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16:14:45 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:14:45 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:14:45 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:14:45 <ivan> Date: 2018-02-26
16:14:45 <ivan> Regrets+ jbuehler, tcole, wolfgang
16:14:45 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0166.html
16:14:46 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-02-26: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0166.html
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17:01:24 <NickRuffilo> scribenick: nickruffilo
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17:02:53 <NickRuffilo> Mike Goodman: I'm working for a subsidiary of Wiley.  I'm relatively new to publishing and interested in what you are doing from a security perspective.
17:03:03 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I believe Bill K had volunteered you to write about security.
17:03:13 <NickRuffilo> Mike G: Oh.
17:03:20 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
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17:03:25 <NickRuffilo> Bill: Hmm.  I guess I did that...
17:03:32 <Hadrien> present+
17:04:20 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-02-12-minutes
17:04:25 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Last week's minutes - any comments?
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17:04:44 <NickRuffilo> ...: Minutes approved
17:05:01 <ivan> RESOLVED: Meeting of last week approved
17:05:06 <laurentlemeur> present+ laurent
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17:05:09 <ivan> s/last week/of two weeks ago/
17:05:21 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances
17:05:23 <ivan> Topic: affordances
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17:06:57 <tzviya> q?
17:07:01 <NickRuffilo> ...: Next topic is affordances.  In the last few weeks, we have opened a number of issues on the topics of affordances.  Just a few minutes ago there were 2 people - Mateus and Jasmine - the taskforce will make sure we have all our affordances documents - and that everything is written in the documentation.  One issue is that it may not in the final version of the doc, but for the time being, it
17:07:01 <NickRuffilo> will be in github or the webpub documentation as we need to have placeholders for this.  There are probably 10 issues around affordances for now.  We have topics ranging from guided navigation to offline as well as a definition for affordances.
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17:07:10 <ivan> q+
17:07:19 <NickRuffilo> ...: this could be a full topic or we could wait until the taskforce is put together.
17:07:22 <tzviya> ack ivan
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17:07:34 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/143
17:08:23 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: what I think should be clarified, is something I put as an issue a while ago - 143, i think we need to agree on a template for how we handle affordances.  What do we expect to be in the document.  There were some comments from Romain, and that is something that should be clarified first, then we can go on to the individual efforts.
17:08:23 <mateus> +1 to ivan
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17:08:56 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/143#issuecomment-366787610
17:09:08 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Excellent point.  Glad you pointed that issue # out.  That's exactly the point.  In 143 we talk about how affordances should be handled.  Ivan and I agree with Romain in his comments.  If we can come to consensus around that point, we're headed in the right direction.
17:09:14 <tzviya> q?
17:09:22 <Avneesh> q+
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17:10:16 <ivan> q+
17:10:30 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:10:31 <dkaplan3> we can put in "follows WCAG"
17:10:32 <NickRuffilo> George: "The details of the affordances - and I'm pretty sure something like the content of the HTML is being presented to the end-user, but, from an accessibility perspective, the ability to precieve the information is just part of WCAG - and I think it's something we can assume, but I know how to spell assume and the problems that come along with it.  We don't have to put in something that
17:10:32 <NickRuffilo> fundamental into our affordances, correct?
17:11:23 <tzviya> q?
17:11:24 <NickRuffilo> Avneesh: I think there are alot of accessibility issues, so I'd like to join the taskforce.  Many issues are debatable - such as navigation.  Next page/previous page should be identified.  But it would be the UA responsibility, but we should discuss it on the calls and have the accessibility task for available.
17:11:27 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:12:52 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I think we have to be very careful to look only at affordances that are publication specific.  The fact that the content of the HTML must be accessible - that should be considered as a given because it's already defined, and it should be true on all of the affordances.  Such as the affordance of being able to search for text in a document - since this is around in every browser.  But the
17:12:53 <NickRuffilo> fact that we want a search through the entire publication, that is a new affordance only related to publication.
17:13:17 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Worth going back to the document we wrote before about the whole publication as a unified document/whole.
17:13:30 <tzviya> q?
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17:13:47 <ivan> Topic: WAM
17:14:03 <NickRuffilo> ...: The WAM (web app manifest) taskforce is also new.
17:14:47 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0172.html
17:14:52 <NickRuffilo> Ben: The WAM task force is focused on narrowing down what - if anything - needs to be added to the WAM and the systems for reading them.  Romain sent a note about it last week.  If you're interested in that space or the implementation, we'd love to have your input.  If you're a browser-vendor, you're required.
17:14:58 <George> George heading to another standards call. Bye.
17:15:01 <ivan> q+
17:15:04 <tzviya> ack ivan
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17:15:24 <dauwhe> s/Ben:/bigbluehat:/
17:15:42 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I think an important point will be to have a number of issues we submit to the relevant documents/working groups.  That is something that should come out of the WAM group.
17:15:54 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: 'open and track issues on the WAM repository' that is the goal.
17:16:10 <ivan> q+
17:16:21 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:16:51 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: The question is whether this task force is exclusively on WAM or will they morph into a task force that will come up with a first proposal of a JSON serialization we are looking for.
17:17:05 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Good question - perhaps we should see how it plays out and give it time.
17:17:56 <ivan> q+
17:18:04 <NickRuffilo> Bigbluehat: Some of it is around determining what things SHOULD go into a WAM, but what can actually get over that fence in an acceptable way - and what may need to be serialized somewhere else.  it's first about what can be requested to add to WAM, but we are not coming with the full pallet of the infoset and assuming the WAM is the place - but to figure out what makes sense, and then work our
17:18:04 <NickRuffilo> way trhough our list and see what else might need to go where.
17:18:20 <Rachel_> s/trhough/through
17:18:38 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I spoke with Romain and Benjamin, one issue we spoke about was about the information in the web IDL not being manifested in the DOM.  This task force will discuss that issue and what to do with it.
17:18:41 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:19:04 <rdeltour> q+
17:19:12 <bigbluehat> q+
17:19:51 <laurentlemeur> q+
17:19:51 <tzviya> ack rdeltour
17:19:51 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: That is one question, and the way I see the WAM - we can add to it whatever we want, in terms of JSON syntax, we are allowed to do that.  That isn't the problem.  There are some things we would inherit and use because they are close to what we want, but we may want them to be more percise (direction, internationalization of titles) but there are some other features that we need and we would
17:19:51 <NickRuffilo> just add them.  I don't see that really as a problem.
17:20:57 <NickRuffilo> Romain: I think for the taskforce we should be very practical and look at the WAM and not consider everything around the WAM.  One objective of the task force is to identify what doesn't go into the WAM as much as identifying what does go into the WAM.  If we identify things that are not a good fit for WAM - then we would not necessarily have to shoehorn it into the WAM.
17:21:04 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:21:14 <dkaplan3> +1 for moving these conversations to the task force
17:21:24 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
17:21:27 <NickRuffilo> Bigbluehat: Romain said most of what I wanted to say - but that is the approach the TF plans to take.  If you want to join, we'd love to have you.
17:22:17 <NickRuffilo> Laurant: If the reading system doesn't know what to do with this manifest adapted from the WAM, we need to have a discussion and see where to go next.
17:22:26 <bigbluehat> q+
17:22:40 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: When we spoke to the WAM people in the past, they weren't interested in discussion until we had a list of very technical things to discuss.
17:22:44 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
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17:23:02 <rdeltour> +1 to what tzviya said
17:23:22 <timCole> present+
17:23:41 <ivan> q+
17:23:51 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:23:52 <NickRuffilo> Bigbluehat: The WAM authors and browser vendors want very specific requests as to what we want to iterate on.  They don't have interest in blue-sky-ing it.  They want concrete items.  So far we have given them concepts and they don't want that.  the TF is about defining the specific requests.
17:24:42 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: Probably it's worth involving the TAG as early as possible.  They might be good to bring in early, as they can help us acting as go-betweens since they are not tied to the TAG.  The comments we got from the TAG were in this direction.
17:25:08 <rdeltour> +1, liaison with TAG is also stated as a goal of the WAM TF (when relevant)
17:25:54 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Some of the questions are - is the WAM the right place, how can they be displayed visually, and if not, do they get placed in WAM, etc.  So there is some tension about putting things in the WAM.  You have content that is also metadata - so what do we do about it.  It would be great if you joined the taskforce.
17:26:20 <ivan> Topic: industry feedback for FPWD
17:26:37 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0169.html
17:26:44 <NickRuffilo> ...: Next topic - industry feedback from first public working draft.  Brady sent an email that was very interesting.  Anything to add to that?
17:27:00 <dkaplan3> q+
17:27:03 <ivan> see also https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/150
17:27:04 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
17:27:17 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:27:17 <dkaplan3> hang on
17:28:14 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: I was curious about the feedback that Brady sent where they said: "why are there no accessibility details because some of the things Ivan said were about keeping it high-level.  I was wondering about that feedback, given that concious choice to leave it vague.  Or is this not the time to mention?
17:28:33 <Avneesh> q+
17:28:49 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: I don't think we left it' vague, but it was very early, and some accessibility - such as treatment of the publication as a whole, so we'll have to make some of those points, we just didn't do it in the working draft as there was nothing to say yet.
17:28:50 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
17:29:23 <NickRuffilo> Avneesh: we have to figure out the basic details first.  How is the TOC handled, the reading order, only then the things can begin.  We don't know what the basic structure is, so we don't know the accessibility requirements.
17:29:34 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: so good feedback, but we don't need to worry about right now.
17:30:08 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: I put it into an issue - This kind of response should be there and copied.  It should be documented.
17:30:12 <tzviya> q?
17:30:51 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: It's not too late to ask for feedback.  we still don't have some of the sections written - lots of holes in our documentation.  We have not heard from all of the reading systems.  We've heard from readium, but not many of the others.
17:31:23 <NickRuffilo> ...: It was in the last several agendas.  The more feedback we get, the better
17:31:45 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kY6NJs5s28S2uXfcB55IdTSAPTnbMeP4rVVajdCaQBc/edit?usp=sharing
17:32:01 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/F2F/2018.05.Toronto
17:32:02 <ivan> q+ for an agenda item
17:32:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:32:06 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to discuss an agenda item
17:32:08 <NickRuffilo> ...: The only other agenda item is the may face-to-face meeting.  Is Wendy on the call?
17:32:24 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/142
17:32:29 <bendugas> Wendy is not but Jeff and I from Kobo are
17:33:22 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: There is a pull request that has been on the pull request list for a while.  I put it in as a closure of a longer discussion we've had on one item.  We need information in the document as part of the infoset.  I haven't recieved any comments on it, and I think it's in line with what we've discussed.
17:33:35 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: dave - if you could review, that'd be great.
17:33:41 <NickRuffilo> Dave: I can review...
17:33:54 <bendugas> Wendy mentioned this morning she had some follow up to do with local hotels and has enlisted the services of our executive assistance team who know more about booking things than we do
17:34:30 <bigbluehat> q+
17:34:34 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:34:37 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Any questions on that?  Please review the pull request
17:34:59 <NickRuffilo> Bigbluehat: It strikes me that this reading progression is very 'affordancy' but it assumes an interface that goes left-to-right and not a scrolling one.
17:35:40 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: the only thing the pull request has is that it should be part of the infoset.
17:36:27 <ivan> Topic: F2F meeting
17:36:37 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/F2F/2018.05.Toronto
17:37:15 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We have not had much discussion on the F2F but it's coming up.  Linked is the prelim information.  Ivan has started a google doc of topics and planning.  There was a bit of a snafu with the hotels that wendy was working on.  Wendy was working on getting a count of hotels.  Do we have any more information on that?
17:38:01 <bendugas> sorry
17:38:04 <bendugas> nothing to add today
17:38:11 <bendugas> but I'll chat with Wendy
17:39:09 <Evan_Owens> F2F meeting is same date as SSP Conf. so not able to attend F2F; sorry.
17:39:17 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: Ivan will post a link to his document.  Kobo has contact with hotels, but there is some issue with information sharing.  A count would be needed.  It would be helpful if we all stayed at the same hotel.  So we need to know if you are going and which hotel.
17:39:28 <ivan> Google doc document on charter draft and participants' list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit
17:39:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ditto for me.
17:39:49 <NickRuffilo> ...: On the website there are a number of options.  Which of these is closest to the office, Ben?
17:40:01 <bendugas> none are super close
17:40:04 <laurab__> None of the hotels are walking distance.
17:40:17 <bendugas> Kobo isn't downtown so all the hotels will be at least a 15-30 minute walk
17:40:19 <laurab__> Kobo is a little outside of the downtown core where most hotels are.
17:40:23 <dkaplan3> q+
17:40:27 <bendugas> easy access via transit or cabs though
17:40:30 <zheng_xu> The Gladstone is about 15 mins walk I think?
17:40:30 <tzviya> ack dkaplan3
17:40:33 <NickRuffilo> ...: Fill your name on the Google Doc.  Attendance is optional - we will try to set up call-in-information but sometimes it works, othertimes not
17:40:48 <laudrain> half an hour is a good walking distance in May
17:40:59 <laurab__> +1 dkaplan3
17:41:07 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: It would be really nice if the W3C had a scholarship fund that could pay for people who are invited experts...
17:42:00 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: we will set up webex or something similar and try to make it possible.  We did try to figure out which day was best.  Yes it's in NA - but this time and location won by a significant number of people would be able to come over other times/locations.  This is what made it possible for more people to attend.
17:42:01 <NickRuffilo> q+
17:42:08 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
17:42:18 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
17:42:44 <tzviya> i know
17:43:03 <dkaplan3> I was just wishing the W3C realized that economic access is a participation and diversity issue :(
17:44:15 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: prior - we tried to have a virtual face-to-face all day, it didn't work as well as a face-2-face, but it was not as successful.
17:44:17 <laudrain> TPAC 2018 in Lyon, France
17:44:39 <josh> q+
17:44:45 <tzviya> ack josh
17:45:52 <NickRuffilo> Josh: There is a close/overlap of SSP, but that scheduling would be difficult.  Is there a deadline for registering?
17:46:02 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: We probably have a week or two, but the sooner the better.
17:46:14 <NickRuffilo> Josh: I couldn't go to TPAC because it conflicted with Charlestone...
17:46:33 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: If we're trying to get a group discount, that is best, but you can always stay in a different hotel if you need.
17:47:49 <bendugas> one note about hotels: they'll all be in nice walkable neighbourhoods and the walk/drive to from the office is also nice so don't worry about picking the wrong one end ending up my the highway
17:48:10 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: for those in the new task forces, is there anything you need from me?  Webex?
17:48:24 <jasminemulliken> Yeah, too soon. We'll be coordinating soon though.
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17:48:30 <NickRuffilo> bye!
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17:48:54 <marisa> present+
17:49:01 <ivan> rrsagent, dradft minutes
17:49:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'dradft minutes', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:49:17 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:49:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/26-pwg-minutes.html ivan