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20:53:47 <SimonCox> present+
20:53:57 <SimonCox> regrets: JaroslavPullman
20:54:01 <SimonCox> chair: SimonCox
20:54:24 <SimonCox> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.02.21
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21:01:33 <SimonCox> Are you all joining webex?
21:01:45 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> Stijn_Goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwgdcat
21:01:45 <SimonCox> Need to turn on your audio!
21:01:50 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> present+
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21:03:21 <SimonCox> I can hear you stijn
21:03:26 <SimonCox> do you not hear me?
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21:03:44 <PWinstanley> present+
21:04:38 <DaveBrowning> present+
21:05:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:48 <SimonCox> topic: confirm agenda
21:06:03 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:06:12 <alejandra> present+
21:06:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:06:48 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.02.21
21:08:31 <SimonCox> will you join audio riccardoAlbertoni ?
21:08:49 <NicholasCar> NicholasCar has joined #dxwgdcat
21:09:02 <NicholasCar> Apologies from me folks: kids need readying for school now
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21:10:48 <SimonCox> scribenick: alejandra
21:10:55 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
21:11:14 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.02.21
21:11:45 <alejandra> SimonCox: going through agenda items
21:12:44 <alejandra> ... any better suggestions for agenda items?
21:12:55 <SimonCox> topic: approve minutes from last meeting
21:13:00 <alejandra> ... agenda confirmd
21:13:00 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:13:07 <alejandra> s/confirmd/confirmed
21:13:16 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:13:41 <SimonCox> headings 5. and 6. need to be switched
21:13:43 <alejandra> SimonCox: there was some problem with topic headings, needed to switch headings 5 and 6
21:13:58 <alejandra> ... discussion was largely about constraint axioms
21:14:21 <alejandra> ... made a request to Dave to change those
21:14:35 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: yes, AFAIK Dave has to do it
21:14:36 <AndreaPerego> s/+1//
21:14:45 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> +1
21:14:46 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:14:47 <SimonCox> otherwise +1
21:14:50 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:14:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:14:53 <alejandra> SimonCox: approve the minutes modulo resolving those issues?
21:14:54 <alejandra> +1
21:15:03 <alejandra> +1 by PWinstanley
21:15:39 <alejandra> RESOLVED: meetings approved
21:15:40 <SimonCox> Topic: fpwd dcat 1.x
21:15:59 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:15:59 <SimonCox> here is the artefact - https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/
21:16:05 <alejandra> SimonCox: reminder that the artifact we are working on is DCAT 1.1
21:16:06 <PWinstanley_> present+
21:16:12 <NicholasCar> prexent+
21:16:18 <NicholasCar> present+
21:16:23 <alejandra> ... in the text of the editor draft is 99% taken from DCAT 1.0
21:16:34 <alejandra> ... you can see a bunch of notes and issues
21:16:50 <alejandra> ... the issues are linked to github issues (I think in all cases)
21:17:02 <alejandra> ... in one case I put a discussion about what the issue is
21:17:02 <AndreaPerego> s/meetings approved/last meeting minutes approved, modulo switching headings 5 and 6 (Dave)/
21:18:09 <alejandra> SimonCox: given that we haven't made a substantial decision on issues, so we will make very obvios the areas where changes have been considered
21:18:20 <alejandra> ... the ones we have dealt with so far as the easy ones
21:18:34 <PWinstanley_> s/obvios/obvious/
21:18:34 <alejandra> ... it'd be good if more people would take a look at that
21:19:04 <alejandra> ... modify the document in the standard way: create a branch, commit changes to the branch, send a pull request
21:19:07 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:19:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to the approach followed for preparing the FPWD,  It makes perfectly sense to me
21:19:16 <SimonCox> ack DaveBrowning
21:19:41 <alejandra> DaveBrowning: simple procedural question, when we merge, does the document gets rebuilt automatically?
21:19:44 <alejandra> SimonCox: yes
21:20:27 <alejandra> SimonCox: named editors have been working on a workflow on how the document will be managed in github
21:20:55 <SimonCox> q?
21:21:00 <alejandra> ... in the latest merged PR (pull request), I made the changes, Alejandra reviewed them and DaveBrowning merged them
21:21:26 <alejandra> SimonCox: we have a transparent process with proper review in place
21:21:48 <alejandra> ... requirement to issue this FPWD by 1st quarter of this year
21:21:56 <alejandra> ... so we've got a month and a half
21:22:06 <alejandra> ... it'd be great to resolve a few more issues, but it is not a problem
21:22:18 <alejandra> ... most important things are transparency and communication
21:22:20 <SimonCox> topic: packaging dcat
21:23:58 <alejandra> SimonCox: sharing screen to describe packaging
21:24:29 <alejandra> ... a number of discussions about axiomatization and changes to DCAT
21:24:33 <alejandra> ... domain and ranges
21:25:17 <alejandra> ... looking ath PR #94
21:25:33 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/94
21:26:32 <PWinstanley_> https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-ssn/#Modularization
21:26:34 <alejandra> ... group Spatial Data on the Web WG and SSN vocabulary
21:27:10 <PWinstanley_> q+
21:27:22 <alejandra> ... discussed modularization
21:27:32 <alejandra> ... each block in the diagram represents a separate RDF graph
21:27:39 <alejandra> ... describing aspects of the SSN vocabulary
21:27:46 <alejandra> ... in the centre SOSA module
21:28:00 <alejandra> ... SOSA lists the key classes and properties in the SSN vocabulary
21:28:08 <alejandra> ... without axiomatization
21:28:10 <alejandra> ... no domain and ranges
21:28:20 <alejandra> ... it does include annotation properties
21:28:35 <alejandra> ... goal was to provide a vocabulary usable in a schema.org context, very general context
21:28:46 <alejandra> ... schema.org annotations are hints, no entailment
21:28:57 <alejandra> ... it was deemed as useful
21:29:10 <alejandra> ... for the web community in general, not just SW community
21:29:34 <alejandra> ... SSN module: added the axiomatization, imports SOSA and adds subclass relationships and constraints
21:30:05 <alejandra> ... a user can load the SOSA graph with week axiomatization
21:30:17 <alejandra> ... and load the SSN graph if they are interested in the full axiomatization
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21:30:49 <alejandra> ... other relevant feature is PROV alignment module
21:31:03 <alejandra> ... importing SOSA and PROV-O, providing a mapping between both
21:31:40 <alejandra> ... this approach addresses the issue of allowing profiles
21:32:06 <alejandra> ... not directly and issue of this team but it would help with the connection with the profiles
21:32:30 <alejandra> ... we can split the different issues into separate RDF graphs
21:32:45 <SimonCox> q?
21:32:55 <SimonCox> ack pw
21:32:59 <SimonCox> ack PWinstanley_
21:33:24 <alejandra> PWinstanley_: could you explain the impact of the context of the type of information that you've been dealing in the design?
21:34:19 <alejandra> ... it seems we've got two completely different types of data and I was wondering if it has to do with the nature of the data
21:34:55 <alejandra> SimonCox: some sensor data is streamed but most of the use cases were not about high volume stuff
21:35:01 <alejandra> ... internet of things
21:35:36 <alejandra> ... now showing Fig 23
21:36:13 <alejandra> ... expectation is that there will be reasoning involved
21:36:44 <alejandra> ... I don't think that the use case is what you are imagining
21:38:19 <alejandra> ... now describing property alignment
21:39:00 <alejandra> ... my proposal for DCAT / PROV alignment
21:40:07 <alejandra> ... is to have a new file (prov.ttl) with the alignment
21:41:01 <alejandra> ... it would be normative for people that want a PROV alignment
21:41:17 <alejandra> ... reusing the modularization package of SSN
21:41:31 <alejandra> ... the approach
21:41:56 <alejandra> +q
21:42:05 <SimonCox> q?
21:42:09 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
21:42:59 <PWinstanley_> q+
21:43:59 <alejandra> alejandra: I agree with the approach and I think that following a similar modularization as SSN is very appropriate for the requirements we need to deal with
21:44:05 <SimonCox> ack PWinstanley_
21:44:18 <alejandra> ... I was cautious to merge the PR until we had this discussion
21:44:36 <alejandra> PWinstanley_: it looks like we are promoting bringing in something new
21:44:52 <alejandra> ... my concern is how adequately can be tested for real
21:45:07 <alejandra> ... is there any history of this new approach being rolled out in real life
21:45:17 <alejandra> SimonCox: I can point to what we've done in SSN
21:45:31 <alejandra> ... a number of these modules are labelled as non-normative
21:45:49 <alejandra> ... only a small number of modules are normative
21:45:57 <alejandra> ... the non-normative are FYIs
21:46:05 <alejandra> ... but we believe they are informative
21:46:25 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:46:39 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
21:46:48 <alejandra> ... the non-normative haven't been tested much
21:47:03 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: I was wondering if we can also consider another option for the alignment between DCAT and PROV
21:47:09 <alejandra> ... normalisation process of the data cube
21:47:26 <alejandra> ... subclasses can be added to a graph containing records written in DCAT by using SPARQL queries
21:47:38 <alejandra> ... instead of having a separate definition using RDF
21:47:55 <SimonCox> q+ to ask if SPARQL queries is just an alternative way to document?
21:48:10 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:48:10 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to ask if SPARQL queries is just an alternative way to document?
21:48:30 <alejandra> ... when I have it in the triple store, the SPARQL can be used
21:48:43 <alejandra> SimonCox: could we have both approaches?
21:48:50 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: yes
21:49:04 <alejandra> ... they are not mutually exclusive
21:49:15 <alejandra> +q
21:49:20 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:49:41 <alejandra> a-
21:49:42 <alejandra> q-
21:49:44 <SimonCox> q+ to point out that the meta-issue is the idea of modularizing additional axioms or rules into different graphs/files/artefacts
21:49:54 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: using SPARQL queries can be done pretty easily
21:50:11 <SimonCox> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:50:12 <alejandra> ... depending on the uses, we need other representations (OWL, SHACL, etc)
21:51:05 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: some concerns related to best practices in linked data
21:51:21 <alejandra> ... term coming from a vocabulary, returned by HTTP
21:51:25 <SimonCox> regrets: Makxdekkers
21:51:34 <alejandra> ... it is ok to split the definitions of DCAT in different RDF files
21:51:39 <AndreaPerego> About the normalisation algorithm I mentioned, used in RDF Data Cube: https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/#normalize-algorithm
21:51:55 <alejandra> ... but at the same time we should try to have a system having the full semantics
21:52:09 <SimonCox> q+ to ask riccardoAlbertoni if <owl:imports> is enough for assembly?
21:52:34 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:52:34 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to point out that the meta-issue is the idea of modularizing additional axioms or rules into different graphs/files/artefacts and to ask riccardoAlbertoni if
21:52:37 <Zakim> ... <owl:imports> is enough for assembly?
21:53:24 <alejandra> SimonCox: about assembly set of information
21:53:35 <alejandra> ... OWL provides 'imports'
21:54:10 <alejandra> ... is that enough?
21:54:27 <alejandra> q+
21:54:57 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
21:54:59 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: we need to discuss the different RDF files
21:55:40 <SimonCox> alejandra: the two complementary solutions may help resolve riccardoAlbertoni problem
21:55:55 <SimonCox> ... create the mapping on-the-fly
21:56:38 <SimonCox> ... by SPARQL. While the OWL axiomatization relies on owl:imports
21:56:59 <SimonCox> ... OWL axiomatization allows use-as required
21:57:09 <SimonCox> ... need to go back and look at UCR.
21:57:19 <AndreaPerego> +1 to alejandra to go back to UCRs
21:57:19 <SimonCox> ... be careful that everything is tested
21:57:22 <SimonCox> q?
21:57:58 <alejandra> SimonCox: what I'd like to get agreement on
21:58:08 <PWinstanley_> q+
21:58:15 <alejandra> ... is to deal with the different issues by modularizing in to multiple RDF files
21:58:34 <alejandra> ... we are unclear about impact of modifying dcat.ttl
21:58:45 <alejandra> ... so if we have additional RDF files
21:58:46 <SimonCox> q?
21:58:51 <SimonCox> ack PWinstanley_
21:58:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:58:58 <alejandra> ... we don't need to make a normative commitment at this point
21:59:22 <alejandra> PWinstanley_: I'm not against it, but modulirization brings some complexity
21:59:26 <alejandra> ... e.g. versioning
21:59:33 <alejandra> ... reminds me of unit testing, etc
21:59:56 <alejandra> SimonCox: yes, managing complexity by creating a coreagraphy complexity is a riks
22:00:03 <alejandra> s/riks/risk
22:00:12 <SimonCox> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:00:17 <SimonCox> q?
22:00:19 <alejandra> SimonCox: we can work in independent files as a way of discussion
22:00:22 <PWinstanley_> s/modulirization/modularisation/
22:00:29 <alejandra> ... and we can decide to merge them as a later point
22:00:40 <PWinstanley_> s/coreagraphy/choreography/
22:01:06 <alejandra> riccardoAlbertoni: I would second the solution proposed by AndreaPerego, but I need to analyse this issue in more depth
22:01:10 <SimonCox> q?
22:01:12 <PWinstanley_> s/reminds me of unit testing/reminds me of unit testing microservices/
22:01:39 <alejandra> SimonCox: I will create a specific issue around the proposition I was just making
22:02:07 <alejandra> ... as there is no consensus
22:02:08 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:02:11 <alejandra> ... we can continue the discussion
22:02:57 <SimonCox> q?
22:03:03 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
22:03:25 <alejandra> AndreaPerego: PWinstanley_ raised a concerned that we didn't get much feedback on UCR
22:04:00 <alejandra> ... I was wondering whether to bring something about the work done to the RDA community in Berlin
22:04:09 <alejandra> ... too late to organise a specific session
22:04:15 <alejandra> ... but maybe we can do sth
22:04:16 <NicholasCar> q+
22:04:37 <SimonCox> NicholasCar and SimonCox are represneting the 'australian' community, in particular around ANDS.
22:05:06 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego, NicholasCar  and SimonCox need to trigger some feedback from RDA community - opportunity at P11 plenary in Berlin
22:05:28 <SimonCox> ack NicholasCar
22:05:49 <alejandra> NicholasCar: discussion about interaction with other RDA groups
22:05:56 <alejandra> ... this group has come up a few times
22:06:02 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego? can you coordinate us at RDA - I'll back you.
22:06:10 <alejandra> ... expecting to have more feedback
22:06:29 <alejandra> ... another RDA group: storage definition group
22:06:46 <AndreaPerego> I'll give it a try, SimonCox [scared]
22:06:50 <alejandra> ... interested in distributions - I presented the work on distributions to them
22:06:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> s/riccardoAlbertoni: I would second the solution proposed by AndreaPerego, but I need to analyse this issue in more depth/riccardoAlbertoni: I would second the solution proposed by AndreaPerego for mapping into third-party voc, and modularization to manage with different level of formalization but I need to analyse this issue in more depth
22:07:47 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye
22:07:50 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> thanks all bye bye
22:07:52 <DaveBrowning> Bye
22:08:13 <NicholasCar> bye
22:08:23 <SimonCox> rrsagent, make logs public
22:08:35 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:08:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/21-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
22:09:22 <SimonCox> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:09:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/21-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
22:12:46 <AndreaPerego> regrets+ Jaroslav
22:12:56 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:12:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/21-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:13:31 <AndreaPerego> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference
22:13:33 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:13:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/21-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:16:49 <SimonCox> and a beautiful set of minutes they are too!
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