15:00:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:00:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/04/06-pbgsc-irc
15:00:30 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:00:30 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee Telco
15:00:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:00:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:00:51 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
15:00:51 <ivan> Chair: Luc
15:00:54 <ivan> present+
15:01:35 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:01:56 <dauwhe> Luc: regrets for next PBG meeting
15:02:10 <dauwhe> Garth: there's some confusion on when these meetings happen
15:02:29 <dauwhe> Luc: yes, I wanted to raise this point
15:03:02 <dauwhe> ... and having meetings for both euro and asia times
15:03:24 <dauwhe> ... we could do Asia time every three meetings
15:03:39 <dauwhe> ... others could be noon US
15:03:59 <dauwhe> liismk: every fourth meeting--every two months we have an APAC-timed meeting
15:04:10 <dauwhe> garth: should we have a meeting at all due to LBF?
15:04:15 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbgsc
15:04:25 <laudrain> Present+
15:04:50 <dauwhe> liismk: with LBF next week, and an ISO meeting already
15:04:59 <dauwhe> luc: ISO call is on Monday
15:05:38 <dauwhe> garth: we could do call on the 17th if we want
15:05:53 <dauwhe> liismk: the cadence was to make the PBG meetings after the SC meetings
15:06:10 <dauwhe> ... so the question is should we go ahead even though attendence might be sparse
15:06:23 <dauwhe> luc: not sure if there will be conclusions from ISO discussion on Monday
15:06:28 <dauwhe> ivan: I'm sure it won't :)
15:06:41 <dauwhe> ... but on Monday we perhaps can outline the alternatives
15:06:49 <dauwhe> ... and the choice should be made by the larger group
15:07:08 <dauwhe> Luc: the idea is that the meeting would result in action items for each option
15:07:31 <dauwhe> present+ George
15:07:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the discussion should be via email with all the members, not just people who called in
15:08:11 <liismk> present+
15:08:14 <dauwhe> George: on Monday, I hope we eliminate some of the five options
15:08:18 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
15:08:18 <Zakim> Present: Bill_Kasdorf, dauwhe, ivan, laudrain, George, liismk
15:08:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see laudrain, Bill_Kasdorf, RRSAgent, Zakim, liismk, ivan, dauwhe, Karen
15:08:37 <dauwhe> ... and we hope some options diverge further down the road
15:08:42 <dauwhe> ... 3.2 is needed no matter what
15:08:57 <dauwhe> ... so I think we can get further down the path
15:09:08 <ivan> present+ daihei
15:09:29 <dauwhe> laudrain: do we still set up a PBG meeting on Tuesday?
15:09:37 <dauwhe> liismk: ???
15:09:48 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't want to postpone a meeting. it's confusing.
15:10:09 <dauwhe> ... keep to the regular schedule
15:10:17 <dauwhe> Garth: the coming meetings would be (list of dates)
15:10:32 <dauwhe> ... when do we want to do the first Asia-time meeting?
15:10:40 <dauwhe> ... April 10 would be Noon EDT
15:10:56 <dauwhe> Luc: I would propose May 8 for the first APAC meeting
15:11:03 <dauwhe> liismk: 7PM EDT
15:11:14 <dauwhe> Garth: every 4th meeting is APAC time, right?
15:11:24 <dauwhe> ... I'll work with the calendar and send invitations
15:11:34 <dauwhe> Luc: I put dates in my 3/28 email
15:12:42 <dauwhe> ... I checked with Laurent; he said we can use the EDRLab conference line for the APAC-timed calls
15:13:01 <dauwhe> liismk: for this meeting, the SC meeting, Bill and Rick have reported not having this on the calendar
15:13:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's confusing because of my transitional state
15:13:30 <dauwhe> Garth: this one should be in people's calendars
15:13:43 <dauwhe> ivan: it is in my calendar
15:14:45 <dauwhe> liismk: anything to report on 3.2?
15:15:19 <dauwhe> garth: Matt is engaged, things are happening on Github
15:15:29 <dauwhe> dauwhe: CG is having a call next Thursday
15:16:51 <dauwhe> laudrain: I've started to review PWG infoset for WP, and my first PR of my life :)
15:17:20 <dauwhe> ivan: that discussion should be somewhere else
15:17:27 <dauwhe> laudrain: it should be an issue?
15:17:29 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
15:17:46 <dauwhe> laudrain: I have other questions about the existing text, but I can make them issue
15:17:50 <dauwhe> ... s
15:18:11 <dauwhe> liismk: we have report from ISO, we have a report on scheduling meetings, we have a 3.2 update
15:18:19 <dauwhe> ... what else should we talk about?
15:19:03 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: while the initiative sounded straightforward, it became a more daunting task. So only five people are signed up so far.
15:19:36 <dauwhe> ivan: Daihei, you had a discussion with BIllM about the workshop in Japan
15:19:48 <dauwhe> Daihei: there will be a meeting next week
15:20:01 <dauwhe> ... Bill M's email issues and the responses, they will discuss that
15:20:11 <dauwhe> ... I have all the information, and I can share the outcome
15:20:26 <dauwhe> ivan: this would be a good topic for the APAC-time call
15:20:31 <dauwhe> ... the workshop will be in tokyo
15:20:42 <dauwhe> ... so it will be mostly people from East Asia
15:20:55 <dauwhe> Daihei: when is that call?
15:20:58 <dauwhe> ivan: May 8
15:21:15 <dauwhe> ... by then, hopefully BillM will get this through W3M (W3C management)
15:21:48 <dauwhe> Daihei: My only concern is that it may conflict with holidays
15:22:06 <dauwhe> ... OK. We can discuss then, and I can share any updates I get before then
15:22:27 <dauwhe> George: I posted an invitation for people to crowdsource testing of reading systems, and I can report on the fabulous response
15:22:33 <dauwhe> liismk: yes please!
15:22:47 <dauwhe> ... who is responding?
15:22:57 <dauwhe> George: individuals, companys in the a11y field...
15:23:10 <dauwhe> ... a lot in the US and Canada, but also asia, australia, and europe
15:23:17 <dauwhe> ... I think I have 45 right now!
15:23:32 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: what about epubcheck?
15:23:41 <dauwhe> ivan: tzviya has been on vacation for the whole week
15:24:02 <dauwhe> liismk: Tzviya and BillM are on holiday, so there's been no progress on the RFP or the funding
15:24:14 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: do we have a pricing structure, tiered pricing?
15:24:29 <dauwhe> liismk: we haven't nailed this down yet
15:24:41 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: RFP is for developers?
15:24:42 <dauwhe> liismk: yes
15:24:52 <dauwhe> ... one thing we could do on Tuesday is
15:25:15 <dauwhe> ... starting to get top five lists of things to fix in epubcheck
15:25:28 <dauwhe> ... we could get that both from reading systems and from publishers/content creators
15:25:53 <dauwhe> ... Tzviya and I have put in some requirements
15:25:58 <dauwhe> ... one of them has escalated
15:26:12 <dauwhe> ... we have wanted to indicate that an image is historical
15:26:18 <dauwhe> ... this could be useful for a11y
15:26:32 <dauwhe> ... if you have limited sight, it could be useful to know something is blurry
15:26:41 <dauwhe> ... and now one RS wants reading-system-specific tagging
15:26:49 <dauwhe> ... and we don't want that
15:26:58 <dauwhe> ... this is an opportunity for a lovely trade
15:27:18 <dauwhe> ... I convinced Amazon yesterday to respect aria-roles and epub:type
15:27:29 <dauwhe> ... but I don't have something for that
15:27:36 <dauwhe> garth: epub:type="blurry"
15:28:04 <dauwhe> laudrain: there are discussions about role being only for a11y, and epub:type is for semantic structure
15:28:24 <dauwhe> ... it may be that Ace in the future checks that the role for image is on image tag
15:29:05 <dauwhe> ... you can't put cover role on section because it overrides the native sectioning role
15:29:11 <dauwhe> ... things are complicated
15:29:35 <dauwhe> ... we need structural semantics for publishing
15:29:41 <dauwhe> ... a11y rules are different
15:29:49 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I was going to bring up a related question
15:30:00 <dauwhe> ... people are saying because @role is for a11y
15:30:15 <dauwhe> ... nobody uses epub:type; it has no results in implementations
15:30:27 <dauwhe> ... so they're saying don't use epub:type
15:30:35 <dauwhe> garth: footnotes are done with epub:type
15:30:40 <dauwhe> ... apple and google do that
15:30:59 <dauwhe> ivan: epub:type cannot work with HTML5 html serialization
15:31:08 <dauwhe> ... we will have to find a long-term solution
15:31:18 <dauwhe> ... is there something on the F2F agenda?
15:31:32 <dauwhe> ... whatever we do there, I don't think the current group is chartered for that
15:31:55 <dauwhe> ... we need changes to HTML, a new attribute with standard values
15:33:14 <dauwhe> .... we either need to have @role available for semantics, or a new attribute
15:33:24 <dauwhe> ... but epub:type can't outlive EPUB 3
15:33:41 <dauwhe> laudrain: We do need a way to preserve semantics
15:33:51 <dauwhe> ivan: this community needs to make the point
15:34:09 <dauwhe> ... there is a strong need for a community to extend HTML
15:34:16 <dauwhe> ... there are tools, techniques, ways
15:34:23 <dauwhe> ... it's fuzzy what's valid and what isn't
15:34:41 <dauwhe> ... that whole issue of extending HTML is of interest to many communities
15:34:50 <dauwhe> ... if the BG worked on this, or something...
15:35:00 <dauwhe> ... this has been on my mind for a long tie
15:35:04 <dauwhe> s/tie/time/
15:35:21 <dauwhe> ... this community needs structural information that's not tied to ARIA
15:35:45 <dauwhe> ... the brower manufacturers, we can't expect them to solve all the miseries of the world
15:36:04 <dauwhe> ... so some decentralization is needed
15:36:32 <dauwhe> liismk: I need somethign short-term
15:36:49 <dauwhe> ... so we may need something retailer-specific
15:37:06 <dauwhe> ivan: in parallel to that, if the BG came up with clear and strong business needs
15:37:29 <dauwhe> ... that were well-documented, that would help a lot
15:37:39 <dauwhe> ... "we need it" is not good enough
15:38:07 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: scholarly publishing has universal vocabs, but there's a giant case for it
15:38:28 <dauwhe> ivan: if the BG could come up with a document with the business cases on what is needed in how
15:38:33 <dauwhe> ... that could be a starting point
15:38:41 <dauwhe> q+
15:38:53 <dauwhe> liismk: we'll try to get some buy-in on Tuesday
15:39:07 <dauwhe> laudrain: yes, this is on the F2F agenda
15:39:19 <dauwhe> ivan: we won't be in position to do too much in the working group
15:39:29 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and there won't be any scholars there due to SSP
15:39:36 <dauwhe> ???: Wiley will be there
15:39:40 <laudrain> ack Dave
15:40:31 <dauwhe> dauwhe: if we brought this up in WICG, they'd just tell us to use something, and see if it gets traction
15:40:38 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, but we do need the arguments too
15:40:50 <dauwhe> ... it has to be well documented
15:40:59 <laudrain> q?
15:41:03 <dauwhe> liismk: the other thing I want to raise
15:41:04 <dauwhe> ack dauwhe
15:41:22 <dauwhe> ... what is the shortlist of epub:type and aria role values we expect reading systems to support
15:41:36 <dauwhe> George: should we also be talking about how that support is manifested?
15:41:41 <dauwhe> dauwhe: yes
15:41:45 <dauwhe> laudrain: what do you mean?
15:41:58 <dauwhe> George: if you have semantics that this is a glossary
15:42:17 <dauwhe> ... you go to the back of the book you have a heading "glossary". what does the reading system do?
15:42:58 <dauwhe> liismk: there's no consistency
15:43:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the behaviour can be controlled by HTML markup
15:43:37 <dauwhe> George: if I want a hot key to go to the glossary, you want to use the semantics to take you to the glossary
15:44:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: you want to go to a term
15:44:12 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
15:44:21 <dauwhe> George: sometimes I want to just go to the glossary itself
15:44:47 <dauwhe> ivan: let's not solve the issue now
15:45:05 <dauwhe> liismk: discussing this at a business level helps
15:45:25 <dauwhe> ... and it helps focus the requirements-gathering so it is more tangible
15:46:02 <dauwhe> ... it would be easier if we knew what people want to make things more consistent
15:46:10 <dauwhe> ... sounds like we have a good agenda
15:46:20 <dauwhe> laudrain: any other business?
15:46:47 <dauwhe> Garth: complicated calendar stuff
15:47:04 <dauwhe> ivan: stupid computers are stupid :)
15:48:45 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pbgsc
15:48:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/04/06-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan