IRC log of dxwgdcat on 2018-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:55:29 [RRSAgent]
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19:55:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-irc
19:55:41 [SimonCox]
rrsagent: make logs public
19:56:07 [SimonCox]
meeting: DCAT team 2018-04-18
19:57:43 [NicholasCar]
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19:57:50 [NicholasCar]
present+
19:58:47 [NicholasCar]
Morning, can hear but will limit speach - sleeping kids
19:59:33 [PWinstanley]
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19:59:51 [PWinstanley]
present+
19:59:55 [SimonCox]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.04.18
20:01:17 [SimonCox]
regrets: Alejandra
20:01:21 [SimonCox]
present+
20:01:53 [SimonCox]
regrets: Makx
20:03:18 [DaveBrowning]
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20:04:16 [riccardoAlbertoni]
riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
20:05:16 [DaveBrowning]
present+
20:05:59 [SimonCox]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.04.18
20:06:43 [riccardoAlbertoni]
present+
20:06:59 [roba]
roba has joined #dxwgdcat
20:07:08 [SimonCox]
Problem with webex DaveBrowning ?
20:08:19 [DaveBrowning]
Will join soon
20:08:28 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
stijn_goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwgdcat
20:08:39 [roba]
present+
20:08:43 [NicholasCar]
https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/114
20:09:02 [NicholasCar]
issue above is license/ODRL
20:09:02 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:09:45 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
present+
20:10:05 [PWinstanley]
scribe: PWinstanley
20:10:30 [SimonCox]
topic: confirm agenda
20:10:43 [SimonCox]
https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.04.18
20:11:49 [AndreaPerego]
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20:12:20 [SimonCox]
confirmed
20:12:35 [SimonCox]
Topic: approve minutes of last meeting
20:12:44 [SimonCox]
https://www.w3.org/2018/04/11-dxwgdcat-minutes
20:12:44 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
20:12:48 [AndreaPerego]
+1
20:12:51 [riccardoAlbertoni]
0 ( i was absent)
20:12:58 [DaveBrowning]
0 also absent
20:13:01 [SimonCox]
0 (absent)
20:13:06 [PWinstanley]
+1
20:13:10 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
+1
20:13:11 [NicholasCar]
+1
20:13:27 [PWinstanley]
resolved: approve minutes of last meeting
20:13:36 [SimonCox]
topic: licenses and rights
20:13:48 [SimonCox]
https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/114
20:14:12 [SimonCox]
https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/114#issuecomment-382298577
20:14:40 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: drawing attention to this topic of discussion. Makx providing clarification as per comments
20:15:55 [PWinstanley]
... in earlier conversations best practice would be to refer to existing, but we need to have the possibility of coping with new options and other elements that ODRL allows.
20:16:10 [NicholasCar]
q+
20:16:18 [PWinstanley]
... An informal use case has been added. Other contributions are welcomed
20:16:19 [SimonCox]
ack NicholasCar
20:17:05 [SimonCox]
Should we add odrl:hasPolicy as an additional property recommended for use on a dcat:Distribution?
20:17:08 [PWinstanley]
NicholasCar: is it sensible to have policy associations? Anything that retains flexibility is a good thing
20:17:55 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: OWL/RDFS constraints are not there, it is simply a recommendation
20:18:16 [PWinstanley]
... but do we formally include ODRL as a suggestion in the spec?
20:18:28 [PWinstanley]
NicholasCar: I think that is helpful
20:18:34 [SimonCox]
q?
20:18:40 [DaveBrowning]
q+
20:18:44 [AndreaPerego]
q+
20:19:10 [SimonCox]
ack DaveBrowning
20:19:11 [PWinstanley]
... it is a useful pointer to developers/catalogue managers
20:20:27 [NicholasCar]
q+
20:20:31 [PWinstanley]
DaveBrowning: I agree with NicholasCar . ODRL provides scope for wide coverage within the publishing industry and provides economies of scale - it is a one-stop shop
20:20:31 [SimonCox]
ack AndreaPerego
20:20:38 [SimonCox]
q?
20:22:02 [roba]
if we need a machine readable validation around use of a recommended vocabulary then we have a formal profile..
20:22:08 [PWinstanley]
AndreaPerego: we need to clarify the use cases where ODRL is helpful. We already have dct:rights and others. I don't recall any use case not covered by the generic
20:22:49 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: we are aware that there is no documented use case and hence NicholasCar has added a full additional use case specifically using ODRL
20:22:57 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
q+ on licensing use case
20:23:03 [PWinstanley]
... there needs to be proper guidance in the doc
20:23:52 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
Andrea refers to the ODRS http://schema.theodi.org/odrs/
20:24:04 [PWinstanley]
AndreaPerego: We still need to discuss the the ODI vocabulary - ODRS
20:24:41 [PWinstanley]
... it is worth looking at this because they found a way to use a standard license and determine the text for the attribution.
20:24:54 [PWinstanley]
... this is dependent on the dataset that one is licensing
20:25:03 [SimonCox]
ack NicholasCar
20:25:10 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: AndreaPerego can you please add to #114
20:26:06 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
q- (also wanted to comment on attribution URL / attribution text)
20:26:15 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
q-
20:26:31 [PWinstanley]
NicholasCar: Am aware of ODRS. Have used. Next question is do we need both, or will ODRL do everything? I'm implementing a license register in a project and will have an ODRL test case in Linked Data using real data
20:27:13 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: It is premature to consider the agenda proposal but that conversation provided issues that we add to the discussion
20:27:25 [SimonCox]
topic: Consequences of expanded scope of dcat:Catalog
20:28:18 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: 2-3 weeks ago we agreed that DCAT would explicitly cover data services, but we haven't considered specific proposals for new properties
20:28:21 [SimonCox]
specific or general property for catalog contents - https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/116
20:28:44 [PWinstanley]
... a long thread on issue 116 is about the range of dcat:Dataset.
20:29:24 [PWinstanley]
... the dcat:dataset pred has been used to link to things that hitherto would not have been considered as datasets,
20:30:18 [PWinstanley]
... but we are proposing to extend the use of dcat:dataset so that one looks at the items to determine their class rather than inferring from the range
20:31:00 [SimonCox]
q?
20:31:04 [PWinstanley]
... Next step is to mint specific predicates for different catalogue contents
20:31:09 [NicholasCar]
q+
20:31:16 [SimonCox]
ack NicholasCar
20:31:43 [roba]
we can hear you nick
20:32:16 [PWinstanley]
NicholasCar: isn't this direct predicate minting against the qualified association pattern we are implementing elsewhere?
20:32:26 [PWinstanley]
... isnt' a generic approach better?
20:32:33 [SimonCox]
q?
20:32:38 [NicholasCar]
present-
20:33:20 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: when modelling the tension between generic and specific is always there. No 'right' answer. specific preds are there for 'important' relationships
20:33:47 [PWinstanley]
... The qualified association pattern requires a sideways look to determine the class
20:34:19 [roba]
q+
20:34:21 [AndreaPerego]
q+ to say that the two approaches (generic vs specific properties) are not mutually exclusive
20:34:33 [SimonCox]
ack roba
20:34:42 [PWinstanley]
... in this situation the name of the predicate is unsuitable for classes that are not datasets. If we are expanding to include services it makes sense to have a service-specific pred
20:34:59 [SimonCox]
Please see https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Cataloguing-data-services
20:35:28 [SimonCox]
q?
20:36:13 [roba]
wonders if we are we talking about data sets exposed by services - or data-less transformation services?
20:36:29 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: the 2nd diagram in the above wiki page shows the most common use case and the relations between the service and the datasets
20:36:30 [SimonCox]
q?
20:36:34 [SimonCox]
ack AndreaPerego
20:36:34 [Zakim]
AndreaPerego, you wanted to say that the two approaches (generic vs specific properties) are not mutually exclusive
20:38:06 [roba]
the proposal does not change the scope of dcat:dataset - it adds finer grained semantics around distribution
20:38:37 [PWinstanley]
AndreaPerego: we have an example taken from different context that include resources that are dcat:Dataset, but we also have events which can be either datasets or physical things like chemical samples.
20:38:54 [SimonCox]
q+
20:39:10 [PWinstanley]
... we need to leave the door open for diverse classes, so a generic property can help with this
20:39:13 [SimonCox]
ack Si
20:39:16 [SimonCox]
ack SimonCox
20:39:20 [roba]
but is a data access service a virtualised "set of datasets" ?
20:39:37 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: in some examples in the past AndreaPerego you used dc:terms?
20:39:49 [SimonCox]
dcterms:hasPart
20:39:53 [PWinstanley]
AndreaPerego: yes, because no other was available/suitable
20:40:14 [riccardoAlbertoni]
s\dc:terms\dcterms:hasPart
20:40:17 [PWinstanley]
... the point is that this predicate is overused and it has become ambiguous
20:40:40 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: it is from observiing that that the motivation for other predicates originated
20:41:19 [PWinstanley]
... we should allow ourselves to include other predicates than dcat:dataset
20:41:32 [SimonCox]
q?
20:41:36 [PWinstanley]
... and this means that we don't need to relax the range of this pred
20:41:48 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
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20:42:06 [PWinstanley]
... the thinking originates from observing what AndreaPerego has done before
20:42:23 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
Hello everybody, I am travelling with no reliable connection.
20:43:04 [PWinstanley]
... this list of predicates will be small in number (<5) but will be specific to the class
20:43:21 [SimonCox]
PROPOSED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed, and the DCAT backbone shall have specific properties for other types of resource included in a catalog (sub-properties of dct:hasPart)
20:43:25 [SimonCox]
q?
20:44:05 [SimonCox]
PROPOSED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed, and the DCAT backbone shall have specific membership predicates for other types of resource included in a catalog (sub-properties of dct:hasPart)
20:44:11 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
* Hi Andrea!
20:44:22 [AndreaPerego]
q+ to ask is this includes a possible super-property for them
20:44:33 [SimonCox]
ack AndreaPerego
20:44:33 [Zakim]
AndreaPerego, you wanted to ask is this includes a possible super-property for them
20:45:18 [SimonCox]
PROPOSED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed
20:45:21 [PWinstanley]
AndreaPerego: for clasrification - the proposal is for 5 props, or are these to be sub-props of a more generic super-prop?
20:45:22 [SimonCox]
issue #116
20:45:22 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:45:33 [riccardoAlbertoni]
+1
20:45:40 [PWinstanley]
s/clasrification /clarification /
20:45:59 [AndreaPerego]
+1
20:46:02 [SimonCox]
+1
20:46:04 [PWinstanley]
+1
20:46:10 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
+1
20:46:11 [DaveBrowning]
+1
20:46:13 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
+1
20:46:29 [roba]
dataservice as a subtype of dataset that has1+ service distributions and may have multiple other datasets exposed (finer grained semantics?)
20:46:50 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:46:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:46:54 [SimonCox]
so we can close https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/116
20:47:26 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:48:17 [PWinstanley]
roba: I think this comes down to finer grained semantics. I think services look like datasets
20:48:43 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: the boundary between serialised resources and services is blurred
20:49:23 [roba]
+1
20:49:40 [PWinstanley]
RESOLVED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed, and the DCAT backbone shall have specific membership predicates for other types of resource included in a catalog (sub-properties of dct:hasPart)
20:49:46 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:49:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:50:17 [SimonCox]
q?
20:50:30 [AndreaPerego]
chair: SimonCox
20:50:31 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:50:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:50:35 [SimonCox]
class and property for data distribution service https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/180
20:50:47 [PWinstanley]
Topic: issue 180
20:50:52 [roba]
so if a distribution was able to specify service type would this motivation still hold?
20:51:17 [SimonCox]
RESOLVED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed
20:51:23 [riccardoAlbertoni]
\me ok
20:51:51 [PWinstanley]
s/RESOLVED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed, and the DCAT backbone shall have specific membership predicates for other types of resource included in a catalog (sub-properties of dct:hasPart)/RESOLVED: the range of dcat:dataset shall not be relaxed/
20:52:35 [roba]
(note a subproperty of dcat:dataset where range is a subclass of Dataset meets the proposal)
20:52:55 [roba]
... that was my suggestion
20:53:07 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: roba please can you explain your vision in a diagram?
20:53:19 [SimonCox]
q?
20:53:20 [roba]
q+
20:53:21 [PWinstanley]
... then we can do a comparison
20:53:28 [SimonCox]
ack roba
20:53:41 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:53:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:54:14 [PWinstanley]
roba: going back to the original proposal - the one on the wiki page -- 2 classes, almost identical.
20:55:08 [roba]
ok
20:55:22 [roba]
so if a distribution was able to specify service type would this motivation still hold?
20:55:26 [SimonCox]
ACTION: RobA to make more detailed counter-proposal
20:55:26 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:55:32 [SimonCox]
q?
20:56:10 [roba]
especially if a sub-type of Dataset which is a collection of other datsets is also supported (i.e we have data set relationships)
20:56:24 [roba]
otherwise we may have multiple ways of doing this when those facilities are available
20:56:32 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: This goes back to the earlier part of the discussion - many solutions and we decide to give names to some properties and not others depending on the way the model is going to be used
20:56:52 [AndreaPerego]
@roba, yes it holds for me. The service itself won't be "hidden" into a distribution, but a standalone entity.
20:57:06 [PWinstanley]
... frm the discussion coming from AndreaPerego services needed to be first class objects in a data catalogue.
20:57:25 [PWinstanley]
... there might appear to be an implicit super class,
20:57:26 [roba]
@AndreaPerego - yes it still will be as a sube type of Dataset...
20:57:28 [AndreaPerego]
The distribution can be linked to the service, but it is the distribution itself.
20:57:43 [AndreaPerego]
s/but it is the distribution itself/but it is not the distribution itself/
20:57:54 [PWinstanley]
... we might be mixing the abstractions in the background with requirements in the foreground.
20:58:08 [SimonCox]
q?
20:58:09 [riccardoAlbertoni]
q+
20:58:11 [roba]
yes an implicit superclass would help but changes the range of dcat:dataset :-(
20:58:21 [PWinstanley]
... the diagram might be showing only a part view of the requirements, with some components not shown
20:59:15 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
Dear all, before this meeting ends - I started to include Øystein's proposals like here: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/56#issuecomment-382467602
20:59:33 [PWinstanley]
I have lost audio
20:59:53 [roba]
anyway - I'm pointing out what looks like an antipattern in the model, and missing consideration of the implications of service types in distribution semantics - i would rather see this discussed when those facilities are on the table
21:01:43 [PWinstanley]
riccardoAlbertoni: the services are not only ones exposing data, they can be other types. In this case it is perhaps better not to use a subclass. It would be reasonable to have class specialisation if they are services exposing data, but a DCAT catalogue can include other kinds of services
21:02:18 [PWinstanley]
... it is not a matter of object orientation, it is a matter of what the classes represent
21:02:18 [roba]
@riccardoAlbertoni I agree - but i would model it differently if thats the case... we perhaps need a superclass or "mix-in" for generic catalog entry metadata
21:02:20 [SimonCox_]
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21:02:45 [PWinstanley]
SimonCox: this discussion needs to be continued next week
21:02:48 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:02:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:03:09 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to riccardoAlbertoni
21:03:11 [AndreaPerego]
RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/18-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:03:41 [PWinstanley]
bye
21:03:41 [riccardoAlbertoni]
bye
21:03:46 [stijn_goedertier_AIV]
thanks all
21:03:47 [Jaroslav_Pullmann]
bye!