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20:54:32 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
20:54:32 <trackbot> Date: 06 February 2018
20:55:54 <kcoyle> present+
21:00:10 <dsr> dsr has joined #dxwg
21:00:18 <roba> roba has joined #dxwg
21:00:21 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwg
21:01:38 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwg
21:02:14 <annette_g> present+
21:02:19 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwg
21:02:20 <roba> present+
21:02:30 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present+
21:02:43 <SimonCox> present+
21:02:59 <NicholasCar> NicholasCar has joined #dxwg
21:03:14 <NicholasCar> present+
21:05:30 <SimonCox> scribe: SimonCox
21:05:53 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwg
21:06:06 <kcoyle> topic: admin
21:06:18 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2018/01/30-dxwg-minutes
21:06:29 <Ixchel> Ixchel has joined #dxwg
21:06:29 <Ixchel> present+
21:06:42 <SimonCox> TopiC: approve minutes of last meeting
21:06:44 <Makx> present+ Makx
21:06:49 <SimonCox> +1
21:06:50 <kcoyle> PROPOSED: approve last week's minutes
21:06:56 <roba> +1
21:07:03 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:07:11 <Ixchel> +1
21:07:12 <kcoyle> RESOLVED: approve last week's minutes
21:07:12 <annette_g> +1
21:07:38 <SimonCox> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2018.02.06
21:07:50 <SimonCox> Chair: kcoyle
21:08:12 <SimonCox> TOPIC: UCR comments
21:08:25 <SimonCox> Need to understand and respond to comments
21:08:51 <SimonCox> ... UCR editors are traffic cops for this
21:08:58 <kcoyle> q?
21:09:16 <SimonCox> roba: sent proposal for how to respond to list
21:09:31 <SimonCox> ... no discussion yet
21:09:36 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:09:39 <SimonCox> ... two weeks ago
21:09:59 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwg
21:10:07 <SimonCox> Ixchel: was that my email?
21:10:42 <SimonCox> q+
21:10:52 <DaveBrowning> present+
21:11:06 <SimonCox> roba: can't find email now - was it sent?
21:11:46 <SimonCox> ... comments from 'Anna' - possible specializations about differnet kinds of profile
21:11:53 <SimonCox> ... metadata profile vs. profile
21:12:07 <SimonCox> ... unclear at this stage if that is needed
21:12:22 <roba> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Jan/0001.html
21:12:35 <SimonCox> ... use-cases from Norway
21:13:04 <annette_g> +1 to simplifying to a single concept
21:13:08 <SimonCox> ... no different unless there is functional difference in behaviours
21:13:42 <SimonCox> ... looks like main issues are already covered in existing use-cases
21:14:04 <kcoyle> q?
21:14:22 <SimonCox> ... responsibility of vocabulary providers to package any complex collections
21:15:08 <kcoyle> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:15:08 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:15:46 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Norway stated which ucs are important to them and offer to supply user stories
21:16:06 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwg
21:16:13 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
21:16:14 <SimonCox> ... Ixchel has elaborated answer to this
21:16:16 <Ixchel> q+
21:16:31 <SimonCox> q-
21:17:14 <SimonCox> Ixchel: onus is on the contributors to read what we have and comment on missed requirements
21:17:34 <SimonCox> ... are there any deadlines on submitting comments on UCR
21:17:36 <SimonCox> ?
21:17:56 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: no deadline
21:18:17 <SimonCox> roba: email failed to send
21:18:38 <SimonCox> ... sent now
21:18:42 <kcoyle> q?
21:18:56 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: should we put a timeframe for responding to UCR comments
21:19:39 <kcoyle> q?
21:20:13 <SimonCox> roba: no deadline on UCR comments and responses
21:20:38 <SimonCox> ACTION: Ixchel to respond to Ostein
21:20:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Respond to ostein [on Ixchel Faniel - due 2018-02-13].
21:20:53 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-comments/2018Jan/0000.html
21:20:59 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: comment from Chris Little
21:21:31 <SimonCox> ... requirement for 'update' relation
21:21:49 <SimonCox> ... delete and overwrite
21:21:50 <SimonCox> q+
21:21:55 <roba> q+
21:21:59 <Ixchel> q-
21:22:18 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:22:27 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: sees problems with replacement relation, inconsistent with datacite
21:22:38 <kcoyle> ack SimonCox
21:23:43 <kcoyle> ack roba
21:24:05 <SimonCox> SimonCox: replacement relations are needed in some scenarios, its not our job to police that
21:24:24 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:24:35 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:24:54 <SimonCox> roba: dynamically updated data does not 'replace' earlier data, it is a newer 'best guess'
21:25:12 <kcoyle> ack AndreaPerego
21:25:14 <SimonCox> ... different applciations will have different relationships
21:25:44 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: many different scenarios on this use case, can't apply just one vocabulary of relationships
21:26:13 <SimonCox> ... dataset persistence will be a policy issue on the data-provider side
21:26:38 <SimonCox> ... various scenarios and possible labeling solutions
21:27:09 <SimonCox> ... also link to Data on the Web best practices
21:27:38 <SimonCox> ... cannot prescribe solutions for all cases, though can describe good practices
21:27:38 <kcoyle> ack DaveBrowning
21:28:45 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: newer 'best guess' scenario should be supported in a profile, and documented in best practices
21:29:09 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:29:26 <SimonCox> ... too much variation for core
21:29:29 <annette_g> q+
21:30:06 <roba> +1 - informal examples - make sure there is at least guidance
21:30:19 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: shoudl we document examples of common cases? maybe a new UC for 'replacement?
21:31:05 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: two distinct cases - 1. new version which replaces earlier 2. newer best guess for dataset previously published
21:31:35 <NicholasCar> Aren't these qualified wasDerivedFroms?
21:31:44 <SimonCox> Jaroslav_Pullmann: datacite relation 'new version of'
21:32:20 <SimonCox> I don't think so NicholasCar
21:32:28 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
21:32:37 <Makx> dct:versionOf?
21:32:48 <SimonCox> annette_g: two versioning issues here -
21:33:01 <SimonCox> ... version of dataset recorded in catalogue
21:33:06 <SimonCox> ... version of profile
21:34:19 <AndreaPerego> q-
21:34:19 <SimonCox> ... dataset case is highly variable, not possible to prescribe versioning patterns generally
21:34:23 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:34:31 <Makx> s/versionOf/isVersionOf
21:35:15 <SimonCox> kcoyle: who will reply to Chris Little?
21:35:38 <SimonCox> ... please run this through the dxwg list first!
21:35:41 <kcoyle> q?
21:35:56 <AndreaPerego> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:36:16 <SimonCox> TOPIC: definition of 'Profile'
21:36:27 <roba> q+
21:36:41 <kcoyle> ack roba
21:37:19 <SimonCox> roba: had attempt starting from ISO 10000 definition of profile, relaxing need to be based on ISO artefacts
21:37:40 <SimonCox> ... still thinks it is good, but lots of push back from the group :-(
21:38:04 <SimonCox> kcoyle: where is definition text?
21:38:08 <annette_g> 2/4/18 1:07 pm
21:38:23 <annette_g> "A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. This definitions allows for the set of constraints may be empty, and specifications may be profiles themselves, so that all statements about conformance t
21:38:23 <annette_g> o a specification may be made using the single concept of a profile" 
21:38:23 <annette_g> 
21:38:28 <roba> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/ProfileContext
21:38:48 <annette_g> … which I rather like
21:39:09 <annette_g> q+
21:39:10 <kcoyle> q?
21:39:22 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
21:39:49 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:39:50 <kcoyle> q?
21:39:55 <SimonCox> annette_g: is "this definition ..." part of the text, or commentary.
21:40:21 <SimonCox> roba: commentary
21:40:29 <roba> "A set of one or more base standards, and, where applicable, the identification of chosen classes, conforming subsets, options and parameters of those base standards necessary to accomplish a particular function."  noting that the scope of "base standards" is relaxed to any standard that is identified by a canonical IRI, and thus can be identified by software agents. Profiles may act as "base standards" for more specialised profiles.
21:41:00 <annette_g> q+
21:41:33 <kcoyle> ack AndreaPerego
21:41:53 <roba> q+
21:41:59 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: mixed discussion: 1. profile for conneg 2. profile for metadata
21:42:23 <SimonCox> ... which?
21:42:51 <SimonCox> roba: UCR says we need common definition of profile, conneg should be consistent with this
21:43:15 <SimonCox> ... ruben is concerned about data model describing profile
21:44:08 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: terminological problem - conneg-by-profile allows you to point to information complementary to immediate information
21:44:36 <SimonCox> ... metadata records in XML which are either ISO 19139 or DCAT - which schema?
21:44:49 <SimonCox> ... conneg-by-profile must complement media-type
21:45:34 <SimonCox> ... same term used different for content profile
21:45:36 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
21:46:28 <Makx> type 2, profile for metadata is mostly useful for validation, e.g. expressed as SHACL file
21:47:09 <SimonCox> annette_g: 'A named set ...' focuses on the set of constraints, and is better
21:48:38 <annette_g> +1 to Rob
21:48:40 <kcoyle> q?
21:48:43 <SimonCox> roba: the two applications of 'profile' should be consistent, big problem if they are not
21:48:45 <kcoyle> ack roba
21:49:06 <Makx> +1 to roba
21:49:29 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:49:37 <kcoyle> ack AndreaPerego
21:50:10 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: 'DCAT' itself is a 'profile' in this context - content model that complements serialization
21:50:23 <annette_g> DCAT as profile of DCAT is just the trivial case.
21:51:08 <kcoyle> q?
21:51:16 <SimonCox> ... profile of metadata is also a profile, similar to data
21:51:27 <annette_g> q+
21:52:25 <SimonCox> PROPOSED: use this as the definition of 'profile' - "A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
21:52:30 <roba> A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. This definitions allows for the set of constraints may be empty, and specifications may be profiles themselves, so that all statements about conformance t [08:38] <annette_g> o a spec
21:53:04 <AndreaPerego> Maybe we should say: "A named set of constraints, possibly empty, [...]"
21:53:11 <roba>  o a specification may be made using the single concept of a profile"
21:53:26 <roba> +1 at Andreas's c;arification
21:53:34 <roba> s/at/to/
21:53:43 <roba> s/c;/cl/
21:54:14 <SimonCox> annette_g: antoine also had comments -
21:54:23 <Makx> if a 'named set of constraints' is empty, doesn't that mean an empty set, so nothing at all?
21:54:44 <kcoyle> q?
21:54:48 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
21:54:48 <annette_g> q-
21:55:17 <annette_g> let's vote!
21:55:25 <Makx> so, is the NULL set a profile?
21:55:42 <annette_g> It is a waste of time, though.
21:55:46 <Makx> I would delete the 'possibly empty'
21:55:49 <SimonCox> PROPOSED: "A named set of constraints, possibly empty, on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
21:56:05 <AndreaPerego> Then, e.g., DCAT is not a profile.
21:56:16 <SimonCox> "A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
21:56:23 <SimonCox> ... + guidance
21:56:44 <annette_g> q+
21:57:00 <kcoyle> ack annette_g
21:57:04 <Makx> Last one, without the empty, OK with me
21:57:19 <SimonCox> roba: in the wild, some existing specifications could be merely profiles
21:57:21 <SimonCox> q+
21:58:01 <kcoyle> ack SimonCox
21:58:19 <roba> +1
21:58:19 <annette_g> +1
21:58:28 <SimonCox> annette_g: + roba DCAT profiles may be narrower
21:58:28 <SimonCox> +1
21:58:30 <NicholasCar> +1
21:58:31 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:58:40 <Makx> what are we voting on?
21:58:41 <AndreaPerego> 0
21:58:47 <SimonCox> (we can always revist)
21:58:55 <Makx> what was the proposal?
21:58:56 <SimonCox> s/revist/revisit/
21:59:00 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:59:12 <roba> q+
21:59:25 <Makx> the second one after the PROPOSED?
21:59:30 <SimonCox> Proposed: to adopt this definition of 'Profile' - "A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
21:59:36 <kcoyle> ack roba
21:59:39 <Makx> +1
21:59:54 <AndreaPerego> Maybe "constraints or restrictions".
22:00:00 <SimonCox> Resolved: ns, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
22:00:33 <kcoyle> rrsagent, please create minutes
22:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/06-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle
22:00:34 <SimonCox> RESOLUTION: to adopt this definition of 'Profile' - "A named set of constraints on one or more identified base specifications, including the identification of any implementing subclasses of datatypes, semantic interpretations, vocabularies, options and parameters of those base specifications necessary to accomplish a particular function. "
22:00:36 <NicholasCar> Cheers all
22:00:39 <AndreaPerego> Thanks, bye!
22:00:40 <roba> bye
22:00:42 <annette_g> bye!
22:00:42 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye!
22:00:43 <kcoyle> rrsagent, please create minutes v2
22:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/06-dxwg-minutes.html kcoyle
22:00:46 <Makx> bye
22:00:48 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
22:01:29 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
22:01:36 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:01:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/06-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:02:31 <AndreaPerego> regrets+ Lars, Ruben, Peter, Antoine
22:02:33 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/06-dxwg-minutes.html AndreaPerego