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16:51:15 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:51:15 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
16:51:15 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
16:51:15 <ivan> Date: 2018-01-08
16:51:15 <ivan> Regrets+ Rachel
16:51:15 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jan/0000.html
16:51:15 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-01-08: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jan/0000.html
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17:00:59 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
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17:01:39 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
17:01:40 <rdeltour> present+
17:01:49 <dauwhe> topic: MLK day
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17:02:03 <dauwhe> tzviya: many offices are closed next Monday
17:02:08 <dauwhe> ... should we meet?
17:02:19 <ivan> present+ george
17:02:20 <NickRuffilo> present+
17:02:25 <tzviya> present+ laura_brady
17:02:28 <bigbluehat> present+
17:02:32 <JunGamo> present+
17:02:49 <dkaplan3> -1
17:02:51 <dauwhe> -1
17:02:53 <Vlad> Tzviya should have her rightfully deserved holiday, -1
17:02:53 <NickRuffilo> +1 (for MLK being awesome, and me being around)
17:02:53 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
17:02:54 <pkra> +1
17:02:54 <wolfgang> +1
17:02:55 <laudrain> +1
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17:02:58 <jbuehler> -1
17:02:59 <cmaden2> +1
17:03:03 <ivan> 0
17:03:04 <ivan> +1
17:03:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> -1
17:03:04 <mattg> 0
17:03:05 <bigbluehat> -1
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17:03:06 <EvanOwens> -1
17:03:06 <Avneesh> -1 not available next week
17:03:06 <tzviya> 0
17:03:12 <josh> -1
17:03:14 <laurab_> 0
17:03:18 <rdeltour> 0
17:03:19 <timCole> -1
17:03:27 <HeatherF> +1
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17:03:48 <George> present+ George
17:03:54 <mateus> present+
17:03:55 <dauwhe> dauwhe: I would propose we cancel
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17:04:02 <George> cannot join on 15 -1
17:04:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: I think I'm with dauwhe
17:04:10 <dauwhe> RESOLVED: no meeting next week
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17:04:22 <BenSchroeter> present+
17:04:37 <josh> present+
17:04:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a new member this week, Laura Brady
17:05:03 <ivan> q+
17:05:04 <dauwhe> laurab_: I'm laura brady, I'm an ebook developer from the toronto area
17:05:04 <pkra> woohoo! Welcome Laura!
17:05:08 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:05:12 <dauwhe> ivan: welcome laura
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17:05:22 <laurentlemeur> present+ laurent
17:05:28 <dauwhe> ... can you send me the email from the system on the invited expert submission?
17:05:49 <ivan> Topic: minutes of last meeting
17:05:50 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2017/2017-12-18-minutes
17:05:52 <dauwhe> Topic: minutes from last meeting
17:05:57 <dauwhe> tzviya: any comments?
17:06:02 <dauwhe> Resolved: minutes approved
17:06:24 <dauwhe> tzviya: congratulations! we have published three FPWDs
17:06:33 <dauwhe> ... and publishing generates more work
17:06:34 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/01/publishing-wg-publishes-3-fpwds/
17:06:44 <dauwhe> ... as you know, these are shell documents :)
17:06:51 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone for their hard work
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17:07:04 <dauwhe> Topics: prototypes, implementations, etc
17:07:09 <dauwhe> s/Topics/Topic/
17:07:17 <dauwhe> ... Hadrien was working on some examples
17:07:35 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118
17:07:40 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/119
17:07:44 <ivan> present+ Hadrien
17:07:54 <dauwhe> Hadrien: the idea is, now that we have an idea of the infoset for WP
17:08:01 <dauwhe> ... I've been looking in two directions
17:08:05 <dauwhe> ... one is web app manifest
17:08:25 <dauwhe> ... and I've been looking at what it does, and where we can reuse elements
17:08:36 <dauwhe> ... and I've looked at how we can extend WAM to cover our infoset
17:08:46 <dauwhe> ... we need to express each thing listed in our infoset
17:09:01 <dauwhe> ... I think there's very little in WAM that can be used
17:09:14 <dauwhe> ... I was mostly inventing new elements using conventions of WAM
17:09:21 <dauwhe> ... that's the first experiment
17:09:28 <dauwhe> ... the second thing is more of a comparison
17:09:44 <dauwhe> ... in the readium community, we've created the web publication manifest for use in readium
17:10:04 <dauwhe> ... and so I've created a doc comparing the w3c infoset with the readium web pub manifest
17:10:19 <dauwhe> ... and almost everything in the infoset is already in the RWPM
17:10:31 <dauwhe> ... and the rest can be done with link relations
17:10:43 <dauwhe> ... in the case of WAM, I also created two examples
17:10:54 <dauwhe> ... one is a full example
17:10:57 <tzviya> q?
17:10:59 <dauwhe> ... one is a minimal example
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17:11:11 <bigbluehat> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118
17:11:14 <dauwhe> ivan: can you put links for these examples into the minutes?
17:11:23 <dauwhe> Hadrien: tzviya listed both issues
17:11:23 <bigbluehat> s/https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118//
17:11:44 <dauwhe> note WAM = web application manifest, hard to type a lot
17:12:04 <dauwhe> Hadrien: that's a quick summary; I'm happy to go into more details
17:12:10 <tzviya> q?
17:12:15 <ivan> q+
17:12:16 <dauwhe> RWPM = Readium Web Publication Manifest
17:12:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: comments?
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17:12:21 <tzviya> ack iv
17:12:30 <duga> present+
17:12:37 <dauwhe> ivan: thanks for doing that
17:12:57 <dauwhe> ... I'm not surprised that many of the elements are not defined by WAM
17:13:11 <dauwhe> ... the way I understand WAM, the syntax part is the secondary and easy part
17:13:27 <dauwhe> ... the core of it is the lifecycle, security, etc, stuff defined around the json
17:13:43 <dauwhe> ... just the serialization, then I don't care much about WAM but there are other things
17:14:04 <dauwhe> ... whether they are useful or not depends on what would be the implementation strategy of WP in a browser
17:14:13 <dauwhe> ... have you looked into that?
17:14:31 <dauwhe> Hadrien: part of processing of manifest is tied to syntax, like rules for things that are missing
17:14:39 <dauwhe> ... this is important for title and language
17:15:10 <dauwhe> ... for all the other infoset elements, we'd have to define the life cycle ourselves
17:15:18 <dauwhe> q+
17:15:31 <dauwhe> Hadrien: there are at least seven missing elements
17:15:32 <bigbluehat> q+
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17:15:40 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we'd get a lot
17:15:40 <rdeltour> q+
17:15:50 <dauwhe> Hadrien: for the second part
17:16:03 <dauwhe> (missing audio)
17:16:31 <dauwhe> Hadrien: which is more related to UX, that's not something I addressed
17:16:45 <dauwhe> ... but there have been discussions started by baldur and benjamin
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17:16:56 <garth> present+ Garth
17:16:58 <dauwhe> ... i think we have quite different expectations of how things are implemented
17:17:11 <dauwhe> ... WAM is implemented through a triggered installation
17:17:18 <dauwhe> ... added to a list of apps
17:17:25 <dauwhe> ... I think that's different from what we're looking for
17:17:41 <dauwhe> ... I think what we're looking for is closer to an enhanced reader mode
17:17:55 <dauwhe> ... so we're providing a manifest to enhance reader mode
17:18:05 <dauwhe> ... they don't have prev/next, offline, etc
17:18:16 <dauwhe> ... I think we're more closely related to reader mode than web app installs
17:18:27 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:19:09 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:19:12 <garth> q?
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17:19:17 <dauwhe> dauwhe: WAM has much more than jsut the processing of the members
17:19:25 <dauwhe> ... including creating browser contexts etc
17:19:38 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: dave stole my thunder :)
17:19:51 <wolfgang> s /jsut/just/
17:19:56 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot of WAM processing focused on installation on a home screen, and is unrelated to what we want to do
17:20:09 <dauwhe> ... and the guy who wrote WAM said it wasn't the same thing at all
17:20:22 <dauwhe> ... so it's not the right vehicle for us
17:20:33 <tzviya> ack rdeltour
17:20:35 <dauwhe> ... and Hadrien's experiments confirmed that, so we should mosey on to a different format
17:20:59 <dauwhe> rdeltour: i have a comment and Q
17:21:10 <dauwhe> ... comment is the counter-argument to benjamin
17:21:23 <bigbluehat> q+
17:21:25 <dauwhe> ... installing a web app on a mobile screen is not far from installing a publication in a library
17:21:44 <dauwhe> ... launching an app within its own browser chrome is simiilar to opening a pub in reading mode
17:21:53 <dauwhe> ... so I think it's too early to reject WAM
17:22:03 <dauwhe> ... my Q is for hadrien
17:22:05 <wolfgang> s/simiilar/similar/
17:22:27 <dauwhe> ... based on my limited knowledge, one of the key features of RWPM, is that it has a model based on collections and links, which is extensible
17:22:30 <timCole> q+
17:22:50 <dauwhe> ... if you were to extend WAM with this link and collections model, would then WAM be that different from the readium manifest?
17:23:01 <dauwhe> Hadrien: in terms of design, the two manifests are very different
17:23:19 <dauwhe> ... WAM is not designed to truly exstensible, or even have a link element
17:23:35 <dauwhe> ... RWPM is designed to be compatible with EPUB 2 and 3 infosets
17:23:48 <dauwhe> ... and provide a lossless conversion from OPF
17:23:56 <wolfgang> s/exstensible/extensible/
17:24:07 <dauwhe> ... about extending WAM, you're right that for some of those things, we could make it more hypermedia friendly
17:24:14 <dauwhe> ... but I don't think that's true for all of them
17:24:25 <dauwhe> ... I've tried to reuse what we've learned from readium
17:24:36 <dauwhe> ... the current principles are not compatible with WAM
17:24:44 <dauwhe> ... so a partial yes to your last question
17:25:00 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
17:25:03 <ivan> q?
17:25:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a long agenda, but let's move this conversation online after we clear the queue
17:25:26 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: WAM dictates installation--it's whole purpose is to install a stripped down browser for a web app
17:25:36 <dauwhe> ... but there's no reason to install if you don't need that
17:25:53 <ivan> q+
17:26:02 <dauwhe> ... and if you want reading order, but not at install time, then you shouldn't use it
17:26:15 <tzviya> ack timCole
17:26:16 <dauwhe> ... so it's probably not the right place for that
17:26:27 <dauwhe> timCole: this suggests we're talking about apples and oranges
17:26:38 <dauwhe> ... the infoset talks about the object that's being read
17:26:48 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't provide help for a generic browser
17:26:54 <dauwhe> ... for that you need an installable application
17:27:13 <dauwhe> ... 2 sep. things: what's the minimum the browser needs to do for us for a reading object
17:27:21 <dauwhe> ... merging these things is problematic
17:27:26 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:27:32 <dauwhe> ivan: timCole was a bit quicker as usual :)
17:27:42 <dauwhe> ... what we need before making a decision:
17:27:56 <dauwhe> ... we need a general idea (or experimentation) on how this would be implemented in a browser
17:28:09 <dauwhe> ... the reader mode that Hadrien referred to is a good example
17:28:20 <dauwhe> ... but we need to have more feeling about what an implemenation would be
17:28:31 <dauwhe> ... and we need to know that before we accept or reject WAM
17:28:48 <dauwhe> ... there is a different attempt to do manifest in the web payment WG
17:28:57 <dauwhe> ... where they have to implement in browsers
17:29:03 <dauwhe> ... and they have a json thing
17:29:17 <dauwhe> ... in that manifest they have an entry to refer to possible web app manifest
17:29:22 <Hadrien> q+
17:29:31 <dauwhe> ... in case web payments are implemented by a web application
17:29:44 <dauwhe> ... so the implementation can work either way
17:29:51 <dauwhe> ... we could invite the staff contact to talk to us
17:30:03 <pkra> sorry, I have to drop off early.
17:30:04 <dauwhe> ... web app as reference rather than creating an extension
17:30:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: next agenda item is implementation
17:30:33 <dauwhe> ... we have google play, kobo, other people from readium
17:30:50 <dauwhe> ... we would like to see people take the spec as it is now, and work on implementation
17:31:07 <dauwhe> ... without seeing the impelemenations, we can't know if WAM is right for us
17:31:30 <dauwhe> ... we've seen some toy reading systems from bigbluehat and dauwhe
17:31:30 <wolfgang> s/impelementations/implementations/
17:31:36 <ivan> regrets+ jasmine
17:31:43 <dauwhe> ... SUP has an implementation
17:31:52 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
17:32:07 <dauwhe> Hadrien: in the case of readium, for RWPM we have many implementations
17:32:11 <josh> q+
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17:32:16 <dauwhe> ... epub.js has been using this
17:32:33 <dauwhe> ... in readium 2 we have something on andriod, ios, windows, linux, macos
17:32:44 <dauwhe> ... in our case we use that for EPUB, too
17:32:51 <dauwhe> ... we turn epub into wp locally
17:32:59 <dauwhe> ... then we display in the navigator
17:33:04 <ivan> q+
17:33:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> Do we need one of these meetings to be devoted to an in depth show-and-tell on Readium-2?
17:33:39 <tzviya> ack josh
17:34:03 <ivan> present+ josh
17:34:05 <dauwhe> josh: I've been instructed to make atypon resources available to test this
17:34:12 <dauwhe> ... our system is based on readium
17:34:23 <dauwhe> ... I'm volunteering :)
17:34:31 <dauwhe> tzviya: we need to see non-readium implementations
17:34:40 <NickRuffilo> q+
17:34:49 <dauwhe> Hadrien: epub.js is not readium
17:35:02 <dauwhe> ... nypl has built something that wasn't readium
17:35:08 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:35:17 <dauwhe> ivan: for me the big question is
17:35:26 <dauwhe> ... do they do offlining?
17:35:29 <dauwhe> ... in a browser?
17:35:52 <dauwhe> Hadrien: some are web apps, some are native apps using webviews
17:35:55 <dauwhe> q+
17:36:18 <dauwhe> ivan: I mean, its like epub.js, part of my browser but then works offline
17:36:28 <dauwhe> Hadrien: in the case of NYPL prototype
17:36:32 <rkwright> present +
17:36:49 <dauwhe> ... it does support offline access, using appcache in ios and SW in android (?)
17:37:03 <dauwhe> ... offline support is tricky
17:37:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're fully aware
17:37:24 <dauwhe> ivan: having all this documented would be great
17:37:26 <mateus> Norton has an independent platform as well, and the Norton Lab is interested in testing early implementations--we talked a little about this at TPAC. I can't commit to anything without looking into our plans for the coming months, but I hope to contribute at least on a personal level, even if it needs to be a side project.
17:37:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's document the implementations
17:37:41 <tzviya> ack NickRuffilo
17:37:47 <dkaplan3> nicely done
17:37:57 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: how in depth does the test need to be
17:38:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: we're not testing
17:38:25 <dauwhe> ... we're not defining full mechanisms, just showing it could function
17:38:56 <dauwhe> NickRuffilo: so if i had a manifest and a browser that displayed something?
17:39:09 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, we need framework of what kind of things have to be done for an implementation
17:39:14 <Hadrien> q+
17:39:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: we might do a conglomerate
17:39:43 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
17:39:45 <dauwhe> ... Hadrien will contact people who work with readium, Mateus will pull stuff together
17:40:33 <dauwhe> dauwhe: we've been talking about internal formats for reading systems, which might not be the same thing as an authoring format for publishers
17:40:42 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
17:40:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's put that on the agenda for next week(ish)
17:40:59 <dauwhe> Hadrien: producing implementations of offline reading is not testing anything about a format
17:41:08 <dauwhe> ... these are unrelated to syntax or manifests
17:41:23 <dauwhe> ... the only thing we test are each browser's or OS ability to support various web features
17:41:33 <ivan> q+
17:41:40 <tzviya> ack iv
17:41:50 <dauwhe> ivan: yes and no, i understand what you say
17:42:11 <dauwhe> ... my understanding is that current wam is very closely entertwined with service workers
17:42:26 <dauwhe> ... i don't know how much of that is a general thing
17:42:43 <dauwhe> ... and I don't know if service workers will be the alpha and omega of implemenations
17:42:57 <dauwhe> ... it doesn't tell us the syntax, but it does tell us whether WAM as a whole is useful
17:43:00 <dauwhe> q?
17:43:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: we still need a testing champion
17:43:39 <ivan> Topic: testing champion
17:43:50 <dauwhe> ... we have people who've volunteered to do specific tasks
17:44:01 <dauwhe> ... for example, Avneesh is our a11y champion
17:44:16 <dauwhe> ... we've had lots of new members since we last called for a testing champion
17:44:28 <dauwhe> ... we'll buy you a hat!
17:44:41 <dauwhe> ... we won't have a spec without testing
17:44:49 <cmaden2> I could do the testing champion thing.
17:45:01 <dauwhe> Zakim, pick a testing champion
17:45:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick a testing champion', dauwhe
17:45:14 <dauwhe> cmaden2: I volunteer
17:45:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: we also need work on security and privacy, Bill_Kasdorf may know someone at Atypon
17:46:10 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: one obstacle is that he is in Tokyo
17:46:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have an evening call with australia sometime
17:46:44 <dauwhe> ... anyone want to step up for privacy?
17:47:02 <dauwhe> ... once we have security we'll see if privacy can be part of the same champion
17:47:12 <dauwhe> Topic: packaging mechanism
17:47:22 <dauwhe> tzviya: there was a hole in the spec
17:47:36 <dauwhe> ... ivan or garth, what should we do at this point? list options? remind people?
17:47:38 <duga> Garth stepped out, so up to Ivan
17:48:32 <dauwhe> ivan: the only thing that we may want to do, we can volunteer garth to find out about JYasskin
17:48:44 <dauwhe> ... and the google web packaging proposal
17:48:54 <dauwhe> ... there was talk of meetings with IETF
17:49:14 <dauwhe> ... we need to know if this is an option at all
17:49:50 <dauwhe> garth: check in with jeffrey to get status? I can do that.
17:50:01 <dauwhe> Topic: general outreach
17:50:18 <dauwhe> tzviya:  we have lots of drafts, we need feedback
17:50:22 <dauwhe> ... i'll reach out to TAG
17:50:32 <dauwhe> ... we want feedback from Readium
17:50:41 <ivan> q+
17:50:47 <Hadrien> q+
17:50:56 <dauwhe> ... we need to know if this can be implemented in browsers, with existing reading systems, what does amazon think?
17:51:01 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:51:23 <dauwhe> ivan: the 2 most important targets are to talk to the EPUB people at Edge
17:51:25 <jyasskin> dauwhe/garth: I have half of the packaging proposal in https://wicg.github.io/webpackage/draft-yasskin-http-origin-signed-responses.html, and I may be able to convince the IETF HTTP WG to "adopt" it in March. That's not the part you care most about. The bundling part, which you'll care about more, is a WIP in https://jyasskin.github.io/webpackage/bundles/draft-yasskin-dispatch-bundled-exchanges.html.
17:51:52 <dauwhe> ... and talk to the chrome team
17:52:05 <dauwhe> ... I don't think we can influence apple
17:52:16 <dauwhe> ... and I don't know how to reach out to mozilla
17:52:35 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
17:52:37 <dauwhe> ... if you have contacts, use them
17:52:42 <dauwhe> Hadrien: quick feedback
17:52:49 <dauwhe> ... even for an org like readium
17:52:54 <dauwhe> ... the offline part is tricky
17:53:09 <dauwhe> ... it's not obvious at all that we can have offline for WP on a number of platforms
17:53:47 <dauwhe> ... I agree we should reach out to browsers, but maybe not just people working on the browsers
17:53:55 <dauwhe> ... the reader modes might be web apps themselves
17:54:02 <dauwhe> ... the easy way in could be the reader modes
17:54:09 <dauwhe> ... chrome is the only one without a reader mode
17:54:17 <dauwhe> ... safari, opera, edge have one
17:54:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: if you have a person to contact invovled in reading mode, we'd love to know
17:54:32 <dauwhe> Hadrien: I don't
17:54:57 <dauwhe> ... Firefox is interesting in long-form reading
17:55:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: marissa had emailed me about the sycnronized media group?
17:55:49 <ivan> present+ marisa
17:55:53 <dauwhe> marisa: we have just proposed and created the "syncronized multimedia for publications" community group
17:56:03 <ivan> q+
17:56:03 <dauwhe> ... I'll send a link to our list
17:56:22 <dauwhe> ... and I'm hoping people will join over the next few weeks and then start work
17:56:30 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-pub/
17:56:48 <dauwhe> ivan: marisa, one practical thing that I've cleared with the powers that be, I can set up a webex channel for you
17:56:50 <dauwhe> marisa: thanks!
17:56:54 <Karen> Karen has joined #pwg
17:57:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: last item on agenda, before the holidays we asked for feedback from newer members of the group
17:57:30 <dauwhe> ... so we're going to have a newer member meeting
17:57:51 <dauwhe> ... sometime in january. I'll send out an email to the group.
17:57:54 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
17:58:05 <dauwhe> ... the first item will be rewriting the guide for newcomers
17:58:13 <dauwhe> ... as we know it's hard to dive in
17:58:15 <tzviya> q?
17:58:18 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:58:19 <dauwhe> ... any other business?
17:58:31 <dauwhe> garth: are we skipping next monday?
17:58:33 <dauwhe> tzviya: yes
17:58:34 <ivan> q-
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17:58:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: we will meet again on January 22.
17:58:57 <dauwhe> ... good luck with your implementations
17:59:01 <dauwhe> ivan: email is up and running
17:59:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: github is there, too :)
17:59:19 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pwg
17:59:20 <dauwhe> ... and lots of people here can help with github
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18:01:44 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/01/08-pwg-minutes.html ivan
18:02:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:02:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/01/08-pwg-minutes.html ivan