21:01:49 RRSAgent has joined #spatnav 21:01:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc 21:01:54 RRSAgent, makes logs public 21:01:54 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs public', tidoust. Try /msg RRSAgent help 21:02:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 21:02:10 florian_ has joined #spatnav 21:02:17 Meeting: Spatial Navigation in the Web breakout session - TPAC 2017 21:02:19 astearns has joined #spatnav 21:02:32 kochi has joined #spatnav 21:02:36 tomalec has joined #spatnav 21:02:39 cpn has joined #spatnav 21:02:46 dbaron has joined #spatnav 21:02:48 Chair: Hyojin, Jihye 21:02:59 Zakim has joined #spatnav 21:03:14 scribe: cpn 21:04:03 topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc 21:04:12 topic spatnav https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc 21:04:39 robdodson has joined #spatnav 21:04:43 jcraig has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc 21:05:52 jcraig has changed the topic to: Spatial Navigation W3C TPAC. Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc 21:06:11 urata has joined #spatnav 21:06:39 hyojin: this is a TV specific issue, but could be broader, for other industries 21:06:41 IanPouncey has joined #spatnav 21:07:07 ... smart TV has a great screen, but i'd like to focus on input devices 21:07:25 ... desktop and mobile have touch, keyboard, mouse interface 21:07:39 ... i'll demo now the LG remote control works 21:08:02 [shows video] 21:08:26 LG remote controll video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoxYO9DslkA 21:08:44 s/demo now/demo how/ 21:09:58 hyojin: you can see the moving pointer, and other option keys on the remote control 21:10:32 ... with this remote control, you can use commands such as pointing as well as voice and gesture 21:10:43 ... as well as remote control by mobile 21:10:49 ... android TV is pushing this method 21:11:19 ... we need well defined specifications to enable the 5-way buttons (arrows and OK button) 21:11:41 ... we want to propose an extension of the web for spatial navigation 21:12:05 ... there are many web based TV platforms, eg opera TV, tizen TV 21:12:10 ... they have the same issues 21:12:11 igarashi has joined #spatnav 21:12:22 +Tatsuya_Igarashi 21:12:37 ... we made a web framework for spatial navigation features, that we'd like to standardise for web engine support 21:13:08 ... native platforms have considered spatial navigation (android TV and apple TV), but it's not supported on the web as of now 21:13:26 ... i'm talking about the TV industry but other devices could be considered 21:13:43 ... eg, desktop with keyboard for accessibility 21:13:49 bkardell_ has joined #spatnav 21:14:02 ... TV/STB and IVI 21:14:24 ... also game console using gamepads 21:14:24 dtapuska has joined #spatnav 21:14:42 ... on the desktop, we use the tab key for navigation, but it's hard to use the 4-way navigation as of now 21:14:59 ... i hope to see the web embrace spatial navigation 21:15:31 ... considering arrow key support on the web, they move the cursor between selected input items 21:15:40 ... normally, the arrow keys are used for scrolling 21:16:11 ... spatial navigation means using the arrow keys for moving focus. 21:16:20 ... how can spatial navigation be used for this on the web? 21:16:27 MikeSmith has joined #spatnav 21:16:30 ... it's already supported in chrome, behind a flag 21:17:27 https://lgeweb.github.io/spatial-navigation/demo/heuristic/heuristic_testcases.html 21:18:01 jihye: this doesn't use any javascript apis for navigation 21:18:19 ... the movement is quite nice, but doesn't cover all cases 21:18:30 Spatial Navigation Overview: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation 21:18:36 [demo of some controls that are unreachable] 21:18:59 ... eg, a scroll element that can't be reached 21:19:48 ... web pages on TV look like this: content with side bar menus, sometimes a long scrolling list 21:19:55 ... spatial navigation can cover these cases 21:20:15 ... we have two ways: combining with arrow key behaviour, and the touch screen algorithm 21:20:48 Louay has joined #spatnav 21:20:48 sangwhan has joined #spatnav 21:20:58 Present+ Louay_Bassbouss 21:21:05 Present+ Sangwhan 21:21:13 ... with the heuristic spatial navigation, the arrow keys move between text elements 21:21:24 RRSAgent, draft minutes 21:21:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html sangwhan 21:21:26 ... sometimes the user wants to go to the next element without moving the cursor 21:21:46 ... the heuristic spatial navigation moves the scroll bar of the scrollable area first 21:21:57 ... the focus is moved when the element comes into view 21:22:18 ... some users want to customise the navigation algorithm 21:22:50 ... we want something easy to define for developers and users in CSS and JS 21:23:06 ... it will make it easier to develop apps using spatial navigation 21:23:17 .. we provide ways to override the heuristic spatial navigation 21:23:34 https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/blob/master/explainer.md 21:23:35 ... our github repo has an explainer page 21:23:55 ... we provide 3 spatial navigation algorithms 21:24:04 ... projection, direction, and nearest 21:25:36 [explanation of the three approaches] 21:25:59 ... we also provide focus looping, which can be applied to long lists in the scrollable area 21:26:24 ... the heuristic spatial navigation doesn't support this right now 21:26:48 ... it's useful for long scrolling pages, avoids the need to press the arrow keys a lot 21:27:17 [demo using the proposed API] 21:27:37 Timetable demo: https://lgeweb.github.io/spatial-navigation/demo/ 21:27:42 IanPouncey has joined #spatnav 21:29:16 direction option uses shorted distance 21:29:37 s/direction/... direction/ 21:29:59 ... when the focus is at the end of the page, it won't move any more 21:30:15 ... if you enable focus looping, it will return to the top of the page 21:30:32 ... pressing the up arrow key at the top of the page goes to the bottom of the page 21:31:36 [discussion of what the default behaviour is] 21:32:02 From the explainer doc: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/blob/master/explainer.md 21:32:15 arrow-key-behavior: auto | navigation | scroll 21:32:18 florian: opera used to have this, but no longer since they moved to blink 21:33:06 dtapuska: would like to see this specified 21:33:19 q+ to mention FireFox caret move default behavior, with matches the Safari behavior if Accessibility is enabled. 21:33:48 florian: we used to have as-smart-as-possible heuristics, lots of edge cases, so sometimes the author needs to control it 21:34:04 default Safari behavior seens to match the intention (If I understand the spec correctly) of the value for ‘scroll’ 21:34:08 ... this works for a small page with few elements 21:34:34 ... maybe we want to remove heuristics entirely 21:35:12 ... dtapuska: i'd like to see an algorithm come out that we can agree on 21:35:32 florian: not sure it will be possible to agree it 21:35:51 sangwhan: the spec should define algorithm, but could be updated with smarter algorithms later 21:36:34 ack jcraig 21:36:34 jcraig, you wanted to mention FireFox caret move default behavior, with matches the Safari behavior if Accessibility is enabled. 21:36:34 dtapuska: auto mode is up to the browser, but each vendor could do different things, so no interoperability 21:37:21 jcraig: as an example of algorithms that can be updated, the WCAG has a color contrast algorithm that works in 99% of places, but sometimes perceived contrast differs 21:37:24 ack me 21:38:01 jcraig: looking at the explainer doc, something not covered in arrow key behaviour, i think firefox by default is caret position 21:38:47 ... there need to be a few more properties, and these need to allow for the user context, and allow the user to control 21:39:13 In Firefox, Shift+arrows certainly moves caret position/selection; I haven't seen unshifted arrows do that. 21:39:14 ... another thing is containerization of grouping, eg, tab navigation within a group, then go to spatial navigation 21:39:34 (but I'm not particularly knowledgable there) 21:40:10 jihye: we are trying to solve spatial navigation applied to grouped elements, but at the moment it's for the whole page. we're figuring it out 21:40:18 ... we'd like to discuss via github issues 21:40:28 github issues: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/issues 21:41:04 ... remaining issues there: how to enable spatial navigation features, how to trigger the spatial navigation rule, and one-side axis considered nav-loop 21:41:31 melanierichards has joined #spatnav 21:41:41 hyojin: we can write a design document to describe the heuristic, but how can we make progress on that? 21:42:00 florian: this seemed to be a CSS topic, so we brought it up there 21:42:11 ... but it's broader than that, need input from components people 21:42:43 ... defining the rules, follow the extensible web approach 21:42:56 ... how to treat events? event ordering, preventDefault, etc 21:43:21 q+ to suggest js polyfill (arrow key interception) to try out in any browser 21:43:21 ... we need a group with overlapping skills: components, CSS, JS, a11y 21:43:31 IanPouncey has joined #spatnav 21:43:54 ... we are in the CSS WG, we're getting the spec into WICG, build a community 21:44:00 jcraig, you wanted to suggest js polyfill (arrow key interception) to try out in any browser 21:44:02 Ditto on jcraig's suggestion, would allow iterating over different algorithms cheaply 21:44:09 ... then we can go to the various WGs 21:44:39 ... related work in CSS is override, stale for a while. it's in Presto, the old opera engine 21:45:03 ... spatial navigation is in blink, HbbTV require it, so its in TVs in Europe 21:45:04 ack jcraig 21:45:08 q+ use cases differ between devices 21:45:17 q+ to discuss use cases differing between devices 21:45:19 jcraig: it would be useful to try a JS polyfill 21:45:43 q? 21:45:57 ... could be a quick way to try things out, specifically about the examples demoed earlier 21:46:05 are there links to the polyfills somewhere? 21:46:20 ack aboxhall 21:46:20 aboxhall, you wanted to discuss use cases differing between devices 21:46:41 aboxhall: depending on the device. for a TV you want everything to be spatial, eg using a d-pad 21:46:56 q+ to discuss user expectation 21:47:12 q? 21:47:19 q+ 21:47:22 ack IanPouncey 21:47:22 IanPouncey, you wanted to discuss user expectation 21:47:23 ack ia 21:47:24 ... on desktop, the idea of containers come into play, using tab key with spatial navigation 21:47:26 q+ 21:48:02 IanPouncey: with the different navigation methods, how do we express to users what will happen. the defaults are easy to get used to 21:48:34 ... but when this may change based on author settings, behaviour may be unexpected 21:48:43 tomalec has joined #spatnav 21:48:51 q? 21:49:27 ... bkardell: in CSS WG we talked about moving this to WICG, and other related concerns 21:49:41 ... what should the scope of this include at WICG? 21:49:57 ... eg, is focus an appropriate part of this? 21:50:18 ack bkardell_ 21:50:18 aboxhall: focus ring and intert are distinct from this but adjacent 21:50:27 IanPouncey_ has joined #spatnav 21:50:34 q+ to ask if linear navigation modes have been considered… e.g. menu (vertical), tab list (horizontal), grid (vert+horiz), and 9-key (5-key plus diagonals) 21:50:35 ... should we have a group looking at all of this in one place 21:50:54 bkardell: that may slow us down 21:51:12 florian: it may actually speed us up 21:51:43 q+ to say, e.g. If I tab into a vertical menu, up/down is intercepted, but other keys are ignored. 21:51:55 tantek has joined #spatnav 21:51:57 [ florian calls for support ] 21:52:08 present+ 21:52:14 florian: we're discussing this in WICG at 1pm 21:52:19 q- 21:52:27 ack me 21:52:27 jcraig, you wanted to ask if linear navigation modes have been considered… e.g. menu (vertical), tab list (horizontal), grid (vert+horiz), and 9-key (5-key plus diagonals) and to 21:52:30 ... say, e.g. If I tab into a vertical menu, up/down is intercepted, but other keys are ignored. 21:53:16 jcraig: tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, in CSS WG we discussed roaming tab index 21:53:43 ... this would be useful from a a11y point of view to implement in a small containerised package 21:54:04 The ARIA design patterns would be good to mine for use cases for this ^^ 21:54:23 https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#aria_ex 21:54:27 ... eg tabbing into a menu or grid, maybe able to easily specify elements of the spatial navigation to recognise 21:54:59 "roving tabindex", which jcraig mentioned, explained: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/Keyboard-navigable_JavaScript_widgets#Technique_1_Roving_tabindex 21:55:21 fremy: screen readers override the arrow keys 21:55:44 ... a couple of questions: why do we need the arrow keys by default, and why not solve at the a11y and screen reader level? 21:55:51 q+ 21:56:26 johnfoliot: what about scrollable pages without many focusable elements? 21:57:10 tantek: webtv implemented that. if there are focusable elements close by, it goes to those. if not, it scrolls 21:57:43 johnfoliot: screen reader users may want to focus on a region that's not tab focusable 21:57:43 s/tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, in CSS WG we discussed roaming tab index/tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, single-level menus are usually vertical only… Please consider subsets of “spatial nav” such as vertical-only, horizontal-only… 5-key, 9-key, etc./ 21:58:29 +1 to johnfoliot's points 21:58:30 florian: it probably couldn't be enabled by default for arrow keys 21:58:51 ... for desktop browsers, most don't support but not for arrow keys, only shift-arrow combos 21:59:22 ... another approach: declare at the page level that it uses spatial navigation 21:59:31 ... may be useful to have a switch 22:00:00 hyojin: thank you for your comments, we can continue the discussion 22:00:18 jihye: we'll be at the WICG meeting, starting at 1:30pm. please join us 22:00:24 ... thank you for coming 22:00:26 [adjourned] 22:01:09 IanPouncey has left #spatnav 22:09:14 jcraig has joined #spatnav 22:12:52 rrsagent make minutes 22:13:10 astearns has left #spatnav 22:14:36 rrsagent, make minutes 22:14:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig 22:14:37 tantek has joined #spatnav 22:15:12 s/topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc// 22:15:27 s/topic spatnav https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc// 22:15:34 rrsagent, make minutes 22:15:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig 22:17:11 s/topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc\// 22:17:19 rrsagent, make minutes 22:17:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig 22:18:52 tomalec has joined #spatnav 22:29:20 dbaron has left #spatnav 23:24:05 tidoust has joined #spatnav 23:24:41 tidoust has left #spatnav 23:39:00 jcraig has joined #spatnav 00:01:58 Zakim has left #spatnav 00:13:27 tantek has joined #spatnav 00:21:56 jcraig has joined #spatnav