IRC log of tt on 2018-01-25

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:12:31 [trackbot]
Date: 25 January 2018
15:12:37 [nigel]
Present: Pierre, Nigel
15:12:40 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
15:12:44 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:12:48 [nigel]
Regrets: Cyril
15:12:53 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:12:58 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:13:05 [nigel]
Nigel: Regrets from Cyril but he asked me if we could cover ttml2#359 and ttml2#358.
15:13:09 [nigel]
.. Also thank you Pierre for proposing some issues to cover.
15:13:15 [nigel]
.. Today we can talk about the IMSC 1.0.1 implementation report as well, which has just
15:13:20 [nigel]
.. had a new implementation added.
15:13:40 [nigel]
.. Aside from that we have some other issues I marked as "agenda" and listed on the agenda.
15:13:53 [nigel]
.. Any other business or specific points to cover?
15:14:01 [nigel]
Topic: Add example fragments and images. ttml2#359
15:14:10 [nigel]
15:14:23 [tmichel]
15:14:27 [nigel]
Nigel: Cyril sent me a message saying he proposes to postpone working on this until after CR
15:14:32 [nigel]
.. because it is editorial only.
15:15:26 [nigel]
.. The remaining examples are ttp:profile, tt:animate, tt:set, isd:isdSequence, isd:isd
15:15:35 [nigel]
Pierre: It's fine for me if we defer.
15:15:59 [nigel]
Nigel: I've added it to a new milestone "Post CR1".
15:16:17 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Group happy to defer remaining examples until after CR publication.
15:16:40 [nigel]
Topic: Incorporate resolutions of additional TTML1 Issues. ttml2#358
15:16:50 [nigel]
15:16:58 [pal]
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Nigel: Cyril says the unchecked boxes are those issues that he does not know how to progress.
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.. Particularly he wants to know how to progress in TTML2.
15:18:20 [nigel]
Pierre: I can provide commit hashes if that would help, for the TTML1 fixes.
15:18:46 [nigel]
Nigel: My guess is that he's looked at them and thinks there may be some differences in
15:18:48 [nigel]
.. TTML2 vs TTML1.
15:18:53 [nigel]
.. However I think they're all the same.
15:19:58 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes. I'm happy to go through this and check the PRs and provide suggestions.
15:20:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you!
15:21:16 [nigel]
SUMMARY: @palemieux to provide more information on the current unchecked ttml1 issues listed here.
15:21:27 [nigel]
Pierre: I will also go through the list and make sure it is complete.
15:22:10 [nigel]
group: [Pierre, Nigel and Andreas] agree that separate tracking issues would have made this easier to deal with than a single umbrella issue.
15:22:58 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.0.1 CR Exit
15:23:41 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks Thierry for updating the IMSC 1.0.1 Implementation report based on input
15:23:46 [nigel]
.. from BaseX and IRT.
15:24:20 [nigel]
Thierry: I did test against the test suite for the new implementation. The exit criteria do not
15:24:32 [nigel]
.. require any presentation output, and this tool does not provide any, so that is okay.
15:24:48 [nigel]
Andreas: If you manipulate for example the itts:fillLineGap so that it is not valid then you
15:25:03 [nigel]
.. should find that the implementation reports an error and links to the spec place where
15:25:05 [nigel]
.. it is defined.
15:25:22 [nigel]
Thierry: The main question is if the issue is enough to satisfy the exit criteria, and the way I read it, it is.
15:25:25 [nigel]
Nigel: +1
15:25:42 [nigel]
-> IMSC 1.0.1 Implementation Report
15:27:20 [nigel]
Nigel: Reviewing the CR exit criteria:
15:27:28 [nigel]
.. "For this specification to exit the CR stage, at least 2 independent implementations of every feature defined in this specification but not already present in [IMSC1] need to be documented in the implementation report."
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.. That's done.
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.. Also:
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.. "The implementation report is based on implementer-provided test results for the exit criteria test suite. "
15:27:48 [nigel]
Thierry: I'm satisfied that this is done.
15:28:05 [nigel]
Nigel: In that case what do we do now?
15:28:37 [nigel]
Thierry: Andreas, are you comfortable telling the group that you have provided a new implementation?
15:28:40 [nigel]
Andreas: Of course yes
15:28:55 [nigel]
Nigel: It's also in the minutes from this here meeting!
15:29:13 [nigel]
.. What do we need to do now?
15:29:28 [nigel]
Thierry: We need a transition request resolution, an updated PR draft and request transition
15:29:30 [nigel]
.. to the Director.
15:30:58 [nigel]
Nigel: Are you able to create the PR draft in the next couple of weeks?
15:31:42 [nigel]
Pierre: There are some pull requests to merge. I'd like to propose that we handle any
15:31:52 [nigel]
.. new issues on IMSC in IMSC 1.1 unless they're fatal.
15:32:19 [nigel]
Thierry: I wasn't aware of that - yes they need to be merged first.
15:33:42 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Request transition to Proposed Recommendation of IMSC 1.0.1 when all the open issues have been closed.
15:33:54 [nigel]
Pierre: None of the pull requests are substantive, they are all clarifications.
15:34:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Looking at the open pull requests:
15:34:50 [nigel]
-> IMSC 1.0.1 Pull Requests
15:35:28 [nigel]
Nigel: There are 5, the most recent opened 3 days ago. They all have approvals.
15:35:35 [nigel]
.. Are there any open issues without pull requests.
15:35:44 [nigel]
Pierre: Issues 254 and 253.
15:36:23 [nigel]
Topic: Should UTF-8 'as specified in' point to the Encoding spec? imsc#253
15:36:33 [nigel]
Nigel: We asked for feedback within 2 weeks, 15 days ago.
15:36:44 [nigel]
.. I propose to mark this as WR-commenter-no-response.
15:37:04 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Mark this as WR-commenter-no-response.
15:37:22 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
15:38:31 [nigel]
Topic: What fillLineGap does/ affects #254
15:38:39 [nigel]
15:38:47 [nigel]
Pierre: This one is marked commenter no response already.
15:39:22 [nigel]
Thierry: It's okay to close this and I'll pick it up via the labels.
15:39:28 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
15:40:08 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1.0.1 CR Exit
15:40:42 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Request transition to Proposed Recommendation of IMSC 1.0.1 when all the open issues have been closed.
15:41:47 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Defer any further issues raised against IMSC 1.0.1 to IMSC 1.1 unless the WG considers them to be fatal.
15:41:54 [nigel]
Thierry: I think it's fair
15:42:00 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Defer any further issues raised against IMSC 1.0.1 to IMSC 1.1 unless the WG considers them to be fatal.
15:42:37 [nigel]
Thierry: The good news is that we should have finalised this before rechartering, so that would be one deliverable that is not needed in our new Charter.
15:43:17 [nigel]
Nigel: Strictly it wasn't in the old Charter, it is a maintenance release of IMSC that is in the old Charter.
15:43:27 [nigel]
.. And we will continue to maintain IMSC in the new Charter.
15:44:05 [nigel]
Thierry: I will start to prepare the transition request - once I have the draft from Pierre
15:44:18 [nigel]
.. with the edits then if it's okay I will request transition, which should be straightforward.
15:45:29 [nigel]
Nigel: I've opened imsc#310 for you to do that Thierry.
15:46:59 [nigel]
Topic: Clarify tts:fontSize semantics ttml1#301 (pull request)
15:47:16 [nigel]
Pierre: Glenn has raised comments on this to make it more similar to TTML2 but the
15:47:37 [nigel]
.. pull request has already been approved.
15:50:10 [nigel]
Nigel: I think Glenn's requested changes look okay, even if they're not particularly an
15:50:13 [nigel]
.. improvement.
15:52:05 [nigel]
Pierre: One option is to make Glenn's changes, another is to merge regardless.
15:52:21 [nigel]
Nigel: A third is to minimise the deltas relative to TTML2 by changing TTML2 to match this.
15:54:51 [nigel]
Pierre: Glenn's comment at
15:55:11 [nigel]
.. seems to differ from his later one at
15:58:42 [nigel]
Andreas: Can we resolve to make the changes corresponding to Glenn's existing comments
15:58:49 [nigel]
.. and then any further changes require new issues?
15:59:17 [nigel]
Nigel: I think so.
15:59:33 [nigel]
.. If there are any issues after merging then they can be raised later.
16:01:01 [nigel]
-> Built version of this pull request
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16:02:21 [pal]
16:04:56 [nigel]
Pierre: There's a duplication in TTML2 ED of the text about relative resolution of percentage
16:05:06 [nigel]
.. font sizes, which is both in the paragraph text and in the table row about percentages.
16:05:26 [nigel]
.. I'm not happy to put the same duplication in TTML1.
16:06:28 [nigel]
Nigel: Okay, you should point that out on the comment.
16:06:58 [nigel]
Pierre: Did we remove styles on tt?
16:07:00 [nigel]
Nigel: We agreed to.
16:07:25 [nigel]
Pierre: Then the text about referenced styled ancestor element is no longer needed.
16:07:37 [nigel]
.. In TTML1 it can only be region element. I was trying to keep it close to TTML1.
16:07:57 [nigel]
.. The text "If not tt element..." in TTML2 is no longer relevant.
16:08:21 [nigel]
Nigel: That's fair enough, not to add that TTML2 text to TTML1.
16:08:53 [nigel]
Andreas: Because the nearest ancestor element will always be the parent, yes?
16:08:55 [nigel]
Pierre: yes
16:12:10 [nigel]
Nigel: I think the first change can be minimised to introducing the word "computed" so
16:12:18 [nigel]
.. it says "relative to parent element's computed font size"
16:12:33 [nigel]
Andreas: I think the current pull request text is fine and the proposed text by Glenn does not really help.
16:14:44 [nigel]
Pierre: I generally tried to keep things the same as TTML1 so that a diff between 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed clearly shows the trail.
16:14:49 [nigel]
.. This is what Glenn also asked for!
16:15:20 [nigel]
Nigel: I think these valid comments need to go on the pull request.
16:16:21 [nigel]
Pierre: On the first comment I can make the editorial change to the sentence, that's fine.
16:16:40 [nigel]
.. But reordering will increase the delta relative to TTML1.
16:16:46 [nigel]
s/1/1 Second Edition
16:18:00 [nigel]
Nigel: Since the changes are editorial, we could apply a 3 day rule for the changes relative to the current pull request.
16:18:11 [nigel]
Pierre: [makes changes "live"]
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Nigel: After this has built I propose that we approve it and I'll add a comment saying that
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.. in the interests of closing this, since all the substantive comments have been addressed,
16:39:23 [nigel]
.. please open a new issue if there are any further changes to be made.
16:39:48 [nigel]
Pierre: Thank you. This was the only blocking issue on TTML1.
16:40:55 [pal]
16:41:07 [nigel]
Topic: Defer to TTML2 for security and privacy considerations imsc#307
16:41:22 [nigel]
s/7/7 (pull request)
16:42:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Reviewing the TTML2 Privacy and Security considerations, I believe that the following
16:42:48 [nigel]
.. from TTML2 do not apply to IMSC1.1:
16:43:03 [nigel]
.. P.7 Access to Processing State - condition is absent from IMSC1.1
16:43:06 [nigel]
Pierre: +1
16:43:50 [nigel]
Nigel: What about hyperlinking with xlink - is that possible in IMSC1.1?
16:43:52 [nigel]
Pierre: NO
16:43:55 [nigel]
16:44:06 [nigel]
Nigel: In that case P.8 does not apply to IMSC 1.1 either.
16:44:29 [nigel]
.. So I would call out that those two do not apply.
16:44:49 [nigel]
Pierre: Alright. If you file this under the pull request I can add the section and an informative
16:44:53 [nigel]
.. statement that they don't apply.
16:45:00 [nigel]
.. Tell me what to write.
16:45:03 [nigel]
Nigel: OK I will.
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16:48:07 [nigel]
.. [adds to the pull request]
16:48:12 [nigel]
Pierre: I'll implement that ASAP.
16:48:25 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm not concerned by editorial changes to make it read better.
16:50:13 [nigel]
Topic: Replacing references from TTML1 to TTML2 imsc#258
16:50:20 [nigel]
16:50:39 [nigel]
Nigel: @mikedo hasn't responded here since 5th October.
16:50:54 [nigel]
.. There's a proposal with one +1 (from me) to close.
16:51:08 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Close this issue with no change.
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github-bot, end topic
16:51:35 [nigel]
Topic: Minimum URI schema support not defined. imsc#157
16:51:40 [nigel]
16:53:27 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to close since no action appears to be necessary for IMSC1.1, which references TTML2 for this functionality.
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github-bot, end topic
16:53:59 [nigel]
Topic: Resolution of relative URI values of smpte:backgroundImage not defined. #156
16:54:12 [nigel]
16:55:02 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to close since no action appears to be necessary for IMSC1.1, which deprecates this functionality.
16:55:06 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
16:55:32 [nigel]
Topic: Image profile should permit embedded images using smpte:image. imsc#82
16:55:38 [nigel]
16:57:44 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to put this on the backlog for a future version of IMSC.
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github-bot, end topic
16:58:31 [nigel]
Topic: Yiddish in captions/subtitles imsc#38
16:58:37 [nigel]
17:00:04 [nigel]
Pierre: I confirmed recently that Yiddish is present in CLDR.
17:00:06 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to close with no action
17:00:10 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
17:00:38 [nigel]
Topic: HRM should be a processor compliance test and allow different levels of complexity for different use cases imsc#15
17:00:44 [nigel]
17:01:48 [nigel]
Nigel: Does Ruby affect the HRM?
17:02:05 [nigel]
Pierre: Each Ruby is a CJK character that is counted in the HRM, it is just a character.
17:02:13 [nigel]
Nigel: Same with text emphasis?
17:02:18 [nigel]
Pierre: Good question.
17:02:24 [nigel]
Nigel: fontShear?
17:02:28 [nigel]
Pierre: That's taken care of.
17:02:51 [nigel]
.. We might want a note about textEmphasis. I will file an issue against IMSC 1.1.
17:03:19 [nigel]
.. Thanks for pointing that out - they are not part of character rendering.
17:04:05 [nigel]
Nigel: What about textShadow?
17:04:45 [nigel]
Pierre: All styles... (checking)
17:04:56 [nigel]
Nigel: ยง10.5 explicit lists a bunch of style attributes.
17:05:08 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes I was afraid of that, the issue needs to include updating that list. I will do that.
17:05:54 [nigel]
Nigel: If you add those do you need to retest and change the threshold values?
17:06:13 [nigel]
Pierre: No just keep it simple and just add the new styling attributes.
17:06:40 [nigel]
Nigel: That's good because an IMSC1 document with additional styling applied will still
17:06:53 [nigel]
.. play in an IMSC1.1 processor, which might in turn have to be slightly higher performance.
17:08:06 [nigel]
.. In terms of the issue you're saying that the complexity level is just related to the spec
17:08:08 [nigel]
.. version.
17:08:20 [nigel]
Pierre: Yes the profile defines the HRM that applies.
17:08:26 [nigel]
Nigel: OK I can live with that.
17:08:42 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: WG resolves to close this issue.
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github-bot, end topic
17:08:59 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
17:09:24 [nigel]
Pierre: Regrets from me for next week most likely.
17:10:01 [nigel]
.. Aside from this ttml1 fontSize issue I think we should be able to go to CR.
17:10:11 [nigel]
.. For IMSC 1.0.1 I will work on preparing the PR.
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.. For IMSC 1.1 we are essentially blocked by TTML2.
17:10:44 [nigel]
Nigel: For TTML2 there has been some progress this week; there is still a lot to do.
17:10:59 [nigel]
.. We effectively have around 5 days to close off the remaining issues, otherwise I will
17:11:17 [nigel]
.. propose to defer everything else that is open so that we can proceed with CR mid-Feb.
17:16:59 [nigel]
.. It would be useful for everyone who considers currently open issues to be blockers to
17:17:36 [nigel]
.. resolving to transition to label them as such so that the Editors and the rest of the WG
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.. are aware and can prioritise fixing them.
17:19:43 [nigel]
.. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]
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s/.. new issues on IMSC in IMSC 1.1 unless they're fatal./Pierre: new issues on IMSC in IMSC 1.1 unless they're fatal.
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