16:30:45 RRSAgent has joined #pwg 16:30:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/02/12-pwg-irc 16:30:46 rrsagent, set log public 16:30:46 Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco 16:30:46 Chair: Tzviya 16:30:46 Date: 2018-02-12 16:30:46 Regrets+ Josh, Avneesh, baldurbjarnason, pkra 16:30:46 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0094.html 16:30:47 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-02-05: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Feb/0094.html 16:46:58 wolfgang has joined #pwg 16:51:00 George has joined #pwg 16:54:17 jbuehler has joined #pwg 16:54:27 Teenya has joined #pwg 16:54:41 Present+ 16:55:24 rkwright has joined #pwg 16:57:14 zheng_xu has joined #pwg 16:57:23 laudrain has joined #pwg 16:57:32 EvanOwens has joined #pwg 16:58:10 present+ 16:58:18 present+ 16:58:30 present+ 16:58:41 present+ dauwhe 16:58:53 present+ wolfgang 16:59:02 BenWaltersMS has joined #pwg 16:59:06 gpellegrino has joined #pwg 16:59:20 present+ george 16:59:24 cmaden2 has joined #pwg 16:59:26 dkaplan3 has joined #pwg 16:59:34 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 16:59:42 present+ 16:59:42 mateus has joined #pwg 16:59:42 present+ 16:59:48 present+ 16:59:51 present+ 16:59:59 present+ George 17:00:12 present+ 17:00:14 lsullam has joined #pwg 17:00:19 present + 17:00:21 present+ 17:00:25 present+ bigbluehat 17:00:36 present+ rkwright 17:00:39 Zakim, what is the meaning of life? 17:00:39 I don't understand your question, dauwhe. 17:00:43 present+ BenWaltersMS 17:00:48 present+ 17:00:49 zakim, pick a victim 17:00:49 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose BenWaltersMS 17:00:52 present+ Chris_Maden 17:00:53 zakim, what is best in life? 17:00:53 I don't understand your question, dkaplan3. 17:00:55 present+ Rachel 17:01:05 Teenya has joined #pwg 17:01:29 Vlad has joined #pwg 17:01:36 present+ laudrain 17:01:36 zakim, pick a victim 17:01:36 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tzviya 17:01:41 rdeltour has joined #pwg 17:01:49 scribenick: dauwhe 17:01:55 present+ jbuehler 17:02:09 present+ Vlad 17:02:20 present+ 17:02:36 tzviya: You seem to have fallen off the call. 17:02:44 present+ Benjamin_Young 17:03:02 tzviya: anyone who's new to the meeting? 17:03:13 topic: minutes from last week 17:03:15 Teenya_ has joined #pwg 17:03:15 https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-02-05-minutes 17:03:20 (the usual silence) 17:03:40 tzviya: it was a meeting of ideas :) 17:03:44 ... minutes approved 17:03:54 ... Hadrien, are you here? 17:03:55 resolved: last week's minutes approved 17:03:58 laurentlemeur has joined #pwg 17:04:09 tzviya: lifecycle stuff is on the agenda 17:04:10 garth has joined #pwg 17:04:10 Present+ 17:04:11 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg 17:04:12 present+ 17:04:23 ... while we wait for Hadrien... 17:04:43 present+ Garth 17:04:48 (submarine noises) 17:04:55 Hadrien has joined #pwg 17:05:04 present+ MustLazMS 17:05:04 BenSchroeter has joined #pwg 17:05:06 ... we have a last-minute addition to the agenda 17:05:18 present+ 17:05:20 ... Romain will give us a tech overview of WAM (Web App Manifest) 17:05:29 present+ laurentlemeur 17:05:34 duga has joined #pwg 17:05:37 rdeltour: the Web app manifest is a JSON document 17:05:44 ... that can be linked from an HTML web page 17:05:49 present+ 17:05:53 ... when a user agent (browser) sees that link 17:05:53 present+ 17:05:55 MustLazMS has joined #pwg 17:05:55 HeatherF has joined #pwg 17:06:04 ... it can detect that the web page is a web application, and then process the manifest 17:06:09 i/rdeltour:/Topic: Web Manifest short review/ 17:06:14 marisa has joined #pwg 17:06:14 ... to consider the web app as a native application 17:06:16 present + 17:06:20 ... that's the original use case 17:06:24 present+ 17:06:38 ... define the minimal set of information that a user agent has to know to install a web application to a home screen 17:06:42 present+ Heather_Flanagan 17:06:57 https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ 17:07:07 ... this spec, defined at W3C, defines a JSON format and object 17:07:26 gregdavis has joined #pwg 17:07:28 ... it also defines this document can be obtained and processed/parsed 17:07:33 ... and applied to an application 17:07:33 WAM use cases https://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/ 17:07:35 timCole has joined #pwg 17:07:36 q? 17:07:44 ... that's the simple thing that the WAM does 17:07:47 present+ 17:07:50 present+ Tim_Cole 17:07:57 ... it can potentially be useful for our use cases 17:08:14 ... we want to identifify that a piece of web content is a publication 17:08:21 ... and then hand it off to a library/reading system 17:08:36 ... there are synergies between detecting a web app and detecting a publication 17:08:50 ... you can open both in a special user interface (UI) 17:08:53 q? 17:08:55 q+ 17:08:59 ack ivan 17:09:16 ivan: I spent some time today going through the document again 17:09:26 ... there was one thing that we already discussed on github 17:09:43 ... what bothers me is that, process wise, the content of the WAM is read by the user agent 17:09:56 q+ 17:10:04 BillM has joined #PWG 17:10:06 ... but the result of that processing is unavailable to any script 17:10:38 ... if we add our own terms to the WAM, whatever information we put there we have to duplicate what's in the spec in terms of getting hold of that data 17:10:55 ack rdeltour 17:10:56 ... in an ideal world, there's no need because a browser would handle that (or a reading system) 17:10:59 ... but it worries me 17:11:05 rdeltour: I agree with your point of view 17:11:29 ... in order to confirm your concerns, first we have to define what is "we", and who is going to use the data 17:11:38 ... right now we haven't defined these pieces 17:11:50 ... the involved parties are simple--a user agent 17:11:54 ... like the web browser 17:12:04 ... in our case, because we are defining web publications 17:12:16 ... we were defining as if we had a web browser in mind as the user agent 17:12:33 ... and native reading systems have similar controls to browsers 17:12:51 ... a UA for WP is another web application itself, which makes the situation more complex 17:12:58 ... due to cross-origin resources, etc 17:13:23 q? 17:13:26 q+ 17:13:28 ... before we define what the involved parties are, and what affordances we provide to the users, I think it's too soon to dive into details 17:13:33 ack ivan 17:13:41 ivan: if we were in an ideal world, I'd agree with you 17:13:47 ... but we are not in an ideal world 17:14:07 ... in the short term we need to have a strategy to get there 17:14:23 ... making some sort of proof that this is useful, and that browsers might be interested in implementing 17:14:38 q+ 17:14:45 ... for that purpose, we have to have a strategy of how we would implement these things where a browser doesn't do the job 17:14:55 ... that's where I see a practical problem 17:15:12 tzviya: I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole as last week 17:15:18 ... let's decide what to spec 17:15:23 ack rdeltour 17:15:35 ivan: I'm worried that we will make it impossible 17:15:56 rdeltour: my point was not that we should do an idealist spec 17:16:09 ... when you talk about a practical spec 17:16:15 ... and have proof that it's useful 17:16:24 ... there are lots of ways we could implement this thing 17:16:49 q+ 17:16:54 ... the environment can be a browser, it can be a browser+extension, it can be a web app... 17:17:01 ... it can be a native reading system 17:17:14 ... we haven't decided what the targeted use cases are 17:17:20 ack tzviya 17:17:30 tzviya: I agree with romain, we might be talking in circles 17:17:40 ... we say this won't work, but we don't say what this is 17:18:10 ... maybe we should move on to the next agenda item, and maybe revisit this later 17:18:56 q+ 17:19:01 ack duga 17:19:06 NickRuffilo has joined #pwg 17:19:08 duga: naive question 17:19:15 present+ 17:19:18 ... is there a JS API for manipulating the manifest 17:19:21 ivan: No 17:19:37 present+ duga 17:20:01 garth: for the time being, a reading system or browser with extension, maybe that mitigates the need for script 17:20:14 q? 17:20:17 duga: you can do this by extension, but you need the JS 17:20:28 tzviya: so brady will do that work :) 17:20:48 Topic: lifecycles 17:20:53 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-lifecycle 17:21:16 Hadrien: there are 3 components to the PR 17:21:23 ... 1. adding webidl to appendix 17:21:32 ... I've added a dictionary 17:21:38 ... and a bunch of members 17:21:48 ... this is not tied to any particular serialization 17:22:00 ... so we're somewhere between RWPM and WAM 17:22:06 ... I think that's pretty stable 17:22:22 ... 2. the second part is more of a draft 17:22:28 ... it's the lifecycle itself 17:22:46 ... there are three parts. A. discovering, B, processing the manifest, C. default order 17:22:56 ... the discovering part is weird in our draft 17:23:08 ... were doing almost the same thing, but with a different @rel value 17:23:14 ... so we almost have to monkey-patch 17:23:33 ... this part would disappear if we use WAM 17:23:46 ... the second part, processin gmanifest, is straightforward 17:23:59 ... it's mostly converting JSON into the webIDL dictionary 17:24:08 ... the third part is the most complex part 17:24:14 ... processing the default reading order 17:24:15 q+ 17:24:25 ... with our current infoset this is complex 17:24:33 ... because we allow the reading order in HTML 17:24:40 ... it doubles the complexity of the lifecycle 17:24:52 ... I think it adds too much complexity 17:25:05 ... the final part of the pull request is about affordances 17:25:12 ... we've talked about reading enhancements 17:25:22 ... I've added a number of affordances 17:25:31 ... I've added one for switching to publication mode 17:25:34 https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-affordances 17:25:44 ... there are two affordances related to that use case 17:25:53 ... one is about switching to a mode with enhancements 17:26:04 ... the second is called "add to publication list", like a bookshelf 17:26:16 ... this is not just something that we find in ebook world 17:26:25 ... it's similar with bookmarks in browsers 17:26:42 ... I've reorganized the previous affordances 17:26:53 ... under presentation and navigation 17:27:00 ... under the former I've added user settings 17:27:06 ... in the latter I've added progression 17:27:24 q? 17:27:40 ... hard to allow user customization plus author control 17:27:59 ... for progression, the UA needs to remember where the reader is 17:28:14 ... when you discover a WP, you might not discover it from its first resource 17:28:20 .... you might discover from the middle 17:28:40 ack ivan 17:28:46 ivan: small additions 17:28:57 ... it's not a PR anymore as it's been merged 17:29:20 ... on the second step, not only can the first part be removed if we use wam 17:29:38 ... but the second part too--processing elements, creating internal representation 17:29:42 ... and it has extension points 17:29:47 ... they can be put there 17:30:00 ... the last thing is that there is a PR 17:30:17 ... with some sort of diagram of the processing steps, influenced by Rachel 17:30:25 ... we can merge that if you want 17:30:45 +1 to the diagrams. I've been reviewing them and finding them helpful 17:31:13 tzviya: that was a lot of information 17:31:19 ... feel free to ask for more information 17:31:33 ... don't hesitate to say "i didn't understand" 17:31:33 +1 on diagrams too 17:31:44 +1 on diagrams 17:31:46 ... lots of this will fall away if we go with WAM 17:31:52 ... almost all of the algo section 17:32:23 ... for those interested in the business side of things, section 7, affordances, might be what you should look at 17:32:27 q+ 17:32:38 ... I need to go through this in more detail 17:32:52 ack garth 17:33:04 garth: the WAM simplifies the algo 17:33:17 ... that seems to be the case for 6.1 and 6.2 but not 6.3? 17:33:24 ... would Hadrien and rdeltour agree? 17:33:32 tzviya: 6.3 being reading order 17:33:43 Hadrien: 6.3--we must keep it 17:34:15 tzviya: we should go back and look at the infoset. there's a lot of duplication. But not today. 17:34:18 q? 17:34:35 thanks Hadrien 17:34:40 Hadrien: we need to keep discussing affordances 17:34:53 ... having a single issue for all affordances is probably not a good idea 17:34:59 ... we need to discuss one by one 17:35:04 ... this is where we should focus 17:35:25 +1 to Hadrien 17:35:28 +1 17:35:46 q+ 17:35:50 tzviya: some people we need to be specific about the implementation of affordances 17:35:57 q+ 17:35:57 q+ 17:35:59 ... like search across publications 17:36:07 ... we do have lots of use cases documented already 17:36:15 ... yes, let's put these in as issues 17:36:18 https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/52 17:36:24 ack rd 17:36:50 rdeltour: we spend too much time on spec, not enough on use cases 17:36:57 ... first, I'm not the one editing the spec 17:37:23 ... second, the reason is that there are several parts in the current spec that we might remove 17:37:43 ... but I don't know if affordances need to be specified in w3c rec track 17:37:46 q+ 17:37:47 ... same with infoset 17:38:01 ... knowing this is useful, but that may not be defined in a spec 17:38:12 ... finally, even the concept of a single spec may end up being true 17:38:26 ... we might have one for a collection API, one for a wam extension, etc 17:38:36 ... we still don't have a clear idea of how this will end up 17:38:47 ... I agree we need public working drafts 17:39:01 ... but for now it's mostly notes, and work on defining the vision 17:39:15 ... and functional things 17:39:20 ack laudrain 17:39:25 tzviya: I agree 17:39:42 laudrain: Hadrien, the use case of Japanese books with progression from last page to first page 17:39:58 ... is it covered by paginated layouts, or is it covered by progression 17:40:13 Hadrien: I raised an issue. it's not covered, needs to be in infoset 17:40:54 ack ivan 17:40:55 ... and we also need covers 17:41:08 ivan: I agree with the general line 17:41:22 ... I'm not sure I agree with all the details about doing not-yet-standard work 17:41:28 ... the first step that we have to make 17:41:40 ... is what exactly we would put in a spec about affordances 17:41:41 Karen has joined #pwg 17:42:01 ... whether we do a detailed API, or whether we stay on a higher level 17:42:10 ... if I compare the CSS spec and HTML spec 17:42:21 ... the HTML spec is more and more algorithmic API level spec 17:42:40 ... where CSS is more on the level on this is how it should be presented 17:42:49 ... because the underlying work is different 17:42:58 ... I don't know how to define the affordances 17:43:09 ... and how much detail we want to leave to the user agents 17:43:24 ... on the practical level, having one github issue for the affordances is not good 17:43:31 ... we can clean that up 17:43:43 q? 17:44:01 ... cutting the doc into several parts that romain proposed--we can do this at any time 17:44:20 ... we can do the CSS way, lots of modules, or the HTML way, with one spec 17:44:27 ... we can decide later 17:44:29 q+ 17:44:54 ack Hadrien 17:44:58 ack Hadrien 17:45:06 Hadrien: i agree that infoset will go away 17:45:17 ... it will be replaced by syntax or webidl 17:45:34 +1 to Hadrien 17:45:45 ... I don't think lifecycle will go away 17:45:55 ... I don't think webidl part will go away 17:46:32 ... on syntax replacing the infoset, it depends on serialization 17:46:46 ... in addition to affordances, we should go to WAM repo and post issues there 17:46:58 +1 to posting issues to WAM 17:47:03 .... we need to ask questions about localized strings, for exmaple, or other display members 17:47:19 s/exmaple/example/ 17:47:33 ack rdeltour 17:47:40 rdeltour: chiming in on what ivan said 17:47:53 ... when you said that splitting the spec is an editorial issue 17:47:57 ... I think it's more than that 17:48:10 ... there's a tendancy to put all our issues in one bucket 17:48:24 q? 17:48:46 ... but maybe we can use an API for one thing, a CSS MQ for another thing 17:49:09 ... having everything in one spec may limit our vision 17:49:09 s/MQ/Media Query/ 17:49:21 tzviya: sounds like next steps are cleaning up Github re affordances 17:49:28 ... also logging issues on WAM 17:49:37 +1 17:49:55 tzviya: can you log issues on WAM 17:49:55 q+ 17:49:59 ack ivan 17:50:02 ivan: yes, we can log issues, but before we do that 17:50:11 ... we already had discussion with WAM folks 17:50:22 ... but we didn't have a good feeling then of how we'd do things 17:50:30 ... now we have a much better view 17:50:44 ... and Hadrien had made a collection of things we should try to get done 17:50:52 ... maybe having a meeting first? 17:51:01 ... to see what's the best way of moving forward 17:51:19 ... maybe we should have someone in that group 17:51:35 tzviya: maybe we can work out the details later 17:51:46 garth: there seems to be openness to the extension points 17:52:00 tzviya: we have ten minutes left 17:52:21 Topic: Testing 17:52:22 ... Chris Madan has volunteered to take over testing 17:52:30 ... he's reached out to some people 17:52:38 ... anyone want to help out 17:52:50 s/Madan/Maden 17:52:57 Chris: I'm already talking with Tim Cole, who did anno testing 17:53:06 s/Chris/cmaden2/ 17:53:19 The Reading System testing group can help, but it depends on what stage. 17:53:23 cmaden2: but we have some good models to build on 17:53:28 ... but I need volunteers 17:53:38 ... in the short term to identify the testable assertions 17:53:42 q+ 17:53:49 ... and in the long term to find resources in groups to test your impelementations 17:53:56 ack George 17:54:04 ... so we can demonstrate implementations 17:54:14 s/impelementations/implementations/ 17:54:16 George: we've developed a methodology 17:54:28 ... we have a title with numbered tests 17:54:42 ... we'll be happy to help 17:54:46 tzviya: thank you 17:55:02 ... anyone who wants to work with Chris on identifying testable statements 17:55:16 cmaden2: george, when you say "we" do you mean DAISY or WCAG? 17:55:26 George: DAISY is running epubtest.org 17:55:30 ... our test books are there 17:55:54 q+ 17:55:58 ack timCole 17:56:25 q+ 17:56:32 timCole: the challenge is to have things... features... written in the spec in such a way that you can objectively confirm that two people have implemented 17:56:58 ... if there's no way to objectively know something's been implemented, you have to remove from the spec 17:57:08 ... that's why you want to make sure you have testable statements early 17:57:10 ack ivan 17:57:15 q? 17:57:19 ivan: to add to what Tim said 17:57:22 Folks can e-mail me at crism@illinois.edu 17:57:31 ... in a way, when we are talking about testing 17:57:37 ... we are talking about two different things 17:57:48 ... one is, we have to test the spec itself 17:58:01 ... each feature 1. can be implemented in an interoperable way 17:58:22 ... there's a requirement at the end of the process that we have at least two independent implementations for each features 17:58:24 evan has joined #pwg 17:58:29 ... if not, it has to be removed from spec 17:58:56 ... at the same time, the tests have a usage like in epubcheck 17:59:04 ... a test for contents and for implementations 17:59:08 ... they are not independent 17:59:22 ... from w3c point of view, the requirement is the first one 17:59:34 garth: wanted to run through 3 agenda items 17:59:48 ... feedback on FPWDs 18:00:00 ... circle back to Ivan's principles in a week or two 18:00:21 ... we should skip next week as it's a US holiday, next meeting on Feb 26 18:00:37 https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-pub/ 18:00:38 ... and a quick callout for Syncronized Multimedia COMMUNITY Group 18:00:52 ... and do look at reference number six, on the F2F in Toronto 18:01:05 ... and folks at Kobo to reach out to with questions 18:01:12 tzviya: and wendy needed info for F2F 18:01:46 George: people interested in audiobooks should look at the new CG 18:02:17 dkaplan3 has left #pwg 18:02:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:02:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/12-pwg-minutes.html ivan 18:02:57 evan has left #pwg 18:03:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:03:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/12-pwg-minutes.html ivan