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12:50:50 <mateus> present+
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12:57:33 <mateus> https://goo.gl/mTxMDL
12:58:15 <ivan> present+ jasmine, George, Ivan, wolfgang, mateus
12:58:29 <ivan> Meeting: Affordances' Task Force call
12:58:56 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: google doc for work: https://goo.gl/mTxMDL
12:59:32 <Avneesh> present+
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13:00:32 <tzviya> present+
13:00:36 <George> present+ George
13:00:47 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
13:01:16 <Franco_Alvarado> present+
13:01:17 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
13:02:09 <ivan> present+ Katie
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13:03:32 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BEiBAB-RU2FK2_3XZKUERfFi-nGwwFrMFvKe08e0-QQ/edit?usp=sharing
13:03:49 <tzviya> chair: mateus
13:03:54 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya
13:04:10 <tzviya> mateus: overview of our work, identify goals
13:04:31 <tzviya> ...Affordances apply to UX that is surfaced to a user in any context
13:04:56 <ivan> present+ matt
13:04:59 <tzviya> ...our goal is to identify the experiences and formalize the requirements and frame them in a technical way
13:05:25 <mattg> mattg has joined #pwgatf
13:05:32 <tzviya> It is possible that we will kick some work back to the WG to integrate into the spec.
13:05:44 <tzviya> ...We hope to have something for F2F in May.
13:06:08 <tzviya> Mateus: We need participation from all communities (UAs, users, authors, publishers)
13:06:16 <Ryladog> q+
13:06:32 <ivan> present+ Ryladog
13:06:46 <tzviya> present+ Jasmine
13:07:14 <tzviya> ...participation from non-technical people who are familiar with user needs is very helpful
13:07:31 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #pwgatf
13:07:37 <tzviya> ack Ryladog
13:07:43 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
13:07:48 <ivan> q+
13:07:51 <tzviya> Ryladog: It sounds like we are talking about use cases
13:07:58 <Avneesh> q+
13:08:05 <ivan> q-
13:08:17 <ivan> q+
13:08:24 <tzviya> mateus: We are talking the WPUB UCR as a starting point, but also the expectations of the user
13:08:39 <tzviya> Ryladog: We are taking the existing use cases?
13:08:55 <tzviya> mateus: We are also looking at how Packaged use cases might differ
13:09:13 <tzviya> ...the use cases might not be comprehensive, and we are not sure which can be speced
13:09:42 <tzviya> DPUB IG published https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/
13:09:54 <ivan> present+ bigbluehat
13:10:21 <tzviya> q?
13:10:25 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
13:10:56 <tzviya> Avneesh: do we need to decide which issues should be provided by UA and which should be provided by WP?
13:11:22 <tzviya> mateus: we discussed this months ago, and we had to wait until manifests and metadata to settle
13:12:02 <tzviya> ...for the purpose of this group, I think we should focus on use cases and then make the decision with the whole WG in the context of metadata/manifest
13:12:53 <tzviya> q?
13:13:04 <mateus> ack ivan
13:13:41 <jasmineMulliken> Use case document: https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/
13:13:59 <tzviya> ivan: We have to be careful to separate use cases from what is in WP document, which will include a technical description of what we would like to see happen
13:14:26 <tzviya> ...example -I would like to be able to search through the whole publication, which can be bound back to several use cases
13:14:52 <mateus> Related to ivan's comment: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/143
13:14:52 <George> q+
13:14:58 <Ryladog> q+
13:15:00 <tzviya> ...the question is what do we have to do for each affordance and what are normative requirements
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13:15:41 <Avneesh> It would be good to have a template aith one or two examples
13:15:54 <wolfgang> s/aith/with/
13:15:59 <mateus> ack George
13:16:13 <tzviya> george: so we are specifying UA behavior?
13:16:18 <bigbluehat> q+
13:16:43 <tzviya> mateus: yes, but we also need to identify what a WP needs to provide in order for that behavior to happen
13:16:55 <bigbluehat> q-
13:16:56 <ivan> +1 to George
13:17:03 <Hadrien> present+
13:17:06 <mateus> ack Ryladog
13:17:12 <bigbluehat> q+
13:17:36 <tzviya> Ryladog: We are talking about the capabilities that have to be available to the publication and the UA has to support?
13:17:39 <tzviya> mateus: Yes
13:18:12 <tzviya> ...and we need to identify what we can actually write as a spec. Some of these might be more along the lines of guidelines and best practices.
13:18:47 <mateus> ack bigbluehat
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13:19:17 <tzviya> bigbluehat: example of affordances: HTML affords hypermedia (links & forms) and the browser provides the features needed to interact with them
13:21:17 <ivan> scribenick: bigbluehat
13:21:45 <bigbluehat> mateus: thank you for the affordance summary bigbluehat. the distinction between features and affordances is helpful
13:21:55 <bigbluehat> ...and the fact that UA's use the affordance to enable features is useful
13:22:05 <bigbluehat> ...Going back to the google doc https://goo.gl/mTxMDL
13:22:14 <bigbluehat> ...I'd like to be clear about the scope of our
13:22:22 <bigbluehat> ...so that we don't have to deal with scope creep
13:22:45 <bigbluehat> ...we're only focused on affordances that have a pathway to features in the UA via the specification track
13:23:01 <bigbluehat> ...we shouldn't take on affordance related issues that might be enabled by other standards or other WGs
13:23:15 <bigbluehat> ...that's something we'll have to take into account on a case by case basis
13:23:58 <bigbluehat> ...accessibility and personalization are both things that may have affordance needs
13:24:26 <bigbluehat> ...but they will also need to have related features in UAs to enable them as accessible features, etc.
13:24:37 <wolfgang> q+
13:24:39 <bigbluehat> ...does that sound relatively straight forward?
13:24:49 <zheng_xu> q+
13:24:50 <bigbluehat> ack wolfgang
13:24:52 <mateus> ack wolfgang
13:25:14 <bigbluehat> wolfgang: as George mentioned there is a data aspect on the part of the publicatio
13:25:38 <bigbluehat> ...but you need some hooks in your data for the UA to offer some feature
13:25:49 <bigbluehat> ...do we see those as data requirements?
13:26:06 <bigbluehat> ...we need to express that these affordances have a pathway to the features we want in the UA
13:26:17 <bigbluehat> mateus: yes. we need to define and clarify these pathways
13:26:31 <bigbluehat> ...I'm going to need help from the wider group who have more of a technical background than I do
13:26:51 <bigbluehat> ...certainly we need to clarify that these are spec-able and not just recommendations
13:26:57 <mateus> ack zheng_xu
13:26:57 <bigbluehat> ack zheng_xu
13:27:09 <wolfgang> s/publicatio/publication/
13:27:13 <bigbluehat> zheng_xu: are we looking toward testing?
13:27:18 <ivan> q+
13:27:20 <bigbluehat> mateus: yes. that sounds useful
13:27:25 <bigbluehat> ivan: can I add a quick comment?
13:27:26 <mateus> ack ivan
13:27:53 <bigbluehat> ...it's useful, but we have to be careful that we only test normative things from a spec perspective
13:28:05 <bigbluehat> ...and that some of these things will be expressed as non-normative things
13:28:45 <bigbluehat> zheng_xu: I wonder should we also work with some other WGs such as CSS
13:28:53 <bigbluehat> ...about some of these issues we may have?
13:29:08 <bigbluehat> mateus: I don't think that item is about limiting what we can do
13:29:19 <bigbluehat> ...so much as proactively looking for the things that are in some other WG's domain
13:29:33 <bigbluehat> ...but we'd still want to monitor the progress, etc, if we need those things done
13:29:44 <bigbluehat> ...we need to filter out what we can do vs. what we can't
13:29:51 <bigbluehat> zheng_xu: my second question about personalization
13:29:54 <bigbluehat> ...it's a pretty wide space
13:30:02 <bigbluehat> ...I hope we can define what we want to do here
13:30:29 <bigbluehat> Ryladog: is that one of the bigger issues we discuss on Monday? tzviya?
13:30:55 <bigbluehat> ...it's #138
13:30:57 <ivan> s/Ryladog/Jasmine/
13:31:13 <jasmineMulliken> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/138
13:31:44 <bigbluehat> mateus: it is more complicated than it seems
13:31:56 <bigbluehat> ...and we need to be very focused on the accessibility issues
13:31:57 <ivan> s/Jasmine/jasmineMulliken/
13:32:09 <bigbluehat> ...and it's great that we have people who can help us navigate that as part of this group
13:32:30 <mateus> q?
13:32:33 <bigbluehat> zheng_xu: we need to both enable vendor options as well as work for interoperable personalization across vendors
13:32:43 <bigbluehat> mateus: looks like the queue is empty
13:32:48 <bigbluehat> ...so let's move on to work items
13:33:06 <mateus> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances
13:33:13 <bigbluehat> ...let's look at this list as a starting point
13:33:23 <bigbluehat> ...this will take you to all the topic:afordances labeled issues
13:33:36 <bigbluehat> ...we need to go through this list and put them through our filtering
13:33:41 <bigbluehat> ...to find an implementation pathway
13:33:47 <bigbluehat> ...and what things we might need to let go of
13:33:55 <bigbluehat> ...or pass on to some other WG to do
13:34:07 <bigbluehat> ...and ivan made a "propose closing" label to help move things along the process
13:34:13 <bigbluehat> ...so let's start there
13:34:49 <zheng_xu> Katie I think?
13:34:54 <bigbluehat> ???: there are a few of these like reading order which I'd be happy to take
13:35:08 <bigbluehat> s/???/Katie
13:35:15 <bigbluehat> s/Katie I think?//
13:35:28 <bigbluehat> mateus: if you're able and ready to take on some of these, by all means!
13:35:45 <mateus> https://www.w3.org/TR/pwp-ucr/
13:35:50 <bigbluehat> ...the next item is really reviewing the use cases
13:35:57 <bigbluehat> ...and matching the against our issues
13:36:16 <bigbluehat> ...this document really outlines what we hope to enable with a Web Publication
13:36:25 <bigbluehat> ...it is very helpful to find our list of requirements or expectations
13:36:34 <tzviya> Josh Pyle and Laurent LeMeur are responsible for keeping the UCR up to date
13:36:40 <bigbluehat> ...so besides our GitHub issues list, may we also reconsider this use case document
13:36:57 <ivan> q+
13:37:06 <bigbluehat> ...additionally we may also need to make some of these part of PWP
13:37:13 <bigbluehat> ...or that are better done there than within just WP
13:37:24 <bigbluehat> ...again, our primary focus is on affordances for WP
13:37:34 <bigbluehat> ...so I'd suggest we focus there first
13:37:43 <mateus> ack ivan
13:37:45 <bigbluehat> ivan: so. first of all, yes for your last comment
13:38:11 <bigbluehat> ...for those who look over the use case doc to make links to whichever affordances we are considering
13:38:28 <bigbluehat> ...at the end of the day it would be great that for each affordance we make explicit reference to each of the requirements
13:38:35 <bigbluehat> ...and explain how it's backed up by these use cases
13:38:52 <bigbluehat> ...the more we keep that as part of our process, the easier it will be at the end
13:39:12 <bigbluehat> ...for the time being, just make not somewhere--in the issue or somewhere--then later Matt and I can work out getting it into the text
13:39:23 <bigbluehat> jasmineMulliken: yeah. I think that's a great idea.
13:39:36 <bigbluehat> mateus: great. that will definitely help use clarify these affordances
13:39:46 <mateus> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/143
13:39:48 <bigbluehat> ...let's go after issue #143
13:40:31 <bigbluehat> ...we should also correspond this one to the use case requirements (UCRs)
13:40:40 <bigbluehat> ...it seems we should get on with this one sooner rather than later
13:40:54 <tzviya> +1
13:40:55 <bigbluehat> ...and then we can use that template going forward
13:41:18 <bigbluehat> ...I'd ask that all of us take a look at this #143
13:41:30 <bigbluehat> ...as it will greatly help our progress on the other issues
13:41:53 <bigbluehat> ...once we start clarifying some of the issues on GitHub, then we'll start forming them into this template
13:42:08 <bigbluehat> ...and run it through some other filters such as data requirements and making sure there's a pathway to implementation
13:44:43 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat: I'd not slow down on serialization discussions, but do define what the general data needs are to get to the end-goal feature (via the affordance)
13:44:57 <ivan> q+
13:45:06 <bigbluehat> ...for instance treating a WP as a collection of documents is part of affording search and progression
13:45:17 <bigbluehat> mateus: I do think we may need to add parts into the template about that
13:45:19 <mateus> ack ivan
13:45:28 <bigbluehat> ivan: one more sort of warning to ourselves
13:45:42 <bigbluehat> ...we should not solve all the miseries of the world in the coming 2 months
13:45:52 <bigbluehat> ...we need to have a first viable product soon
13:45:59 <bigbluehat> ...so 80% of the needs perhaps
13:46:07 <bigbluehat> ...there will always be a 20% who will be unhappy
13:46:12 <bigbluehat> ...at the present time, we should live with that
13:46:46 <bigbluehat> ...we really don't want to get carried away by discussions--and it's very easy to do that
13:46:49 <bigbluehat> ...for all of us
13:47:22 <bigbluehat> mateus: agreed we do need to avoid scope creep
13:47:37 <bigbluehat> ...for the template discussion, I can send a follow-up email
13:47:44 <bigbluehat> ivan: email or issues comments?
13:47:51 <bigbluehat> mateus: I'll do issue comments to keep things together
13:48:28 <bigbluehat> ...can anyone take that item?
13:48:36 <bigbluehat> zheng_xu: yes. I think I can do that
13:48:49 <bigbluehat> mateus: thank you. let's aim for the end of March for that
13:48:57 <bigbluehat> ...we don't have anyone looking at the UCR doc atm
13:49:19 <bigbluehat> Ryladog: I can do it, but I'm not sure what you want out of it
13:49:30 <tzviya> q+
13:49:47 <bigbluehat> mateus: yeah. it doesn't have to be done before the template is ready
13:49:57 <mateus> ack tzviya
13:49:59 <bigbluehat> ...but if we can get some discussion done while that's being ready
13:50:09 <bigbluehat> ...then we can do some writing after March
13:50:18 <bigbluehat> tzviya: I did much of the UCR to issue mapping already
13:50:45 <tzviya> Laurent and Josh Pyle
13:50:48 <bigbluehat> ...Josh Pyle and Laurent are keeping UCR things up to date
13:50:57 <ivan> Agenda: https://goo.gl/mTxMDL
13:51:18 <bigbluehat> tzviya: it also looks like David Wood is back to active
13:51:23 <bigbluehat> ...and he can probably help here
13:52:16 <bigbluehat> mateus: those are all the work items we've identified so far
13:52:26 <bigbluehat> ...if anyone thinks of anything else, we can set something up for a future call as well
13:52:36 <bigbluehat> ...for the meantime, let's keep things on GitHub and use email for side discussions
13:52:57 <ivan> q+
13:53:09 <bigbluehat> jasmineMulliken: don't wait on the template to be done before you comment on the issues
13:53:20 <bigbluehat> Ryladog: so find categories to help describe the issues?
13:53:42 <bigbluehat> jasmineMulliken: yes. so find categories like "normative" and "non-normative" etc.
13:53:47 <mateus> ack ivan
13:53:53 <bigbluehat> ...we don't have to wait on the template to have our discussions and organize things
13:54:08 <bigbluehat> ivan: in my practice it's very helpful to have a fixed day/time for these meetings
13:54:24 <bigbluehat> ...it's late for jasmineMulliken
13:54:34 <bigbluehat> ...and if we move it though, then Avneesh runs into time issues
13:54:45 <bigbluehat> ...Friday a bit later than now is still doable for both ends so to say
13:55:13 <bigbluehat> mateus: one of the problems for this month is loads of conferences this month and next
13:55:44 <bigbluehat> ...I'll be sure to get something on the calendar and get it out with plenty of advance notice
13:55:53 <bigbluehat> ivan: I'll get these minutes up to our website
13:56:12 <bigbluehat> ...you can try and do it on the github
13:56:17 <bigbluehat> tzviya: yeah. it's not that magical
13:56:24 <bigbluehat> ...ivan is the only one who can clean up the minutes
13:56:28 <bigbluehat> ivan: it's my job
13:56:34 <bigbluehat> mateus: bye all!
13:56:38 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:56:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/16-pwgatf-minutes.html ivan
13:56:57 <ivan> zakim, bye
13:56:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been mateus, jasmine, George, Ivan, wolfgang, Avneesh, tzviya, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Franco_Alvarado, matt, Ryladog, Benjamin_Young,
13:56:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwgatf
13:57:00 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, Hadrien