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15:12:10 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:12:10 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:12:10 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:12:10 <ivan> Date: 2018-05-07
15:12:10 <ivan> Regrets+ Luc, laurent
15:12:10 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018May/0009.html
15:12:10 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-05-07: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018May/0009.html
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15:40:53 <ivan> regrets+ vlad
15:41:15 <ivan> regrets+ awsisco
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15:56:40 <tzviya> present+
15:56:56 <dkaplan3> present+
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16:00:34 <NickRuffilo> present+
16:00:51 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:00:51 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose George
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16:01:04 <JunGamo> present+
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16:01:11 <franco> present+
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16:01:19 <Rachel> scribenick: Rachel
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16:01:33 <rdeltour> present+
16:01:34 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:01:43 <lsullam> present+
16:01:54 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:02:15 <ivan> present+
16:02:22 <Rachel> present+
16:02:32 <Rachel> Note: This meeting is cancelled for next week
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16:02:55 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
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16:02:56 <Rachel> Topic: New members?
16:03:20 <josh> josh has joined #pwg
16:03:23 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-04-30-pwg.html
16:03:24 <Rachel> tzviya: no new members
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16:03:31 <Rachel> Topic: Minutes from last week?
16:03:34 <Rachel> dauwhe: approved
16:03:38 <josh> present+
16:03:42 <Rachel> tzviya: approved
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16:04:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:04:54 <Rachel> Topic: Use Cases
16:06:34 <Rachel> josh: The decision we took was that NickRuffilo would focus on trade use cases and I would focus on scholarly
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16:07:23 <garth> present+ Garth
16:07:26 <gpellegrino> present+
16:07:27 <Rachel> NickRuffilo: as josh noted, I am taking care of trade and academic use cases - if anyone has experience in the academic space and can help me with use cases
16:07:52 <Rachel> ...please volunteer
16:08:10 <Rachel> ... academic in this case means education
16:08:26 <tzviya> existing use cases https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
16:08:32 <Rachel> ...focused around what is necessary and where those gaps are
16:08:59 <Rachel> Rachel: Franco and I volunteer on educational use cases
16:09:38 <Rachel> josh: I've read the use case documents and rather than approach it as a technical spec, I approached it as a scholarly publisher
16:10:05 <Rachel> ...I thought about what we needed in order to make these web publications
16:10:25 <Rachel> ...every pub wants to ensure fidelity and usage
16:10:28 <bigbluehat> present+
16:10:33 <Rachel> s/pub/publisher
16:11:01 <George> q+
16:11:47 <Rachel> ...there are no use cases where publishers track usage of their product... if you made a venn diagram of fidelity (publishing scientific record accurately), controlling the content, and usage
16:12:02 <Rachel> ...web publishing is at the center of these things
16:12:30 <Rachel> ...publishing fidelity has been the job of pdfs forever
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16:13:04 <George> Or if there was no PDF it would look a lot different.
16:13:09 <Rachel> ...there would be no scholarly publishing on the web if it weren't for pdf 20 years ago because it looked the same making it acceptable to libarians
16:13:28 <Rachel> ...there were also no use cases for layout/print fidelity
16:13:37 <Rachel> ...is this the right place for that?
16:13:47 <wolfgang> s/libarians/librarians/
16:13:56 <Rachel> ...scholarly pubs don't want another pdf
16:14:11 <wolfgang> s/pubs/publishers/
16:14:16 <Rachel> ...because it looks like we're creating another venue for piracy
16:14:36 <ivan> q+
16:14:46 <Rachel> ...we want to maintain the control of html and the publishing fidelity of pdf
16:15:17 <Rachel> ...while the rest of the world shares links, in our industry (scholarly publishing) shares actual documents
16:15:35 <Rachel> q?
16:15:55 <bigbluehat> q+ to mention https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Apocalyptic-Publishing-Scenarios
16:16:20 <Rachel> ...should we consider pwp as more of a requirement that it be packable rather than requiring the package format
16:17:12 <Rachel> ...can we prune the package requirements to focus on platform requirements etc?
16:17:30 <dauwhe> q+
16:17:41 <tzviya> ack George
16:17:45 <dkaplan3> q+
16:17:48 <Rachel> tzviya: that last question is something josh and I talked about last week - are we getting bogged down in the PWP details?
16:18:29 <Rachel> george: in the use cases do we want to consider professors who are authoring web publications and sending to the publisher or adding to their own LMS
16:18:40 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:18:55 <Rachel> tzviya: exactly how broad wpub is will be tackled by bigbluehat
16:19:24 <Rachel> ivan: thank you... this is the type of conversation we should have had early on
16:19:40 <josh> q+
16:19:40 <Rachel> ...the issue of print fidelity seems less important today than it used to be
16:19:59 <Rachel> ...there are many fewer printed journals than previously
16:20:17 <josh> q?
16:20:30 <Rachel> ...I just returned from a conference where there is an html publication which is very different from the pdf
16:20:46 <josh> +1 offlining
16:20:58 <Rachel> ...from the scholarly publishing POV, what we call "offlining" is much more important than what we call packaging
16:21:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to offlining more important than packaging
16:21:39 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:21:39 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to mention https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Apocalyptic-Publishing-Scenarios
16:21:51 <Rachel> ...offlining doesn't mean I want to have it permanently but that I want to be able to read that when I am not online
16:22:29 <Rachel> bigbluehat: I wanted to mention https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Apocalyptic-Publishing-Scenarios, which are use cases but also what happens when things fail (as well as what happens when things work)
16:23:06 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:23:23 <Rachel> ...it would be great to see these potential fails, apocolyptic scenarios, or "bad actor" use cases documented
16:23:45 <EvanOwens> q+
16:24:06 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:24:08 <Rachel> dauwhe: the question of fidelity is "fidelity to what?" is it the print version which is sometimes a predecessor to digital
16:24:13 <ivan> regrets+ jmulliken, heather
16:24:19 <Rachel> ...that is out of scope for this working group
16:24:38 <dauwhe> Fidelity to the vision of the author!
16:24:41 <Rachel> dkaplan3: a lot of broad assertions are being made about things that are true in some but not all cases
16:24:47 <EvanOwens> q-
16:25:11 <Rachel> ...ie offlining vs packaging - the many generations of coursepacks in education
16:25:22 <timCole> q+
16:25:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:26:09 <Rachel> ... there are cases which require both offline and packaging, others that require just one of the two
16:26:28 <Rachel> ...I also absolutely think we're bogged down in packaging details
16:27:15 <Rachel> ...I think we need to step back from the technical details conversations where we spend weeks focusing on a single detail
16:27:32 <George> Perhaps this is purely the domain of CSS, but we want to make sure that our publications facilate comprehension. A best practice set of CSS for your average author/professor is needed.
16:28:02 <Rachel> tzviya: I want to emphasize that both offlining and packaging are important
16:28:02 <tzviya> ack josh
16:28:50 <tzviya> zakim, close the queue
16:28:50 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is closed
16:29:03 <dkaplan3> Josh, print page numbers is an accessibility thing and it is VITAL
16:29:10 <dkaplan3> oops wrong window
16:29:22 <ivan> +1 to Josh
16:29:28 <Rachel> josh: regarding fidelity - print fidelity is not what I meant even though I said it a few times. The requirements to find the print page numbers are baffling to me. What I really meant in terms of fidelity is faithful reproduction of the science - to do math, scientific formula well
16:29:36 <pkra> there are literally a dozen solutions now.
16:29:40 <pkra> seriously.
16:30:12 <Rachel> ...these aren't available which is why we have to use so many plugins like mathjax
16:30:36 <dkaplan3> But you can ask me offline and I can explain why print page numbers (anyone who wants can ask me offline), and how they are in many Epubs but you won't see them if you don't have certain accessibility settings on.
16:30:37 <Rachel> ...if you can give me the formula for a molecule and a tool for rasterizing that is preferable to an image
16:30:43 <tzviya> q?
16:30:47 <tzviya> ack timCole
16:30:54 <Rachel> ...we need to reproduce the science for old and new users alike
16:31:11 <Rachel> timCole: fidelity is also important in humanities, such as the appearance of poetry
16:31:33 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:31:34 <Rachel> ...it's also fidelity over time - will someone years from now have the same experience as today
16:31:41 <tzviya> zakim, open the queue
16:31:41 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open
16:31:44 <Rachel> ...it speaks to archiving needs
16:32:38 <Rachel> Bill_Kasdorf: a journals publication page numbers are going to have different requirements and needs - page numbers in the print journal, in the coursepack, and in the online version
16:32:50 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr
16:33:05 <Rachel> tzviya: start watching this repository and add your issues
16:33:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> actually what I was pointing out was that there are three separate publications being discussed (not about page numbers): the journal article, the journal issue that contains that article, and the coursepack that contains that article. Three separate publications with separate use cases.
16:33:47 <Rachel> tzviya: I was discussing manifest etc with bigbluehat
16:33:48 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/104
16:33:49 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/104
16:33:57 <ivan> regrets+ mattg
16:34:24 <Rachel> Topic: Manifests etc
16:34:34 <bigbluehat> Topic: What is the Browsing Context of a Web Publication?
16:35:01 <dauwhe> definition: "A browsing context is an environment in which Document objects are presented to the user."
16:35:07 <Rachel> bigbluehat: we have been talking in terms of manifests and infosets about where stuff will happen
16:35:21 <Rachel> ...where the web ideal for the appendix runs/exists etc
16:36:20 <Rachel> ...on the web current web apps are currently dependent on a host of specs/browsing context
16:37:32 <Rachel> ...when you request a url in your browser it creates a browsing context - the top level context
16:37:50 <Rachel> ...when your browser responds in html it gives you the content that you want to look
16:38:12 <Rachel> ...when you navigate it gives you what happens next
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16:39:04 <Rachel> ...the other spaces in which a browsing context can be created is an add on which has it's own space and its own rules and is not defined by the browser
16:39:14 <Rachel> ...it's determined by another spec much earlier on
16:39:33 <Rachel> ...there's an in progress CG spec that has been in development for a long time for this
16:39:51 <Rachel> ...so there is the web experience and the add on experience
16:39:56 <garth> q?
16:41:19 <ivan> q?
16:42:19 <Rachel> bigbluehat: as the web is built now the browsin context has a lot of prior art and specs for how content is acquisitioned, used, secured, made safe
16:42:48 <Rachel> ...whereas an alternate browsing context needs these - how it is acquisitioned, used, secured, made safe
16:42:55 <wolfgang> s/browsin/browsing/
16:44:30 <ivan> q+
16:44:33 <dauwhe> q+
16:44:33 <Rachel> ...the web is not as contained a container as the webpub is. 104 asks the question - do we continue with the web model or define a new thing which our spec mentioned in passing - do we need a web publication context. It's no small fete to establish this.
16:44:39 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:45:22 <Rachel> ivan: if we decide to go our ow nway with publication context, we will have to define loads of things which require loads of specifications in areas we way not be familiar
16:45:38 <Rachel> bigbluehat: the only existing one is the add-on which does not cover the full range
16:45:41 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:45:43 <wolfgang> s/way/may/
16:46:47 <garth> q?
16:46:49 <Rachel> dauwhe: there is language - a manifest is applied to a top level browsing context. A top level browsing context with a manifest applied to it is a top-level manifest.
16:46:58 <dauwhe> "A manifest is applied to a top-level browsing context, meaning that the members of the manifest are affecting the presentation or behavior of a browsing context."
16:47:05 <dauwhe> "A top-level browsing context that has a manifest applied to it is referred to as an application context. "
16:47:37 <Hadrien> q+
16:47:42 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:48:09 <dauwhe> q+
16:48:15 <Rachel> Hadrien: in terms of scoping, in terms of what's in and out for a webpub, we have a different approach than webapps
16:48:27 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:48:33 <Rachel> ...we have to be careful in how we talk about this in that iteffects our whole infoset
16:48:52 <wolfgang> s/iteffects/it affects/
16:48:56 <tzviya> q+
16:49:10 <Rachel> dauwhe: if I preform a navigation in a web publication the use has to check against the manifest to ???
16:49:27 <wolfgang> s/preform/perform/
16:49:38 <Rachel> Hadrien: this is nothing new in terms of reading systems
16:49:45 <dauwhe> s/???/determine how to handle the URL/
16:50:54 <ivan> q+
16:50:55 <garth> q?
16:50:57 <Rachel> tzviya: this is what we wanted to depart from in reading systems.this method of checking against a list of items and then checking against the URL is what we want to depart from
16:50:58 <josh> +1 tzviya
16:51:00 <garth> ack tzviya
16:51:00 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:51:26 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:51:30 <bigbluehat> q+
16:51:32 <Rachel> Hadrien: if you're saying this is problematic, then it is also problematic in web app manifest
16:52:30 <Rachel> ivan: to be very specific, let's say I have a web publication and I have solved the personalization issue (ie background color) I would find the link and as a result I go to another place and my background has not stayed as I set it within my personalized interface
16:52:54 <Rachel> ...I think this is what is being said - certain effects are varied only for the URL
16:53:12 <garth> q?
16:53:15 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:53:17 <Rachel> ...the user interface will be defined by the location of the experience
16:54:21 <ivan> q?
16:54:41 <Rachel> bigbluehat: a webapp that you load in your browser and do not install in your homescreen will not change your experience but your personalization will not be lost. If you use a webapp manifest to install to your homescreen, you now have a separate  running space as defined within the scope
16:55:02 <Rachel> ...in that sense, it feels you've moved into a book
16:55:21 <Rachel> ...the value of webapp manifest is maintaining that personalized experience
16:55:29 <ivan> q+
16:56:41 <Rachel> ...in the case of a webapp and webapp manifest, there is a well documented experience profile for... ??
16:56:50 <Hadrien> nope
16:56:56 <josh> q?
16:57:02 <garth> ack ivan
16:57:04 <bigbluehat> q+
16:58:19 <Rachel> ivan: we should focus on that which we really have to care about... I have no problem if someone picks up a webpub and does something on the homescreen with it or if someone picks something up from browser and does the same - it can look different and I am okay with that. I'm not sure this is up for us to define
16:58:41 <josh> The meeting just ended.
16:58:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> gtm just unplugged
17:00:08 <garth> q?
17:00:16 <bigbluehat> q-
17:00:16 <josh> I guess we'll have to pick this up next week :-|
17:00:19 <Rachel> George: if the navigation that I call omnipresent (the toc) is the only inside the publication and anything not in the TOC is outside the publication then we have a scope
17:00:27 <pkra> I have to leave, I'm afraid.
17:02:40 <Rachel> I had to sign off to turn over the meeting room, apologies
17:02:51 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #pwg
17:02:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/05/07-pwg-minutes.html ivan
17:02:57 <ivan> zakim, bye
17:02:57 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:02:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, dkaplan, wolfgang, George, dauwhe, Avneesh, NickRuffilo, JunGamo, rkwright, franco, rdeltour, Tim_Cole, lsullam,
17:02:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
17:03:00 <Zakim> ... BenSchroeter, ivan, Rachel, pkra, Chris_Maden, josh, Bill_Kasdorf, Garth, gpellegrino, bigbluehat