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15:51:54 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:51:54 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:51:54 <ivan> Date: 2018-03-26
15:51:54 <ivan> Regrets+ George, rkwright, vlad
15:51:54 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Mar/0087.html
15:51:55 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-03-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Mar/0087.html
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16:02:51 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Any new members?"
16:03:17 <NickRuffilo> Adam Cisco: "i'm new on the call - I'm a representative of NASA / data sciences."
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16:03:50 <Teenya> Present+
16:03:50 <George> present+ George
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16:04:24 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "I hope you've looked at the newbie document - we have docs on how to get started and new member orientation.  Feel free to reach out if you have questions."
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16:04:43 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minu5-tes/2018/2018-03-12-minutes
16:04:57 <mattg> present+
16:04:58 <ivan> RESOLVED: Last minutes approved
16:04:59 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Any comments on the minutes from last week?  Approved
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16:05:20 <ivan> Topic: EPUB3.2 update
16:05:22 <NickRuffilo> ...: Garth - I'm going to swap the agenda so that we can do the epub 3.2 update first, then you're free.
16:05:54 <garth> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r2RbLipc5VY3vUp_iuPak3oaNxI5BF9gJ5s-98qsmEY/edit?ts=5ab433a9#
16:06:11 <dauwhe> All the fun is on GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/publ-epub-revision/issues
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16:06:40 <clapierre> present+
16:06:45 <NickRuffilo> Garth: It's a quick update.  The short version is that epub 3.2 work is starting in earnest - officially - as a community group.  The process that went on for that was the proposal relative to the technical aspects and justification.  That was discussed as a framework taskforce of the publishing business group and a direction for doing an epub 3.2 - which is a recast of 3.1 to being fully backwards
16:06:45 <NickRuffilo> compatible.  Thats the direction the business group wanted to see the working group to do.  That is progressing.
16:07:16 <dauwhe> http://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-spec.html
16:07:16 <tzviya> q?
16:07:47 <NickRuffilo> ...: The document (link) i pasted is the blueprint.  We're off and running.  The exact relevance to the publishing working group is unclear - but they're going to get to a 4.0 some day.  This is removing one incompatible step from the classic epub group and where we are.  If there are questions, I'll attempt to answer
16:07:49 <Hadrien> q+
16:07:51 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Comments?
16:07:53 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:07:55 <Evan_Owens> What is the likely time when finished?
16:08:20 <NickRuffilo> hadrien: I was wondering - is there an expectation of a path between 3.2 and 4?  I know we don't know what epub 4 looks like.  But, the infoset, the ability to convert?  Anything?
16:08:31 <dauwhe> q+
16:09:11 <Evan_Owens> q+
16:09:20 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:09:23 <NickRuffilo> Garth: I wouldn't say 'plan' but the idea is to do 3.2 quickly to solve compatibility then a plan to ISO standardization and do the epubcheck.  There is interest in the interest group - as we start defining epub 4 - a path from the classic epub world that is not that bumpy is a goal.  If that means there is an epub 3.3 that is backwards and helps with forward, thats a possibility
16:09:47 <tzviya> q?
16:09:53 <Hadrien> q+
16:09:56 <tzviya> ack Evan_Owens
16:09:59 <NickRuffilo> Dave: As much as it would be lovely to have a clear path from 3.2 to 4 - our concerns are not driven by the future, but by the present, so I don't think there is going to be much influence from web publications or concern about that to fit into the existing ecosystem.
16:10:01 <laudrain> +1 to Dave
16:10:11 <NickRuffilo> Evan: Is there a projection as to when 3.2 will be done and public?
16:10:49 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:10:52 <NickRuffilo> Garth: We're making good progress.  My strong goal is to talk substantiatively about it by the publishing summit in May in Berlin.  I wouldn't claim that as done, and I don't know the process to a Community Group Note - but measured in months and not years.
16:11:05 <NickRuffilo> Evan: Should we tell publishers late summer/next fall it can be implemented?
16:11:15 <ivan> regrets+ jasmine
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16:11:20 <garth> q?
16:11:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
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16:11:36 <NickRuffilo> Dave: We'll know more about timing over the course of the next few weeks.  We have a CG call april 12th where we'll talk more about the process and how much work is left.  I'm trying to avoid overpromising here.
16:11:46 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:11:56 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: This is just an update.  If you're interested in the work, join the CG.
16:12:33 <garth> q?
16:12:47 <ivan> q+
16:13:04 <NickRuffilo> Hadrien: I think it's clear that this is a pragmatic update - epubcheck, and solving pressing problems with epub 3 in general - but I'm wondering for this group, if there will be any impact on our work for epub4?  We know the infoset might be different from WP and PWP - making sure an extension might represent items in epub 3 but not yet in WP.  I'm not sure we've discussed, but any gap between
16:13:04 <NickRuffilo> 3 and 4 should be discussed as early as possible even if we don't have a clear view of what epub 4 is of yet.
16:13:30 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:13:32 <NickRuffilo> Garth: Another point along those lines is that there will be little changes in the infoset.  That is a thing that is known in epub3 land.  Knowing how that extends into our manifest is important.
16:13:48 <laudrain> q+
16:13:50 <NickRuffilo> Bill: Just a quick comment - as to what to tell publishers.  Another important message is that its OK to do 3.0.1
16:13:50 <garth> q?
16:13:50 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:14:58 <tzviya> ack laudrain
16:15:02 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Back to Hadrien - I think it's worth considering the epub metadata when we talk about WP and information items.  We didn't do that until now really, but when it comes up, thinking back of what was there - we know the format will be different, but conceptually we should try to get there.  More specifically, this would be a good item for the face-to-face meeting on this issue.  I think the
16:15:02 <NickRuffilo> F2F meeting agenda is still coming up today.  Maybe it's worth thinking about a short session on this.
16:15:28 <NickRuffilo> Luc: Without epub check, there is no use of 3.2  We could say to publishers to support the effort of having epubcheck validate 3.2
16:15:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Any other comments?
16:16:25 <ivan> Topic: DPUB ARIA Errata
16:16:31 <NickRuffilo> ...: The next item is DPUB aria errata.
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16:17:02 <NickRuffilo> ...: We've spoken about updating DPUB aria a few times, and when we ask people what they want to see, we've gotten no requests other then some basic errata changes.
16:17:51 <NickRuffilo> ...: Matt will post a link to our very simple errata - some typos, code corrections, but from the point it doesn't look like we'll be doign any significant updates, so ARIA 1.1 will be simple errata.  I have a feeling this wasn't supposed to be on the agenda.  Unless someone has comments, we'll move on.
16:18:12 <ivan> Topic: Updates and deliverables prior to F2F
16:18:15 <NickRuffilo> ...: Next item, lets' dicsuss updates and deliverables prior to the F2F.
16:18:30 <mattg> DPUB-ARIA issues: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues (note some are already closed)
16:18:48 <ivan> s/dicsuss/discuss/
16:19:11 <NickRuffilo> ...: I see there's a link to some github issues.  This is relevant to the affordances TF.  Romain and Benjamin if you can give a quick update on the WAM taskforce.
16:19:18 <ivan> Subtopic: WAM Taksforce?
16:19:59 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/projects/3
16:22:00 <NickRuffilo> Benjamin: We had a good first meeting.  I have a project #3, which I can fish up a link - where we started sorting WAM related topics and trying to work them down to a set of tasks to pass on to the WAM spec task force.  Some items are new in the pipeline.  Possibly things in the discussion face.  Not sure who would be the ones to address each item.  We are still discussing items and determining
16:22:00 <NickRuffilo> actions.  Once we have something specific to ask to the WAM team, we will put together a group and propose the right requests.  That way we are more organized and aren't wasting our time with the group.  Handled elsewhere are things usually handled by other specs or may be addressed by our spec, but are not going to become WAM requests.  Extract smaller issues are bucket issues that we can put
16:22:00 <NickRuffilo> into the list if need be.
16:22:15 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Is there anything you need from the larger group?
16:22:52 <NickRuffilo> Benjamin: We have an eye on the affordances group - we want to see if they identify anything that needs to be accepted. If there are implementors here, they might want to join the taskforce.
16:22:57 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: When is your next call?
16:23:27 <NickRuffilo> Benjamin: Not yet scheduled, sometime after the first week of april.  I would guess 2nd or 3rd week of April.  At least 1 more before the F2F, possibly 2.
16:23:30 <ivan> q+
16:23:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:23:45 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: What is our timing with this before the F2F?
16:24:10 <NickRuffilo> ...: The taskforce and it's output.  Having a call in 2-3 weeks is a pretty big gap...  Since the telco we had, not much has happened.
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16:24:51 <NickRuffilo> Benjamin: a large majority of the TF was at a conference last week, so we'll get back in the saddle this week.  Do much more work on Github and email.  I'm out in April, not sure Romain's schedule, but we're going to push forward.
16:25:04 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We have a chair's call this week and we'll get a better idea where we're headed.
16:25:15 <ivan> Subtopic: affordances TF
16:26:40 <mateus> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances
16:26:42 <NickRuffilo> Mateus: We held our first call March 16th.  It was a good meeting, productive.  We went over the working document that Jasmine and I put together.  We identified a few different work items with a deadline - March 31st.  The first item of business - Jung is looking at the template for how to classify an affordance.  We are looking at all the issues we have on github and we want a system way to
16:26:42 <NickRuffilo> classify each affordance.  I'll follow up on that as I haven't seen the progress yet.  The other order of business is continue comment and review of the other affordances document.
16:27:47 <NickRuffilo> ...: Anyone who wants to review and comment, please do so.  The intent is to classify those according to the template in early april.  Gather the technical requirements and working with Ivan and Matt to start drafting some part of the spec and have that going before the F2F.  Beginning of april have the template.  Through april, do that classification work, then in may do some writing for the F2F.
16:27:53 <ivan> q+
16:28:10 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:28:10 <NickRuffilo> ...: We also need to set up a recurring call so that we can have a touchbase.  We want to have a call every 2 weeks.
16:28:52 <NickRuffilo> ivan: There was one discussion that did happen last week - Jun and I went through what was an affordance.  It would be worth looking at that.
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16:29:31 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/143
16:29:58 <NickRuffilo> ...: We cleaned up some issues and in #143, we discussed some meta-issues
16:30:03 <tzviya> q?
16:30:31 <NickRuffilo> Mateus: Any additional feedback would be great.
16:30:50 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/F2F/2018.05.Toronto
16:31:27 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit
16:31:34 <ivan> Topic: F2F meeting
16:32:03 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Lets turn to logistics for a moment about the F2F.  We have our face-to-face page on our website (link above).  Thank you Wendy for information about the Hyatt.  In our google doc there is information about discounted booking.  The google doc has other info as well.  If you have not already told us you were coming, please do so.  We have a loose agenda, but suggestions for session topics
16:32:03 <NickRuffilo> are welcome.  What came up earlier today?
16:32:14 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Relationship to epub 3
16:32:31 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I've heard notice that booking is not available.
16:32:42 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: It worked for a while, as I made a booking.
16:32:48 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: but Romain is not able to now.
16:33:21 <tzviya> q?
16:33:53 <NickRuffilo> ...: If we just have these items, we ahve a pretty full agenda.  Any topic could go on for a long time, but we'll make sure things move on.  If you want to propose post-event activities, please do.
16:34:38 <laudrain> +++
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16:35:14 <bendugas> POUTINE
16:35:44 <ivan> Topic: next week
16:36:00 <ivan> q+
16:36:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:36:08 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Next week no meeting due to lots of other events.
16:36:18 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I'd love to get an update on ebookcraft
16:36:28 <dkaplan3> q=
16:36:30 <dkaplan3> q+
16:36:35 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: What was interesting in toronto.. Anyone wish to speak?
16:37:00 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
16:37:06 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:37:15 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: I will say that alot of people gave schpeles about why people should join working groups.  Lots of people are part of small publishers that are not members and likely cannot afford to become members.  But there was lots of advertisements for the group.
16:37:42 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I was on a call.  There were lots of day-to-day workers and lots who were, and everyone wanted to get involved in standards.  It was exciting to see.
16:37:45 <ivan> q+
16:37:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:37:52 <NickRuffilo> ...: And lots of stuff about accessibility.
16:38:10 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Anything that was said during the talks that has an immediate affect on the technical work we do?
16:40:01 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: I think lots of the talks were - us...  Alot of the more - the edge of the talks that affect us are those who work with us already.  One thing that came from the talks of those who are not involved is that people have a very adobe-focused workflow and they just want things to work or do what they expect.  They are excited about ARIA, but they use adobe and they want things to work, or
16:40:01 <NickRuffilo> they use something different and the workflow is very simple.  They were interested in what we had to say, but the talks/attendees were focused more on what their toolsets can do.  What they really wanted were tools that did what we were telling them about.
16:41:12 <pkra> *waves*
16:41:32 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I think people were really wowed when they saw a tool that would help them enter the accessibility metadata.  Some things I learned about that I didn't know was how SVG could be done for images and equations.  I learned a bit about the details of accesibility that I didn't know about...  There was a big discussion about diversity..
16:41:36 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: In which dimension?
16:41:57 <pkra> Not just IT.
16:42:07 <bendugas> also diversity of material being published by big houses and the disconnect with their output and the audiences out there
16:42:09 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Women, People of Color, etc...
16:42:14 <pkra> not just publishing-IT.
16:42:23 <NickRuffilo> ...: Dave and jiminey blew our minds with some CSS tricks...
16:42:26 <George> George can talk about CSUN
16:42:33 <NickRuffilo> Dave: And how reading system's hacky pagination ruin everything...
16:42:35 <dkaplan3> lee & Low did a great survey on diversity a few years ago (U.S. centric) https://www.leeandlow.com/about-us/the-diversity-baseline-survey
16:43:35 <bendugas> q+
16:44:34 <NickRuffilo> George: (talking about CSUN) It was a busy week.  I heard more about how great epub was last week than I've ever heard before.  We're seeing changes in attitudes from disabled student's offices about epub.  we still hear that you have to 'goto page' and things like that.  There was alot of buzz about authoring epub and how it can be done by professors - instead of PDF.  Amy Mason did a session on
16:44:34 <NickRuffilo> evaluating the various tools out there.  Didn't look like there was anything that really made it easy for people to make epubs.  That was a big discussion items.  Plenty of work to do.  Met with Amazon - they publically stated that reflowable epub as ingestion is terrific for them, we hope to work more with them on that.  That's an off-the-cuff summary.
16:44:36 <NickRuffilo> q+
16:44:41 <tzviya> ack bendugas
16:44:59 <pkra> More volume!
16:45:37 <pkra> might be a different mic being picked up.
16:45:40 <tzviya> q?
16:46:01 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
16:46:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:46:53 <bendugas> 1. seeing a lot of momentum on accessibilty, specs and implementation, seems much easier to get attention and effort for things internally (at Kobo) than it had been in the past
16:47:07 <tzviya> +1, bendugas
16:47:10 <NickRuffilo> Nick: Why is epub authoring difficult?
16:47:36 <clapierre> Microsoft hear this loud and clear!  They are looking into it :)
16:48:29 <bendugas> 2. for the F2F if anyone has suggestions for people at Kobo they want us to bring in let me know. There might be teams/people that would be interesting to you that I wouldn't have thought of. Customer care, UX, Big Data etc. We don't want to derail the event but want to take advantage of being able to provide access to people at Kobo.
16:49:05 <dkaplan3> q+
16:49:08 <dkaplan3> q-
16:49:22 <dkaplan3> Pandoc came up at ebookcraft as well
16:49:26 <dkaplan3> there was a presentation on it
16:49:28 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:49:32 <NickRuffilo> George: People want to go from word -> epub.  Amazon has easy indie authoring from word.  We've talked to Microsoft.  There was a discussion of iBookAuthor.  GoogleDocs (some critisism of the quality of the output).  Pages was said to be pretty good.  New licensing with ebook author.  The desire to import an unprotected epub, adding descriptions and saving it again was something that was wanted
16:49:32 <NickRuffilo> .  Sigil was mentioned, but it's not accessible to blind people.  There's been a pretty good healthy discussion about the use of pandoc.  It does alot of the things you need to do.  There was a little bit of an add... You would have to go into Sigil first...  There was not a clean and easy mechanism to get there...
16:49:56 <bendugas> 3. if anyone has general Toronto questions on how to make the most of their time let me know. I know the city pretty well at this point. Whatever your into I'll have a suggestion or should be able to find someone else who does.
16:50:15 <clapierre> Bloom is not creating accessible EPUBs yet but is on their radar, used in a number of 3rd world countries.
16:50:22 <NickRuffilo> Bill - there are two sides:  Authoring to epub, and converting to epub.  the DSS options are really unaware of epub.  BISG has a taskforce that's working on trying to address all of these problems.  The tool to create it and remediate it are two different use cases
16:50:23 <NickRuffilo> q+
16:50:27 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
16:51:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/options/offices
16:51:40 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Anyone else at CSUN that wanted to comment?
16:51:50 <clapierre> CSUN next year March 11-15
16:51:55 <NickRuffilo> ...: Choosing between ebookcraft and CSUN is always hard...  OK - any other comments?
16:52:16 <pkra> bye.
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16:52:56 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/26-pwg-minutes.html ivan