14:00:02 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:00:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-irc 14:00:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:00:05 Zakim has joined #tt 14:00:07 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:00:07 Date: 15 March 2018 14:00:11 Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-irc 14:00:15 Present: Nigel 14:00:20 Regrets: Pierre, Cyril 14:00:47 Chair: Nigel 14:00:50 scribe: nigel 14:02:05 Present+ Andreas 14:03:32 Present+ Glenn 14:04:36 atai2 has joined #tt 14:06:25 Topic: This meeting 14:06:49 Nigel: Let's do what we can today given the unusually low attendance. 14:07:40 .. We have very little on the agenda today, just the following that I'm aware of: 14:07:48 .. TTML1 3rd Ed CR transition request 14:07:57 .. The two open actions on tracker for TTML2. 14:08:03 .. Anything else? 14:08:15 Glenn: I'd like to look at ttml2#696 14:08:38 Topic: TTML1 CR 14:08:54 Nigel: Referring back to the resolution we made 2 weeks ago, to request transition of 14:09:13 .. TTML1 to CR after merging the open pull requests, the review period ends now, so the 14:09:26 .. decision is final, and I will go ahead and make the transition request based on the 14:09:54 .. version on the TTML1-3ED-CR1 branch, viewable at https://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml1/TTML1-3ED-CR1-build/index.html 14:10:10 .. In the absence of Thierry right now, I'll do that after the meeting. 14:10:40 Topic: TTML2 Actions 14:10:47 Action-443? 14:10:47 Action-443 -- Glenn Adams to Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib. -- due 2016-08-26 -- OPEN 14:10:47 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/443 14:11:45 Glenn: I still don't think it would be a bad idea to do that, I just don't have the wherewithal 14:12:01 .. to do it, so we could either close it and defer it for the future or assign it to someone else. 14:12:20 .. It may be that as TTML2 gets closer to Rec I might have time to do it, but in terms of 14:12:30 .. communicating the work that we've done to communicate the work we've done to support 14:12:45 .. Japanese to ARIB would be the proper thing to do. 14:14:01 Nigel: It would be timely to do this now since we are in CR and interested in implementation 14:14:16 .. work, and ARIB members are possible implementers. 14:14:21 Glenn: OK, leave it with me. 14:14:55 ACTION-443: WG reviewed this and will attempt to satisfy it during CR1 14:14:55 Notes added to ACTION-443 Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib.. 14:15:23 Nigel: I've updated the due date to end of April. 14:15:32 Action-462? 14:15:32 Action-462 -- Glenn Adams to Create issue on ttml2 to add "mapping from other versions and profiles of ttml" -- due 2016-04-28 -- OPEN 14:15:32 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/462 14:16:26 Nigel: The question in my mind here is: has this been overtaken by events? 14:16:42 Glenn: I think putting this kind of information is putting the cart before the horse. The 14:16:58 .. mapping of profiles should be put into updates to the profiles. 14:17:47 .. We have listed substantive changes since TTML1 already. 14:17:59 Nigel: What about mapping to make a TTML2 document instance from a TTML1 document instance? 14:18:09 Glenn: That's easy, it's a no-op. 14:18:17 Nigel: Because we haven't prohibited anything from TTML1, right? 14:18:56 Glenn: Yes, we've deprecated a few things, that's about it. 14:19:09 .. If we obsolete anything then we should do something here. 14:19:50 Nigel: Looking back on the minutes from when we originally raised this action, there was 14:20:05 .. a query about mapping from smpte:backgroundImage to the TTML2 image element. 14:20:19 .. In fact that is already noted in TTML2 and more detail is in IMSC 1.1. So I think there is 14:20:25 .. no remaining action needed here. 14:20:37 Glenn: For me the potential action would be for SMPTE to update their spec to refer to 14:20:54 .. IMSC 1.1 or paraphrase it. Not for TTML to go back and reference SMPTE-TT. 14:22:09 ACTION-462: Discussed in WG meeting today, overtaken by events and no longer needed. 14:22:09 Notes added to ACTION-462 Create issue on ttml2 to add "mapping from other versions and profiles of ttml". 14:22:12 close action-462 14:22:12 Closed action-462. 14:23:00 Topic: TTML2 Add CR1 upload package ttml2#696 (pull request) 14:23:25 Glenn: After this is merged I'm willing to create a release task, and make a release containing 14:23:40 .. the artefacts, pointing to gh-pages. I still want to upload the tar file, which is consistent 14:23:52 .. with what we did in the past in both TTML2 and TTML1. I haven't looked at gh-pages to 14:23:58 .. see if there are other files. 14:27:31 Nigel: This is a technical point - we could achieve the same goal by tagging the gh-pages branch with a release. 14:28:43 Glenn: I'm suggesting merging this pull request and then I can also add a release based on 14:28:47 .. the gh-pages branch. 14:28:51 Nigel: Ok, I'll approve. 14:29:12 Glenn: Thank you, I'll go ahead and create an artefacts release when the build has completed. 14:30:24 Topic: TTML2 Implementation report 14:30:38 Glenn: Since one was necessary to put into the CR SOTD I created a template as a starting point 14:30:58 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/TTML2ImplementationReport TTML2 Implementation Report 14:31:16 Glenn: I've added the new features and have started putting the implementations in. 14:31:26 .. I expect the entries to change as I verify each one over the next month. 14:31:38 .. I'm also discussing this with Netflix and they will be adding their entries as well to new 14:31:46 .. columns, so I'll coordinate with Cyril on that. 14:31:57 Nigel: I'll add what we have especially for the audio features from BBC. 14:32:39 .. I think I'll ask Thierry to style this to look more like what an implementation report 14:32:44 .. normally looks like. 14:32:53 Glenn: I'd like to discuss it before we do that. 14:34:03 glenn has joined #tt 14:34:24 Nigel: For an example of another one, see https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_0_1_Implementation_Report 14:34:38 .. We can't really claim anything in the implementation report until we have tests. 14:35:20 Glenn: I don't think so, we used the features as a list and solicited input from implementers 14:35:32 .. on whether they implemented it or not. We did not tie specific tests to specific features, 14:35:36 .. at least during that process. 14:35:48 rrsagent, make minutes 14:35:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 14:36:45 https://www.w3.org/2006/DFXP/DFXP-implementation-result.html 14:38:00 -> https://www.w3.org/2009/05/dfxp-results.html TTML 1.0 Test results 14:39:18 Nigel: That link above is what you get to when you click on Implementation Report in the 14:39:31 .. SOTD from TTML1 first edition PR https://www.w3.org/TR/2010/PR-ttaf1-dfxp-20100914/ 14:39:45 Glenn: I don't recall the discussion of this in the group at the time. I think we threw it over 14:40:34 .. to Thierry to create whatever documents were needed to meet the Process. 14:40:51 Nigel: I've not seen any W3C CRs whose implementation reports did not refer to tests. 14:41:12 Glenn: We will be making a lot of tests available. We use features to identify implementable 14:41:24 .. support so we need to tie the features to tests as you suggest. 14:41:31 Nigel: One feature to one or more tests, yes. 14:41:47 Glenn: Either we can integrate those into the same table, for example with tests corresponding 14:41:58 .. to each feature. I'm concerned about the need to correlate tests to feature designations. 14:42:06 Nigel: I agree that we would need to do that. 14:42:20 Glenn: As long as we can do that, I'm happy with that. The current proposed table does 14:42:26 .. not include that information so we need to add it somehow. 14:42:28 Nigel: I agree. 14:42:41 Glenn: One way would be to have a second table that maps features to tests, and then we 14:42:52 .. could also have pass/fail type entries for the implementations in there. Then the feature 14:43:51 .. based one would be a summary of the test one. 14:44:09 Nigel: Seems too complex to me. They can just go in one table. 14:44:14 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report IMSC 1 Implementation Report 14:44:32 Nigel: The IMSC 1 one does that to some extent, though again like the TTML1 implementation report, 14:44:40 .. it does not explicitly list the feature designators. 14:45:36 .. It does include heading rows linking back to a part of the spec. 14:45:47 Glenn: What I want to get back to is a claim by the implementor that specific features are 14:45:52 .. supported. 14:46:29 .. This IMSC 1 table doesn't map the tests to features so you might hypothetically pass the test 14:46:42 .. but not fully support a feature, and then abort processing as a result. 14:47:04 .. In the TTV test suite I have a test called ttml2-valid-all-styles that has every style that is 14:47:22 .. defined in TTML2 that is new. If I were to list that in a table like that here, then it would 14:47:28 .. map to 20-30 features. 14:47:53 Nigel: Agreed, it isn't useful in this context, though it may be useful in its own right. 14:48:05 .. You might need to split it up into one style per feature. 14:48:21 Glenn: Making a judgement about which features are needed for each test might be tricky. 14:48:43 Nigel: Agreed, each test is dependent on a number of features. 14:49:28 .. If you had a single test that checks for support for all the mandatory features, that could 14:49:33 .. be a good basis to begin with. 14:49:54 Andreas: It could be overkill to list all the features for every test. If a test were to fail, how 14:50:12 .. would you discover exactly which feature was not supported properly. There's an endless 14:50:21 .. list of features that are depended on - XML itself for example! 14:51:39 Glenn: It has never been the explicit requirement that testing is needed to demonstrate 14:51:51 .. interoperability to transition to PR - the implementation is there to demonstrate 14:51:54 .. implementability. 14:52:00 Nigel: That's true in the Process: 14:52:10 -> https://www.w3.org/2018/Process-20180201/#rec-pr Transition to Proposed Rec 14:52:22 Glenn: I would like to follow our history and demonstrate implementability as opposed to 14:52:35 .. interoperability, but we need to have everyone on the same page, since you and maybe Pierre 14:52:39 .. had some different views. 14:53:51 Nigel: That's true. It would be crazy to attempt to test every possible permutation of combinations 14:54:04 .. of features. Right now I'm expecting 2 tests per feature, one that is valid and demonstrates 14:54:15 .. a useful behaviour related to the feature, and one that is invalid and causes a validating 14:54:27 .. processor to issue an error. This is from our exit criteria. 14:54:42 Glenn: I think I agree with that. We will submit three categories of test for adoption and use. 14:54:57 .. I had asked a question to the group about where ESH_additions came from in TTML1 14:55:16 Nigel: I don't know. What is in Mercurial too? 14:55:32 Glenn: I couldn't find a record in the history from Mercurial to indicate where it came from. 14:55:48 .. Inside the files in that directory, some were labelled W3C test material, others designated 14:56:03 .. as copyright Microsoft. There's one that was completely bogus, and had microsoft labelling 14:56:21 .. in it, which makes me nervous, which has a "test" on profile, with a features element 14:56:44 .. that used a syntactic style similar to how we do tts:styles, with a bunch of tts attributes 14:56:57 .. the value of which was broken or optional. It was broken compared to the actual syntax 14:57:15 .. and the label on it made me worried that someone had actually implemented something like that. 14:57:30 Nigel: Do we need to worry about it? 14:57:39 Glenn: We need to remove the directory because people might think it is part of the TTML1 14:57:55 .. test suite. I'd like you Nigel maybe to at least preliminarily take an action to ask if we 14:58:05 .. should remove it and find out what the provenance of it is. 14:58:11 Nigel: Ok I'll do that. 15:00:07 atai2 has left #tt 15:00:13 Topic: Meeting close 15:00:30 Nigel: We're out of agenda so I'll close the meeting now. Thank you! [adjourns meeting] 15:00:35 rrsagent, make minutes 15:00:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:02:37 tmichel has joined #tt 15:08:11 sorry Nigel I have missed the call, didn't realize he shift of time 15:18:41 sorry I back two woek since two days drowned with hundreds of emails to catchup 15:19:02 and yesterday was in meeting all day. 15:40:38 s/sorry Nigel I have missed the call, didn't realize he shift of time/ 15:40:44 s/sorry I back two woek since two days drowned with hundreds of emails to catchup/ 15:40:51 s/and yesterday was in meeting all day./ 15:40:58 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:41:02 rrsagent, make minutes 15:41:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:06:05 Zakim has left #tt