:06:33 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+1 to SimonCox

09:06:43 [roba_]

+1

09:07:10 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

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09:07:16 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

present+

09:07:45 [roba_]

langauges are just standards - and likely to be profiles of standards :-)

09:08:00 [roba_]

profiledesc uses dct:conformsTo to point to these

09:08:35 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego: I wonder whether it would be useful to have a matrix describing the available format tools, and what you can do with that (contraints definition, validation, etc.).

09:08:59 [AndreaPerego]

s/format tools/formal tools/

09:09:05 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

09:09:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

09:09:35 [riccardoAlbertoni]

q?

09:10:21 [AndreaPerego]

antoine: [missed that]

09:10:28 [kcoyle]

ack antoine

09:11:00 [roba_]

* we are also hearing it all broken up :-(

09:11:18 [antoine]

What I said: We could do extensive examples as Riccardo and I have done for DQV: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dqv/

09:11:31 [antoine]

to illustrate the various functions of the profile desc language

09:11:52 [riccardoAlbertoni]

+1 to antoine

09:12:31 [antoine]

I think the guidance document should work like a Primer to describing and publishing profiles - with Profile Desc as a tool to start doing this

09:12:50 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Moving to the profile desc section

09:14:22 [AndreaPerego]

... Not sure how this should be presented in the doc.

09:14:57 [AndreaPerego]

SimonCox: Could be a specific chapter and/or used to provide the foundation for what said in the guidance doc

09:15:36 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: I was thinking on how ontologies are presented in W3C docs.

09:15:56 [AndreaPerego]

... This is probably what we need it here.

09:16:07 [AndreaPerego]

... This would make it more discoverable.

09:16:22 [AndreaPerego]

... The actual formal definition will be in another place.

09:16:49 [AndreaPerego]

... But the guidance doc will provide the documentation for it.

09:17:11 [AndreaPerego]

... The question is what happens if we update the ontology.

09:17:43 [AndreaPerego]

q+

09:17:58 [antoine]

q+ to write my opinion about it ;-)

09:18:05 [AndreaPerego]

... I'm thinking of the future beyond the DXWG work.

09:18:14 [kcoyle]

ack AndreaPerego

09:21:07 [antoine]

In addition to what Andrea said: whatever option we chose, we would probably have to update the guidance doc if we update the Profile Desc ontology, because the guidance doc would include examples with the Profile Desc ontology

09:21:12 [kcoyle]

ack antoine

09:21:12 [Zakim]

antoine, you wanted to write my opinion about it ;-)

09:22:33 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego: [mentioning the POWDER / POWDER-S example - https://www.w3.org/2007/05/powder-s#describedby ]

09:23:05 [antoine]

https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dqv/ is a note

09:23:08 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: The guidance doc loos notish - it could be a note and not go to rec track.

09:23:29 [roba_]

lets just iterate on profiledesc and decide if it works and how much of dcat it helps with - assume aiming at rec track and downgrade to note if unresolved issues ?

09:23:42 [AndreaPerego]

s/loos notish/looks notish/

09:24:49 [antoine]

q+ to flag another versioning concern

09:25:06 [AndreaPerego]

SimonCox: The guidance doc may be a REC (we may be able to point to existing implementations) - not sure about profile desc

09:25:51 [roba_]

UCR will need many vocabularies to implement - profiledesc plugs a gap...

09:26:07 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: The point is whether we can have RECs not listed in the charter

09:27:27 [AndreaPerego]

ack antoine

09:27:27 [Zakim]

antoine, you wanted to flag another versioning concern

09:27:30 [antoine]

if a document (the guidance) has to be updated everytime the ontology (profile desc) is updated then it should probably have the same status

09:27:56 [roba_]

q+

09:28:05 [AndreaPerego]

ack roba_

09:29:46 [antoine]

roba_ -1 actually the profile guidance will tell a more complete story than the profile desc

09:30:08 [PWinstanley]

s/loos /looks /

09:30:12 [roba_]

profile guidance will provide overview and use examples

09:30:26 [antoine]

roba_: +1 on the fact that the guidance will indeed provide overview and examples

09:30:53 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: We probably we need advise from W3C

09:30:56 [roba_]

its a note - the ontology is a separate artefact - aim for rec track if it is small and stable and useful and implemented .. fall back to note if not realistic

09:31:31 [AndreaPerego]

s/we need /need /

09:31:56 [antoine]

I'm afraid the advice from W3C will be a bit like 'do what you can and what you think is appropriate'. There are many patterns around...

09:32:12 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: [reading the charter]

09:32:35 [AndreaPerego]

... The additional vocs mentioned in the charter are not under REC track.

09:32:46 [danbri]

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09:32:52 [antoine]

q+ about dependancies

09:33:15 [DaveBrowning]

q?

09:33:27 [antoine]

if the profile depends on the profile desc and is on rec track

09:33:34 [antoine]

then it can't depend on a note I think

09:33:46 [antoine]

so the profile desc would fit as rec track

09:34:00 [antoine]

of course it would be different if the guidance goes as note.

09:34:05 [AndreaPerego]

q?

09:34:29 [kcoyle]

ack antoine

09:34:44 [LarsG]

q+ to say that SDW BP was downgraded

09:34:49 [antoine]

the guidance is on rec track now but we could decide to move it to note if we think our stuff is not mature enough.

09:34:53 [AndreaPerego]

ack

09:34:53 [antoine]

ack about

09:34:55 [AndreaPerego]

ack

09:34:56 [AndreaPerego]

ack

09:35:01 [antoine]

ack dependancies

09:35:07 [AndreaPerego]

ack Zakim

09:35:10 [AndreaPerego]

ack LarsG

09:35:10 [Zakim]

LarsG, you wanted to say that SDW BP was downgraded

09:35:14 [kcoyle]

ack LarsG

09:35:27 [antoine]

LarsG +1

09:35:49 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: Why not downgrading to note the guidance doc? This was done for the Spatial Data on the Web BPs?

09:36:14 [AndreaPerego]

kcoyle: Yes, that could be an option

09:36:35 [AndreaPerego]

s/BPs?/BPs/

09:36:55 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

09:36:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

09:37:54 [AndreaPerego]

topic: Conneg

09:38:09 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: [presenting the RFC proposal]

09:38:56 [AndreaPerego]

... It is basically about an HTTP header with identifier for the profile, similar to the media type approach

09:40:10 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego: What about inheritance relationships between profiles?

09:41:45 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: This would require a hierarchy of profiles. This is not currently included in the proposal.

09:42:57 [roba_]

extent?

09:43:09 [AndreaPerego]

all: [discussion on profile inheritance / hierarchies]

09:43:15 [roba_]

q+

09:44:52 [roba_]

q-

09:45:42 [AndreaPerego]

all: [discussion on HTTP headers, HTTP implementation requirements for profiles]

09:45:56 [roba_]

negotiation should _not_ require reading profiledesc (or anything else IMHO)

09:46:38 [AndreaPerego]

DaveBrowning: We need to provide fallback mechanisms not requiring changes on the side of the server. Are we going that way?

09:46:47 [roba_]

so it comes down to server resolves hierarchy or client resolves it and explicitly asks for everything ...

09:47:21 [kcoyle]

rrsagent, generate minutes v2

09:47:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle

09:47:43 [roba_]

client cant know what compliant sub-profiles a server offers

09:48:49 [roba_]

unless we define a HEAD behaviour that requires delivery of the hierarchy tree of specific profiles offered by server

09:51:14 [AndreaPerego]

LarsG: If the server returns at list the list of profiles, then it is your job to find the one fitting you

09:51:37 [roba_]

"lookup" is problematic - why not list the compliance with more general profiles in a HEAD response?

09:54:45 [roba_]

audio is too hard to follow - i will check email if there is something my input required - otherwise really happy this discovery question is explored and happy with anything you think is implementable - profiledesc only needs to be semantically consistent - not actually used in the process IMHO

09:58:16 [AndreaPerego]

all: [discussion on different options, and pros and cons for supporting fallback mechanisms for profile conneg]

09:58:30 [roba_]

* my lunch might be longer - great stuff all.

10:00:13 [AndreaPerego]

PWinstanley: One of the things to make sure is to fix the problem with the moderation filter on the comments list.

10:00:16 [roba_]

* use profeiledesc-working branch...

10:01:08 [PWinstanley]

progress is being made on Antoine's earlier comment about difficulties with the comment list and DSR and he are resolving

10:05:09 [AndreaPerego]

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10:05:36 [kcoyle]

https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/blob/gh-pages/profiles/index.html

10:06:09 [kcoyle]

https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/profiles/

10:08:47 [AndreaPerego]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: I have some questions for the afternoon about how to proceed with UCR and other things.

10:09:19 [AndreaPerego]

... This includes proposals about extending the scope of DCAT

10:09:42 [AndreaPerego]

[lunch]

10:09:51 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

10:09:51 [RRSAgent]

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11:02:03 [kcoyle]

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11:06:51 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

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11:08:04 [riccardoAlbertoni]

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11:11:17 [PWinstanley]

scribe: PWinstanley

11:11:19 [AndreaPerego]

scribenick: PWinstanley

11:12:05 [PWinstanley]

Topic: DCAT

11:12:10 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

URL to document/project: http://www.internationaldataspaces.org/en/ressource-hub/publications-ids/

11:12:38 [riccardoalbertoni_]

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11:13:19 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: the above link is the context. INternational dataspaces is a partnership between companies and academe - the project has created a reference architecture model

11:14:37 [PWinstanley]

... there is an ontology describing digital resources, esp datasets and data apps. The IDSA reference architecture has a layered approach

11:16:41 [PWinstanley]

... The IDS project has varied forms of documentation of the model, the ontology etc. There are also associated resources to assist developers such as a Java model and other resource models developed out of the ontology classes

11:17:49 [PWinstanley]

... Representations (we previously only referred to this in the context of ODRL) are described as UML. There are also faceted views of the (complicated) domain

11:18:35 [PWinstanley]

... The facets package/encapsulate facts about domain elements. Facets are goverened by regulations

11:18:52 [PWinstanley]

... There are internal processes of maintenance

11:20:29 [PWinstanley]

... The project looks at Dataset or Distribution, but it views this from the perspective of function or concern

11:20:47 [PWinstanley]

... views are related to layers

11:21:43 [PWinstanley]

... The ultimate goal is products based on services

11:22:46 [PWinstanley]

... There is scope for re-use of descriptions

11:23:44 [PWinstanley]

... descriptions cover the range of artefacts from abstract to concrete ("Kind", > "Representation" > "Artifact")

11:24:32 [PWinstanley]

... I think that the 'distribution' aspect of DCAT is intermingling concerns and the IDS approach would allow these to be untangled

11:25:18 [PWinstanley]

... My invitation is not only that we look at the reference architecture and see what might be reused

11:25:59 [PWinstanley]

... We could import the abstract concept of "Kind" into our DCAT work

11:26:26 [PWinstanley]

("import" = be inspired by)

11:28:04 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: Alejandra's work on bioCaddy has similar

11:29:02 [PWinstanley]

... containment hierarchy is one of the most important design aspects of this IDS model

11:29:36 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: looking for a diagram in DCAT that we can contrast to this - e.g. the one above 5.1.

11:29:58 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I was going to show one

11:30:05 [SimonCox]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-service-simon/dcat/#vocabulary-overview

11:30:22 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: I'm bringing in the idea of 'concern-based' thinking

11:31:26 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: are there parallels with what Jaroslav_Pullmann showed?

11:32:06 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: in the past attempts were made to shoehorn into distribution, but we recently accepted that it made sense to have a separate class for services

11:32:21 [PWinstanley]

... this is a straw man, but well worked out.

11:32:38 [PWinstanley]

... There were some suggestions that distributions contained services

11:32:58 [PWinstanley]

... but Andrea showed how this can work

11:35:54 [AndreaPerego]

q+

11:36:24 [danbri]

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11:36:46 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: reinterpret Distribution and make them a sort of Service

11:36:53 [danbri]

is the idea that 'distribution' tells us about a practical/concrete way of getting some specific representation(s) of a dataset?

11:37:15 [PWinstanley]

DaveBrowning: ths is similar to the was we think wbout things

11:37:26 [danbri]

(could be an HTTP download service, with or without content negotiation; or a Web service with query parameters etc.)

11:37:38 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: if we have 2 copies that are slightly different we need to repeat that distribution

11:38:51 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: I'm not sure if this is a common case - existing implementations the key question is where can I get the data?

11:39:32 [PWinstanley]

... I was trying to work out where the download URL would be in your model?

11:40:11 [PWinstanley]

danbri: simply repeat the property - could be a blank node

11:40:43 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: distribution is a reification between the data set and the file you're getting

11:41:03 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: the shape we have now is backward compatible

11:41:06 [kcoyle]

q?

11:41:55 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: the suggestion is to separate the concern of communication (accessURL and downloadURL) out.

11:42:07 [kcoyle]

ack AndreaPerego

11:43:08 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: in DCAT-AP we link a pointer to a service in a specific way and a more abstract way. We need to know about a service otherwise the agent doesn't know what to do with it

11:43:38 [Makx]

s/in DCAT-AP/in GeoDCAT-AP/

11:44:07 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: there is a plurality of protocols for describing APIs (Swagger, OpenAPI) etc

11:44:47 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: there is no specifcation ruling them all -and we don't need that. depending on the type of service we change the way that we point to it

11:45:26 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: this would be a type of action for reading data and it would take parameters

11:46:00 [AndreaPerego]

q?

11:46:47 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: in spatial data there is the notion of series (hierarchical) where the links to the subsets are not described

11:47:25 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: we can use the type 'Kind' to handle this, by defining abstract access interfaces

11:47:56 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: it is important not to break what is being used already

11:48:18 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: agreed. we are minimalistic. Key message is separate out concerns

11:48:43 [PWinstanley]

... we will have >=2 implementations

11:49:26 [kcoyle]

q?

11:50:22 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: there are a couple of things - the original DCAT backbone is there. We've introduced the superclass Dataset but there is scope for other subclasses. There are 3 specialisations of service: datadistributionservice, datatransformationservice and discoveryservice

11:50:48 [PWinstanley]

properties that used to be seen on Dataset are now in CataloguedItem

11:51:43 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: there is the need to preserve the backbone

11:52:32 [PWinstanley]

danbri: I like 'backbone'. but there is a spread of scope

11:52:54 [PWinstanley]

... perhaps there is a need to narrow this

11:53:20 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I was trying to accommodate the use of hasPart

11:54:21 [PWinstanley]

... but rdfs:member also has merit

11:54:39 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: the use cases are coming from other communities

11:55:13 [PWinstanley]

danbri: do library catalogues fall into scope?

11:55:41 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: in the geospatial domain it covers services

11:56:23 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I know of examples including samples of rock. There are descriptions, which is different to a registry

11:56:28 [Makx]

q+

11:56:44 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: this isn't how library catalogues are done

11:57:19 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: this has been most strongly informed by geospatial and cataloging rock samples

11:58:04 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: the landing point is a metadata description of a thing. up to know it has always been an information resource

11:58:26 [Makx]

q-

11:58:40 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: maybe a description of rocks is a data source

11:59:25 [Makx]

q+

11:59:27 [PWinstanley]

... I don't think we'll stumble too much. In a catalogue people only look at instances.

12:00:10 [Makx]

q-

12:00:57 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: I'm still stuck on the rocks example. what is rights about - rock or catalogue record?

12:01:57 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: issue is that these are in dcat:Distribution. ... but I'm showing stubs - there are no pointers here to rocks, just to metadata

12:02:34 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: if this was first developed with the idea of distributing only digital information then we need to think about where the 'real' things go

12:04:22 [PWinstanley]

Dan: where is service in this?

12:04:40 [Makx]

No I wanted to say something but Simon already said what I wanted to say

12:04:56 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: yes, in schema.org services are varied. The prototype here is webservice.

12:05:37 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: you're addressing something becoming increasingly required, esp public services. I don't see why we can 't use DCAT for this too

12:06:46 [PWinstanley]

Dan: if we have library services, I can go and ask the desk or use the online catalogue

12:07:02 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: anaswering the phone is a different kind of service

12:08:03 [PWinstanley]

Dan: there is such a wide scope

12:08:13 [Makx]

q+

12:08:28 [PWinstanley]

ack Makx

12:08:38 [Makx]

q+ please

12:08:44 [Makx]

q+

12:08:58 [kcoyle]

ack Makx

12:09:08 [danbri]

danbri has joined #dxwg

12:09:29 [PWinstanley]

Makx: dan's point - we need to realise that we're talking about DCAT so retain focus.

12:09:52 [PWinstanley]

... catalogueItem could be a book, but we're not dealing with that

12:10:16 [PWinstanley]

LarsG: otoh, what digital thing cannot be described as data?

12:10:21 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: a service.

12:10:40 [PWinstanley]

... so should that be inside DCAT or elsewhere?

12:10:51 [danbri]

re scope, I was hoping we'd see things like "here is a pattern for describing time series dataset publications" from this effort; but that could be that I got wrong impression about goals

12:11:03 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: this requires different profiles of DCAT

12:11:55 [Makx]

I agree with Dan. These are questions that people have in practice

12:12:47 [PWinstanley]

danbri: I'm concerned that we are good around datasets but less in other areas. also, what are the communities wanting?

12:13:16 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: for the communities, not having a route to model services will prevent the publication of these data

12:13:45 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: is there a way to make this more modular?

12:14:17 [PWinstanley]

... like danbri I'm nervous about bringing this into DCAT

12:14:52 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I've added this to the branch

12:16:08 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: dct:hasPart is used for many other things - is there a more specific property

12:16:33 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: would you describe a service unconnected to a dataset?

12:16:36 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: yes

12:16:53 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: but that takes it out of scope of this group

12:17:09 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: how deep do you go in describing the service?

12:17:21 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: not much deeper,

12:20:49 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: how do we support users in e.g. chatbot?

12:21:18 [danbri]

danbri has joined #dxwg

12:21:30 [danbri]

rrsagent, pointer?

12:21:30 [RRSAgent]

See https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-irc#T12-21-30

12:21:42 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: scope creep is something to be guarded against

12:21:51 [danbri]

q+ to ask whether Catalogs being (sometimes) also Datasets, would allow service aspects to be attached via their "dataset" side

12:22:32 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: they are all 'data' services

12:22:36 [PWinstanley]

ack danbri

12:22:36 [Zakim]

danbri, you wanted to ask whether Catalogs being (sometimes) also Datasets, would allow service aspects to be attached via their "dataset" side

12:22:49 [kcoyle]

ack

12:23:03 [kcoyle]

ack sees please

12:23:07 [kcoyle]

q?

12:23:27 [PWinstanley]

danbri: there is a type in schema.org that covers all types of services, is there a subset that is appropriate for data services. We use dataset.

12:23:43 [PWinstanley]

... would this tidy things

12:24:24 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: this would be confusing for people

12:24:55 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: there is a missing link Catalogue and CataloguedItem

12:25:04 [DaveBrowning]

DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg

12:25:57 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: the reason to have named classes is to have subclasses

12:26:11 [DaveBrowning]

DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg

12:26:12 [PWinstanley]

danbri: axioms have their place, but it is not the reason we do things

12:26:34 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: only a distribution can have a distribution?

12:26:48 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: data transformation service might not

12:26:57 [danbri]

From W3C AC meeting 18 years ago, https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/NamespacesAreResources.html ... big debate on whether dictionaries belong in the library, and whether namespaces belong in the Web.

12:27:18 [PWinstanley]

... it couldhave relations with datasets but would have relations with other data

12:27:50 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: dataset is the conceptual thing - so how can a service be against a conceptual thing?

12:27:52 [Makx]

+1 to karen

12:28:01 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

+1

12:28:06 [antoine]

antoine has joined #dxwg

12:28:36 [danbri]

"Are books necessarily products? no... can a thing that's a book often be usefully described as a product, sure."; "Are catalogs necessarily datasets, maybe kinda, maybe no ... can a thing that is a catalog often be usefully described as a dataset, ... sure"

12:28:55 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: the case we had in mind was a service hosting a number of data services capable of subsetting and delivering in different representations

12:29:21 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: we don't have an idea of representation at the moment

12:29:41 [PWinstanley]

... we don't have the "Artifact" from the IDS model

12:29:49 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: but it has the format

12:30:18 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: the service will e.g. take statistics and convert to schema.org

12:30:33 [PWinstanley]

... which layer would that go on?

12:30:57 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: it is data transformation but it would know about schemas and formats, but not about specific datasets

12:33:35 [PWinstanley]

danbri: are there non-catalogued datasets whose interfaces will be related to what you're dealing with? e.g. archival services. I think catalogues are datasets

12:35:25 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: it seems we are at a similar point to the conversation this morning when discussion around profiles and DCAT - in this case should services be on their own?

12:36:04 [AndreaPerego]

q+

12:37:09 [PWinstanley]

ack AndreaPerego

12:37:10 [kcoyle]

ack AndreaPerego

12:37:20 [kcoyle]

ack please

12:38:23 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: one possible issue - even though we have the core we may need to modify it ... how do we model the resources in a catalogue. just using the definitionof dcat you can use anything that is not a dataset

12:38:39 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

q+

12:38:41 [PWinstanley]

... this could be overused/abused

12:39:11 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: there are other things that can be hasPart.

12:40:31 [danbri]

x dcat:dataset y, will imply x dcterms:hasPart y via subpropertyof

12:40:56 [danbri]

... but other different properties are also subproperties of dcterms:hasPart; and those don't necessarily link x and y.

12:41:12 [danbri]

if dcterms:hasPart is a subproperty of another property, then x and y would be linked by that relationship too

12:41:40 [AndreaPerego]

AndreaPerego: Implicitly, you can put inside a dcat:Catalog resources different from dcat:Dataset's by dct:hasPart - as dcat:dataset is a subproperty of dct:hasPart

12:47:58 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: DCAT is the european std for cataloguing , and the absence of a method of including things other than datasets is restricting use.

12:48:20 [PWinstanley]

... we shouldn't be too open, but we need to expand

12:48:32 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: we need to open scope carefully

12:48:46 [danbri]

q+

12:49:09 [kcoyle]

ack Jaroslav_Pullmann

12:49:32 [antoine]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

12:49:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html antoine

12:49:38 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: inappropriate terminology - having dataset at the top of the terminology.

12:50:05 [Makx]

q+

12:50:35 [PWinstanley]

... in updating DCAT what will happen to ADMS?

12:50:40 [kcoyle]

ack danbri

12:51:51 [PWinstanley]

danbri: we need to channel enthusiasm, so the interest in DCAT needs to be constrained to ensure we don't re-invent RDF inside DCAT

12:52:17 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: we don't want overuse of dct:hsaPart

12:52:38 [PWinstanley]

s/hsaPart/hasPart/

12:53:21 [kcoyle]

ack Makx

12:54:04 [PWinstanley]

Makx: re: ADMS - out of scope

12:55:07 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

... o.k. - but will ADMS automatically import the updated DCAT?

12:55:16 [PWinstanley]

... but ADMS is a profile of DCAT and users use ADMS-AP, this is a different profile of DCAT for a different application

12:55:30 [PWinstanley]

q?

12:55:37 [Makx]

q+

12:55:40 [AndreaPerego]

Jaroslav_Pullmann, no there's no import mechanism,

12:55:53 [Makx]

q-

12:56:01 [Makx]

+1 to Andrea

12:56:24 [AndreaPerego]

DataCite resource types: https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/CITnet/stash/projects/ODCKAN/repos/datacite-to-dcat-ap/browse/documentation/Mappings.md#mapping-1st-level

12:57:35 [Makx]

@ Jaro: ADMS classes are subclasses of DCAT classes. If those do not change in ways that are not backwards compatible, there should be no problem

12:58:58 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

... when DCAT URIs do not change and ADMS extends those (historical and new) definitions, then they will become availabe, e.g. adms:Distributions will link to DataServices etc.

12:59:25 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: based on existing communities we can get an idea of what gets put into catalogues

12:59:52 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: when we type things as text or sound what are we talking about?

13:00:30 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: creating a standard doesn't control behaviour, it just gives people a starting point

13:00:53 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I would be comfortable refactoring the documentation -

13:01:26 [SimonCox]

Looking at https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-service-simon/dcat/#conformance

13:02:13 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: note the 'Access to....' bit

13:02:42 [PWinstanley]

... datasets, distributions etc

13:03:18 [PWinstanley]

... I added to the DCAT Profile chunk, inherited from the original doc

13:03:29 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: it could be definitions of

13:03:58 [PWinstanley]

LarsG: but if we say profiles don't define vocab it couldn't be in

13:04:49 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: I updated the github to address this - subclassing is a restriction

13:04:53 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: , but in an RDF way subclassing extends

13:05:37 [PWinstanley]

... is this about subclassing from DCAT?

13:06:10 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: no, I'm not meaning that. I'm meaning bringing in something from outside

13:06:38 [kcoyle]

q?

13:06:44 [PWinstanley]

... I am only making small changes to the existing structure

13:07:26 [PWinstanley]

kcoyle: if the group accepts the service idea I'd put it in its own section in this document

13:08:15 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: at 5.7 we need to complete

13:08:33 [PWinstanley]

LarsG: can a data distribution be read against a live DB?

13:08:54 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: yes, there are sparql endpoints, for example

13:09:17 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: lastUpdated can be 'now' or with a periodicity

13:11:19 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]

q+

13:11:52 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: could this be related to the missing containment relation?

13:11:57 [PWinstanley]

ack Jaroslav_Pullmann

13:12:19 [PWinstanley]

SimonCox: we may need to look at this now

13:12:48 [PWinstanley]

AndreaPerego: people try to do a minimum in terms of metadata entry

13:13:14 [PWinstanley]

Jaroslav_Pullmann: we are looking at wizards and other tools support in the IDS

13:16:14 [PWinstanley]

general discussion on databases vs data services

13:20:37 [AndreaPerego]

q+

13:23:19 [danbri]

(looking for old w3c notes on rdf <-> uml, ... https://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-rdf-uml-19980804/ didn't really touch these issues, I think there's a 2006ish note that does, somewhere.)

13:27:22 [PWinstanley]

discussion about agents and automation

13:29:13 [AndreaPerego]

q?

13:29:18 [AndreaPerego]

ack AndreaPerego

13:29:25 [SimonCox]

scribenick: SimonCox

13:29:33 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

13:29:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

13:30:32 [SimonCox]

danbri: will demonstrate way to use JSON-LD context to alias terms in JSON data to different RDF vocabularies, schema.org, etc

13:31:38 [danbri]

Dan's presentation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16c_STDu8Dzj-ioRNuGS2tlIFJamlx0-vRKBaPA5Wzfc/edit# plus copy content of https://gist.githubusercontent.com/danbri/8979469ddace192a5c0b8fc6e32fbc32/raw/dba54b89a689fdcd25b8162b70212a326fc0707d/gistfile1.txt into https://json-ld.org/playground/ as an introductory example.

13:50:40 [SimonCox]

s/known/know

13:51:23 [SimonCox]

danbri: has the floor

13:51:33 [riccardo_albertoni]

riccardo_albertoni has joined #dxwg

13:52:13 [riccardoalbertoni]

riccardoalbertoni has joined #dxwg

13:52:14 [PWinstanley]

q?

13:52:17 [SimonCox]

... partial writeup - JSON surface syntax <-> RDF information

13:52:25 [riccardoalbertoni]

present+

13:52:47 [SimonCox]

... JSON-LD has concept of Context - define shortnames for ns, props, terms

13:53:02 [SimonCox]

... Context might be inline, or might be remote

13:53:22 [SimonCox]

... maps cURIs into shortnames

13:53:58 [SimonCox]

... allows you to hide multiple namespaces, less scary for web devs

13:55:55 [SimonCox]

... can apply different contexts to the same (surface) JSON --> mapping to different RDF vocabs

13:56:44 [SimonCox]

... demonstrate with same JSON --> ( schema.org | wikidata | DCAT-AP )

13:58:32 [SimonCox]

... provides environment to compare how it looks to data, web, search consumers

14:00:24 [SimonCox]

... will encourage Google understand JSON-LD Context files

14:00:36 [SimonCox]

s/understand/to understand/

14:04:00 [SimonCox]

... possibly has relevance to Application Profiles?

14:10:59 [SimonCox]

... is this possibly in scope for DXWG, possibly for publication as W3C Note?

14:11:16 [SimonCox]

... will write up as a W3C blog-post in next few days

14:13:30 [SimonCox]

AndreaPerego: possibly syntax to capture mappings, in particular the common-core of (DCAT | ISO-19115) to schema.org to support indexing

14:14:04 [SimonCox]

... will never be comprehensive

14:15:09 [SimonCox]

Group finds it interesting but not sure it is a DXWG thing ... yet

14:15:18 [SimonCox]

PWinstanley: closing -

14:15:27 [danbri]

danbri has joined #dxwg

14:16:31 [SimonCox]

... 1. decision about next plenary telecon? Fortnightly date would be 2018-05-15 - too early?

14:17:34 [SimonCox]

... more sessions to consolidate f2f3 work?

14:17:59 [SimonCox]

... 2. DCAT FPWD about to land. Need to activate our networks to ensure community input

14:20:06 [SimonCox]

SimonCox: Profiles team do need to get cranked up!

14:21:39 [SimonCox]

Next plenary meetings on 2018-05-15, 2018-05-22, 2018-05-29 then fortnightly again

14:24:37 [kcoyle]

action: kcoyle to send actions and resolutions to mailing list

14:24:55 [trackbot]

Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.

14:25:10 [kcoyle]

BIG THANKS TO RICCARDO!

14:25:36 [AndreaPerego]

Thanks, Riccardo1

14:25:56 [AndreaPerego]

s/Riccardo1/Riccardo!/

14:26:01 [LarsG]

Very well organised, thanks riccardoalbertoni

14:26:50 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:26:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

14:26:51 [kcoyle]

rrsagent, generate minutes v2

14:26:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle

14:26:53 [Makx]

bye

14:27:00 [LarsG]

bye Makx

14:27:02 [AndreaPerego]

bye, Makx

14:27:24 [SimonCox]

action: danbri to write his blog post

14:27:33 [trackbot]

Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker. Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.

14:28:47 [SimonCox]

rrsagent, generate minutes v2

14:28:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html SimonCox

14:29:31 [AndreaPerego]

[meeting adjourned]

14:29:32 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:29:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego

14:30:42 [AndreaPerego]

RRSAgent, draft minutes v2

14:30:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/09-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego