IRC log of ag on 2018-02-15

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17:04:02 [Alex]
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Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:04:04 [trackbot]
Date: 15 February 2018
17:04:05 [Glenda]
scribe: Glenda
17:04:12 [AWK]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:04:12 [Zakim]
Present: AWK, Kathy, JaeunJemmaKu, kirkwood, JakeAbma, Makoto, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, MichaelC, jallan, SteveRepsher, Glenda, jasonjgw, Greg_Lowney, Mike_Pluke, Mike_Elledge,
17:04:15 [Zakim]
... marcjohlic, adam_solomon, shadi, Bruce_Bailey, Laura, Lauriat, Brooks, jon_avila, MikeGower, KimD, Alex, Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:04:19 [AWK]
present: AWK
17:04:36 [Chuck]
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17:04:41 [JF]
Topic: Broad discussion around SC 1.3.4
17:04:41 [Alex]
present+
17:04:43 [laura]
present+ Laura
17:04:51 [JF]
Present+ JF
17:04:56 [alastairc]
present+ alastairc
17:05:20 [JF]
http://john.foliot.ca/demos/autofill.html
17:05:21 [jasonjgw]
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17:05:41 [jasonjgw]
present+
17:06:18 [Glenda]
Looking for clarity on: Current state of UserAgent support for autofill
17:06:46 [Ryladog]
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17:07:00 [Ryladog]
Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea
17:07:44 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/sec-forms.html#sec-autofill
17:07:51 [kirkwood]
present+
17:08:01 [david-macdonald]
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17:08:50 [shadi]
present+
17:09:40 [Glenda]
JF: best native support in browser….was in FireFox
17:09:53 [david-macdonald]
present +1
17:11:04 [Glenda]
JF: dashlane may be a good helper app. It supports even more of the autofill options: https://www.dashlane.com
17:11:22 [Glenda]
JF: Question: do we need to find a page that has all 53 of the autofile field?
17:11:37 [AWK]
q+ regarding plugin etc
17:11:41 [Glenda]
JF: Question: can we use a helper app to meet the implementation requirement?
17:11:47 [AWK]
q+ to say regarding plugin etc
17:12:30 [david-macdonald]
q+
17:12:33 [Glenda]
JF: Question: clarification on how title attribute relates to the proposed SC 1.3.4. Would like to specifically determine if title attribute can be used, or not?
17:12:41 [steverep_]
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17:12:59 [steverep_]
present+SteveRepsher
17:13:02 [Glenda]
AWK: Agree with assessment - that it can be supported with a helper tool (does not have to be native to the browser).
17:15:00 [jasonjgw]
q+
17:15:36 [JF]
Q+
17:16:42 [Glenda]
AWK: We can still support this SC even if browsers don’t support all the autofill values. If you use something that is not supported (like honorific)…you would need to add the autocomplete attribute to the honorific field as defined here: https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/sec-forms.html#sec-autofill
17:16:59 [AWK]
ack awk
17:16:59 [Zakim]
AWK, you wanted to say regarding plugin etc
17:17:34 [AWK]
ack David
17:17:39 [JF]
ack JF
17:18:27 [Glenda]
JF: there may be a review of the autocomplete list..to ones that are currently supported...
17:19:05 [Glenda]
David: this worries me. We can’t order people to do work that doesn’t have any support in user agents anywhere?
17:19:48 [Glenda]
JF: Can we tweak our language to say “currently supported”?
17:20:13 [JF]
https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html#field-explanation
17:21:18 [Glenda]
JF: compare aui-field to autocomplete list. Redundancy?
17:21:46 [Joshue108]
sorry gotta drop..
17:23:47 [AWK]
ack jas
17:25:05 [JF]
Q+
17:26:05 [Glenda]
Jason: suggest relying now on autofill, but need to use ones that are accessibility supported now.
17:28:25 [Glenda]
Kirkwood: but there are tools like Dashlane that are implementations of these autofill field https://www.dashlane.com
17:29:08 [AWK]
ack jf
17:30:09 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ag
17:30:16 [Glenda]
JF: I installed a browser plugin that supported all the autofill fields, but it only autofills on the exact same form
17:31:12 [Glenda]
JF: what about non-html technologies? Do we scope it to just markup?
17:31:23 [kirkwood]
agreed
17:31:27 [Ryladog]
q+
17:31:38 [Glenda]
AWK: currently scoped to what is supported
17:31:51 [Glenda]
q+
17:32:36 [AWK]
ack ry
17:33:04 [Glenda]
Katie: if we are pointing to HTML5, I’m not sure how you can expect PDF to do this...
17:33:15 [jasonjgw]
q+
17:33:20 [JF]
+
17:33:22 [Glenda]
AWK: we can explain that this is the lsit of field names…and explain how this could apply to PDF
17:33:28 [JF]
Q+
17:34:18 [Glenda]
AWK: we are locking them in to HTML 5.2 (the way the proposed SC is written today)
17:35:11 [AWK]
ack glenda
17:35:12 [david-macdonald]
q+
17:36:50 [JF]
+1 to applying the Section 508 model - grandfathered if static; if you update content then it changes the requirements for conformance
17:37:10 [Greg]
present+ Greg_Lowney
17:37:42 [Alex]
q+
17:38:06 [Glenda]
Glenda: If we are going to grandfather content that was created at a point in time when that technology could not be made to comply…if you have not touched that content…it is grandfathered.
17:39:22 [JF]
Q?
17:39:30 [JF]
queue?
17:40:15 [AWK]
ack jason
17:41:16 [Glenda]
Jason: to Glenda’s point, if you claim conformance, list technologies relied upon…then if future technologies can comply..you won’t be failed.
17:42:26 [Glenda]
Jason: challenge…there is no accessibility supported way to meet some of the autofill fields. Would this delay adoption of WCAG 2.1?
17:43:24 [JF]
ack dav
17:43:46 [Ryladog]
+1 to David
17:44:24 [Glenda]
David: I feel that tis SC may be premature. Not stable list of fields. We need a stable list of fields. If there are major changes in HTML 5.3, it will create a blizzard of a mess. Case study on what happens when you release something that is not mature. Tokens are not ready to be part of a stable requirement.
17:44:41 [JF]
The question is related to *degree* of support
17:44:49 [Glenda]
David: I really want to find a solution, but I think we may need to wait until WCAG 2.2.
17:44:50 [AWK]
ack JF
17:45:02 [JF]
a) continue to point to the HTML 5.2 token values b) constrain the token values to only those that have robust support c) import the token values into WCAG 2.1 (to avoid the "churn" concern @ HTML 5.x)
17:46:08 [Glenda]
JF: I agree with you David. I’m concerned. I was aghast with what I found when I discovered the lack of implementation support. Some of these are fantasy tokens. That is why I’m asking these questions.
17:47:22 [AWK]
ack alex
17:48:48 [Glenda]
Alex: HTML 5 is a living document. If we loose autofill tokens in the future…no matter how we make the list of tokens, it will be a guess.
17:49:49 [Alex]
q+
17:49:57 [Glenda]
AWK: if we have to change the SC to reflect the list of tokens…we need to determine if this type of change triggers the need for a new CR? Is there anyway to do this with the lowest impact..using the current text.
17:50:14 [AWK]
ack alex
17:51:15 [JF]
Q+
17:51:24 [alastairc]
I would be in favour of pulling in a set of values/tokens into wcag, like the previous appendix.
17:53:30 [Ryladog]
q+
17:53:55 [Glenda]
JF: Dashlane may be the AT implementation we need
17:54:42 [jasonjgw]
q+
17:54:57 [Glenda]
AWK: where is the autofill content held in the user agent (browsers) in the browser vault?
17:55:18 [kirkwood]
stored in browser, or an external plugin connected to your ap
17:55:37 [Glenda]
JF: it is indeed, in the browser vault (each browser handles it)
17:58:39 [kirkwood]
don’t think the browser / author can have a page pull data from the ap/plugin
17:59:16 [Glenda]
JF: can we go back to the list of token values in an appendix?
17:59:32 [JF]
BTW, using the HTML 5 autofill tokens, we're already getting some i18n support: https://momdo.github.io/html/form-control-infrastructure.html#autofill-field
18:00:57 [Glenda]
AWK: back to the challenge…we need to make this testable. Finite list has pros and cons.
18:01:36 [Glenda]
AWK: core problem…is the implementation support (of lack thereof)
18:01:58 [Glenda]
David: I think if we don’t have support in browsers…or plugins that work well..we have to step back from it.
18:03:21 [Glenda]
JF: need someone to research stand alone helper apps on Mac.
18:03:26 [Glenda]
Kirkwood: I’ll help you!
18:03:39 [Glenda]
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