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19:47:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/04/25-dxwgdcat-irc
19:48:02 <SimonCox> rrsagent: make logs public
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20:00:20 <SimonCox> meeting: DCAT Vocabulary team 2018-04-25
20:00:27 <roba> present+
20:00:28 <SimonCox> present+
20:00:31 <arminhaller> present+
20:00:49 <SimonCox> regrets: Riccardo
20:01:52 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
20:01:57 <SimonCox> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.04.25
20:02:03 <PWinstanley> present+
20:02:41 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> stijn_goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwgdcat
20:02:47 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> present+
20:04:01 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwgdcat
20:04:23 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present+
20:06:01 <SimonCox> regrets: Alejandra(we-think)
20:07:04 <SimonCox> scribenick: arminhaller
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20:07:26 <SimonCox> chair: SimonCox
20:08:45 <arminhaller> +1 for reopening the time discussion
20:08:57 <SimonCox> Topic: approve agenda
20:09:28 <alejandra> present+
20:10:18 <arminhaller> +1 for 8am UTC
20:10:24 <alejandra> +q
20:10:25 <PWinstanley> +1 for time proposal
20:10:30 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> +1
20:10:32 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1 for times proposed (9 AM EST)
20:10:39 <roba> +1
20:10:39 <SimonCox> Maybe 8am UK, 9am Europe, 5pm Eastern Australia
20:10:40 <alejandra> impossible for me at 8 am
20:10:59 <arminhaller> what about 9am?
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20:11:05 <alejandra> q-
20:11:19 <PWinstanley> how about 09:30?
20:11:44 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:11:51 <alejandra> 9:30 would work for me
20:11:54 <SimonCox> Action: make suggestion for 9:30UK 10:30Europe, 18:30EAUst to the list
20:11:54 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:12:05 <alejandra> depends on the date
20:12:21 <PWinstanley> date or day?
20:12:30 <alejandra> day, thanks :)
20:12:44 <SimonCox> Topic: Approve minutes of last meeting
20:12:56 <SimonCox>  https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes
20:13:02 <SimonCox> +1
20:13:03 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> +1
20:13:03 <roba> +1
20:13:08 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:13:09 <alejandra> 0 (was absent)
20:13:17 <arminhaller> 0 (wasn't there)
20:13:17 <PWinstanley> +1
20:13:23 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> 0 (most of time absent)
20:14:00 <arminhaller> resolved approve minutes
20:14:08 <SimonCox> Topic: Consequences of expanded scope of dcat:Catalog
20:15:06 <arminhaller> SimonCox: Proposal tabled last week, but no consensus yet
20:15:16 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Cataloguing-data-services#alternative-views
20:15:17 <arminhaller> ... discussion on a number of patterns last week
20:16:42 <arminhaller> Diagram a: Represents the current use of Catalog in Europe
20:17:18 <arminhaller> ... uses dct:hasPart property to link to other resources other than Datasets
20:18:18 <arminhaller> Diagram b: multiple services are modelled as subclasses of dctype:Service
20:19:05 <arminhaller> Diagram c: DataService is a subClassOf Distribution with a relation back to Datasets
20:19:31 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
20:19:49 <arminhaller> ... However, in current DCAT, Distributions are not members of Catalogs, i.e. this pattern does not mean that the DataService is member of a Catalog
20:19:52 <SimonCox> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w3c/dxwg/gh-pages/dcat/images/Catalog-membership-options.png
20:19:53 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
20:20:56 <alejandra> +q
20:21:11 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
20:21:39 <roba> "<roba> anyway - I'm pointing out what looks like an antipattern in the model, and missing consideration of the implications of service types in distribution semantics - i would rather see this discussed when those facilities are on the table"
20:21:47 <arminhaller> alejandra: have you considered the definition of DataService and how it relates to dctype:Service
20:22:48 <roba> q+
20:23:02 <SimonCox> ack roba
20:23:49 <arminhaller> +1 that Model c is an antipattern
20:23:57 <AndreaPerego> q+ to note that, just looking at the geo domain, there are view, transformation etc. services - not "download" services, strictly speaking
20:24:09 <PWinstanley> I'm favouring 'e' too
20:24:09 <SimonCox> q?
20:24:14 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
20:24:14 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to note that, just looking at the geo domain, there are view, transformation etc. services - not "download" services, strictly speaking
20:24:57 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: there are multiple types of services
20:25:10 <arminhaller> ... which are not necessarily downloadservices
20:25:19 <arminhaller> q+
20:25:39 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, make Logs public
20:25:40 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: such as transformation services
20:26:18 <roba> I dont mind solving that issue now - just want it to be explicit :-)
20:26:44 <PWinstanley> AndreaPerego:  would authentication services be included somewhere?
20:27:15 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent,  draft minutes v2
20:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/25-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:27:34 <arminhaller> Diagram d: is a tweaked version of a, and accommodates other types of services
20:27:54 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +q
20:29:33 <arminhaller> SimonCox: f relaxes the semantics of Dataset
20:29:55 <arminhaller> ... but then its name is confusing
20:30:02 <roba> q+
20:30:34 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> q+ in alternative F dcat:dataset could be a sub-property of a new dcat:member property
20:30:38 <SimonCox> ack arminhaller
20:31:25 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> q+
20:31:47 <SimonCox> arminhaller: OWL-S is impler model, though not widely used
20:32:06 <alejandra> s/impler/simpler
20:32:27 <SimonCox> q+ to point out that dcat:dataset and dcat:service are sub-properties of dct:hasPart
20:32:37 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
20:34:27 <SimonCox> ack roba
20:34:34 <arminhaller> stijn_goedertier_AIV: DataServices might be a special service that serves Distributions, i.e. I like proposal D
20:34:42 <SimonCox> q?
20:35:04 <alejandra> +q to ask about the relationship between the whole Data Catalog and the DataService
20:35:06 <AndreaPerego> q+ to propose we add to the service-related wiki page a list of service "types" from existing standards (as ISO 19119)
20:35:25 <arminhaller> roba: what about using the dctype taxonomy
20:35:44 <arminhaller> SimonCox: Inspire has a seperate vocabulary of service types
20:36:28 <AndreaPerego> ^^ http://inspire.ec.europa.eu/metadata-codelist/SpatialDataServiceType
20:36:30 <arminhaller> s/seperate/separate
20:36:54 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
20:36:54 <Zakim> alejandra, you wanted to ask about the relationship between the whole Data Catalog and the DataService
20:37:46 <arminhaller> alejandra: Diagram e makes it clearer that the catalog also has a Dataservice
20:38:08 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: can you comment on alejandra question
20:38:14 <AndreaPerego> alejandra, there are actually two different scenarios: a catalogue as a service, and a catalogue as a subset of another catalogue
20:38:42 <SimonCox> ack stijn_goedertier_AIV
20:38:47 <arminhaller> s/stijn_goedertier_AIV: DataServices/Jaroslav: DataServices
20:39:10 <arminhaller> stijn_goedertier_AIV: both solutions e and f can address the need for sources, more inclined for f
20:39:50 <AndreaPerego> regrets- Alejandra(we-think)
20:40:08 <SimonCox> q?
20:40:15 <arminhaller> stijn_goedertier_AIV: f allows other resources to be types of catalog
20:40:19 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
20:40:19 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to point out that dcat:dataset and dcat:service are sub-properties of dct:hasPart
20:41:09 <arminhaller> SimonCox: generic membership predicate provides a proper extensibility. dct:hasPart is used as a generic membership predicate in proposal A, for example
20:41:40 <arminhaller> ... dataService would be a subclass of dct:hasPart or another generic membership predicate
20:42:24 <roba> and A
20:42:30 <arminhaller> ... same applies for service in proposal E, which would be a subclass of a generic membership predicate
20:42:39 <SimonCox> q?
20:42:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> @Simon: would such a "membership predicate" be re-used to indicate content hierarchies (of e.g. DataSets)?
20:42:57 <arminhaller> +1 for Simon's proposal of a generic membership that is subpropertied
20:43:11 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
20:43:12 <arminhaller> s/generic membership/generic membership predicate
20:43:24 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
20:43:24 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to propose we add to the service-related wiki page a list of service "types" from existing standards (as ISO 19119)
20:43:54 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: it might be worth capturing this in the wiki page
20:44:09 <alejandra> +1 to capture the list of available services
20:44:46 <arminhaller> ... in the current usage of DCAT, there are different types of catalogs, such as geospatial catalogs
20:45:00 <arminhaller> ... and to group datasets in these catalogs, i.e. have subcatalogs
20:46:00 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
20:46:12 <arminhaller> ... a specific property to link a catalog to a service would be needed
20:46:44 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: selective dataservices might serve selected types of distributions
20:46:57 <SimonCox> q?
20:48:09 <arminhaller> ... reuse the same predicate that we propose to have a content hierarchy of service types
20:48:35 <arminhaller> ... we don't have a content model for datasets
20:49:53 <SimonCox> maybe this proposal:  model dcat:Catalog memebrship according to pattern E with membership predicates (e.g. dcat:dataset and others) modelled as sub-properties of the generic membership predicate (perhaps dct:hasPart?)
20:50:15 <arminhaller> s/memebrship/membership
20:50:42 <roba> q+
20:50:47 <arminhaller> +1 to the proposal with "servesDataset" a subproperty of output
20:51:50 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1 for re-using a (recursive) membership predicate for 1st and N-th level of containment
20:51:55 <AndreaPerego> q+ to make a correction about diagram A
20:52:06 <SimonCox> ack roba
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20:52:20 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> q+
20:52:26 <Makx_> present+ Makx
20:52:54 <arminhaller> roba: what canonical subtypes do we need to add, e.g. like the one armin proposed for servesDataset
20:53:21 <arminhaller> s/servesDataset/servesDataset?
20:53:59 <arminhaller> SimonCox: roba are you suggesting that we need to nail down the semantics of these new properties
20:54:11 <arminhaller> s/properties/properties?
20:54:43 <PWinstanley> +1 to roba
20:54:50 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
20:54:50 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to make a correction about diagram A
20:54:54 <arminhaller> roba: it is a problem that comes up time and time again, what bits are canonical and which bits are open
20:55:36 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: question mark on diagram e is the relation between service and dataset
20:55:49 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:55:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/25-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:56:10 <arminhaller> ... relaxing the domain of dcat:dataset would solve the problem too
20:56:49 <arminhaller> ... link between the Distribution and the DataService
20:56:57 <arminhaller> ... is missing in e
20:57:17 <arminhaller> SimonCox: it should be in e, but i haven't carried it down from proposal d to e
20:57:29 <SimonCox> q?
20:57:33 <SimonCox> ack stijn_goedertier_AIV
20:58:18 <arminhaller> stijn_goedertier_AIV: difference between e and f, are we not missing the opportunity to have a hierarchy of types
20:58:53 <arminhaller> ... i am in favour of changing DCAT rather than proposing new properties
20:59:35 <alejandra> +1 to a merge of solutions E and F
20:59:44 <arminhaller> SimonCox: stijn_goedertier_AIV you are looking for a merger of e and f
20:59:49 <SimonCox> Proposed: model dcat:Catalog membership according to pattern E with membership predicates (dcat:dataset, dcat:service, dcat:catalog and perhaps others) modelled as sub-properties of the generic membership predicate (perhaps dct:hasPart?), and member classes as sub-classes of a generic catalogued-item
21:00:02 <roba> +1
21:00:14 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:00:15 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:00:17 <stijn_goedertier_AIV> +1
21:00:18 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:00:20 <alejandra> +1
21:00:29 <SimonCox> i.e. merge E and F (and point out alignment to OWL-S)
21:00:31 <arminhaller> 0 (probably it would be worth seeing the final proposal in a diagram first)
21:00:31 <SimonCox> +1
21:00:40 <PWinstanley> +1
21:01:29 <arminhaller> *thumbsup* for the diagrams
21:01:33 <arminhaller> bye
21:01:36 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:01:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/25-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:01:38 <PWinstanley> bye
21:01:43 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
21:01:47 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye!
21:06:13 <AndreaPerego> regrets+ Riccardo
21:06:21 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:06:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/25-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
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